367 replies to this topic

[soxhop411]

Its being talked about all around twitter...

@YSSRTwinCities: NL MVP Ryan Braun has tested positive for performance enhancing drugs


diamond83 Diamond Leung Ryan Braun of Milwaukee Brewers tests positive for performance-enhancing drug - ESPN es.pn/tob4s8

Edited by soxhop411, 10 December 2011 - 07:44 PM.

[MannysGoldGlove]

http://espn.go.com/e...-enhancing-drug

[Williams Head Case]

Story on OTL

Ryan Braun tests positive for PED

National League MVP Ryan Braun, who last season led the Milwaukee Brewers to their first division title in nearly three decades, has tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug and faces a 50-game suspension if the initial finding is upheld, two sources familiar with the case told "Outside the Lines."

Major League Baseball has not announced the positive test because Braun is disputing the result through arbitration.

A spokesman for Braun issued a statement Saturday: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

The 28-year-old Braun had to provide a urine sample for testing during the playoffs, and he was notified of the positive test sometime in late October -- about a month before he was named the National League's most valuable player.

The positive result was triggered by elevated levels of testosterone in Braun's system, the sources also told "Outside the Lines." A subsequent, more comprehensive test revealed the testosterone was synthetic -- not produced by Braun's body.

Every individual naturally produces testosterone and a substance called epitestosterone, typically at a ratio of 1-to-1. In Major League Baseball, if the ratio comes in at 4-to-1 or higher during testing, a player is deemed to have tested positive. The sources did not indicate how high above the threshold Braun's sample tested.

[RedOctober3829]

National League MVP Ryan Braun, who last season led the Milwaukee Brewers to their first division title in nearly three decades, has tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug and faces a 50-game suspension if the initial finding is upheld, two sources familiar with the case told "Outside the Lines."

Major League Baseball has not announced the positive test because Braun is disputing the result through arbitration.

A spokesman for Braun issued a statement Saturday: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

The 28-year-old Braun had to provide a urine sample for testing during the playoffs, and he was notified of the positive test sometime in late October -- about a month before he was named the National League's most valuable player.

The positive result was triggered by elevated levels of testosterone in Braun's system, the sources also told "Outside the Lines." A subsequent, more comprehensive test revealed the testosterone was synthetic -- not produced by Braun's body.

http://espn.go.com/e...-enhancing-drug

[axx]

So the positive test came from during the playoffs? Bud would have a little crisis on their hands if the Brewers had won the Series.

[Gdiguy]

So the positive test came from during the playoffs? Bud would have a little crisis on their hands if the Brewers had won the Series.

I think the crisis of giving him the MVP award is probably worse (he definitely knew it at that time, and I'd be surprised if Bud didn't also know by the time of the award)

Edited by Gdiguy, 10 December 2011 - 07:57 PM.

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

He and his wife were probably just trying to have a baby. No biggie.

[axx]

I think the crisis of giving him the MVP award is probably worse

They can always revoke the award.

"Highly unusual circumstances" = "Didn't think I would get tested in the playoffs"

[SoxScout]

I'm not shocked or saddened at all by this. I'm happy MLB isn't taking this shit from anyone, even a beloved MVP.

[axx]

Gotta love twitter. Trending now:

Ryan Braun
PEDs
#cheater
#steroids
#brewers
Matt Kemp

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Well, if this proves to be true, baseball fans can always take solace in the fact that he has to be only player using PEDs these days. I mean, there is no way other stars could be using and not get busted.

[axx]

I'm not shocked or saddened at all by this. I'm happy MLB isn't taking this shit from anyone, even a beloved MVP.

If there's one thing I know for sure, Selig wouldn't have let this leak unless they were going to uphold the suspension.

[MannysGoldGlove]

Well, if this proves to be true, baseball fans can always take solace in the fact that he has to be only player using PEDs these days. I mean, there is no way other stars could be using and not get busted.

I hope your not saying MLB should overlook a positive test. Sure theres probably others and its a gamble everytime they do it.

