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Dwight Howard to the Nets?


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#51 Wilco's Last Fan

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:21 PM

Yeah but you said very, very good players. I don't see a whole lot of them becoming available next year via free agency.


Trade, not FA. He said trade exception.

#52 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:18 PM

Listening to Dwight Howard on NBATV all but saying that he would re-sign with Orlandoe if Van Gundy is gone and if not then he is out of town. Usually this stuff goes on behind the scenes but D-Ho is talking about changes that he is requiring management to make that doesn't have to do with players. Quickly evading the followup question about how his conversations have been with Van Gundy with "We haven't talked" then changing the subject.


A public power play.....frickin awesome!

Edited by HomeRunBaker, 12 December 2011 - 08:19 PM.


#53 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:41 AM

The newest rumors involve a 3 team deal between Orlando, New Jersey, and Portland.

Don't know all of the pieces yet, but Orlando would be receiving Lopez and Gerald Wallace. I'd have to assume there'd be picks as well.

No idea what's going to Portland, but based on my math, whoever it is has to be pretty expensive in order to make their 2 year, 10 million offer to Jamal Crawford work.

edit: right as I posted this saw on Twitter that the Blazers main haul would be draft picks for facilitating the deal.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 14 December 2011 - 09:42 AM.


#54 Infield Infidel


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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:01 PM

To market this trade to their fans, they should do a three team deal with the Suns to get the other Lopez brother too

Trade machine

#55 kazuneko

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:22 PM

Posted this in the CP3 thread but its probably is more relevant to this thread:

A dramatic follow-up move to the Clippers CP3 trade:

Orlando gets:
Eric Bledsoe
Blake Griffin
Ryan Gomes

Clippers get:
Dwight Howard
(and its Trade Machine approved)


When I posted this earlier no one questioned the value of the trade from Orlando's perspective, but there were some concerns raised about whether or not the Clippers are getting a good deal. I feel like that is a bit strange. I mean, if you can pull off a trade that gets you a Howard - arguably the best player in the league - when all you are giving up is players that are inarguably not even in the league's top 5 then there is no way you don't do the trade. Its very rare to win championships in this league without MVP caliber players. Griffin is not in that category and Howard is. Sure, Griffin might improve - but he is unlikely to ever be as good as Howard. And Howard only turned 26 last week.
People were also worried about whether or not Howard would extend with the Clipps, but I feel that isn't much of a concern. With CP3 now playing with the Clippers a Howard trade would pair two top 5 players on one team - both of whom would be entering their age 26 seasons. That is a lot of talent to build around and LA is the type of location most young players want to be. Howard and Paul would both be almost certain to extend under those conditions.

Edited by kazuneko, 15 December 2011 - 12:03 AM.


#56 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:03 AM

I'm assuming that this has become the de facto Nets thread, so with that in mind. . .

What the hell do the Nets do now? As currently constructed, the Nets lineup looks like this:

PG: Deron Williams/Jordan Farmar
SG: Anthony Morrow/Stephen Graham?/Ben Uzoh?/Sundiata Gaines?
SF: Travis Outlaw/Damion James
PF:
C: Brook Lopez/Johan Petro

So what do they do to put a competitive team on the floor without screwing up their cap flexibility?

#57 moondog80


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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:32 AM

I'm assuming that this has become the de facto Nets thread, so with that in mind. . .

What the hell do the Nets do now? As currently constructed, the Nets lineup looks like this:

PG: Deron Williams/Jordan Farmar
SG: Anthony Morrow/Stephen Graham?/Ben Uzoh?/Sundiata Gaines?
SF: Travis Outlaw/Damion James
PF:
C: Brook Lopez/Johan Petro

So what do they do to put a competitive team on the floor without screwing up their cap flexibility?



They stay patient and wait for the Magic to trade Howard, the same way the Clippers did when the Chris Paul talks broke down.

#58 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:08 AM

They stay patient and wait for the Magic to trade Howard, the same way the Clippers did when the Chris Paul talks broke down.



