1222 replies to this topic

[dolomite133]

As a Celtics fan, my first and foremost concern is making this team a contender into the future. That means planning for life after the big three (hopefully without an extended, i.e. decade long, rebuilding process). So feel free to throw shit at the wall and make suggestions for how this team can remain a contender past this season. Since this topic infuriates some on this board, I've made it a separate topic.

Edited by dolomite133, 09 December 2011 - 12:53 AM.

[Mike in CT]

As a Celtics fan, my first and foremost concern is making this team a contender into the future. That means planning for life after the big three (hopefully without an extended, i.e. decade long, rebuilding process). So feel free to throw shit at the wall and making suggestions for how this team can remain a contender past this season. Since this topic infuriates some on this board, I've made it a separate topic.

If the Celtics aren't looking too good by the trade deadline, I'd ask the Clippers (assuming they are doing well) if they want some combo of Ray, Garnett, Pierce for that uprotected Minnesotta #1 pick. The Clipper seem to want to find a player or two to make Blake happy, but they could very easily get shut out on CP3, Dwight, and Deron Williams.

Garnett and Pierce for Kaman, Mo Williams, Gomes, and the Minnesotta pick. It would work well for the cheap Clippers going forward.

You start over with Rondo, that high lotto pick, and the rest of your picks. Do the best you can.

You trade Rondo when/if the right deal comes along in the meantime.

Edited by Mike in CT, 09 December 2011 - 12:51 AM.

[Brickowski]

I would be keeping a very close eye on Greg Oden, who will be an unrestricted free agent next year. And if you want the best shot at getting Oden (assuming he's healthy and you want him), trade Rondo to Memphis for Mike Conley and O.J. Mayo.

[dolomite133]

This season is looking like it could be a complete disaster. I know many of you don't share my sense of alarm. But given that the next two drafts are expected to be strong (right?), maybe we ought to trade our assets for picks in 2012 and 2013. I'm sure there are contenders that would be willing to deal picks around the trade deadline for a half-season rental of KG or Ray.

Since we are going to miss out on the major free agent prizes next summer then maybe the draft is our best option to land a franchise player.

[Jed Zeppelin]

The Celtics are going to be in the playoff picture at the trade deadline. There's no way they trade KG and/or Ray + a playoff appearance for a couple of lotto tickets.

[NYCSox]

The Celtics are going to be in the playoff picture at the trade deadline. There's no way they trade KG and/or Ray + a playoff appearance for a couple of lotto tickets.

QFT. They are going to win the friggin division barring significant injuries. Why would anyone want to punt now?

Yeah the chances of winning the title aren't very good but they aren't a .500 team either which is the point where you would start to think about selling off assets.

[mahky bellhorn]

We can't even get anything out of KG, because nobody has enough deadweight contracts to match his $21M.

I think the best possible trade we could make is like KG to Orlando for Turkoglu, Duhon, Randerson, Orton, and a 1st rounder. No thank you.

Edited by mahky bellhorn, 16 December 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

And for whatever it's worth, during the 1998-1999 strike shortened season, the 3 teams with the best records in the league were the league's 3 oldest teams. So a shortened season may not necessarily be a death knell for the C's. In fact, I still expect them to win the Atlantic.

[Mike in CT]

Yeah the chances of winning the title aren't very good but they aren't a .500 team either which is the point where you would start to think about selling off assets.

Trading still useful players early is about speeding up the rebuilding process.

Do you really think Wyc, Danny "I would have traded Bird and McHale when they were still a playoff relevant team", and Doc want to go through another prolonged rebuilding period?

This team is very close to being Rondo and a fast declining Pierce.

We can go for cap space next year but unless Deron or Dwight is signing with us, there is nobody unrestricted worth pursuing. Maybe not even for the next 2 years based on the awful list of options I've seen. By the time you find a 2nd star, Rondo's contract is nearing its end.

So you can keep the band together and just string it out to mediocrity, but you are basically assuring yourself of some lean lean years. You can't trade for stars when the only asset you have is Rondo and the Clipper pick. You can't sign elite free agents when there are none coming available (and will they even want to sign here?).

[Brickowski]

The original post asked for "farfetched" ideas for rebuilding after the end of this season, not before.

Edited by Brickowski, 16 December 2011 - 03:22 PM.

