1222 replies to this topic

[BigSoxFan]

Outside the top 3-5 picks? You're just praying that you find a solid starter.

No arguments here. But just look at the 5-7 range last year - Valanciunas, Vesely, Biyombo - all guys who are raw but have "upside". I think Sullinger should fall somewhere in the 5-10 range and he'll have a solid but unspectacular career. I also wouldn't be surprised if Sullinger fell a little bit due to athletic ability/weight concerns.

[ivanvamp]

This kid reminds me a lot of Rashard Griffith; prototypical size and athleticism but nothing else that indicates he is going to be a beast in the NBA. Then again, my recollections of Griffith are pretty hazy as I only saw a few of his games at Wisconsin.

Besides the obvious guys (Davis, Gilchrist, Robinson), Mike Moser is someone I like for the Celtics late in the first round or early in the second. Definitely a bit undersized to play the 4, but think that he could develop into a nice 3. Should the Celtics keep Rondo, Moser would be a nice complement to RR in the open court.

There are some pretty good players probably available in the 2nd round. For example:

PG - Tu Holloway, Xavier
SF - Jae Crowder, Marquette
SF - Hollis Thompson, Georgetown
SG - John Jenkins, Vanderbilt
SG - Doron Lamb, Kentucky
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom, Marquette
SF - Kris Joseph, Syracuse
SG - William Buford, Ohio St

Maybe some of these guys pan out to be something pretty good.

[BigSoxFan]

Speaking of Vanderbilt, I've watched a lot of their games. Festus Ezeli is a developing big man who has NBA size/athleticism and good defensive skills. If we have a late 1st, I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him.

[fairlee76]

Speaking of Vanderbilt, I've watched a lot of their games. Festus Ezeli is a developing big man who has NBA size/athleticism and good defensive skills. If we have a late 1st, I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on him.

I meant to post this after watching him play against Anthony Davis last Saturday. Ezeli more than held his own, a much physically stronger player than Davis at this point though who knows where Davis will be when he is 22/23.

[nighthob]

No arguments here. But just look at the 5-7 range last year - Valanciunas, Vesely, Biyombo - all guys who are raw but have "upside".

The problem with using the 2011 draft as a reference point is that everyone outside of Kyrie Irving were considered "raw but have upside". And this is why Sullinger is going in the top ten. You may not have the mythical upside, but you have someone that isn't likely to bust out and projects out well to "NBA starter".

[Sheets]

I had the Clipper/Kings game on in the background tonight and I heard something very interesting. Clippers announcers Ralph Lawler and Michael Smith, two guys I really like and respect, were talking trade rumors. They ackowledged that rumors of Rondo moving were probably exagerated, but Ray was possible trade bait (to the Clippers), and there were rumblings of Pierce possibly being moved- perhaps to the Clippers (who he'd be an incredible fit for), the Lakers (who could certainly use him at that position), and the Rockets.

If Paul Pierce was to leave and go anywhere, I think I'd be happiest if he went to The Clippers. Reasons: 1.) He'd get another couple shots at a title over the next few years, 2.) He's from LA, and it would probably make being traded easier on him, and 3.) I watch most Clippers games and would love to watch him on that team (I'll say it again, what an incredible fit. He's exactly what the Clippers need).

The Clippers have plenty of talent. I'm just not sure what combo of talent/draft picks/expiring contracts fits into Danny's master plan, whatever that may be.

edit: After a quick Google search I see that these reports are being credited to A. Sherrod Blakely. http://www.csnne.com...280&feedID=3352 And apparently it was first reported almost 12 hours ago- sorry, but I haven't heard about anything but Rondo the last few days. To actually hear the Clippers guys bring it up made my ears perk up.

This is how I feel about most "insiders" (Chris Brousard) and their trade rumors:



Throw it against the wall and see what sticks.

Edited by Sheets, 02 March 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[BucketOBalls]

The downside of trading with the Clippers is
1)The Celtics already have their 1st round pick
2)Making them better just reduces the value of that pick even more.