The Clippers had the liberty of standing pat and going into the season as they were constructed, the Nets do not. They have to add at least 10 million dollars in salary, ideally in one year deals, which may be a complicated thing to do at this point in the offseason. One of their major selling points in the Howard talks was the ability to bring on salary; if they don't add the right players on the right deals, their ability to do so will be limited. So that was my question. Who do the Nets add, and how do they do so in a manner that doesn't complicate their efforts to nab Dwight Howard?

#59 TomRicardo


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Posted 15 December 2011 - 10:24 AM

I'm assuming that this has become the de facto Nets thread, so with that in mind. . .

What the hell do the Nets do now? As currently constructed, the Nets lineup looks like this:

PG: Deron Williams/Jordan Farmar
SG: Anthony Morrow/Stephen Graham?/Ben Uzoh?/Sundiata Gaines?
SF: Travis Outlaw/Damion James
PF:
C: Brook Lopez/Johan Petro

So what do they do to put a competitive team on the floor without screwing up their cap flexibility?


They have the Bird Rights to Mrs. Kardashian

#60 86spike


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Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:30 PM

Nets are adding a bunch of 1-year deals to fill the gaps. Nothing that will prevent them from trading for Howard in March or signing him outright in June if he's a free agent.

I still think something will happen in the next two weeks.

From what I understand, Howard only gets to add the fifth year (Bird Rights) to an extension this spring if he's extending with a team he's been on for 6 months. So if Orlando keeps him beyond January 1 and then trades him elsewhere, he will lose that fifth year and only be able to extend for 4. You gotta believe that Howard's agent is pushing Orlando to move him before then. Of course, it seems like Orlando might plan to use that leverage to get him to stay (holding him into 2012 and then telling him that he needs to re-up with them to get his fifth year).

I can't imagine he's happy about all of this.

#61 swingin val

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:02 PM

Another rumor on rotoworld saying this thing is happening tomorrow.

Cant see it. Brook Lopez and Anthony Morrow and some middle first round picks is a terrible haul.

#62 bowiac


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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:25 PM

Another rumor on rotoworld saying this thing is happening tomorrow.

Cant see it. Brook Lopez and Anthony Morrow and some middle first round picks is a terrible haul.

Would you rather have that package, or Bynum and some drek? That's a serious question.

I have little doubt that a Bynum/Gasol package gets this done, but I think the Lakers might not be willing to do that. In that case - the Nets package might be better.

#63 Brickowski

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:29 PM

The Nets can take Hedo's contract alot more easily than the Lakers.

Edited by Brickowski, 19 December 2011 - 11:31 PM.


#64 PBDWake

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:42 PM

Not to mention, if Dwight is steering this via a willingness to sign/not sign an extension, let's be honest (and take some glee in this): Would he want to go to LA for the cost of what it would take to get him, especially if NJ was on the table? I don't think a Bynum only package is worth it for Orlando- They immediately fall out of contention with trading him, and they don't gain much cap room to improve without dumping Turk's contract. If LA offers Gasol and Bynum, he goes to the Lakers, yes, possibly with Turkoglu, but he joins a team with serious cap issues to play with who? Derek Fisher, Hedo Turkoglu, and Metta World Peace? Kobe is still there, but he's aging, less effective, and the end is on the horizon. It's not a terrific option for him, when he could Marquee the hot new team in NY with Deron Williams in a much easier conference. If I were Howard, I'd be trying to force my way to the Nets over the Lakers, or, if I wanted the Lakers, I'd make it clear it'd need to happen without giving up Gasol as well, either by waiting until you can get him via S+T, or trying to wait out Otis Smith.

#65 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:36 PM

Brooke Lopez has a broken foot. Surgery tomorrow.


edit: Was on a conference call when I posted this, but this news has the potential to have a huge effect on the league. A broken foot likely decreases the odds the Magic want Lopez in a trade, which makes the Lakers the front runner for Dwight. That would change the dynamic of the West, and pretty much cement Deron Williams leaving New Jersey.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 22 December 2011 - 01:47 PM.


#66 triniSox

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:57 PM

Brooke Lopez has a broken foot. Surgery tomorrow.


edit: Was on a conference call when I posted this, but this news has the potential to have a huge effect on the league. A broken foot likely decreases the odds the Magic want Lopez in a trade, which makes the Lakers the front runner for Dwight. That would change the dynamic of the West, and pretty much cement Deron Williams leaving New Jersey.