[dolomite133]

The original post asked for "farfetched" ideas for rebuilding after the end of this season, not before.

The rules have changed.

As for 1998-1999, G&MB is almost right. The two best regular season records belonged to older teams (Spurs and Jazz). The third best team was the very young Trailblazers.

However the two teams in the finals that season were the Spurs (yeah, they were old, but they were led by a 22-year-old Tim Duncan) and the Knicks (who were mostly young except for 36-year-old Patrick Ewing). The Celtics have neither a young future all-star center nor a rotation of a half-dozen young, talented players surrounding an aging Kevin Garnett. Our best comp that season might be the Jazz, who lost to an extremely young and talented Blazers team in the conference semifinals.

Another factor to consider. The 1998-1999 post-lockout season started a month later and was 16 games shorter than the upcoming season. I'm betting that extra month will hurt older teams even more.

Edited by dolomite133, 16 December 2011 - 04:08 PM.

[ishmael]

In response to Mike in CT above: I feel your frustration and fear. That said, the Celtics will be in a situation more comparable to Indiana next year than Charlotte or a really hopeless team. With Rondo (anywhere from borderline all star to top 5 point guard depending on how the year shapes up) and Pierce (a solid veteran on an expiring contract) they at least have a few good players to build around for 2012-2013. They'll have Brooks, Moore, and Bradley on rookie contracts as well as Brandon Bass signed as a backup PF. They're likely to have two picks in the 15-25 range in the draft. They'll also have about $24 million in cap space. That right there could build you a package for an unhappy star or a sign and trade for any of the superstars that do make it to free agency. What do I think is likely to happen? Danny probably looks to sign a good, but not great free agent (a la David West) at big $$$, but short term. If KG or Ray look like they have life, they'll also get one year deals at decent money. If Green shows some promise, he could earn his way into a nice payday.

Basically, I think the radical rebuild is unlikely to happen. However, if Danny did want to do it, the best way to go would be to amnesty Pierce and start taking on decent players with terrible contracts (think Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, maybe Joe Johnson, or Nene in a year) along with acquiring a future first rounder in each trade. You could add a total of 3-5 draft picks over the next few years, while keeping the talent level on the court good enough to sell tickets, but bad enough to still be in the lottery. Lose, without looking like you're trying to lose. That would be my advice, because fans in Boston are fickle and do not want to deal with a full on rebuild...

[NYCSox]

Even with today's news re: Green I don't think it's time to punt. But the margin for error has now really shrunk.

If things are bad say at the 40 game mark, I'd be very open to some kind of sell off.

[Reardons Beard]

The guy I want to go and get is in Minny and can play the three or the four.

Michael Beasley.

Loved the offensive explosion last year. Kid played in Fitchburg for a season during high school and, when properly motivated, can takeover a game.

How do we make it happen? I don't know - but if we're looking for that post Big Three fixture to pair with Rondo, an aging Pierce, and a young core this is the guy I would want on my team. Still only 22 but has big league experience, seasoning, and if you put him under the right conditions this will continue to be a playoff team - granted there are other gaps they'll have to fill...plus Minny has a logjam at SF and PF so maybe there's room to make it happen.

And by the way: Doc knows he can play.

"Offensively, I've been a big believer in him," Rivers said before his Celtics beat the Timberwolves 96-93 on Monday night. "I just think he can score. I said it two years ago: I think one day he may lead the league in scoring. He just knows how to score the ball. He has a Carmelo ability to score the ball."

"He's a matchup problem every night," Rivers said. "He's tough for 3s [small forwards] to guard because of his size. He's too quick for 4s [power forwards]. And he can shoot. Obviously that's the key. He has quickness and a shot at that size. That makes him tough to guard."