Pierce may be the only guy it could make sense to trade them, as it gets rid of his salary for the next few years. Even then, I'm not sure what the C's could get back. Maybe ask for a 1st a few years from now, like when Donald Sterling realizes he has to pay both Chris Paul and Blake Griffen?

[Brickowski]

The Clips aren't going to trade Paul, Griffin or Jordan. After those three players, the Clips have nothing the Celtics would want in exchange for either Pierce or Allen.
The Lakers aren't going to trade Kobe, Bynum or Gasol for Pierce or Allen, either directly or in a multi-team deal. So the chance of a deal with either LA team looks pretty slim to me.

Latest rumor on Hoopshype is that the Celtics are targeting Josh Smith. That makes no sense to me-- Smith is a poor fit for Rivers' offense, even if Smith did play with Rondo at Oak Hill. Marvin Williams might be a better target.

The Globe is reporting that Ainge intends to rebuild on the fly without becoming a lotto team for a couple of years. IMHO that is simply not realistic.

[DannyDarwinism]

The Clips aren't going to trade Paul, Griffin or Jordan. After those three players, the Clips have nothing the Celtics would want in exchange for either Pierce or Allen.
The Lakers aren't going to trade Kobe, Bynum or Gasol for Pierce or Allen, either directly or in a multi-team deal. So the chance of a deal with either LA team looks pretty slim to me.

Latest rumor on Hoopshype is that the Celtics are targeting Josh Smith. That makes no sense to me-- Smith is a poor fit for Rivers' offense, even if Smith did play with Rondo at Oak Hill. Marvin Williams might be a better target.

The Globe is reporting that Ainge intends to rebuild on the fly without becoming a lotto team for a couple of years. IMHO that is simply not realistic.

I agree with everything here except for Marvin Williams. If you want Marvin, wouldn't it just be better to sign Jeff Green at the aortic aneurysm discount? If he's cleared to play, he's a rich-man's Marvin Williams and I don't see him getting $8 mil/per.

[dolomite133]

Josh Smith would be an awesome acquisition. Easily on my top five trade targets list this season. Guy is young (enough), healthy and does it all.

[Brickowski]

Josh Smith ....is young (enough), healthy and does it all.

Yeah, including taking every ill-advised jump shot in the book, and shooting under 45% from the floor, even though he gets alot of dunks. He's shooting only 27% from behind the arc and 55% from the line this year.

[04101Seadog]

Totally agree with Josh Smith, as in addition he is good friends with Howard, and could be seen as a chip in getting him here. I like this though in conjunction with a move to free Beasley as well. Looking back to his stats from last year he seemed to have some monster games, and his fall in production tied directly to his playing time. You give the kid minutes and he get buckets. That being said his off the court issues are many, but if possible to get Smith and Beasley and then sign Howard, you quickly have a team where 4/5 of your starting line up is 26 or under, that are athletic and can get up and down the court. If the team is going to be built around Rondo those are the players that could make it work.

[wutang112878]

Totally agree with Josh Smith, as in addition he is good friends with Howard, and could be seen as a chip in getting him here. I like this though in conjunction with a move to free Beasley as well. Looking back to his stats from last year he seemed to have some monster games, and his fall in production tied directly to his playing time. You give the kid minutes and he get buckets. That being said his off the court issues are many, but if possible to get Smith and Beasley and then sign Howard, you quickly have a team where 4/5 of your starting line up is 26 or under, that are athletic and can get up and down the court. If the team is going to be built around Rondo those are the players that could make it work.

Lets go wit this line of thinking for a second. I think Rondo has a pretty good basketball IQ but is very, very stubborn at times. I think Smith is very limited as a player in the half-court game offensively, ditto for Howard minus lobs. Beasley is talented but again not exactly the highest basketball or real IQ ever. I just cant imagine these 4 playing together effectively. Both Howard and Beasley are guys that need the ball in their hands a lot to put up numbers. Beasley is a good shooter but not a great one, and no one else of that 4 could stretch opposing defenses with shooting, even if we had a 22 year old Ray I still think opposing defenses would just sag to the paint. It sort of reminds me of the days when Danny brought in guys like Lafrentz and Ricky Davis to play alongside Pierce, their games just didnt match/mesh, and as a result the trade value for those guys never developed.

