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Wicks & Rowe: The place to discuss far fetched rebuilding ideas.


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#501 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:59 PM

What's the reasoning behind amnestying Pierce instead of trading him? I'd rather try to send him to Indiana for nothing more than George Hill's expiring contract and a 1st round draft pick rather than just releasing him and watch him land in LA for nothing. And in the offseason the number of suitors should grow. Using the amnesty clause on Pierce doesn't make sense to me.


Would Indiana do that deal? The Pacers may have other uses for their cap space, not just this year but for two years thereafter. They've got more than 40% of their payroll invested in Danny Granger and David West, who play the same position. Also, they will either have to pay Hibbert in the near future or lose him.

Obviously you'd rather get something for Pierce rather than nothing. But I can't construct a trade that I think would work in the real world. For starters, if you try to trade Pierce to some shitty franchise like Charlotte, he'll very likely refuse to report and kill the deal. He's threatened to do that before. Also, if you treat him badly, you risk alientating the fanbase and adversely affecting your ability to attract free agents going forward.

#502 teddykgb

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:08 PM

Brickowski I really just don't understand your fascination with Hibbert. I don't think his own mother thinks he's as good as you do.

There are surely many viable trades for Pierce, he's probably our most tradeable asset. He's not old enough that he wouldn't be seen as the final piece on a contender. Indiana would surely love to have Pierce. If the premise is that you want to improve your team more than using the amnesty, you could flip him for some back end of the rotation guys without much of an issue, I'd think.

I mean, I think Philly, Chicago, Indiana, San Antonio, LAC, and even Houston and Memphis would be interested. Salary matches probably whittle that list down a bit, but if the Celtics weren't overly worried about getting truly equal value they'd be able to make something work. As you did correctly point out, there are a lot of good reasons why it still might not work out, Pierce himself could blow something up and the overall cost of not keeping him here forever is probably very high, but in an objective scenario there are probably more moves for Pierce out there than even Rondo.

#503 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:11 PM

I'd be delighted if Pierce were as tradeable as some of you think he is. The trick is getting expiring contracts, propects or picks back for him. teddykgb, you've listed seven teams. Give me one trade with any of those seven that makes sense for both teams.

#504 ElcaballitoMVP

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

Would Indiana do that deal? The Pacers may have other uses for their cap space, not just this year but for two years thereafter. They've got more than 40% of their payroll invested in Danny Granger and David West, who play the same position. Also, they will either have to pay Hibbert in the near future or lose him.

Obviously you'd rather get something for Pierce rather than nothing. But I can't construct a trade that I think would work in the real world. For starters, if you try to trade Pierce to some shitty franchise like Charlotte, he'll very likely refuse to report and kill the deal. He's threatened to do that before. Also, if you treat him badly, you risk alientating the fanbase and adversely affecting your ability to attract free agents going forward.


I was just throwing out Indiana as an example, but my basic idea was that the C's can wait until after the season and trade him to any number of teams and get something useful back rather than just amnestying him. At the deadline, it's going to be harder to find a team who can send us expirings/picks that will match up with Pierce while still being a team PP would be willing to go to. But in the offseason, there will be more teams willing to wheel and deal for a guy like Paul. Dallas is one team that comes to mind that would probably be more willing to discuss Pierce in the offseason rather than now (if they can't get both DWill and Howard, Pierce may be an interesting consolation prize).

#505 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:20 PM

If Dallas wants Pierce, they can have him right now for Lamar Odom (reportedly unhappy and seeking a buyout), Jason Kidd (expiring and probably retiring) and a second round pick. I believe that next year there is a team option on Odom with a $2M buyout, so that salary would disappear as well.

The problem with waiting until the offseason to move Pierce is that (as I pointed out above) you only have $22M in cap space next Summer with Pierce on the books, which limits what you can do in free agency and what you can take back in trades without having to match salaries-- especially if you want to keep Garnett as well.

Edited by Brickowski, 28 February 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#506 mcpickl

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

2. Same as the above, but the Celtics do not amnesty Pierce. That leaves $37,929,480 in committed salaries and 22M of cap space-- enough for one max salary player but not two.



