359 replies to this topic

[BigSoxFan]

I had always assumed that NBA GMs don't even bother calling a team about their best player if they're not willing to trade ANY of their top 3 guys.

[JohnnyTheBone]

If Danny trades Rondo for Gasol, he should be shot in the back of his head Ol' Yeller style.

[Brickowski]

If Danny trades Rondo for Gasol, he should be shot in the back of his head Ol' Yeller style.

Why? It probably gives them a better shot in the playoffs this year (no way they're going far without another big person) and postpones the rebuilding until Pierce's current contract is up (Gasol's deal ends at the same time). Maybe the owners would prefer a few more years of mediocrity for financial reasons.

[Sprowl]

Why? It probably gives them a better shot in the playoffs this year (no way they're going far without another big person) and postpones the rebuilding until Pierce's current contract is up (Gasol's deal ends at the same time). Maybe the owners would prefer a few more years of mediocrity for financial reasons.

Do you think the Celtics are going anywhere in the playoffs with Bradley and Moore playing point guard? It worked fine for a stretch against bad teams that didn't make the obvious preparations to pressure the full court and then to get the ball out of Pierce's hands, but any competent playoff team will destroy the Bradley-Moore Celtics. Bradley is improving his ballhandling, and may be a useful combo guard in a few years, but for the 2012 playoffs? I can't see it happening.

Granted, the Celtics as presently constituted with Rondo will be fortunate to scratch their way into 6th seed, outsmart Orlando, and pray for a second-round upset, but for playoff long shots, it's a better bet than Bradley-Moore.

[Brickowski]

Granted, the Celtics as presently constituted with Rondo will be fortunate to scratch their way into 6th seed, outsmart Orlando, and pray for a second-round upset, but for playoff long shots, it's a better bet than Bradley-Moore.

True, they don't go far in the playoffs either way.

[JohnnyTheBone]

Why? It probably gives them a better shot in the playoffs this year (no way they're going far without another big person) and postpones the rebuilding until Pierce's current contract is up (Gasol's deal ends at the same time). Maybe the owners would prefer a few more years of mediocrity for financial reasons.

Sprowl, in his inimitable fashion, summed it up nicely. I would add that not only do I despise Gasol with every fiber of my being and could never root for him, but he's also aging in dog years right before our eyes. No thanks. I'd prefer to watch the unique talents of Rajon Rondo for the next 4 years of his very reasonable contract, thank you very much.

[Brickowski]

Rondo for Gasol would be treading water, but I wouldn't view that move as a capital offense.

[wutang112878]

Sprowl, in his inimitable fashion, summed it up nicely. I would add that not only do I despise Gasol with every fiber of my being and could never root for him, but he's also aging in dog years right before our eyes. No thanks. I'd prefer to watch the unique talents of Rajon Rondo for the next 4 years of his very reasonable contract, thank you very much.

To add that that, he also looks like a llama:



Not that the Celts are all pretty boys, but man it hurts looking at him.

Rondo for Gasol would be treading water, but I wouldn't view that move as a capital offense.

I see that taking us a small step back unless we immediately trade Gasol. Rondo is cheaper, has a better contract and is younger. Gasol is a bigman and now its more difficult to find those than PGs, but all and all I dont see that moving us in the right direction unless Gasol could be moved for something better than Rondo and his contract.

[Reardons Beard]

Sprowl, in his inimitable fashion, summed it up nicely. I would add that not only do I despise Gasol with every fiber of my being and could never root for him, but he's also aging in dog years right before our eyes. No thanks. I'd prefer to watch the unique talents of Rajon Rondo for the next 4 years of his very reasonable contract, thank you very much.

I would take Rondo over Gasol the Lesser every second of a Celtics game from here on out. An extraordinary game by Rondo is always going to be above and beyond an extraordinary game by Gasol the Lesser, plus the financials and age also make it a no brainer.

Now if we were talking about Gasol the Greater (Marc) I think we'd have a serious case on our hands.

[Nick Kaufman]

I would trade a Rondo for Gasol and Fisher trade if I thought it gave me a chance a title run this year. Does it? I don't know, I can't crunch numbers.

I definitely think that such a trade would make sense from the Lakers point of view.

[Three10toLeft]

I would trade a Rondo for Gasol and Fisher trade if I thought it gave me a chance a title run this year. Does it? I don't know, I can't crunch numbers.

I definitely think that such a trade would make sense from the Lakers point of view.

I think Fisher is going to be pronounced clinically dead at any moment, so no. I don't think this would help us at a title shot this year.

[radsoxfan]

I think Fisher is going to be pronounced clinically dead at any moment, so no. I don't think this would help us at a title shot this year.

Exactly. I was just about to ask if the Lakers had someone else on their team named Fisher besides Derek. That guy is a train wreck. I'd rather play the Bradley/Moore shit sandwich than let Fisher see the floor for this team.

[Brickowski]

I would prefer to take back Steve Blake.

[Koufax]

The llama is prettier than Gasol.

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I would prefer to take back Steve Blake.

If this were to happen, I am so getting a custom jersey.