[gammoseditor]

Lets go wit this line of thinking for a second. I think Rondo has a pretty good basketball IQ but is very, very stubborn at times. I think Smith is very limited as a player in the half-court game offensively, ditto for Howard minus lobs. Beasley is talented but again not exactly the highest basketball or real IQ ever. I just cant imagine these 4 playing together effectively. Both Howard and Beasley are guys that need the ball in their hands a lot to put up numbers. Beasley is a good shooter but not a great one, and no one else of that 4 could stretch opposing defenses with shooting, even if we had a 22 year old Ray I still think opposing defenses would just sag to the paint. It sort of reminds me of the days when Danny brought in guys like Lafrentz and Ricky Davis to play alongside Pierce, their games just didnt match/mesh, and as a result the trade value for those guys never developed.

Dwight Howard is a "very limited player in the half court"? The criticism on Howard is that with his athletic gifts he could be better offensively, but he's still really damn good.

[DannyDarwinism]

Dwight Howard is a "very limited player in the half court"? The criticism on Howard is that with his athletic gifts he could be better offensively, but he's still really damn good.

Yeah, in the fantasy scenario where we get Dwight Howard, Josh Smith and Beasley without giving up Rondo, I don't think we should fret too much about our half court offense. I mean, we could just get Steph Curry to keep defenses honest.

[BigMike]

Josh Smith would be an awesome acquisition. Easily on my top five trade targets list this season. Guy is young (enough), healthy and does it all.

So explain to me what the Celtics will give up to get Atlanta's best player when they are ahead of the Celtics in the standings? That is what I don't get on this story

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So explain to me what the Celtics will give up to get Atlanta's best player when they are ahead of the Celtics in the standings? That is what I don't get on this story

Yeah, I don't get it either. The article quoted said that they were offering Kevin Garnett, who I assumed to be the least move-able asset on the team. Unless Pierce or Rondo are moving, and there's a 3 team deal in the works, I struggle to see a fit for Atlanta.

[nighthob]

So explain to me what the Celtics will give up to get Atlanta's best player when they are ahead of the Celtics in the standings? That is what I don't get on this story

Atlanta would like to clear cap space for a run at Howard this summer, and long term they want to move the 6'9" Horford to the PF spot. They feel (correctly in my opinion) that Smith's best/highest usage is in his present role (starting 4/swing forward), and that converting him to a starting 3 will decrease his impact, and thus his trade value. So they would like to clear space at the 4 for Horford and space on the cap Howard.

So if Boston were throwing in their picks and taking back Count Pachulia I could well see the deal happening for Garnett. I think a more likely scenario, however, involves a three way deal with New Orleans this summer (after Howard signs someplace) with Rondo/Bass/whatever going to New Orleans, Okafor to Atlanta, and Smith & Jack to Boston.

[mcpickl]

My God. Poor Doc Rivers if he had to deal with Rondo, Josh Smith and Beasley as the core of his team.

[slamminsammya]

It sort of reminds me of the days when Danny brought in guys like Lafrentz and Ricky Davis to play alongside Pierce, their games just didnt match/mesh, and as a result the trade value for those guys never developed.

You mean Lafrentz, who's contract slot alone netted us Ratliff which in turn, again as a contract slot, netted us Garnett? And you mean Ricky Davis who, again just as a contract slot, netted us Wally Szczerbiak who then allowed us to get Ray Allen?

I am not disagreeing with your larger point, just quibbling with the idea that these guys' trade values were not that great. Talent wise, the returns were shitty (Ratliff played 10 minutes in green); but team building wise those guys were strategic gems!