In his pie in the sky scenario, he had traded Rondo for Tyreke Evans. So he'd have about 31-32 million in salaries/cap holds.(Pierce, Evans, Bradley, Johnson, Moore, two 1sts, 5 minimum holds. Bass isn't picking up that option unless he ends the season incapacitated)

He'd be OK cap wise in his scenario to sign both without moving Pierce. Never being amnestied because he still has value.

#507 mcpickl

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:50 PM

I'd be delighted if Pierce were as tradeable as some of you think he is. The trick is getting expiring contracts, propects or picks back for him. teddykgb, you've listed seven teams. Give me one trade with any of those seven that makes sense for both teams.


I'd bet if the Celtics were desperate enough to amnesty Pierce(they're not), the Clippers would deal Mo Williams, Randy Foye and Eric Bledsoe for him.

#508 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:58 PM

I'd bet if the Celtics were desperate enough to amnesty Pierce(they're not), the Clippers would deal Mo Williams, Randy Foye and Eric Bledsoe for him.


Bledsoe has 3 years remaining, Mo Williams has a player option for $8.5M next year. And we've already got their first round pick. No thanks.

#509 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:38 PM

I find it hard to believe that Howard and Williams would want to join a Celtics team that would basically have nothing else on it. You'd have to build an entire team in one offseason, which is unprecedented.

#510 ivanvamp


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:41 PM

Garnett, Bradley, and a 1st round pick to Utah for Jefferson, Devin Harris, and a 2nd round pick.

Why? For Boston, they get Jefferson as an offensively-minded big man. Not a good defender, but can score. Also, Harris gives them a nice 1-2 combo at the point, but more than that, perhaps another trade chip for a separate deal. For Utah, the rumor I read was that they were looking to move Jefferson so that they can get more PT for Favors. So here, they get an expiring contract, a guy who could become their future point guard, and a 1st round pick is much more valuable than a 2nd rounder. This would give Utah three first-round picks. That's a lot of ammo to either trade up or simply acquire talent in a deep draft. They could come away (say they got Boston's #26 pick) with these three guys (according to this mock - http://nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft):

Kendall Marshall - good complement to Avery Bradley
Perry Jones - big-time forward
William Buford - good, athletic 2-guard

#511 mcpickl

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

Bledsoe has 3 years remaining, Mo Williams has a player option for $8.5M next year. And we've already got their first round pick. No thanks.


You'd want Bledsoe at 3 yrs on his rookie deal, that's the point. That's a terrific contract. Mo Williams probably doesn't pick up his option, he'll likely shop for a multiyear deal. If he did pick it up, he's easily movable on a one year deal.

I wouldn't do the deal, because it way undersells Pierce, but it mashes your idea of using the amnesty on Pierce. Thanks!

Edited by mcpickl, 28 February 2012 - 06:46 PM.


#512 triniSox

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:49 PM

If Dallas wants Pierce, they can have him right now for Lamar Odom (reportedly unhappy and seeking a buyout), Jason Kidd (expiring and probably retiring) and a second round pick. I believe that next year there is a team option on Odom with a $2M buyout, so that salary would disappear as well.

The problem with waiting until the offseason to move Pierce is that (as I pointed out above) you only have $22M in cap space next Summer with Pierce on the books, which limits what you can do in free agency and what you can take back in trades without having to match salaries-- especially if you want to keep Garnett as well.

I get your general idea but in particular Dallas would not take that offer. Firstly, it limits their ability to make a run at Deron Williams and Dwight Howard in free agency at the end of the year - they're not going to do anything that limits their future cap space to that extent. Secondly, in the short term, Dallas won't trade away their only true PG on the roster (Delonte, Roddy B and DoJo are all combo guards) and they still value what Kidd brings to the table, and the expectation is that he'll be back next year to backup Deron Williams if the Mavs do land him.

#513 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:08 PM

Roderique Beaubois is a pretty good player. He will backup DWill, and will likely be the starter if the Mavs don't get DWill-- which they won't, because Howard and DWill going to Dallas is just as improbable as both of them coming to Boston.