Pretty big effect. Lakers will be the frontrunner if Dwight gets traded but they'll likely still have to give up Gasol and Bynum. Also Mavs chances of getting D-Wil increases since he's likely to leave the Nets and they'll have a shot at trading for/signing Dwight as well (not a great chance but there's some chance).

#67 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:04 PM

Pretty big effect. Lakers will be the frontrunner if Dwight gets traded but they'll likely still have to give up Gasol and Bynum. Also Mavs chances of getting D-Wil increases since he's likely to leave the Nets and they'll have a shot at trading for/signing Dwight as well (not a great chance but there's some chance).


The Celtics should be on the phone with Billy King right now offering Rondo for Williams.

Zach Lowe is reporting on Twitter that the exact same injury kept Beaubois out for most of last season, and that a doctor he spoke to suggested it will take 3-4 months to come back. That's basically the entirety of this shortened season.

#68 86spike


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:41 PM

fuck

Official word is Lopez will be back in 6-8 weeks, but that's probably a best case scenario and if Orlando didn't love him earlier, they won't like him any more if he has a questionable wheel.

fuck
fuck
fuck

This is the worst case scenario for the Nets.

fuck

#69 nighthob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:23 PM

Pretty big effect. Lakers will be the frontrunner if Dwight gets traded but they'll likely still have to give up Gasol and Bynum. Also Mavs chances of getting D-Wil increases since he's likely to leave the Nets and they'll have a shot at trading for/signing Dwight as well (not a great chance but there's some chance).


Dallas has $41 million committed to five players next year, add in cap holds and they have approximately $14 million to offer a free agent. There's a zero percent chance that the Nyets take back long-term salaries in the exchange. So Marion & Haywood aren't going anywhere, and the Mavericks aren't getting Williams and Howard unless it's a three way deal with Dirk headed out (unlikely),

#70 nighthob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:24 PM

The Celtics should be on the phone with Billy King right now offering Rondo for Williams.


No, they should hold off until February, when the Nyets will be getting desperate and the owner might be very willing to make a trade for a sure thing, but Williams would need to pick up his option before Boston made the trade.

#71 triniSox

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 03:58 PM

Dallas has $41 million committed to five players next year, add in cap holds and they have approximately $14 million to offer a free agent. There's a zero percent chance that the Nyets take back long-term salaries in the exchange. So Marion & Haywood aren't going anywhere, and the Mavericks aren't getting Williams and Howard unless it's a three way deal with Dirk headed out (unlikely),

I never said trading for D-Will was an option. Options are trading for Dwight and getting D-Will as a free agent, getting both as free agents or getting only one as a free agent.

Amnestying Haywood frees up a fair amount of space. I'ma a pretty big Mavs fan and I follow the Mavs cap-ologists pretty closely and they're convinced they definitely have room for 1 max and perhaps 2 if they agree to slightly below max.



#72 nighthob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

I never said trading for D-Will was an option. Options are trading for Dwight and getting D-Will as a free agent, getting both as free agents or getting only one as a free agent.


Let me try this again, slowly so that even you can understand it. Unless they amnesty Dirk there won't be enough cap space for them to add both Williams and Howard to their payroll. Again, they have $41 million tied up in five players for 2013. Half of that in a single player. When calculating cap space you have to add to the payroll figure minimum cap holds for every open roster spot. In Dallas' case that brings their cap figure up to $46-$47 million.

New Jersey would have interest in exactly one of Dallas' 2013 contracts, presumably the one contract the Mavs have no interest in dealing. So if the Mavs added D-Will it would be in exchange for Roddy Beaubois, Dominique James and expiring contracts. That would put Dallas' 2013 payroll at around $59 million before cap holds. How exactly are they signing Dwight as a free agent? Is he signing an MLE deal? Even after amnestying Haywood they would have around... $5 million to sign a free agent with.

#73 triniSox

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 08:51 PM

Let me try this again, slowly so that even you can understand it. Unless they amnesty Dirk there won't be enough cap space for them to add both Williams and Howard to their payroll. Again, they have $41 million tied up in five players for 2013. Half of that in a single player. When calculating cap space you have to add to the payroll figure minimum cap holds for every open roster spot. In Dallas' case that brings their cap figure up to $46-$47 million.

