58 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

Quote

Jerry Crasnick @jcrasnick 2 mins


Kelly Shoppach has agreed on 1-yr, $1.35M deal with #RedSox, says BB source. Will be announced today

https://twitter.com/#!/jcrasnick

So long Jason.

[pedro1918]

Lavarnway? I guess they don't see him as a legit MLB catcher.

Edited by pedro1918, 13 December 2011 - 10:39 AM.

[bgo544]

pedro1918, on 13 December 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:

Lavarnway? I guess they don't see him as a legit MLB catcher.

Or, they want him to get more time at Pawtucket to work on his D.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Foulkey Reese, on 13 December 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

https://twitter.com/#!/jcrasnick

So long Jason.

Shoppach has been awful with the bat for the Rays the last two years. OPS of 650 in 2010 (187 PA) and 607 in 2011 (253 PA). Varitek has never had a season that bad. Is his defense THAT much better as a backup to make up the difference. Not sure what the thinking is here. Maybe Tek wants to retire?

Edit: Clearly they don't think Lavarnway is ready defensively.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 13 December 2011 - 10:44 AM.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

I assume this makes Lavarnway trade bait and I would think he's relatively valuable as such. Too bad, because without looking at numbers my feeling is that Lavarnway's a better hitter with a lot more upside on offense than Shoppach.

My problem with Varitek over the years has been his complete inability to throw the ball to second base. His failure to throw out base stealers was usually blamed on the pitching staff, but the pitching staff and the pitching coaches have turned over many times in Varitek's tenure but he had been consistently useless in slowing down a running game. So while I'm sorry to see Tek go, I'm relieved to think that we now have two catchers wh have at least a fighting chance of gunning down a runner on the basepaths.

[Bowlerman9]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Shoppach has been awful with the bat for the Rays the last two years. OPS of 650 in 2010 (187 PA) and 607 in 2011 (253 PA). Varitek has never had a season that bad. Is his defense THAT much better as a backup to make up the difference. Not sure what the thinking is here. Maybe Tek wants to retire?

OPS of 788 and 830 vs lefties the last 2 years.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Shoppach has been awful with the bat for the Rays the last two years. OPS of 650 in 2010 (187 PA) and 607 in 2011 (253 PA). Varitek has never had a season that bad. Is his defense THAT much better as a backup to make up the difference. Not sure what the thinking is here. Maybe Tek wants to retire?

Or maybe he's just worn out his welcome. Last I heard he still wanted to play.

[The Allented Mr Ripley]

The Sox signed Josh Bard to a $1.7m deal in the offseason before 2009 and released him during spring training, keeping Kottaras on the roster. I think this is an insurance move more than anything, but if it's a portentous signing, Tek clearly has more to worry about than Lavarnway.

Edited by The Allented Mr Ripley, 13 December 2011 - 10:51 AM.

[TomRicardo]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Shoppach has been awful with the bat for the Rays the last two years. OPS of 650 in 2010 (187 PA) and 607 in 2011 (253 PA). Varitek has never had a season that bad. Is his defense THAT much better as a backup to make up the difference. Not sure what the thinking is here. Maybe Tek wants to retire?

Edit: Clearly they don't think Lavarnway is ready defensively.

Stoppach is a lefty masher which platoons well with Salty.

I think they want Lavarnway to get another year working on his defense.

[Rudy Pemberton]

#1 in the league at throwing out base stealers last season (41%), strong vs LH pitchers, has power. Strikes out a ton and can't really hit righties but for a backup catcher you could do a hell of a lot worse. Personally, I think defense at the catching position is far more valuable than offense, esp. for a backup. Pairs well with Salty. I'm not sure it really says anything about Lavarnway, he could still be a useful piece of this roster as a 3rd catcher / 1b / dh. If he's not viewed as a catcher, than his trade value seems pretty minimal anyways.

[Trlicek's Whip]

bgo544, on 13 December 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Or, they want him to get more time at Pawtucket to work on his D.

One year to see his further potential as a catcher - or to confirm his role as a future full-time DH. If Ortiz is still in the mix, it's another reason to figure out Ryan - who can provide platoon insurance when and if they segue Ortiz away from facing LHP.

EDIT: And what Rudy said:

Rudy Pemberton, on 13 December 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

Lavarnway, he could still be a useful piece of this roster as a 3rd catcher / 1b / dh.

Edited by Trlicek's Whip, 13 December 2011 - 10:51 AM.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Bowlerman9, on 13 December 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:

OPS of 788 and 830 vs lefties the last 2 years.

Tek was 748 and 868 vs. lefties the last 2 years. I guess it's the defense.