[Sprowl]

If this were to happen, I am so getting a custom jersey.

Like Tintin as a child (with a buzzcut instead of the cowlick).

[Brickowski]

I know it's hard to envision life with a couple of ex-Lakers instead of the greatest point guard alive:

[Jed Zeppelin]

That is true. We all do believe that.

[smastroyin]

I would think Rondo for Gasol would be more about the fact that they think they could flip Gasol easier than they are doing with Rondo.

Or that they think the Pierce point forward style they used when Rondo was hurt is a better tactic for this team to make a single run. I think I've been clear that I am not the biggest fan of Rondo as a team player (I agree with others who think he is great to watch individually since he does do some crazy stuff out there that not many guys can do), but even I would call that strategy a bit foolish. They looked better without Rondo for a week or so, I'm not sure they would for an entire playoffs. Also, Gasol at the 5 was really soft, maybe his toughness is for real now or KG could keep him inspired but I don't know that I want to bet on it.

Also, I too hate Gasol's face.

[TripleOT]

I enjoyed the CSI Miami episode where Pau Gasol gets killed.

[Nick Kaufman]

Rondo for Nash and Gortat do you do it?

[Rudy Pemberton]

Definitely, but the Suns wouldn't.

[Gravistar]

Definitely, but the Suns wouldn't.

Really, definitely? Steve Nash is almost 38 years old. If we trade Rondo it should be to get better for the future, which means either keeping Rondo and getting young players to build around, or bringing in two or three young players who would allow the team to form a new 3 to 5 year plan. I don't get the rationalization of trying to make this team better now -- this team has no chance at a title as currently constructed, and that's not just because we're old but because we have a terrible bench. Also, we'd likely realize once Nash retires that Gortat's stats are inflated because of Nash. Even with a good big man, we don't have the athleticism to get by Miami, or the defensive ability to compete with Chicago -- and that's before we start talking about a team like OKC.

[wutang112878]

Rondo for Nash and Gortat do you do it?

Thats a good roll of the dice. This year we would have to change our defense to compensate for the fact that Nash cant keep anyone in front of him, but the upside is that in the half-court game Nash can initiate and create offense much more than Rondo.and would make the Big3 more effective. Long-term we would have a decent C in Gortat, but for the trade we have some CBA rules to think about. This year Rondo makes $10M, Nash makes $11.7M, and Gortat makes $6.8M, total of $18.5M, so we would have to add in JO to get us to $16.2M and then add in some filler salary as well to meet that 120% rule. I am not suggesting its impossible but we do need to add some more pieces.

[Brickowski]

Suns wouldn't do it in a million years. Well, maybe in a thousand years since Sarver is an idiot. A more likely trade with Phoenix is Bradley for the other Lopez twin.

Edited by Brickowski, 14 March 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[TripleOT]

Is Nash really going to re-up with the Suns this summer? Does he want to finish out his career on a middling team with absolutely no shot at a title? If I'm the Cs, I have to get at least Nash and Gortat for Rondo, and get assurances from Nash that he will hang around to finish out his career. That trade is one way to stretch out the window for the Big 3. Two more years after this one with four old guys trying to school the young whippersnappers in the league. it would be a fun offensive team, with the best shooting PG ever, top 5 shooting SG and PF ever, all in the same line up.

[Three10toLeft]

I think my head just exploded at the thought of trading Rondo for another aging veteran.

Really?

How on earth does that make us better now or in the future?

We'll have more cap room for the off season, but the cupboard will be even barer so you'd be even more hard pressed to find a free agent that wants to play here without seriously overpaying him.

The one thing the Celtics do well when they are somewhat healthy, is play sound defense. You are pretty much sabotaging that aspect of their game, and giving them a slight bump in the offensive department.

Their is nothing this team can do to put them in a position to win a championship this year. Nothing. I don't know why people are having these delusions of grandeur. Ride this thing out for the rest of the year, hopefully pride will be able to carry this team to at least a victory in the first round, but more than likely not. Not to mention you'd be taking Nash away from the best medical/training staff in the NBA.

The object of fixing this team isn't to get older, re: Nash, we need to get younger. And the faintest of chances that Nash might increase our championship hopes from 5% this year to 8%, isn't really worth giving up our lone building block for the future. Whether Rondo stays here for the next iteration of the Celtics, or is traded for pieces that can help contribute to the next championship caliber squad.

Is Nash really going to re-up with the Suns this summer? Does he want to finish out his career on a middling team with absolutely no shot at a title?

What on earth do you think the Celtics are, if they aren't a middling team with no shot at a title?

Edited by Three10toLeft, 14 March 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Brickowski]

The prize in the proposed deal is Gortat, not Nash.

[Three10toLeft]

The prize in the proposed deal is Gortat, not Nash.

Two more years of Gortat at about 7.5 total isn't too bad.

But without a proper point guard setting him up (why would Nash resign?), he's over paid. No one on this team would draw a double team, or force the defense to pay attention to them, other than Pierce, which would enable him to draw his open looks.

That seems like a horrible idea, whether you're looking at Gortat as the prize, or Nash.