Edited by Brickowski, 28 February 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#514 triniSox

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:28 PM

Roderique Beaubois is a pretty good player. He will backup DWill, and will likely be the starter if the Mavs don't get DWill-- which they won't, because Howard and DWill going to Dallas is just as improbable as both of them coming to Boston.

Except for the fact that both of them have expressed interest in Dallas specifically... and Deron is from Dallas. And my point was that this year they don't have a true PG other than Kidd - they won't trade him and sacrifice this year. BTW, Woj, Stein, David Aldridge and others have stated that after the Nets, Dallas is the most likely destination for both of them.

Links:
http://newyork.sbnat...wski-mark-cuban

"There's really two scenarios for him in free agency," Wojnarowski told WEEI Radio. "One is going to Brooklyn with Deron Williams and the other is going to be Dallas."
Wojnarowski offered a scenario that would be a nightmare for Nets fans. He stated that the Mavericks would like to unload the contract of forward Shawn Marion, then use the cap space to pursue BOTH Howard and Williams as free agents during the offseason.

"If they can get rid of Shawn Marion Dallas is in the game for both those guys," Wojnarowski said.


http://espn.go.com/n...ght-howard-land

It has not reached the point that teams think Dallas actually has this fantasy double down all lined up already Miami Heat-style. Anyone who has studied the Mavericks' cap situation knows they'd have to clear out pretty much everyone on the roster not named Dirk Nowitzki to have enough cap space to make bids high enough for two max-level players to consider them.

Specifically? Dallas would likely have to release Brendan Haywood through the amnesty clause next summer, trade away Shawn Marion without taking back any salary and also give away young guards Roddy Beaubois and Dominique Jones, while also letting free agents-to-be Jason Terry,Lamar Odom, Vince Carter and Delonte West all walk.

However ...

Lots of folks around the league are starting to believe that it's possible if not probable. Even before the Showcase started Monday, two rival executives told ESPN.com that they think Marion will still have trade value at season's end after the defense and energy he supplied during Dallas' championship run and the solid manner in which he's started this season.

If they're right, even with two seasons left on Marion's contract after this one (valued at just over $18 million) and his 34th birthday looming in May, Dallas really could have a shot as long as Howard is wearing anything but a Nets or Lakers jersey at season's end.


Anyways, not to sidetrack the discussion. Most people will disagree with you that Dallas in for Deron and/or Dwight is more feasible than either of them in Boston. And your trade proposal would be not entertained by Dallas.

Edit: Added more details.

Edited by triniSox, 28 February 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#515 The Social Chair

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:52 PM

Roderique Beaubois is a pretty good player. He will backup DWill, and will likely be the starter if the Mavs don't get DWill-- which they won't, because Howard and DWill going to Dallas is just as improbable as both of them coming to Boston.


NBA people are saying D-Will/Howard to Mavs is what both guys want. It's Miami all over again.

edit- The post above me touches on it.

#516 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:11 PM

I'm reading that Dwight wants Brooklyn. And look at the Mavs' cap position. I don't see how they both end up there without taking serious financial haircuts, unless the Mavs unload Dirk in the process.

Edited by Brickowski, 28 February 2012 - 08:18 PM.


#517 triniSox

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

I'm reading that Dwight wants Brooklyn. And look at the Mavs' cap position. I don't see how they both end up there without taking serious financial haircuts, unless the Mavs unload Dirk in the process.

The gist of it is Dallas trades Marion and amnesties Haywood. That'd leave them with about $35 million of cap space after accounting for cap holds (based on projected 2012 NBA-wide salary cap). That'd give Deron about $0.5million less than max annual and Dwight about $1.5million less than max annual. Will that be enough to get them? Can they trade Marion? Who knows.

But it's possible. There are several cap-specific articles on dallasbasketball.com (behind a pay-wall) and other sites that detail this - these are specific numbers from the articles not me spitballing. and it's well-documented that Dallas is in the top 2 or 3 options of both of these players. So the Mavs think there's a chance. There's almost zero percent chance they take on Pierce at the trade deadline this year in the proposed deal.

Edited by triniSox, 28 February 2012 - 08:41 PM.