Edited by Reardons Beard, 20 December 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[letbuchholzplay]

Since this is far fetched I am going to blow it up...I actually think this what they should do by the way...First, trade Rondo. His value is extremely high and probably the highest it will be. Once that step in gone he is a useless player. He can't shoot thus once the hard play he plays with catches up to him he will be out of the league in a second. Not like he can use a shot fake? Who would respect that? Just think you could take advantage here and get a very good player for him for a team that needs a PG. Second, teams need a Ray Allen or Paul Pierce...Once again why not? We need youth and athleticism. I love the Beasley Idea. I love Jrue From Phili. I know Pierce is a lifer but he may accept a deal to a contender. He is from LA what about Gordan or Bledsoe(don't know which one wasn't traded) I think next year is an absolute wash. The unrestricted free agents are not that good. So if you can go get some young players for this year and then also have cap room to go after a few restricted free agents then maybe in two years you are ready to roll again. But we need to see an influx of talented youth and catch lightning in a bottle that one pans out to be a stud...maybe it is Beasley? who knows

[Brickowski]

Earlier I proposed trading Rondo and however many first round picks it would take to MN for Beasley and Rubio.

The guy I want on that roster is Rubio. Sure, 90% of the world is predicting that Rubio will flop in the NBA, but I'm in the other 10%.

Edited by Brickowski, 20 December 2011 - 05:03 PM.

[mahky bellhorn]

Beasley sucks, all he does is scores a bunch of points at mediocre efficiency. I'd take him on the roster to fill the Jeff Green spot, but I doubt he's available for flotsam and I definitely wouldn't want to either give up a 1st rounder for him or pay him next offseason.

Rubio's overhyped, Rondo's like his absolute ceiling so I don't understand the point of that trade for either team?

edit- it actually makes a lot of sense for the Wolves since they would be raping Boston pretty hard.

Edited by mahky bellhorn, 20 December 2011 - 08:06 PM.

[Brickowski]

Rubio's overhyped, Rondo's like his absolute ceiling...

That is certainly the majority view. Time will tell.

[Sprowl]

If the team is blown up at the trading deadline (unlikely, but conceivable), then Ainge will go back to his talent-maximizing ways. When faced with a sub-.500 roster, Trader Danny takes on talented risks and sacrifices character and complementary role players to teams that have a real use for them. His archetypal trade: Ricky Davis, flotsam, and a pick for Eric Williams, Tony Battie, and (unintentionally) Jim O'Brien. The coach has to deal with continual re-incorporation of talented head cases. Doc Rivers seems up to that task, though why he'd want the job of rebuilding the Celtics is beyond me.

Rebuilding means finding the elite talents to build around. They come in the draft, or by acquiring somebody else's problem. Who are the talented head cases whose maturation is in doubt, but still possible and worth gambling on? Michael Beasley is certainly high on the list. Rubio is another probable failure with a high ceiling.

Jeff Green's diagnosis means a significantly higher probability that the blow-it-up scenario takes place by the trading deadline. I'd put the odds at 20%.

[swingin val]

If Danny is going to blow up the team, he better get somebody better than Michael fucking Beasley.

[mahky bellhorn]

If Danny is going to blow up the team, he better get somebody better than Michael fucking Beasley.

thisthisthis

[snowmanny]

Ainge IS very likely to blow it up even if the Celtics are cruising towards a four or five seed. This is the guy who took over while the team was in the playoffs and pronounced them DOA. I don't think he's much interested in just making the second round of the playoffs. If he thinks that's the best he can get with this group then I believe they will be gone sooner rather than later.

[dolomite133]

Another potential trade target might be Evan Turner. Seems like he is mired in a platoon situation. The 76ers might be willing to give him up in a three-team deal which would involve us sending Ray Allen to a contender (meanwhile the contender would send a young 3/4/5 to the 76ers, who have more need there). Such a deal would also entail the Celtics getting back another $5M player and maybe a pick.

[lexrageorge]

Ainge has already tried to trade Rondo, and we all should know by now what the asking price was for him. So, there's no way Ainge is going to turn around and "Joe Thornton" Rondo for a couple of spare parts and low 1st round draft picks just for the sake of blowing up the team. That's not a recipe for success unless you hope to collect ping pong balls for the next decade (been there, done that).

I do agree that if a deadline deal is to be had this year, it's Allen that will be the one to go. His skills are the easiest to slot into a contender wannabe. But that only happens if Ainge truly feels that the team is no better than first round playoff fodder. A lot of folks felt the 2009-10 team was going to exit the playoffs in the 2nd round, and they ended up being 13 minutes from winning the trophy.

[nighthob]

The only trophy the 2012 Celtics will be 13 minutes from winning is Miss Congeniality.

[Brickowski]

The only trophy the 2012 Celtics will be 13 minutes from winning is Miss Congeniality.