[Corsi]

Quote

2011:
Shoppach vs LHP: .788 OPS
Salty vs RHP: .786 OPS

2010:
Shoppach vs LHP: .830 OPS
Salty vs RHP: Only 11 AB

2009:

Shoppach vs LHP: 1.045 OPS
Salty vs RHP: .657

Could make a decent platoon if the 2011 numbers stand up.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, on 13 December 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

I assume this makes Lavarnway trade bait and I would think he's relatively valuable as such. Too bad, because without looking at numbers my feeling is that Lavarnway's a better hitter with a lot more upside on offense than Shoppach.

Lavarnway's already a better hitter than Shoppach, and I thought the reviews on his defense weren't that bad during his ML stint last year. It's possible this means that they're going to stash him in AAA to get more defensive experience, but I agree that it more likely means he's trade bait. It may even mean that they already have a deal lined up involving him.

Rudy Pemberton, on 13 December 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

If he's not viewed as a catcher, than his trade value seems pretty minimal anyways.

But this could mean the opposite: it could mean that he *is* viewed as a catcher, and as such, too valuable a player to be a #2 guy to Salty. In which case he'd have strong trade value and now would be a good time to cash him in for pitching.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 13 December 2011 - 10:57 AM.

[TomRicardo]

Savin Hillbilly, on 13 December 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

Lavarnway's already a better hitter than Shoppach, and I thought the reviews on his defense weren't that bad during his ML stint last year. It's possible this means that they're going to stash him in AAA to get more defensive experience, but I agree that it more likely means he's trade bait. It may even mean that they already have a deal lined up involving him.

I don't get why getting a catcher for a one year deal means trade bait. If anything I think that means they are convinced that Lavarnway will be ready within the year and just could use more polish.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Corsi, on 13 December 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

Could make a decent platoon if the 2011 numbers stand up.

The amazing thing to me is that Maddon allowed him to have almost exactly the same number of PA's vs righties as lefties the last two seasons. Lets hope the Sox can use him more strategically and he doesn't wind up as Beckett's personal caddy.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Shoppach threw out 41% of the runners against him last year. Boy howdy that will be a welcome change from Tek's rag arm.

[maufman]

Assuming Saltalamacchia is the starting catcher, the Sox had the following options for Lavarnway:

1. Use him in Boston as a reserve (backup catcher, some DH duty).
2. Use him in Boston, but get him enough DH starts so he's more or less an everyday player.
3. Send him to Pawtucket, at least to start the season.
4. Trade him.

I never thought (1) was a good option, and this move suggests the FO agrees.


Ortiz accepting arbitration eliminated (2) as an option.

That leaves (3) and (4). Given the conventional wisdom about his defense, I think sending Lavarnway to Pawtucket is the right call. That said, you only need one trading partner to make a deal, and if the FO finds someone bullish enough on Lavarnway to part with a cost-controlled SP, that would be irresistible.

[Eric Van]

The Allented Mr Ripley, on 13 December 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Sox signed Josh Bard to a $1.7m deal in the offseason before 2009 and released him during spring training, keeping Kottaras on the roster. I think this is an insurance move more than anything, but if it's a portentous signing, Tek clearly has more to worry about than Lavarnway.

This was exactly my thought. It gives the new manager the flexibility of deciding whether the rookie needs more work on his defense.

I don't, however, see how Lavarnway would be significantly more useful on the bench than Aviles, and you would want that to be a clear upgrade if you were depriving him of any semblance of regular PT.

The other issue is that the 40 man roster is getting awfully full. Sign a closer, and that's 40. If they want to sign another pitcher to an MLB contract, they'd probably have to put Luis Exposito on waivers (dealing Bowden would negate the added pitching depth). Makes you wonder whether the closer or added pitching depth will come from a trade of Anderson, Tejeda, or the like.

[OttoC]

The Allented Mr Ripley, on 13 December 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Sox signed Josh Bard to a $1.7m deal in the offseason before 2009 and released him during spring training, keeping Kottaras on the roster. I think this is an insurance move more than anything, but if it's a portentous signing, Tek clearly has more to worry about than Lavarnway.

If I understand things correctly, the Red Sox could release Shoppach by a certain date and not be responsible for the entire contract. It's an insurance move and perhaps an effort to get Varitek to sign more cheaply.

edit: nevermind

Edited by OttoC, 13 December 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Smiling Joe Hesketh, on 13 December 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Shoppach threw out 41% of the runners against him last year. Boy howdy that will be a welcome change from Tek's rag arm.

And he was downright 'Tekian in 2010.