#518 nighthob

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:02 PM

The gist of it is Dallas trades Marion and amnesties Haywood. That'd leave them with about $35 million of cap space after accounting for cap holds (based on projected 2012 NBA-wide salary cap). That'd give Deron about $0.5million less than max annual and Dwight about $1.5million less than max annual. Will that be enough to get them? Can they trade Marion? Who knows.

But it's possible. There are several cap-specific articles on dallasbasketball.com (behind a pay-wall) and other sites that detail this - these are specific numbers from the articles not me spitballing. and it's well-documented that Dallas is in the top 2 or 3 options of both of these players. So the Mavs think there's a chance. There's almost zero percent chance they take on Pierce at the trade deadline this year in the proposed deal.


Their one and only chance is to find a team to use a large trade exception on Marion, and the same for Beuabois, Carter, Williams, Jones and Odom as his team option comes with a buyout that screws up the plan. In other words, if Howard really wants to play with Williams, it's happening in Brooklyn.

#519 triniSox

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:16 PM

Their one and only chance is to find a team to use a large trade exception on Marion, and the same for Beuabois, Carter, Williams, Jones and Odom as his team option comes with a buyout that screws up the plan. In other words, if Howard really wants to play with Williams, it's happening in Brooklyn.

I'm not sure what the details of the Williams and Carter contract are. I'm assuming the Mavs can dump the contracts of Beaubois and Williams in separate deals if needed (like the Fernandez and Brewer deal). But you're right, it's tough. But Dallas front office is certainly still working on this possibility (and the very real possibility of them getting only one of them) and they would not take on contracts like Pierce's.

#520 Brickowski

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:32 PM

If the Celtics want someone to trade for Pierce after tonight's game they better hide the tapes. He looks like he aged two years over the all-star break.

#521 nighthob

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:06 PM

If the Celtics want someone to trade for Pierce after tonight's game they better hide the tapes. He looks like he aged two years over the all-star break.


Also, can the Rondo Über Alles stop pretending that Rondo is on some mythical other level than Kyrie Irving?

#522 bowiac


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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:21 PM

Pierce has been a fine player so far this year. I can't imagine that he's totally impossible to trade for value. He's a fine complimentary piece for too many teams for it to be impossible to find a match. Cap/future plans aside, he makes sense for half the contenders in the league.

#523 nighthob

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:40 PM

Pierce has been a fine player so far this year. I can't imagine that he's totally impossible to trade for value. He's a fine complimentary piece for too many teams for it to be impossible to find a match. Cap/future plans aside, he makes sense for half the contenders in the league.


The problem is that if you want to be a player in free agency you can't grind up and spit out your vet stars. So he has to go to a contender. And contenders don't trade core players for vets that fill in around the edges. And they sure as heck don't trade young core players. The young guys you get are Jiri Welsch level talent.

So trading Pierce to a contender results, in a best case scenario, an NBA 7-10 guy, a low first round pick, and a prayer. As a deal it's of the "Let's nuke the roster now so that we land a top pick in the draft" variety. But at that point there's no sense in keeping Rondo around as by the time the rebuilding project finishes his value will be gone. So if they really are nuking the remains they'd better do it right and clear out the three guys with any value they have remaining.

#524 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:53 AM

Also, can the Rondo Über Alles stop pretending that Rondo is on some mythical other level than Kyrie Irving?


Is there anybody who really thinks this? I bet every GM in basketball would take Irving over Rondo at this point.

#525 nighthob

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:19 AM

Is there anybody who really thinks this? I bet every GM in basketball would take Irving over Rondo at this point.


Yes, but a majority of this board will tell you that there's an infinitesimal chance that Irving ever reaches Rajon's level of greatness.

#526 Brickowski

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:36 AM

Well, the fun begins tomorrow. I expect a fair amount of player movement, as GMs contemplate the draconian luxury tax provisions that go into effect two years from now.

#527 ivanvamp


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Posted 29 February 2012 - 11:43 AM

The gist of it is Dallas trades Marion and amnesties Haywood. That'd leave them with about $35 million of cap space after accounting for cap holds (based on projected 2012 NBA-wide salary cap). That'd give Deron about $0.5million less than max annual and Dwight about $1.5million less than max annual. Will that be enough to get them? Can they trade Marion? Who knows.