[Yaz4Ever]

Brewers are going to look pretty anemic offensively if this pans out to be true and Braun is suspended 50 games - especially if they remain "out" on Fielder.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I hope your not saying MLB should overlook a positive test. Sure theres probably others and its a gamble everytime they do it.

Oh they shouldn't overlook it. But there is NO way other players are using PEDs.

I mean there is absolutely no incentive, whatsoever, for a guy looking for a career or a big payday in MLB to use PEDs. Or even find ways to use PEDs which aren't easy to detect. It could never happen. I mean they'd choose to play in Japan or go home and sell cars or wait tables before they'd do that, right?

[ThePrideofShiner]

I hope your not saying MLB should overlook a positive test. Sure theres probably others and its a gamble everytime they do it.

Edit: He can answer for himself.

Edited by crakerraker, 11 December 2011 - 01:27 AM.

[mikeford]

Should be stripped of the MVP.

[The Mainahh]

I wish I could say that I was surprise, but I can't. Is anyone still naive enough to believe that the incentives to juice in pro-sports in any way is outweighed by the consequences? These guys stand to gain tens of millions of dollars for high-performance and a mere 50 game or so suspension if they are caught. Why not juice?

On top of this, what is so wrong with taking some sort of performance enhancer as a pill/shot when pro-baseball has for years allowed guys to wear vision improving glasses/googles and get lasic surgery to improve their vision? I personally don't see a difference between these "performance enhancers" and the various incarnations of "steroids" that the media demonizes.

Do I want a free for all, drugged up league? Not really, but I do prefer a more honest approach to all the things that enhance a players performance.

Modern medicine is a part of sports. Get over it. It has already improved the quality of our athletes and will only continue to do so. If you don't like it, take up curling.

Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, and Ted Williams played in a segregated league. Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and Hank Aaron played before the advent of weight training. The game evolves and it will continue to. Rather than demonize players for taking advantage of the current medical wisdom of their age I would rather see baseball stop trying to cling to decades old records and embrace its modern incarnation

Grow up, Man up, and enjoy modern baseball for what it is, not what our granddads (or baseball writers) think it ought to be.

[The Mainahh]

Should be stripped of the MVP.

No.

[rembrat]

Brewers are going to look pretty anemic offensively if this pans out to be true and Braun is suspended 50 games - especially if they remain "out" on Fielder.

The Cardinals luck out again!

[SoxFanInCali]

Should be stripped of the MVP.

The award is given by the writers, not MLB.

There's no precedent to strip one after it's been awarded. Bonds still has all of his.

[SoxScout]

The award is given by the writers, not MLB.

There's no precedent to strip one after it's been awarded. Bonds still has all of his.

Make a new freakin precedent, he tested positive, twice, a week after his MLB season.

[Rudy Pemberton]

At least this can put an end to the theory that every move Selig makes is to favor of his beloved Brewers.

In all seriousness, this sucks. A fantastic young player for a middle market team is dirty? Not surprising but unfortunate.

Awful offseason for Milwaukee. Lose Fielder most likely, Braun suspension, K-Rod accepts arb? Yikes.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

Oh they shouldn't overlook it. But there is NO way other players are using PEDs.

I mean there is absolutely no incentive, whatsoever, for a guy looking for a career or a big payday in MLB to use PEDs. Or even find ways to use PEDs which aren't easy to detect. It could never happen. I mean they'd choose to play in Japan or go home and sell cars or wait tables before they'd do that, right?

Exactly. Tim Kurkjian and Peter Gammons know all these guys better than anyone, and they can tell us all what good, smart, high character guys they all are, and that they'd never let their professional integrity become tarnished by a positive drug test.

[BigMike]

Maybe he was just careless when buying over the counter vitamins and supplements like juice Ortiz.

[Fred not Lynn]

Ryan Braun, like every other player is entitled to due process - as should be within the context of a fairly designed and implemented anti-doping program. Let's not entirely crucify him until that process is complete.

[SemperFidelisSox]

You play in the NL Central. Do you really need performance enhancing drugs to help you hit Ryan Dempster and Bronson Arroyo?

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

The award is given by the writers, not MLB.