I'm not buying this assessment-- yet. And playoff seeding is not terribly relevant for this team, so long as it makes the playoffs. The key factor will be the team's health. If the vets are hobbling as the March 15 trade deadline approaches, we could see a major dismantling.

[nighthob]

My problem here is that Pierce is already hobbling. With a 66 games in 16 weeks schedule there's no way that Garnett, Pierce, and O'Neal are surviving in tact. Especially O'Neal. The over/under on O'Neal's games missed to injury is 40 and I'm seriously contemplating the over. As of now Boston's the second best team in the Atlantic Division, and could sink as low as fourth given the circumstances (as the New Jersey/Orlando rumors continue to percolate and Philly seems primed for a big leap forward). Boston is looking at winning four series without home court advantage for a title. Sorry, not happening.

[BigSoxFan]

I'm not buying this assessment-- yet. And playoff seeding is not terribly relevant for this team, so long as it makes the playoffs. The key factor will be the team's health. If the vets are hobbling as the March 15 trade deadline approaches, we could see a major dismantling.

If the vets are hobbling, who is going to trade for them?

[lexrageorge]

The options Ainge had/has were/are as follows:

1.) Improve the team, building around the current nucleus of the Big 3 + Rondo (or other star acquired for Rondo). Ainge tried that multiple times (Chris Paul, David West), and really should get kudos here for giving it his best shot. Unfortunately, the market was thin, the C's were strapped, and this option is now pretty much closed.

2.) Stay with the core, build the bench, and hope for help the trading deadline. This is the current course.

3.) Blow the whole the up. The problem is that right now the trade market would pretty much guarantee that Ainge would get back pennies on the peso, even for marketable guys like Rondo. There's a chance this could change at the deadline. The market for a Ray Allen or even a Paul Pierce could be much better on March 15th than today. If anything, it's unlikely to be worse, barring injury. Swapping Rondo for Michael Beasley solves nothing, so that ain't happening.

4.) Blow up part of the team, breaking up the core at the trading deadline, with an eye to going into the offseason with salary cap dollars to spend. Again, perhaps they can get someone in March that allows them to make the big splash next summer. It's difficult, but not as impossible as some here are making it to be.

[Brickowski]

If the vets are hobbling, who is going to trade for them?

Teams looking to get out from expensive long term contracts in exchange for expiring contracts. You'd be loking at players like Biedrins, Tyrus Thomas, Okafor, Milicic, maybe David Lee if you're lucky.

[nighthob]

4.) Blow up part of the team, breaking up the core at the trading deadline, with an eye to going into the offseason with salary cap dollars to spend. Again, perhaps they can get someone in March that allows them to make the big splash next summer. It's difficult, but not as impossible as some here are making it to be.

At the moment it looks like there will be no free agent market this summer (because the smart money's on Howard to Brookjersey which takes the only two names of note off the market), so the odds are that there's no option of rebuilding that way. At present Boston has two mid to low first round picks coming, so there's no rebuilding path there, either. The guys they draft in 2012 are highly unlikely to be cornerstone players.

That means that they either just string together another team for 2013 and roll over their cap space again for the ensuing summer free agent market or make a real move at the 2012 trade deadline. Those are literally their only choices at the moment. The Rondo/Pierce/roleplayer Celtics are no better than a one & done seven seed (and that's their ceiling). So Ainge has some very hard choices to make. Dealing Rondo for supporting cast players at the trade deadline and accepting the results (i.e. missing the playoffs and a pick in the 10-14 range) might be his best option at the moment, because it opens up cap space to take back contracts that other teams are looking to shed and gives them the opportunity to make deals like the Baron Davis trade that Cleveland made last season.

Edited by nighthob, 21 December 2011 - 12:45 PM.

[letbuchholzplay]

If the vets are hobbling, who is going to trade for them?

I agree with this one hundred percent. I think a decision to do this has to be made fairly quickly by what you have seen in practice and through the first 10 or so games. If you see a plodding and slow team...do it fast!

[Reardons Beard]

Just to clarify my argument for Beasley - under no scenario did I advocate "blowing it up" and trading Rondo for him.

Beasley would be a complementary scorer on this team, but you'd want a bonafide star to pair with him and Rondo.