But it's possible. There are several cap-specific articles on dallasbasketball.com (behind a pay-wall) and other sites that detail this - these are specific numbers from the articles not me spitballing. and it's well-documented that Dallas is in the top 2 or 3 options of both of these players. So the Mavs think there's a chance. There's almost zero percent chance they take on Pierce at the trade deadline this year in the proposed deal.


A DWill-Dirk-Howard triumverate would be tremendous. The thing about Howard is that he really doesn't need the ball to be a dominant player. Williams and Nowitzki can be the primary scorers. Howard will get a few alley-oops, putbacks, and garbage points to average 15-18 per game. He'll get his usual 13 rebounds and a few blocks and generally control things in the middle. With those three stars, you can definitely work the fringes.

#528 lars10

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:57 PM

Yes, but a majority of this board will tell you that there's an infinitesimal chance that Irving ever reaches Rajon's level of greatness.

Every one of your posts is a lesson in hyperbole.

#529 swingin val

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:34 PM

The problem is that if you want to be a player in free agency you can't grind up and spit out your vet stars. So he has to go to a contender. And contenders don't trade core players for vets that fill in around the edges. And they sure as heck don't trade young core players. The young guys you get are Jiri Welsch level talent.

So trading Pierce to a contender results, in a best case scenario, an NBA 7-10 guy, a low first round pick, and a prayer. As a deal it's of the "Let's nuke the roster now so that we land a top pick in the draft" variety. But at that point there's no sense in keeping Rondo around as by the time the rebuilding project finishes his value will be gone. So if they really are nuking the remains they'd better do it right and clear out the three guys with any value they have remaining.

Holy shit you are one negative dude.

#530 nighthob

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:14 PM

A nuke the roster rebuild takes 3-5 years, 6-1 guys that crash the rim (and in this case it's Rondo's only offensive game) don't have a great history of lasting past 30. So why would you wait to drain all the value from him before dealing him?

#531 lars10

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

A nuke the roster rebuild takes 3-5 years, 6-1 guys that crash the rim (and in this case it's Rondo's only offensive game) don't have a great history of lasting past 30. So why would you wait to drain all the value from him before dealing him?

Except for those little things called assists that some Point Guards are important for...

#532 nighthob

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

Again, if you're committed to nuking the roster to rebuild, why keep a 26 year old player whose career will be pushing end-of-life by the time you're good again? Given that the worse his surrounding cast looks the worse he looks, keeping him for a "nuke the roster" rebuild is setting yourself up for failure (by squandering a trade asset).

#533 Kutcher Era Youth

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:38 PM

Unrelated to the current discussion but in the spirit of the topic, how does anyone feel about should Sacremento land pick 2,3,4, and be willing to draft Drummond and trade for Rondo ( that would be the center of the deal ), would you do it? I could see the Kings wanting more of a sure thing and be hesitant to pair Cousins with Drummond. He could be the next Kwame Brown for sure, but when was the last time the Celtics drafted a guy with his potential? Bias?

Edit: Of course, the whole premise depends on Sac's being in position to draft Drummond.

Edited by Kutcher Era Youth, 29 February 2012 - 05:40 PM.


#534 ElcaballitoMVP

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 05:54 PM

Unrelated to the current discussion but in the spirit of the topic, how does anyone feel about should Sacremento land pick 2,3,4, and be willing to draft Drummond and trade for Rondo ( that would be the center of the deal ), would you do it? I could see the Kings wanting more of a sure thing and be hesitant to pair Cousins with Drummond. He could be the next Kwame Brown for sure, but when was the last time the Celtics drafted a guy with his potential? Bias?

Edit: Of course, the whole premise depends on Sac's being in position to draft Drummond.


I'm interested in the deal if the C's go into full rebuild mode. It's always tough to trade small for big in the NBA, but here Sactown would be dealing a raw player (albeit with big upside) for a known quantity at a position they don't seem comfortable with (Tyreke is more of a D-Wade 2 guard than a true PG). I'm not sure how a deal could be put together, but I'm sure in the offseason they could make it work (looks like they'll be far enough under the cap to allow them to do a straight Rondo for draft pick trade). You're taking a big risk that Drummond pans out, but you'd be getting a pretty promising prospect, even if he hasn't quite lived up to expectations this year at UCONN.