Shoppach's career CS%
2006 - 37%
2007 - 36%
2008 - 21%
2009 - 23%
2010 - 17%
2011 - 41%

A clear declining trend, until his resurgence last season. Not sure what to make of that.

[lexrageorge]

It's a good move to address a need. If Lavarnway is ready to come up mid-season, then Shoppach is DFA'd at minimal cost. If not, then another season in Pawtucket certainly wouldn't hurt Lavarnway's development.

I'm so done with Varitek, and I'm glad to see the team is as well. Better to move on now than one year too late.

[EddieYost]

OttoC, on 13 December 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

It's an insurance move and perhaps an effort to get Varitek to sign more cheaply.

I hope not. It's time to move on from Tek.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

And he was downright 'Tekian in 2010.

Shoppach's career CS%
2006 - 37%
2007 - 36%
2008 - 21%
2009 - 23%
2010 - 17%
2011 - 41%

A clear declining trend, until his resurgence last season. Not sure what to make of that.

That is odd. Maybe he got used to playing a part-time role in 2011? Nursing an injury previous? Better pickoff moves by the pitchers that kept runners close?

[BosRedSox5]

Red Sox fans have been starving for any kind of baseball related activity for a month and a half... and this is what we get? How sad for us.

I expected bigger things from Shoppach, but he's evolved into a decent backup catcher. He could be useful. Anyway, I'm bored with this offseason, and this weeks news about Beltran or Cuddyer being too expensive for us wasn't offering much optimism.

[RedOctober3829]

Eric Van, on 13 December 2011 - 11:16 AM, said:

This was exactly my thought. It gives the new manager the flexibility of deciding whether the rookie needs more work on his defense.

I don't, however, see how Lavarnway would be significantly more useful on the bench than Aviles, and you would want that to be a clear upgrade if you were depriving him of any semblance of regular PT.

The other issue is that the 40 man roster is getting awfully full. Sign a closer, and that's 40. If they want to sign another pitcher to an MLB contract, they'd probably have to put Luis Exposito on waivers (dealing Bowden would negate the added pitching depth). Makes you wonder whether the closer or added pitching depth will come from a trade of Anderson, Tejeda, or the like.

The Shoppach signing could also give the FO flexibility to include Lavarnway in a trade for an upgrade to the roster.

[Yaz4Ever]

TomRicardo, on 13 December 2011 - 10:48 AM, said:

Stoppach is a lefty masher which platoons well with Salty.

I think they want Lavarnway to get another year working on his defense.

Smiling Joe Hesketh, on 13 December 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Shoppach threw out 41% of the runners against him last year. Boy howdy that will be a welcome change from Tek's rag arm.

Two very good reasons I'm happy with this pickup. Plus, it's a short-term deal, so if he doesn't pan out who cares?

Does Valentine have a bench coach yet? I can certainly think of worse candidates than Tek for that role, if not.

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

Smiling Joe Hesketh, on 13 December 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

That is odd. Maybe he got used to playing a part-time role in 2011? Nursing an injury previous? Better pickoff moves by the pitchers that kept runners close?

Whatever it is, it's definitely not getting used to a part-time role. The only year he was a primary starting catcher was 2008 in Cleveland.

Shoppach GS  CS%
2006     31  37 
2007     44  36
2008     95  21
2009     80  23
2010     48  17
2011     71  41

No correlation there whatsoever. If someone has time perhaps they could look whether Shoppach was the primary catcher for one or two of the Rays starters last year and how that compares to 2010 and then look into how well those pitchers held runners. I didn't see any easy way to figure that out on b-ref without looking through game logs and box scores.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 13 December 2011 - 11:55 AM.

[Eric Van]

Another thought: Shoppach's projected value (fWAR weighted 3-2-1) is $4.1M. Using b-ref it's $4.2; even BP, with inexplicable bad marks for defense, has it at $1.6M.

A good GM identifies players who could be useful and makes them contract offers at 33 cents on the dollar. If someone accepts, it's all upside and no downside. If Lavarnway beats him out for the C platoon partner, there's a good chance you can deal him to a team that has had an injury to a catcher, or doesn't like what they see from their rookie candidate, and thereby pick up a Miguel Celestino-caliber C+ prospect for nothing.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

Whatever it is, it's definitely not getting used to a part-time role. The only year he was a primary starting catcher was 2008 in Cleveland.

Shoppach GS  CS%
2006     31  37 
2007     44  36
2008     95  21
2009     80  23
2010     48  17
2011     71  41

No correlation there whatsoever. If someone has time perhaps they could look whether Shoppach was the primary catcher for one or two of the Rays starters last year and how that compares to 2010 and then look into how well those pitchers held runners. I didn't see any easy way to figure that out on b-ref without looking through game logs and box scores.