New Jersey would have interest in exactly one of Dallas' 2013 contracts, presumably the one contract the Mavs have no interest in dealing. So if the Mavs added D-Will it would be in exchange for Roddy Beaubois, Dominique James and expiring contracts. That would put Dallas' 2013 payroll at around $59 million before cap holds. How exactly are they signing Dwight as a free agent? Is he signing an MLE deal? Even after amnestying Haywood they would have around... $5 million to sign a free agent with.

Unnecessary tone. I'm not sure why you're talking about Mavs-Nets trade for D-Will. That's not their plan unless it's a sign and trade at the end of the season. Trading for Howard is more feasible but like I said upthread, unlikely.

In terms of 2013 salary cap, there's creative ways Mavs can free up more space e.g. trading Marion/Haywood with Roddy B and Dominique Jones + picks in essentially a salary dump for Dallas either at the trading deadline or end of season and amnestying the other. That'd potentially wipe $16 million off the books, so about $8million more than your projections - around $13 mil in total. Overall, it'd take Howard and D-Will taking a little less than the max (conceivable if they get one of them in a S & T since they'd be getting an extra year and also consider no tax in Texas would be a selling point to take a little less).

Marc Stein of ESPN has mentioned this: http://espn.go.com/n...ers-sources-say

Dallas Mavericks -- who are amassing the requisite salary cap space to pursue both Howard and/or Dallas-area native Deron Williams in the summer of 2012

.

Mike Fisher and David Lord of dallasbasketball.com have written about the possibility of Howard and D-Will as well.

David Aldridge of TNT on twitter:
https://twitter.com/#!/daldridgetnt/status/146731270758596608
link to tweet
link to tweet

Mavs lining up their ducks to be major player in 2012 free agency. Will be in play for both DWill and D12.

https://twitter.com/#!/daldridgetnt/status/146733008920121344
link to tweet

Cubes has amnesty in his back pocket that he can use next summer to clear out another $8M (Marion/H'wood). Could easily have $20-25M in room


Edit: Added supporting quotes

Edited by triniSox, 22 December 2011 - 09:39 PM.


#74 Infield Infidel


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 09:20 PM

fuck

Official word is Lopez will be back in 6-8 weeks, but that's probably a best case scenario and if Orlando didn't love him earlier, they won't like him any more if he has a questionable wheel.

fuck
fuck
fuck

This is the worst case scenario for the Nets.

fuck

Foot injuries and 7-footers are a terrible mix. It could make him untradeable unless he comes back and plays lights out this season

#75 swingin val

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:28 PM

Cubes has amnesty in his back pocket that he can use next summer to clear out another $8M (Marion/H'wood). Could easily have $20-25M in room

This doesnt help the point you were trying to make. 20-25 million is nowhere close to enough money for two max guys.

#76 Brickowski

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:41 PM

Lopez isn't coming back in 6-8 weeks. The Nets know it too, which is why they just traded a second round pick to Utah for Okur.

#77 nighthob

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:08 PM

Unnecessary tone. I'm not sure why you're talking about Mavs-Nets trade for D-Will. That's not their plan unless it's a sign and trade at the end of the season. Trading for Howard is more feasible but like I said upthread, unlikely.


Apparently the tone was necessary as you're continuing to argue. Trading for Dwight Howard isn't feasible at all as Roddy Beaubois & Dominique James is about the 79th best trade offer the Magic would receive for Howard. There's a -2,397,844% that that happens this year. That's barely feasible for Williams.

In terms of 2013 salary cap, there's creative ways Mavs can free up more space e.g. trading Marion/Haywood with Roddy B and Dominique Jones + picks in essentially a salary dump for Dallas either at the trading deadline or end of season and amnestying the other.