#535 nighthob

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:22 PM

Unrelated to the current discussion but in the spirit of the topic, how does anyone feel about should Sacremento land pick 2,3,4, and be willing to draft Drummond and trade for Rondo ( that would be the center of the deal ), would you do it? I could see the Kings wanting more of a sure thing and be hesitant to pair Cousins with Drummond. He could be the next Kwame Brown for sure, but when was the last time the Celtics drafted a guy with his potential? Bias?

Edit: Of course, the whole premise depends on Sac's being in position to draft Drummond.


When all is said and done Michael Gilchrist will be the 2nd best player from this pool, and I would trade Rondo for him in a cocaine heartbeat.

#536 Kutcher Era Youth

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:09 PM

When all is said and done Michael Gilchrist will be the 2nd best player from this pool, and I would trade Rondo for him in a cocaine heartbeat.


Gilchrist doesn't have anything resembling an offensive arsenal. He doen't have a bag of tricks, or a great first step from what I've seen. He doesn't seem like a good shooter. He seems like a Josh Smith type capable of guarding 2's or 3's. I'd gamble on Drummond and wouldn't regret the outcome.

Edited by Kutcher Era Youth, 01 March 2012 - 05:36 AM.


#537 Brickowski

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:53 AM

Right now I would take Drummond as the #2 guy after Davis. You'd have to wait two years for him to mature, but he has the tools. If you wanted a player who was immediately NBA-ready, you'd take Sullinger. You would also want to take a long look at Thomas Robinson, who is taller than Gilchrist.

Edited by Brickowski, 01 March 2012 - 09:54 AM.


#538 ivanvamp


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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

Right now I would take Drummond as the #2 guy after Davis. You'd have to wait two years for him to mature, but he has the tools. If you wanted a player who was immediately NBA-ready, you'd take Sullinger. You would also want to take a long look at Thomas Robinson, who is taller than Gilchrist.


Drummond is a phenomenal athlete. He has terrible judgment (I know he's just a young kid, so it may improve, but right now.....yuck) and he has no shooting ability whatsoever. Just about all he can do is dunk (something he does very well, mind you). His D is suspect, despite the fact that he blocks a lot of shots.

I'm not saying there isn't the raw material to work with; I am saying, however, that the only tool he has right now is his athleticism, which, for a man his size, is off the charts.

#539 Brickowski

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:34 AM

Yep, he's totally unpolished. if you drafted Drummond you'd have to bring back Clifford Ray or another good big men's coach to teach Drummond how to play basketball.

#540 ElcaballitoMVP

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:17 AM

Gilchrist doesn't have anything resembling an offensive arsenal. He doen't have a bag of tricks, or a great first step from what I've seen. He doesn't seem like a good shooter. He seems like a Josh Smith type capable of guarding 2's or 3's. I'd gamble on Drummond and wouldn't regret the outcome.


I'd be happy with any one of Davis, Drummond, Gilchrist, Robinson, Barnes or possibly Sullinger as a building block. All have their limitations, but each one is a very solid prospect to build around. If the team goes into full rebuild, trading Rondo's contract and adding a young, cost controlled top pick will give them a ton of salary cap space if that's what Danny is looking for. I don't think DWill and Howard are realistic targets, but maybe DA and ownership do.

#541 tbrown_01923

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

I don't really have a lot to add, but I just don't see Sullinger. He is tall, has a decent touch around the rim - but his FT shooting is horrendous, he appears overweight, and disappears for long streches. Can somebody please tell me what I am missing - or is this what a potential top 5 pick looks like?

#542 ElcaballitoMVP

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:28 PM

I don't really have a lot to add, but I just don't see Sullinger. He is tall, has a decent touch around the rim - but his FT shooting is horrendous, he appears overweight, and disappears for long streches. Can somebody please tell me what I am missing - or is this what a potential top 5 pick looks like?