I'm not sure how to solve this without looking at who actually ran against him and comparing his CS% to the success rate of the runners who actually attempted to steal on him. Who knows? Maybe in 2010 he ha the bad luck of having only the league's speediest base stealers attempt against him.

Someone must have that data...

[drtooth]

Smiling Joe Hesketh, on 13 December 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

That is odd. Maybe he got used to playing a part-time role in 2011? Nursing an injury previous? Better pickoff moves by the pitchers that kept runners close?

Shoppach was on the DL from April 15 to June 3, 2010 with a right knee sprain. May explain the drop off.

Good pick up for a back up. Can hit for power, but likely vs LH. Good handler of pitchers.

Edited by drtooth, 13 December 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[Corsi]

OttoC, on 13 December 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

If I understand things correctly, the Red Sox could release Shoppach by a certain date and not be responsible for the entire contract. It's an insurance move and perhaps an effort to get Varitek to sign more cheaply.

Quote

Per source, the Shoppach deal is guaranteed, further underscoring likelihood that Varitek is done w/#redsox

https://twitter.com/...627432609357824

[Cumberland Blues]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

If someone has time perhaps they could look whether Shoppach was the primary catcher for one or two of the Rays starters last year and how that compares to 2010 and then look into how well those pitchers held runners. I didn't see any easy way to figure that out on b-ref without looking through game logs and box scores.

Shoppach's Pitchers

Looks like he caught Shields the most, followed by Price & Davis. Surprisingly, of those three - folks ran most on the lefty Price (20SB/25attempts). Shields(6/11) & Davis(2/6) both had few SB attempts.

Jaso was horrible throwing out runners.

Jaso's Pitchers

[Bucknahs Bum Ankle]

drtooth, on 13 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Shoppach was on the DL from April 15 to June 3, 2010 with a right knee sprain. May explain the drop off.

The real drop off took place from 2007 to 2008 though. I suppose he could have been nursing that knee injury for two plus years, but it doesn't seem likely.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 13 December 2011 - 12:19 PM.

[mauidano]

In the words of the immortal Bob Hope..."Thanks for the memories". It was good Tek, real good. We had some special moments. I'll remember the good times. It's just that the magic has gone and I've found someone new, someone young you say?r Yes, but not that much, just a different direction. We'll always have 2004 and 2007. No one can take that from us. I'll never forget you...there's always a special place in my heart worthy our name on it.

[Trlicek's Whip]

Bucknahs Bum Ankle, on 13 December 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Shoppach's career CS%
2006 - 37%
2007 - 36%
2008 - 21%
2009 - 23%
2010 - 17%
2011 - 41%

A clear declining trend, until his resurgence last season. Not sure what to make of that.

For more murk, the fluctuation of Shoppach's games started at catcher, by year:

2006 - 31
2007 - 44
2008 - 94
2009 - 74
2010 - 46
2011 - 71

[OttoC]

EddieYost, on 13 December 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

I hope not. It's time to move on from Tek.

Pitching coach?

[lexrageorge]

OttoC, on 13 December 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:

Pitching coach?

No, no, and a thousand times no. Tek is not a pitcher, for one. For another, his leadership ability last season, or lack thereof, was inconsistent with that deserving of a coaching position. I strongly believe it will best for all parties (Red Sox, Tek, Beckett) that Varitek is not part of this team for the next couple of seasons.

Varitek was great for us, a big part of the 2004 and 2007 title teams and many other pennant drives. But there's always a time to move, and now is that time.

[EddieYost]

OttoC, on 13 December 2011 - 03:41 PM, said:

Pitching coach?

That wasn't exactly what I had in mind. I wouldn't mind seeing him come back as bullpen coach in a few years, or a minor league manager. It seems like he was a big part of the status quo that needs to be changed. So I would rather he not be around at all next year.

EDIT - or what lexrageorge said.

Edited by EddieYost, 13 December 2011 - 03:52 PM.

[Savin Hillbilly]

lexrageorge, on 13 December 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

No, no, and a thousand times no. Tek is not a pitcher, for one.

Some of the best pitching coaches were catchers, not pitchers--the most obvious current example being Dave Duncan. It's a natural outgrowth of the kind of working relationship they had with pitchers as players.

Whether that means Tek would be good at it is another question, but I think there are reasons to believe he might be.

Whether he would be the right choice for this team right now is yet another question, and I feel pretty sure the answer is no.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 13 December 2011 - 04:40 PM.