[nighthob]

Trading the vets is, really, a "blow it up for ping pong balls" strategy. Garnett & Allen really only have value to contenders, and all contenders have to offer are low firsts and nevergonnabes in exchange. The one bare possibility, until Josh Smith showed up in Atlanta's training camp at 225, more explosive than ever and sporting a mid-range jumper, was a deal with Atlanta. But I suspect that boat has sailed because if Smith really is finally getting consistent with his mid-range shot his contract is a bargain.

[BigSoxFan]

Teams looking to get out from expensive long term contracts in exchange for expiring contracts. You'd be loking at players like Biedrins, Tyrus Thomas, Okafor, Milicic, maybe David Lee if you're lucky.

But why would we want those expensive long term contracts if we're blowing things up? A mid-to-late first rounder is not worth the lack of financial flexibility. Essentially, I see Ainge staying the course because if our guys are healthy, we'll be pretty good. If they're not, we won't be able to get much of anything for them.

[dolomite133]

But why would we want those expensive long term contracts if we're blowing things up? A mid-to-late first rounder is not worth the lack of financial flexibility. Essentially, I see Ainge staying the course because if our guys are healthy, we'll be pretty good. If they're not, we won't be able to get much of anything for them.

To maintain our current spending levels in preparation for a future trade, to a team looking to an expiring contract. It's kicking the can down the road.

[Brickowski]

IMHO Golden State will be looking to shed salary, especailly now after this latest sexual harrassment thing involving Monta Ellis. And while the UFA pickings will be slim this June, there are some interesting RFAs including some very solid players like George Hill and Roy Hibbert, plus guys with "upside" such the aforementionned Beasley, Marreese Speights and JaVale McGee.

[Jed Zeppelin]

How often do RFAs change teams? Teams pretty much always match offer sheets for anyone worth keeping.

[dolomite133]

IMHO Golden State will be looking to shed salary, especailly now after this latest sexual harrassment thing involving Monta Ellis. And while the UFA pickings will be slim this June, there are some interesting RFAs including some very solid players like George Hill and Roy Hibbert, plus guys with "upside" such the aforementionned Beasley, Marreese Speights and JaVale McGee.

I predict Hibbert gets overpaid for the next five years.

[swingin val]

Teams looking to get out from expensive long term contracts in exchange for expiring contracts. You'd be loking at players like Biedrins, Tyrus Thomas, Okafor, Milicic, maybe David Lee if you're lucky.

Why the hell would we trade an expiring Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett for shitty players with shitty contracts? That makes no sense. If the goal is to blow the team up, you dont saddle yourself with 27 million for 3 years for Biedrins

[Brickowski]

David Lee isn't a shitty player. I'd love to see him in Boston.

IMHO, rebuilding isn't finding some magic bullet.--let's assume that the Celtics aren't going to get Dwight Howard or Kevin Love. Rebuilding is a process. First, you have to draft well, and with a few exceptions (e.g. Marcus Banks) Ainge has been pretty good at that. Even in horrible horrible draft years like 2000, there are future all-stars taken after pick 20 (in 2000 it was Michael Redd). Second, you have to find young players who have been underperforming on their current teams-- Beasley is an obvious example and so is Speights--but who might thrive in a different environment with different coaches. Third, you have to look at players who will function well as a group and mesh with the guys you already have (e.g. Rondo) as opposed to being a random collection of players, like the Bobcats.

For my money the 1# rebuilding player who will be available next summer is Greg Oden, who will be unrestricted. Very high risk, but potentially a high reward.

Edited by Brickowski, 21 December 2011 - 05:22 PM.

[dolomite133]

David Lee isn't a shitty player. I'd love to see him in Boston.

IMHO, rebuilding isn't finding some magic bullet.--let's assume that the Celtics aren't going to get Dwight Howard or Kevin Love. Rebuilding is a process. First, you have to draft well, and with a few exceptions (e.g. Marcus Banks) Ainge has been pretty good at that. Even in horrible horrible draft years like 2000, there are future all-stars taken after pick 20 (in 2000 it was Michael Redd). Second, you have to find young players who have been underperforming on their current teams-- Beasley is an obvious example and so is Speights--but who might thrive in a different environment with different coaches. Third, you have to look at players who will function well as a group and mesh with the guys you already have (e.g. Rondo) as opposed to being a random collection of playders, like the Bobcats.