Yeah, I'm not completely sold on Sullinger and he's not even a lock for the top 5 at this point. But he is a talented low post PF who can score either facing or with his back to the basket and rebounds very well. He's not a freak of an athlete or very tall (he's listed at 6'9"), which are concerns but he's a player who can score and rebound. I'm thinking more of a Carlos Boozer/Kevin Love (best case scenario) type of player rather than a KG/Amare. I don't think he'll be a #1 option on a championship caliber team, but he can help you win. I'd say he's firmly in the 5-10 range right now.

#543 ivanvamp


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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

Yep, he's totally unpolished. if you drafted Drummond you'd have to bring back Clifford Ray or another good big men's coach to teach Drummond how to play basketball.


As of today, Andre Drummond is shooting .312 from the free throw line. That would make for a wonderful batting average, but my 10-year old daughter would crush him in a free-throw shooting contest. He really cannot shoot. Like, as in, at all. Almost all his baskets are dunks or layups.

#544 ivanvamp


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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:47 PM

I don't really have a lot to add, but I just don't see Sullinger. He is tall, has a decent touch around the rim - but his FT shooting is horrendous, he appears overweight, and disappears for long streches. Can somebody please tell me what I am missing - or is this what a potential top 5 pick looks like?


Sullinger's FT stats:

2010-11: 70.4%
2011-12: 74.3%

I fail to see how that makes him "horrendous" at FT shooting. It actually makes him significantly better than average, actually. If he was his own team, his 74.3% this year would rank 35th out of 344 total teams. Almost top 10%.

#545 tbrown_01923

  • 181 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

I stand corrected - but my memory has his stroke as ugly. Perhaps I am imagining it.

#546 nighthob

  • 2,952 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:54 PM

I don't really have a lot to add, but I just don't see Sullinger. He is tall, has a decent touch around the rim - but his FT shooting is horrendous, he appears overweight, and disappears for long streches. Can somebody please tell me what I am missing - or is this what a potential top 5 pick looks like?


Sullinger is a Carlos Boozer type PF. And his free throw shooting is only "horrendous" if you consider Ray Allen's "average". All that you ask of a post scorer is that he draw fouls and hit 70% of his free throws and he's well above that.

#547 Brickowski

  • 3,723 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:55 PM

Sullinger has very soft hands and knows how to use his bulk. He's much more of a finished product. IMHO another comparison might be Elton Brand.

Edited by Brickowski, 01 March 2012 - 01:57 PM.


#548 BigSoxFan


  • SoSH Member


  • 12,646 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

The difference between Brand/Boozer and Sullinger is that you didn't have to worry about those guys eating themselves out of the league. I think Sullinger will ultimately have an impact that's somewhere in between a Dejaun Blair and a Carlos Boozer. I don't think he's likely to "bust" but I also don't see much upside either, which is what most lottery teams are looking for.

#549 nighthob

  • 2,952 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:31 PM

The difference between Brand/Boozer and Sullinger is that you didn't have to worry about those guys eating themselves out of the league. I think Sullinger will ultimately have an impact that's somewhere in between a Dejaun Blair and a Carlos Boozer. I don't think he's likely to "bust" but I also don't see much upside either, which is what most lottery teams are looking for.


Outside the top 3-5 picks? You're just praying that you find a solid starter.

#550 fairlee76

  • 1,640 posts

Posted 01 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

As of today, Andre Drummond is shooting .312 from the free throw line. That would make for a wonderful batting average, but my 10-year old daughter would crush him in a free-throw shooting contest. He really cannot shoot. Like, as in, at all. Almost all his baskets are dunks or layups.

This kid reminds me a lot of Rashard Griffith; prototypical size and athleticism but nothing else that indicates he is going to be a beast in the NBA. Then again, my recollections of Griffith are pretty hazy as I only saw a few of his games at Wisconsin.

Besides the obvious guys (Davis, Gilchrist, Robinson), Mike Moser is someone I like for the Celtics late in the first round or early in the second. Definitely a bit undersized to play the 4, but think that he could develop into a nice 3. Should the Celtics keep Rondo, Moser would be a nice complement to RR in the open court.




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