No, no one's paying $20 million for Roddy Beaubois & Dominique James. Not when they could pay $6 million for a pair of firsts to draft equivalent players. About their only option would be amnestying Marion and using the extend/release provision on Haywood (as his AAV would be less depending on how the final year is treated). But that would leave the Mavs with $24.4 million tied up in three players, add in around $3.8 million for the extend/release player and then nine cap holds and you get a cap figure of around $32 million, which means that each guy would need to agree to four year deals starting at $13 million/per. Not happening. They're not each leaving $20+ million on the table, from the reduced max level deal that comes in free agency to go to Dallas. Suggestions to the contrary are fantasies of Mavericks fans and sportswriters fueling those fantasies for attention.

#78 triniSox

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 03:52 AM

Apparently the tone was necessary as you're continuing to argue. Trading for Dwight Howard isn't feasible at all as Roddy Beaubois & Dominique James is about the 79th best trade offer the Magic would receive for Howard. There's a -2,397,844% that that happens this year. That's barely feasible for Williams.



No, no one's paying $20 million for Roddy Beaubois & Dominique James. Not when they could pay $6 million for a pair of firsts to draft equivalent players. About their only option would be amnestying Marion and using the extend/release provision on Haywood (as his AAV would be less depending on how the final year is treated). But that would leave the Mavs with $24.4 million tied up in three players, add in around $3.8 million for the extend/release player and then nine cap holds and you get a cap figure of around $32 million, which means that each guy would need to agree to four year deals starting at $13 million/per. Not happening. They're not each leaving $20+ million on the table, from the reduced max level deal that comes in free agency to go to Dallas. Suggestions to the contrary are fantasies of Mavericks fans and sportswriters fueling those fantasies for attention.

Let's just wait and see. You do understand 3/4 team scenarios right? Everyone can be made available barring Dirk this season including Terry and Kidd who can be shopped around this year in hopes of acquiring young talent. There are multiple scenarios in play. And currently Dallas ia one of the 4 teams Howard would sign an extension with so they presumably have a better chance than most of the league of trading for him. However, apparently, national basketball journalists Marc Stein and David Aldridge are attention-panderers and you know the truth. I'm not going to continue this argument and hijack the thread. Let's see how it plays out.

And for the last time it's Dominique Jones not James.

Edited by triniSox, 23 December 2011 - 04:19 AM.


#79 nighthob

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 09:12 AM

Terry and Kidd are irrelevant as they're expiring deals and don't impact Dallas' 2013 cap figure. There is no scenario in which Dallas will trade Shawn Marion for a player better than Andrew Bynum that doesn't involve a platoon of Gurkha commandoes kidnapping some poor team's owner & GM and torturing them into it. So, no, there will be no three team trade whereby the Mavs turn Shawn Marion & junk into Dwight Howard.

#80 triniSox

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:03 AM

Terry and Kidd are irrelevant as they're expiring deals and don't impact Dallas' 2013 cap figure. There is no scenario in which Dallas will trade Shawn Marion for a player better than Andrew Bynum that doesn't involve a platoon of Gurkha commandoes kidnapping some poor team's owner & GM and torturing them into it. So, no, there will be no three team trade whereby the Mavs turn Shawn Marion & junk into Dwight Howard.

They are not meaningless in a trade deadline deal during the 2012 season. If Dallas can get some value in the form of young talent attractive to Orlando in return for Kidd/Terry, then they'd be able to add that to their proposed trade package. The fact that they're expiring deals helps Dallas actually since their expiring deals may be attractive to teams looking to clear up cap space.

#81 nighthob

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 03:43 PM

They are not meaningless in a trade deadline deal during the 2012 season. If Dallas can get some value in the form of young talent attractive to Orlando in return for Kidd/Terry, then they'd be able to add that to their proposed trade package. The fact that they're expiring deals helps Dallas actually since their expiring deals may be attractive to teams looking to clear up cap space.


They aren't getting prospects for expiring deals. You have to package prospects with expiring deals to acquire other expensive players. In this case Dallas' prospects are two entirely fungible players that aren't worth a tithe of the worst package that Orlando will get offered for Howard. Unless both Howard and Williams elect to sign 4/57 deals with Dallas, rather than 4/76 deals with other teams (as opposed to the 4/98 they can get with their original teams) Dallas may end up with one or the other. But they aren't getting both.