There's no precedent to strip one after it's been awarded. Bonds still has all of his.

Second SS's sentiment. MLB can decide a confirmed positive test renders a player ineligible for any post season awards. If they are serious about guys being clean or else, that's what will happen. If the Brewers had gone farther in the playoffs, that would make things really messy.

Whether it's confirmed the testosterone indeed was synthetic is another matter, and whether Braun was responsible for it is another matter. He has to be given the opportunity to defend himself and examine the integrity of the test before that judgement is made. Is there a 'B sample' test routine in MLB's rules? ...There should be. Strange it's taken this long to come out at all. Two full months?!?

If it turns out he's guilty, he' got to pay the price.

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Should be stripped of the MVP.

Scott Boras lamenting "Why couldn't it have been Verlander???"

[ivanvamp]

The award is given by the writers, not MLB.

There's no precedent to strip one after it's been awarded. Bonds still has all of his.

Not that I believe he hasn't done PEDs, but I don't think Bonds has ever tested positive.

[Darnell's Son]

I wish I could say that I was surprise, but I can't. Is anyone still naive enough to believe that the incentives to juice in pro-sports in any way is outweighed by the consequences? These guys stand to gain tens of millions of dollars for high-performance and a mere 50 game or so suspension if they are caught. Why not juice?

On top of this, what is so wrong with taking some sort of performance enhancer as a pill/shot when pro-baseball has for years allowed guys to wear vision improving glasses/googles and get lasic surgery to improve their vision? I personally don't see a difference between these "performance enhancers" and the various incarnations of "steroids" that the media demonizes.

Do I want a free for all, drugged up league? Not really, but I do prefer a more honest approach to all the things that enhance a players performance.

Modern medicine is a part of sports. Get over it. It has already improved the quality of our athletes and will only continue to do so. If you don't like it, take up curling.

Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, and Ted Williams played in a segregated league. Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and Hank Aaron played before the advent of weight training. The game evolves and it will continue to. Rather than demonize players for taking advantage of the current medical wisdom of their age I would rather see baseball stop trying to cling to decades old records and embrace its modern incarnation

Grow up, Man up, and enjoy modern baseball for what it is, not what our granddads (or baseball writers) think it ought to be.

This argument is really silly. HGH and steroids are mostly illegal aren't they? They also have long-term known and unknown effects, don't they? Have goggles ever made a high school kid have a heart attack? I bet steroids have. I for one, don't have a huge deal with steroids, but lets not act like Braun put on a pair of friggin' goggles. Don't compare taking drugs to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth not playing against black guys, it's not a reasonable nor a fair argument.

[JMDurron]

Ryan Braun, like every other player is entitled to due process - as should be within the context of a fairly designed and implemented anti-doping program. Let's not entirely crucify him until that process is complete.

I see what you did there.

More seriously, we think we have seen at least one previous instance of a somewhat special case with David Ortiz, whose inclusion on a list of positive tests was apparently somehow different from other cases in ways that were never explained that I know of. There may very well be a more mundane explanation for this even if he did test positive, so we should wait for more details before acting like he's been definitively nailed over this.

[zapo]

we think we have seen at least one previous instance of a somewhat special case with David Ortiz, whose inclusion on a list of positive tests was apparently somehow different from other cases in ways that were never explained that I know of.

sorry, can you remind me (us?) how Ortiz was a special case? I thought his was similar to the majority who say, to paraphrase: "I didn't know, i have no idea, it can't be right, I don't know."

[Fishercat]

http://mlb.sbnation....sitive-ped-test

A source close to Braun said that when he was told about the positive test, he immediately requested to be tested again. That second test, the source said, was not positive. Those close to Braun believe that the difference between the two tests will show that the first test was invalid.

Let's not all jump quite yet...

[SoxFanInCali]

The key fact that is missing there is how long was it between the 2 tests.

[JMDurron]

sorry, can you remind me (us?) how Ortiz was a special case? I thought his was similar to the majority who say, to paraphrase: "I didn't know, i have no idea, it can't be right, I don't know."