[nighthob]

You mean Lafrentz, who's contract slot alone netted us Ratliff which in turn, again as a contract slot, netted us Garnett? And you mean Ricky Davis who, again just as a contract slot, netted us Wally Szczerbiak who then allowed us to get Ray Allen? I am not disagreeing with your larger point, just quibbling with the idea that these guys' trade values were not that great. Talent wise, the returns were shitty (Ratliff played 10 minutes in green); but team building wise those guys were strategic gems!

Their trade value was nil. Raef didn't net us Ratliff. A lottery pick netted us Ratliff. Just as a lottery pick netted us Allen.

[Brickowski]

It's not that LaFrentz was a bad fit skills-wise. His knees were gone. You may recall that the trade was held up for several days because a physical revealed that fact. But Ainge was so anxious to unload Walker to Dallas that he went ahead anyway.

[dolomite133]

It's not that LaFrentz was a bad fit skills-wise. His knees were gone. You may recall that the trade was held up for several days because a physical revealed that fact. But Ainge was so anxious to unload Walker to Dallas that he went ahead anyway.

In the end there's something to be said for keeping team salaries at certain levels above the cap, no matter what. If you have the contracts to move, there's always a chance you can make a move for a big name player. The history of the NBA is littered with lopsided trades for stars.

[fairlee76]

My God. Poor Doc Rivers if he had to deal with Rondo, Josh Smith and Beasley as the core of his team.

No shit. And to build on a point made by Brickowski above, Smith takes 6 long jumpers per game and makes 2 of them (per hoopdata.com). As a point of reference, over the past six seasons KG has taken 5/6 shots per game from this range and hit about 45 percent of them. Not sure what a team with Smith playing a primary role wins, besides a few spots on Top Plays. Given his raw skills, it seems like he should be a top 10 player in the league. As it now stands, he is a borderline top 10 player at his position.

[nighthob]

It's not that LaFrentz was a bad fit skills-wise. His knees were gone. You may recall that the trade was held up for several days because a physical revealed that fact. But Ainge was so anxious to unload Walker to Dallas that he went ahead anyway.

Ainge wasn't anxious to unload Walker on Dallas, per se. He was under orders to dump either Walker or Baker to get the team under the luxury tax line, and that tied his hands. He needed to send Walker out while reducing the short term salary (it was the Vin Baker deal redux). So they dealt for the albatross because the contract had partial insurance coverage and reduced the 2004 Celtics payroll.

Given his raw skills, it seems like he should be a top 10 player in the league. As it now stands, he is a borderline top 10 player at his position.

There are not ten better primary help defenders in the NBA.

Edited by nighthob, 03 March 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[jon abbey]

And to build on a point made by Brickowski above, Smith takes 6 long jumpers per game and makes 2 of them (per hoopdata.com). As a point of reference, over the past six seasons KG has taken 5/6 shots per game from this range and hit about 45 percent of them.

That's a difference of 1.2 points per game, I'd assume Smith easily makes that up in his ability to leak out on the break.

[Brickowski]

That's a difference of 1.2 points per game, I'd assume Smith easily makes that up in his ability to leak out on the break.

Not really, because KG, even at his age, runs the floor almost as well as Smith.

[collings94]

I think Atlanta needs KG a lot more then we need Josh Smith. Garnett would change the whole focus of Atlanta's team, while Smith has really reached the ceiling of his potential. Smith is a destructive defensive player, but he isn't as great as a rebounder as he should be and falls in love with taking 3's he doesn't make.

[nighthob]

Atlanta doesn't "need" Garnett and he won't "change the whole focus" of their team. In case you missed it, and I'm going to assume that you have, the Hawks are already a great defensive team. One of six NBA teams that surrenders less than a point/possession. What Atlanta wants (or, wanted, Horford's injury tossed a spanner into the works) is to chase after Dwight Howard (and failing that another center) this summer and to move the 6'9" Horford to the PF spot. Which they can't do without losing Smith & Pachulia from next year's payroll. That's why this rumor started over the summer.

But, believe me, had Atlanta offered Boston Smith & Pachulia for Garnett you'd be cheering for Smith tomorrow because the deal would have been done.