#82 Cellar-Door


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Posted 23 December 2011 - 04:07 PM

They aren't getting prospects for expiring deals. You have to package prospects with expiring deals to acquire other expensive players. In this case Dallas' prospects are two entirely fungible players that aren't worth a tithe of the worst package that Orlando will get offered for Howard. Unless both Howard and Williams elect to sign 4/57 deals with Dallas, rather than 4/76 deals with other teams (as opposed to the 4/98 they can get with their original teams) Dallas may end up with one or the other. But they aren't getting both.

The argument Stein and Aldridge are making is this... that if the Mavs sign Howard as a free agent (or Dwill), they are in an excellent position to get DWill (or Howard), because if he wants to go there the Nets (or Magic) would rather do a sign and trade to get something back from the Mavs, than have him sign with another team with cap space and get nothing in return. THis is of course dependent on the two guys wanting to go there, but far from impossible. So the question becomes, where is the market of a team Dwill or Howard wants to play for enough to sign an extension, who is offering something that is worth more to their respective teams than a year of Howard/Dwill is worth? Doing it that way allows their current teams a shot at resigning them, then if not successful pick up a few assets (maybe picks, young players a sizeable trade exception?)

#83 nighthob

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:35 AM

The payroll problem doesn't go away. Because no one is paying $53 million for the privilege of getting two fungible prospects "just so that they get something", when they could work the same deal with one of those teams under the cap and get the same two fungible prospects and a giant traded player exception in the bargain. Dallas has room for one max player next summer. They aren't getting two without trading Dirk, which won't happen.

#84 Cellar-Door


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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:18 AM

The payroll problem doesn't go away. Because no one is paying $53 million for the privilege of getting two fungible prospects "just so that they get something", when they could work the same deal with one of those teams under the cap and get the same two fungible prospects and a giant traded player exception in the bargain. Dallas has room for one max player next summer. They aren't getting two without trading Dirk, which won't happen.

It's a sign and trade. The team has no leverage really. As to financial feasibility, amnestying either Haywood or Matrix and signing Howard then doing a sign and trade (not an actual S&T likely, but rather an option pickup and trade since it gets a total of 6 years with an extension compared to 4 on a real S&T) with NJ of say.... Lamar Odom, Roddy Beaubois, Dominique Jones and a pick of some kind. That works under the new CBA, and helps the Nets far more than letting him walk. Odom and Beaubois likely start for them, and Jones is a nice depth piece. Add in that Odom is a 8.2M expiring and that deal could easily get done if DWill lets them know he has no interest in resigning.

I doubt this happens, but it is possible under the CBA. I think Deron is staying with the Nets, and they will make a hard run at Dwight which he might accept.

Edit- not sure where $53M comes from, they need to take back $11.8M I believe for 2012. If most of that is expiring and talent is there it is much better. A team under the cap has no incentive to do a S&T, since under the new CBA S&Ts are restricted to 4 years while a FA signing can be 5, now someone might want a trade with just the option picked up, but not under the cap teams, the extra year isn't worth surrendering assets for.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 24 December 2011 - 01:22 AM.


#85 nighthob

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:59 PM

It's a sign and trade. The team has no leverage really.


In this instance? Of course they do. Unless both Howard and Williams are threatening to leave $40 million on the table it's just not happening. A month ago we were laughing at Knicks fans that expected one top 10 player to sacrifice $40 million to play for them, why are we humoring the Mavs fans that are expecting two guys to make that choice. Rich DeVos isn't paying $53 million to lose Dwight Howard.

If Howard wants to sign a 3/28 deal to play in Dallas (after they've signed Williams) then DeVos is going to say "Go ahead, I double dog dare you" and Dwight's agent will say "Dwight, why fuck around with Dallas when we can get more money out of half a dozen teams?" and he'll end up going to one of those, in the same sign & trade, only Orlando won't get stuck with a $53 million bill in the exchange. Have none of you learned nothing from the recent Paul affair? These guys don't like paying huge money for deadweight contracts in these sorts of forced trades.