Back from this September, 2009 link, there is this quote:

MLB has contested the list’s accuracy, claiming only 96 positive tests were recorded by the union in 2003, not the widely reported 104 positives. Both the Players Association and MLB have stated that 13 results were inconclusive, including that of Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz, who The New York Times recently asserted had tested positive for steroids in 2003.

Nobody has ever explained what that "inconclusive" result is that I know of, so Ortiz has a quasi-cloud hanging over him, for lack of a better term, as opposed to the guys who had positive tests, or have already been convicted via anecdotal evidence in the court of public opinion (Bagwell comes to mind here). Then there's the whole "104 - 96 != 13" bit, so we're pulling numbers from different data sets into the same paragraph for added confusion. That whole issue was weird.

From the OTL link provided by Williams Head Case in Post #3:

National League MVP Ryan Braun, who last season led the Milwaukee Brewers to their first division title in nearly three decades, has tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug and faces a 50-game suspension if the initial finding is upheld, two sources familiar with the case told "Outside the Lines."

Major League Baseball has not announced the positive test because Braun is disputing the result through arbitration.

A spokesman for Braun issued a statement Saturday: "There are highly unusual circumstances surrounding this case which will support Ryan's complete innocence and demonstrate there was absolutely no intentional violation of the program. While Ryan has impeccable character and no previous history, unfortunately, because of the process we have to maintain confidentiality and are not able to discuss it any further, but we are confident he will ultimately be exonerated."

There are three key pieces here, in my mind, and I've bolded the key passages above.

1) If the initial finding isn't upheld, how thorough will the explanation be? Have there been cases of initial reported findings not being upheld that we know of? I'm not aware of any.

2) The highly unusual circumstances line is what made me think of Ortiz. This is somewhat mitigated, though, by...

3) "No intentional violation of the program" sounds a whole lot like "Oh, I didn't know that was banned, but I took it." That said, this still allows for a wide range of possibilities. An odd substance ingested accidentally (this might be his story whether that is true or not, unfortunately), or a presumably benign substance in Braun's mind that was on the banned list.

[BigMike]

sorry, can you remind me (us?) how Ortiz was a special case? I thought his was similar to the majority who say, to paraphrase: "I didn't know, i have no idea, it can't be right, I don't know."

I guess it was a special case in that he had a press conference, came up with a laughably diingenuous excuse, and for whatever reason the media took it hook line and sinker, and glossed over it never to be mentioned again.

I say that as someone who couldn't care less about who juiced.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

The key fact that is missing there is how long was it between the 2 tests.

Plenty of time for the Testosterone to exit his system even if he was legitimately positive on the first test. That's why cycling divides the blood sample and saves the second half for a confirmation test should the first one come up positive. Pretty poorly thought out if the MLB test does not, as it appears, do the same thing.

Or just a clever way of giving someone like Braun a chance to drink a lot of cranberry juice and get a second test later on to clear his name...

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

No matter what happens this is horrible for baseball. One one side, Braun is one of the best young stars in the game, and just won the MVP award, narrowly defeating another young star that did not test positive for PEDs. On the other side, if it turns out that the test was incorrect, the court of public opinion isn't going to look favorably on the Brewers minded commissioner exonerating the most famous popular Brewer since Robin Yount.

Edited by HangingW/ScottCooper, 10 December 2011 - 10:38 PM.

[SoxScout]

Plenty of time for the Testosterone to exit his system even if he was legitimately positive on the first test. That's why cycling divides the blood sample and saves the second half for a confirmation test should the first one come up positive. Pretty poorly thought out if the MLB test does not, as it appears, do the same thing.

Or just a clever way of giving someone like Braun a chance to drink a lot of cranberry juice and get a second test later on to clear his name...

Isn't that exactly what this sounds like?

The positive result was triggered by elevated levels of testosterone in Braun's system, the sources also told "Outside the Lines." A subsequent, more comprehensive test revealed the testosterone was synthetic -- not produced by Braun's body. http://espn.go.com/e...-enhancing-drug

[pedros hairstylist]

Sounds like he's going to go the "GNC supplements" route. From what I've read, a negative second test does not necessarily negate the first positive.