[OttoC]

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, on 13 December 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

I'm not sure how to solve this without looking at who actually ran against him and comparing his CS% to the success rate of the runners who actually attempted to steal on him. Who knows? Maybe in 2010 he ha the bad luck of having only the league's speediest base stealers attempt against him.

Someone must have that data...

For whatever reason, I could only find 28 stolen bases against Shoppach in 2010 using Retrosheet Event Files; however, the SB success rate for those runners was 80.2%. The six runners he caught (including Elvis Andrus three times) had a combined success rate of 67.1% for 2010. The data for each runner is listed in the Spoiler.

Spoiler

SB	CS	Baserunner (SB)
10	3	Bourjos, Peter
21	4	Patterson, Corey
10	1	Kalish, Ryan
10	1	Kalish, Ryan
14	5	Aviles, Mike
18	5	Jeter, Derek
47	9	Gardner, Brett
7	3	Barton, Daric
47	9	Gardner, Brett
12	2	Granderson, Curtis
9	2	Ross, Cody
5	2	Stanton, Mike
32	10	Ramirez, Hanley
17	4	Gwynn, Tony
29	7	Venable, Will
6	1	Casilla, Alexi
7	2	Markakis, Nick
11	5	Izturis, Cesar
6	3	Snider, Travis
17	6	Lewis, Fred
4	0	Wise, Dewayne
14	4	Kendrick, Howie
42	15	Figgins, Chone
25	3	Gutierrez, Franklin
32	3	Crisp, Coco
32	10	Ramirez, Hanley
7	3	Cuddyer, Michael
12	2	Roberts, Brian
-------------------------------
503	124	80.2%

SB	CS	Baserunner (CS)
5	4	Young, Delmon
4	3	Rodriguez, Alex
32	15	Andrus, Elvis
32	15	Andrus, Elvis
3	1	Posada, Jorge
32	15	Andrus, Elvis
-----------------------------
108	53	67.1% 

[jsinger121]

Quote

nickcafardo

Jason Varitek may still be in the picture for the Red Sox according to a major league source.

puke

[Pumpsie]

>nickcafardo

Jason Varitek may still be in the picture for the Red Sox according to a major league source.<

Could someone on this board explain to me how this is even possible? Do the Sox intend to carry 4 catchers on this team?

[EddieYost]

Pumpsie, on 14 December 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

>nickcafardo

Jason Varitek may still be in the picture for the Red Sox according to a major league source.<

Could someone on this board explain to me how this is even possible? Do the Sox intend to carry 4 catchers on this team?

Lavarnway is either trade bait or destined for AAA. Tek and Shoppach compete for backup catcher job?

[rembrat]

Pumpsie, on 14 December 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

>nickcafardo

Jason Varitek may still be in the picture for the Red Sox according to a major league source.<

Could someone on this board explain to me how this is even possible? Do the Sox intend to carry 4 catchers on this team?

Cafardo helping out Boras? It's all I got.

[JakeRae]

EddieYost, on 14 December 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Lavarnway is either trade bait or destined for AAA. Tek and Shoppach compete for backup catcher job?

I don't see Lavarnway getting traded this offseason. Salty is a bit of a question mark and is a FA after 2013. Shoppach is signed for 1 year. Neither of those guys is good enough to block Lavarnway if his defense is adequate. Lavarnway is going to start in AAA but he is going to have the opportunity to prove he belongs on the MLB roster and is excellent injury insurance.

I don't see how Tek can be anything but done in Boston. There simply isn't space to carry two backup catchers and Shoppach is younger, much better defensively, and similar offensively to Tek. If Tek is still in the picture for Boston, it is for some sort of coaching gig or as a NRI.

[JimBoSox9]

EddieYost, on 14 December 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

Lavarnway is either trade bait or destined for AAA. Tek and Shoppach compete for backup catcher job?

I think bringing Varitek to spring training w/o guaranteeing a roster spot would be a media disaster if he ended up being cut. I want no part of the circus that a competition would end up as. Tell him quietly now that he's done with the Sox, and dump him overboard while no one is watching.

[Beomoose]

jsinger121, on 14 December 2011 - 08:59 AM, said:

puke

Coaching?

[jsinger121]

Quote

MikeSilvermanBB

Cherington on Varitek: "Our hope is that Tek will always be part of #RedSox in some way.'' Will keep talking to him. Privately.

Just let him go already.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

jsinger121, on 15 December 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

Just let him go already.

"In some way" means "not on the active roster" to me. Coaching? Roving instructor? As long as he's not playing I'm happy with whatever.