Edit- not sure where $53M comes from


It's the combined total of the two contracts that Dallas needs to send out to add both Williams and Howard to their payroll. Trading expiring deals for Williams doesn't change that calculus. Look at it another way, Marion & Haywood are, for all intents and purposes, a max salary slot. There just isn't room for four max salaries on a payroll at the same time, especially when one of them is being paid $21 million.

Edited by nighthob, 25 December 2011 - 12:01 AM.


#86 Cellar-Door


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Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:19 AM

In this instance? Of course they do. Unless both Howard and Williams are threatening to leave $40 million on the table it's just not happening. A month ago we were laughing at Knicks fans that expected one top 10 player to sacrifice $40 million to play for them, why are we humoring the Mavs fans that are expecting two guys to make that choice. Rich DeVos isn't paying $53 million to lose Dwight Howard.

If Howard wants to sign a 3/28 deal to play in Dallas (after they've signed Williams) then DeVos is going to say "Go ahead, I double dog dare you" and Dwight's agent will say "Dwight, why fuck around with Dallas when we can get more money out of half a dozen teams?" and he'll end up going to one of those, in the same sign & trade, only Orlando won't get stuck with a $53 million bill in the exchange. Have none of you learned nothing from the recent Paul affair? These guys don't like paying huge money for deadweight contracts in these sorts of forced trades.



It's the combined total of the two contracts that Dallas needs to send out to add both Williams and Howard to their payroll. Trading expiring deals for Williams doesn't change that calculus. Look at it another way, Marion & Haywood are, for all intents and purposes, a max salary slot. There just isn't room for four max salaries on a payroll at the same time, especially when one of them is being paid $21 million.

You just quoted my post without reading it which is impressive. I directly spelled out a scenario under which the Mavs can give them both max contracts within the confines of the new CBA, it involves 1 amnesty, 1 signing and 1 trade. It also doesn't require either guy to take less money than any other destination, so with the added savings on taxes in TX they actually make more in takehome than anywhere else except FLA.
As to the $53M no. They have room for 1 max regardless, the second which I assume would be Dwill needs to have 11-12M go back to Jersey, I pointed out in my previous post that would likely be Odom, Beaubois and Jones. Is it likely? Probably not, however it is certainly POSSIBLE. Also you are incorrect in your reasoning that a sign and trade gets players more money, it is less under the new CBA as sign and trade contracts are limited to 4 years.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 25 December 2011 - 12:28 AM.


#87 nighthob

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:43 AM

You just quoted my post without reading it which is impressive. I directly spelled out a scenario under which the Mavs can give them both max contracts within the confines of the new CBA, it involves 1 amnesty, 1 signing and 1 trade. It also doesn't require either guy to take less money than any other destination, so with the added savings on taxes in TX they actually make more in takehome than anywhere else except FLA.


No, I read it, but as you didn't bother to actually look at the Mavs 2013 payroll I just ignored it. Because they actually wouldn't be able to sign a max player under your scenario. Again, let's go back to the numbers.

The Mavs have $41.4 million tied up in five players for 2013 , half of that in one player. If they pick up Odom's option (in your sign and sign & trade scenario) they would have $49.6 million tied up in six players. Add in six minimum cap holds and suddenly their cap figure is around $54 million. Meaning that any contract they offer their prize free agent starts at... $5-$6 million. Why are Howard or Williams signing for that sort of money again?

OK, they decline Odom's option and now they're back down to $41.4 million, add in seven minimum cap holds and that cap figure gets closer to $47 million. Meaning that Howard or Williams is signing one of those contracts that the Knicks' fans were fantasizing about CP3 signing for the privilege of playing there. OK, so, they amnesty Haywood and now they're down to around $33 million, add in eight minimum cap holds and now we're closer to $39 million. But, hey, we finally have the money to sign one of the two big free agents to a max deal. But we're kinda shit outta luck on the other.

Why? Because Deron Williams (assuming they sign Dwight first as in your scenario) can't really threaten New Jersey with regard to Dallas, because he'd need to play in Dallas on an MLE deal for three years before he could sign a max contract with the Mavs. No leverage. So what happens in this version of the scenario is that Deron's agent says "Deron, why are we fucking around with Dallas when there's a huge line of clubs with enough cap space to give you a max deal?" and then he either goes back to the Nyets or signs with a team with cap space.