[Average Reds]

Sounds like he's going to go the "GNC supplements" route. From what I've read, a negative second test does not necessarily negate the first positive.

You are correct in stating that the results of the second sample do not negate the first positive.

I think you're also correct that he is trying to set up a "supplement" claim, because while steroids are detectable in your system for for 30 days or more, a tainted supplement may clear from his system in a matter of days. Of course, it shouldn't matter whether the initial result was based on an inadvertent use or not, because Braun is responsible for what he puts in his own body.

[samuelLsamson]

Of course, it shouldn't matter whether the initial result was based on an inadvertent use or not, because Braun is responsible for what he puts in his own body.

I agree - my understanding of MLB's drug testing programme is that it imposes strict liability on players. This is standard practice in the drug testing programmes of other sports. Unless he could show his food/drink had been 'spiked', then the fact the substance is there in two samples would be enough.

[The Mainahh]

This argument is really silly. HGH and steroids are mostly illegal aren't they? They also have long-term known and unknown effects, don't they? Have goggles ever made a high school kid have a heart attack? I bet steroids have. I for one, don't have a huge deal with steroids, but lets not act like Braun put on a pair of friggin' goggles. Don't compare taking drugs to Ted Williams and Babe Ruth not playing against black guys, it's not a reasonable nor a fair argument.

Theres nothing silly about it, only uncomfortable similarities. Does lasic surgery and advanced eye care help modern players in a way that players of older generations did not also have access to? Yes, no one would even bother to argue this. Is this a "performance enhancer?" Hell ya!

All I ask is are these forms of performance enhancers worse than "steroids" or other alleged "performance enhancers?"

Modern baseball players play against the highest level of competition in baseball history, they are the most fit, mentally focused, and medically aided generation of athletes ever. Does it really surprise anyone that there are chemical "enhancements?"

I personally don't really care if Braun used roids or not, he would be a great player with or without them. Maybe the roids help him hit another 3-7 homers per year, maybe they do nothing for him, the simple fact is we don't know. More importantly, every generation has its advantages over the older ones, it is a fact of life. Trying to fight that with revisionist history about how noble old records are is just silly fogeism.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Well, guilty or not, a 50 game suspension is a joke if the league really wants to deter PED use. As The Mainahh said up-thread (not that I agree with his post in its entirety), when a player stands to prolong his career in MLB and/or make a lot of money, a downside of a 50 game suspension is worth the risk.

What would work for all but the marginal cases (think AAAA players) is a life-time ban. The testing and review process would have to be very detailed but it would almost certainly deter players who are talented enough to be regulars in the Majors from seeking an edge to make them a superstar.

Its hard to imagine that guys like Bonds, McGwire or Clemens would have used if getting caught almost certainly meant the end of their careers.

In any event, until or unless MLB does something like this, all the hand-wringing and moralizing is bullshit. And I'll assume that the vast majority of these guys are doing whatever they can to gain an advantage or merely keeping up with their peers.

Edited by DeJesus Built My Hotrod, 11 December 2011 - 12:38 AM.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

You are correct in stating that the results of the second sample do not negate the first positive.

I think you're also correct that he is trying to set up a "supplement" claim, because while steroids are detectable in your system for for 30 days or more, a tainted supplement may clear from his system in a matter of days. Of course, it shouldn't matter whether the initial result was based on an inadvertent use or not, because Braun is responsible for what he puts in his own body.

So WADA did do the B sample test, and here's the Braun camp money quote:

Those close to Braun believe that the difference between the two tests will show that the first test was invalid. Although Braun's representatives acknowledge that a non-positive test would not negate a positive one, they believe the second test shows certain anomalies that will suggest problems with the first. They declined to specify.

This is pretty standard. WADA will be fully prepared to defend their positive result, as they have to be given how typical Braun's defense is. The question now is how good Braun's lawyers and experts are, and whether MLB will find a way to concede their case.