[Brickowski]

I don't think the salaries match. The Hawks would also have to throw in Hinrich.

[nighthob]

Smith & Pachulia make a combined $17,150,000 which is enough to take back Garnett. The only reason for them to include Hinrich or anyone else would be to avoid the luxury tax hit. (Not that the deal is happening, as I noted.)

[Brickowski]

Yes, I forgot that Smith was so overpaid. No wonder they're trying to dump him.
Hinrich is expiring so there are no luxury tax or cap implications after this year.

[nighthob]

Well, Smith & Pachulia for Garnett would raise their payroll to $73 million and change, and thus over the luxury tax line. For Boston it would mean an $8 million payroll reduction (including luxury tax), so if the cost were even an unprotected first Wyc & Co. would pay it gladly.

[Brickowski]

Savings this year would be pro rated. And the Celtics can achieve more savings next year by simply letting Garnett's deal expire. You do a Josh Smith deal to get younger, not to get better or to significantly reduce your payroll.

None of the Celtics' deals that have been rumored so far have made sense to me, given where the team is at the moment. For example, the Clips' rumored interest in Ray makes no sense because they have nothing to send back. I suppose a third team could be involved, but the Clips have nothing to send to a third team, either.

[jaret001]

FWIW on Thursday a caller on Mutt & Merloni suggested a reason behind a Celtics move for Josh Smith was because he and Dwight Howard are best friends from their AAU days. By now virtually everyone in the NBA is a friend of Howard's...

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Josh_Smith

[nighthob]

FWIW on Thursday a caller on Mutt & Merloni suggested a reason behind a Celtics move for Josh Smith was because he and Dwight Howard are best friends from their AAU days. By now virtually everyone in the NBA is a friend of Howard's...

And the fact that if it worked Boston would be pairing the best help defender in the NBA with the most dominant paint defender, and essentially recreating the 2008 squad.

Savings this year would be pro rated. And the Celtics can achieve more savings next year by simply letting Garnett's deal expire. You do a Josh Smith deal to get younger, not to get better or to significantly reduce your payroll.

No, you'd be trading Garnett for his minime (defensively speaking) in hopes of assembling a ballbusting defense next year. I was just saying that when you look at the payroll implications, that if this were a real deal, that the owners would pay whatever price they need to to make it happen.

[Brickowski]

I guess some folks here are higher on Josh Smith than I am. He's a great athlete, but not a great basketball player.

If you want to improve defensively at the cost of capspace next Summer-- and also facilitate Dwight Howard's move to the WC--offer Ray for Shawn Marion. At least Marion is over 30% from beyond the arc. I'm not advocating that move, BTW.

Edited by Brickowski, 04 March 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[nighthob]

The broken remnants of Shawn Marion don't have half the defensive impact and as an added "bonus" doesn't have an offensive impact either. Oh, and he isn't a particular friend of the best free agent on the market, is as old as Pierce, and about to get amnestied by Dallas. There's no need to trade for him, he'll be a free agent soon enough.

[knucklecup]

If the Celtics plan is Howard, you sell him on playing with Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett. That team, even with more declining, is the best team in the NBA for the next couple 3-4 years.

[knucklecup]

Not to mention, I've heard specifically Magic say that Garnett and Ray are gone after this year.

I don't understand why this is the case.

[mt8thsw9th]

I guess some folks here are higher on Josh Smith than I am. He's a great athlete, but not a great basketball player.

If you want to improve defensively at the cost of capspace next Summer-- and also facilitate Dwight Howard's move to the WC--offer Ray for Shawn Marion. At least Marion is over 30% from beyond the arc. I'm not advocating that move, BTW.

Of course, "beyond the arc" statistics are quite important when discussing two players that shoot about 1 three pointer a game.

[Brickowski]

Until recently Josh Smith jacked up quite a few more treys than that. He's toned it down.

[dolomite133]

I don't get people who wouldn't want Gerald Wallace or Josh Smith in green. I've encountered both on this board this season.