#88 Cellar-Door


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Posted 25 December 2011 - 12:53 AM

No, I read it, but as you didn't bother to actually look at the Mavs 2013 payroll I just ignored it. Because they actually wouldn't be able to sign a max player under your scenario. Again, let's go back to the numbers.

The Mavs have $41.4 million tied up in five players for 2013 , half of that in one player. If they pick up Odom's option (in your sign and sign & trade scenario) they would have $49.6 million tied up in six players. Add in six minimum cap holds and suddenly their cap figure is around $54 million. Meaning that any contract they offer their prize free agent starts at... $5-$6 million. Why are Howard or Williams signing for that sort of money again?

OK, they decline Odom's option and now they're back down to $41.4 million, add in seven minimum cap holds and that cap figure gets closer to $47 million. Meaning that Howard or Williams is signing one of those contracts that the Knicks' fans were fantasizing about CP3 signing for the privilege of playing there. OK, so, they amnesty Haywood and now they're down to around $33 million, add in eight minimum cap holds and now we're closer to $39 million. But, hey, we finally have the money to sign one of the two big free agents to a max deal. But we're kinda shit outta luck on the other.

Why? Because Deron Williams (assuming they sign Dwight first as in your scenario) can't really threaten New Jersey with regard to Dallas, because he'd need to play in Dallas on an MLE deal for three years before he could sign a max contract with the Mavs. No leverage. So what happens in this version of the scenario is that Deron's agent says "Deron, why are we fucking around with Dallas when there's a huge line of clubs with enough cap space to give you a max deal?" and then he either goes back to the Nyets or signs with a team with cap space.

The Mavs aren't the leverage. IF he is not willing to sign in NJ the Nets best interest is to accomodate him going where he wants. The leverage comes from the option to sign with a team other than the Mavs as his second option. Which would Jersey rather... that he sign elsewhere and they get nothing? Or that they trade him to DAL his first choice and get back Odom's expiring, Beaubois and Jones at short money, a big trade exception and possibly a pick?

You keep saying it isn't possible, when you just articulated, as I did that it is possible under he cap. He simply has to want to go to Dallas, and not want under any circumstances to stay in NJ. Now whether that is something he wants is up in the air, but you just showed how it is clearly possible.

Edit- Shit I did mess up the math, they would also have to stretch whichever of Matrix/Haywood they don't amnesty. The cap holds would likely be lower as they would have a 2nd rounder in one of them making less than the vets minimum, and Wright's option in under 1M. But it would be tight, and it couldn't happen if revenue is down.

Edited by Cellar-Door, 25 December 2011 - 01:00 AM.


#89 nighthob

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 01:07 AM

The Mavs aren't the leverage. IF he is not willing to sign in NJ the Nets best interest is to accomodate him going where he wants. The leverage comes from the option to sign with a team other than the Mavs as his second option. Which would Jersey rather... that he sign elsewhere and they get nothing? Or that they trade him to DAL his first choice and get back Odom's expiring, Beaubois and Jones at short money, a big trade exception and possibly a pick?


Again, if the Mavs pick up Odom's option they don't have the room to sign any max players. Their only avenue to one consists of declining Odom's option and amnestying either Marion or Haywood. No matter where Williams goes it's going to be in the form of a sign & trade, so his desire to go to Dallas isn't really pertinent. If they trade for Williams in-season (and the same problem, namely that Beaubois/James will be the 73rd best offer the Nyets get for Williams, occurs) then the Mavs enter the summer with $59 million tied up in six players, add in the cap holds and all they have is the MLE for Howard.

You keep saying it isn't possible, when you just articulated, as I did that it is possible under he cap. He simply has to want to go to Dallas, and not want under any circumstances to stay in NJ.


And New Jersey replies "Great, have fun." Because he isn't signing a 3/15 deal with the Mavs and leaving $80 million on the table. He may get angry, and pout. But ultimately he'll either sign with a team under the cap or re-sign with the Nyets. Because he just won't be leaving tens of millions on the table to sign in Dallas.

Edited by nighthob, 25 December 2011 - 01:08 AM.


#90 CaptainLaddie


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Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:51 AM

Can you two go make out?