I think the path of least resistance is MLB standing behind WADA's science, upholding the positive while conceding some sympathy for Braun's mitigating circumstances, shaking their collective index finger at him, and holding him up as an example while confirming his high character. They'll say how unfortunate his lapse of judgement in not being careful enough was, and do what they can to protect his star power.

I wonder if they'll end up being that forceful. Many are skeptical:

No professional sports league in this country has handed the reins of drug testing over to WADA, and for good reasons. Drug testing for professional sports leagues is mostly a sham, designed to keep Congress and the media off their backs. In contrast, WADA takes drug testing seriously, testing in and out of season, frequently and without notice, and requiring athletes to let them know of their exact location months in advance. Under WADA rules, if the collection police show up and you aren’t where you said you were going to be, you’ve effectively failed a drug test.

Biz of Football

[samuelLsamson]

I personally don't really care if Braun used roids or not

I'm pretty sure we all noticed that already. I suspect most people care a bit more than you do.

Personally I think it's naive to imagine he's the only one doping - assuming he is found to have broken the regulations - just as it struck me as naive for Sox fans to gloat over Yankee drug-test failures in the past. Therefore I'm not going to get all morally superior about this issue, but still it is cheating and deserves the punishment that will follow.

[julesfan]

As The Mainahh said up-thread (not that I agree with his post in its entirety), when a player stands to prolong his career in MLB and/or make a lot of money, a downside of a 50 game suspension is worth the risk.

See that's what doesn't make sense to me with Braun. I mean he's in the prime of his career and has a very lucrative long-term contract, so what's he to gain RIGHT NOW from juicing? I mean when Manny was busted it was obvious he was a player trying to extend his career and maybe get one more payday, but Braun doesn't fit that profile. This really saddens me, because I can't figure out why he'd be doing this now, if he was in fact doing something wrong.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

Theres nothing silly about it, only uncomfortable similarities. Does lasic surgery and advanced eye care help modern players in a way that players of older generations did not also have access to? Yes, no one would even bother to argue this. Is this a "performance enhancer?" Hell ya!

All I ask is are these forms of performance enhancers worse than "steroids" or other alleged "performance enhancers?"

Modern baseball players play against the highest level of competition in baseball history, they are the most fit, mentally focused, and medically aided generation of athletes ever. Does it really surprise anyone that there are chemical "enhancements?"

I personally don't really care if Braun used roids or not, he would be a great player with or without them. Maybe the roids help him hit another 3-7 homers per year, maybe they do nothing for him, the simple fact is we don't know. More importantly, every generation has its advantages over the older ones, it is a fact of life. Trying to fight that with revisionist history about how noble old records are is just silly fogeism.

What on Earth are you trying to say? Your opening and concluding statements surround a decent argument in the middle that have nothing to do each other. There are no 'uncomfortable similarities, nor is anyone arguing revisionist history about old records. You're attempting to moralize the issue when no one else really cares, apparently including yourself, if your comments about not caring if he used "roids" (testosterone is not a steroid) are to be believed.

The current system makes a decent attempt to level the playing field, and he took an advantage, knowingly or not, that no one else demonstrated. If Braun broke the rules his PA agreed to there have to be consequences (also ones they agreed to). No one else has gotten themselves caught in this equation.

If you are arguing that more than 4 times the testosterone levels of a normal man are not a performance enhancer, or that certain currently undetectable banned steroids are worse, make a specific scientific argument about the current MLB policies. But if you think synthetic testosterone is a "roid," I'm guessing you don't have the vaguest clue about the specifics and it is you that's the "old fogey."

[bigsid05]

See that's what doesn't make sense to me with Braun. I mean he's in the prime of his career and has a very lucrative long-term contract, so what's he to gain RIGHT NOW from juicing? I mean when Manny was busted it was obvious he was a player trying to extend his career and maybe get one more payday, but Braun doesn't fit that profile. This really saddens me, because I can't figure out why he'd be doing this now, if he was in fact doing something wrong.

That seems overly naive. There's a reason he has produced so well in his prime, and I highly doubt Manny just started on the stuff to extend his career. I bet most of these guys have been and still are on the stuff.