But since neither is very likely at this point, and neither are Batum or Turner, I'm bracing for the, what, Turiaf and CJ Miles era??? I really hope Danny is burning up the phone lines because the prospect of Rondo wasting his prime years leading a team of has beens and never weres is neither fair to him or the fan base.

Edited by dolomite133, 04 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Brickowski]

I don't get people who wouldn't want Gerald Wallace or Josh Smith in green. I've encountered both on this board this season.

But since neither is very likely at this point, and neither are Batum or Turner, I'm bracing for the, what, Turiaf and CJ Miles era??? I really hope Danny is burning up the phone lines because the prospect of Rondo wasting his prime years leading a team of has beens and never weres is neither fair to him or the fan base.

Well, are you looking forward to a team that has the same prospects as this year's Atlanta Hawks-- 45-48 wins, early exit from the playoffs? You can go along like that for quite a few years. Is that "fair" to the fan base?

[BigSoxFan]

I don't get people who wouldn't want Gerald Wallace or Josh Smith in green. I've encountered both on this board this season.

But since neither is very likely at this point, and neither are Batum or Turner, I'm bracing for the, what, Turiaf and CJ Miles era??? I really hope Danny is burning up the phone lines because the prospect of Rondo wasting his prime years leading a team of has beens and never weres is neither fair to him or the fan base.

Gerald Wallace turns 30 this summer. He's a guy you add to a contender, not a piece for a rebuilding team. And I still don't see why a playoff team like Atlanta trades Smith.

[nighthob]

We've been over this. They're trading him because they want to move Horford to the PF slot and sign a center in free agency. Which they can't do with Smith, Horford, Johnson, and Pachulia on their roster.

[BigSoxFan]

We've been over this. They're trading him because they want to move Horford to the PF slot and sign a center in free agency. Which they can't do with Smith, Horford, Johnson, and Pachulia on their roster.

And who is this center? Dwight Howard is a pipe dream. Hibbert is a RFA who will be retained. Ditto for Brook Lopez and likely Javale McGee as well. If Atlanta trades Smith, a 26 year-old entering his prime, they'll have much better offers to choose from than anything the Celtics can offer. But I'm glad you're so dialed in to Atlanta's front office though. Keep us posted.

[swingin val]

Until recently Josh Smith jacked up quite a few more treys than that. He's toned it down.

He has had 2 years where he attempted 2 or more three pointer per game. He never really "jacked up quite a few". And he is at 1.2 per game for his career.

It's fine to have a negative opinion of him, but i maybe you should stop throwing out wrongheaded stats that are easily verifiable.

[nighthob]

And who is this center? Dwight Howard is a pipe dream. Hibbert is a RFA who will be retained. Ditto for Brook Lopez and likely Javale McGee as well. If Atlanta trades Smith, a 26 year-old entering his prime, they'll have much better offers to choose from than anything the Celtics can offer. But I'm glad you're so dialed in to Atlanta's front office though. Keep us posted.

What the hell do you want me to tell you? They're tired of lining up a 6'9"/6'8" frontcourt. Spencer Hawes is unrestricted and Hibbert may be bid beyond Indina's comfort zone, and Dwight Howard is actually from Atlanta. They see options if they clear payroll. You may think that they're better off saying "fuck it, smallball it is" but the actual NBA people disagree.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

He has had 2 years where he attempted 2 or more three pointer per game. He never really "jacked up quite a few". And he is at 1.2 per game for his career.

It's fine to have a negative opinion of him, but i maybe you should stop throwing out wrongheaded stats that are easily verifiable.

The problem with Smith isn't about where he's taking the jumpers from, it's that he's taking them at all.

Sure, Josh Smith is taking fewer threes this year, only averaging one per game, but he's still taking 6 long two's per game, which is the worst shot you can take on a basketball court. He's a player that has, despite 5 years worth of evidence to the contrary, continued to believe that he's a jump shooter. He and Rondo might look good together in transition, but he'd make the Celtics half court offense even worse.