For my money the 1# rebuilding player who will be available next summer is Greg Oden, who will be unrestricted. Very high risk, but potentially a high reward.

I was with you up until you mentioned Oden. There is zero evidence he will ever be healthy. Given his health problems I'll be pleasantly surprised if he ever develops into a backup player. I agree he's high risk/high reward but he's not someone I'd hitch my hopes to. I consider him a gamble to HELP my team, not MAKE my team.

[dolomite133]

Why the hell would we trade an expiring Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett for shitty players with shitty contracts? That makes no sense. If the goal is to blow the team up, you dont saddle yourself with 27 million for 3 years for Biedrins

It's not the sexiest option. But it fits in with a rebuilding strategy I mentioned above.

To maintain our current spending levels in preparation for a future trade, to a team looking to an expiring contract. It's kicking the can down the road.

[BigSoxFan]

David Lee is a complementary piece on a team with championship aspirations. I just don't see the point of trading for the likes of him, especially since they'd prevent you from bottoming out. We all know that getting stuck in mediocrity is the worst possible scenario. It's taken the Pacers almost a decade to finally begin to look like a team that's worth anything. Rebuilding is most successful when you build around a current star and then add pieces via these kinds of trades or by adding a couple young stars via the draft and then building around them. The Lakers did the former. The Bulls, Thunder, etc. did the latter. Obviously, a lot of luck is required. You could have added Portland to this list if it weren't for some bad knees of Roy and Oden.

Ultimately, I want the Celtics to squeeze a little more out of this group or just blow it up completely. You can't tippy toe around the "blowing it up" strategy. Either you keep the entire Big 3...or you trade them all. Or at least KG/Ray if you want to keep Pierce for legacy/PR purposes.

[dolomite133]

No thoughts on Evan Turner?

[Brickowski]

No thoughts on Evan Turner?

Complementary player. Too skinny at the moment.

I'm old fashionned. You need to start rebuilding with players 6-9 or better who can score the ball and rebound. Wing players are a dime a dozen unless you have the next MJ-- which Turner isn't.

[Brickowski]

David Lee is a complementary piece on a team with championship aspirations.

So is the 36 year-old Ray Allen. Which player would you rather have next year? The problem with Lee is that you have to commit to paying him for the next 4-5 years.But if you aren't willing to pay Lee, you have to pay someone else. So choose your poison.



Alas, capspace never made a basket or snagged a rebound. If you want to win, capspace has to be turned into real live players.

Edited by Brickowski, 21 December 2011 - 05:30 PM.

[BigSoxFan]

So is the 36 year-old Ray Allen. Which player would you rather have next year? The problem with Lee is that you have to commit to paying him for the next 4-5 years.But if you aren't willing to pay Lee, you have to pay someone else. So choose your poison.

Alas, capspace never made a basket or snagged a rebound. If you want to win, capspace has to be turned into real live players.

I either want the Celtics to add pieces around the Big 3 (David West would have been perfect) or lose every game by like 50. Adding pretty good players on bad contracts is going to keep you mediocre indefinitely. The only reason why the Celtics were able to get out of the death spiral was because Jefferson turned out to be a steal and we bottomed out in the 2006-2007 season enough to use that pick to get Ray Allen, which helped us get KG. But that was the perfect storm of situational luck. The same year that KG/Allen were in limbo, we just so happened to have a top 5 pick and a young up-and-coming frontcourt player. We won't be so fortunate next time.

[Brickowski]

I don't think David West was perfect. For starters, he's 31 years old. He would be a stopgap, like Xavier McDaniel. West would have been great for THIS year, assuming that you can win without a center. But not beyond.

If you want to blow it up completely and have a truly crappy team in hopes of getting a cornerstone in the draft, well, the Celtics tried that twice and failed both times (in 1996 and again in 2007). Besides, there is no true conerstone in the 2012 draft, unless it's the 18 y\ear-old Andre Drummond. I'd rather gamble on Oden.

Edited by Brickowski, 21 December 2011 - 06:32 PM.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I would rather keep KG and Ray until they are 45 than pay for Lee or Biedrins or someone like that. I question whether Lee even is a complementary piece for a team with championship hopes. He is a big that plays a lot of minutes and can't play defense. That's prett much automatically disqualifying.