[dolomite133]

Replacing old talent with younger talent is the priority now. It doesn't matter who or how. The idea is to create a strong supporting cast and hope to land (or draft, or grow) an all-star or two.

Trading Rondo for Nash and Gortat doesn't do that. However, if the Celtics feel like Gortat is going to continue to grow into a franchise player I say why not? As has been previously stated, a much higher percentage of teams win with all-star centers (or power forwards), not all-star point guards. At this point the Celtics need to gamble one way or the other if they want A SHOT at competing for a title in the near future.

And if we can replace Rondo with a competent distributor (who can hit free throws) and then transition from Pierce/Ray to volume scoring wing, well, that's a recipe for at least remaining relevent -- and puts us an all-star away from once again being contenders.

Edited by dolomite133, 14 March 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Brickowski]

Think "Austin Rivers" as a possible Rondo replacement.

[LukefromNH]

If Danny trades Rondo for Gasol, he should be shot in the back of his head Ol' Yeller style.

Yea, I mean I am not in the camp of Rondo is the greatest PG in the NBA, but I sure as hell would rather have him than an aging Gasol that would not get us a title anyways. Rondo is at the very least a piece we can build around with some young guys who can run the floor. I'd much rather have that than add another Methuselah to the roster. Gasol is averaging career lows this year and is not going to improve anytime soon.

I realize this is old news right now, but really it bothers me the Lakers had to turn this deal down for it not to happen especially after Danny adamantly claimed that Rondo was not on the block.

Edited by LukefromNH, 14 March 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[dolomite133]

Yea, I mean I am not in the camp of Rondo is the greatest PG in the NBA, but I sure as hell would rather have him than an aging Gasol that would not get us a title anyways. Rondo is at the very least a piece we can build around with some young guys who can run the floor. I'd much rather have that than add another Methuselah to the roster. Gasol is averaging career lows this year and is not going to improve anytime soon.

I realize this is old news right now, but really it bothers me the Lakers had to turn this deal down for it not to happen especially after Danny adamantly claimed that Rondo was not on the block.

I'd like to add a comment. I think Rondo is great, but on pretty much ANY championship team HE is the complementary player. Arguably he is one of the best complementary players in the league. He would probably be one of the pieces surrounding other stars (as he has been already). Just my take.

[bowiac]

I'd like to add a comment. I think Rondo is great, but on pretty much ANY championship team HE is the complementary player. Arguably he is one of the best complementary players in the league. He would probably be one of the pieces surrounding other stars (as he has been already). Just my take.

The 2009-2010 Celtics were a championship team (as in, they could just as easily have won game 7 as lost it, and Rondo's is not why they lost). Rondo was probably the 2nd best player on that team, and not a complementary piece.

Do I think he can be the best player on a team that wins a title? Eh, aside from some really weird scenario, probably not. But he can be the 2nd best guy, sure.

[Nick Kaufman]

Besides, that I am beginning to think that the whole division between star players and complementary pieces is arbitrary and counterproductive.

Can you get a team 8 to 10 deep that's going to be better than the rest of the teams? Yes? You re all set. What I think is far more important than trying to find stars and complementary pieces is getting extra value out of the contracts you pay to particular players while making sure that each player fits such a role that in the end the sum of the team is larger than its parts.

[AlNipper49]

[JohnnyTheBone]

Besides, that I am beginning to think that the whole division between star players and complementary pieces is arbitrary and counterproductive.

Can you get a team 8 to 10 deep that's going to be better than the rest of the teams? Yes? You re all set. What I think is far more important than trying to find stars and complementary pieces is getting extra value out of the contracts you pay to particular players while making sure that each player fits such a role that in the end the sum of the team is larger than its parts.

This gets to the heart of what is so very wrong with the NBA. Everybody just accepts the "Star System", how the designated stars get preferential treatment from referees. What is a "SPECTACULAR BLOCK BY DWIGHT HOWARD!!" becomes just "another foul on Stiemsma". The widely held belief that you can't win a championship without "stars" in the NBA is because you won't be able to win the title at the free throw line, as LA did in 2010. Deep teams without "star power" would likely win more championships, but we'll never know until David Stern is gone and the referee system is razed and redirected.

[JakeRae]

This gets to the heart of what is so very wrong with the NBA. Everybody just accepts the "Star System", how the designated stars get preferential treatment from referees. What is a "SPECTACULAR BLOCK BY DWIGHT HOWARD!!" becomes just "another foul on Stiemsma". The widely held belief that you can't win a championship without "stars" in the NBA is because you won't be able to win the title at the free throw line, as LA did in 2010. Deep teams without "star power" would likely win more championships, but we'll never know until David Stern is gone and the referee system is razed and redirected.

While the officiating is a factor, the major factor in the importance of elite talent in the NBA is the existence of max contracts. Arbitrarily restricting the amount of money that can be paid to the best players makes those players extraordinarily more valuable than their contracts. Not only that, but the existence of the max contract also serves to inflate the cost of mid-tier talent making it virtually impossible to assemble a balanced, deep team of good players rather than a star dominated team. Max contracts make a lot of sense for the players since it creates a more equitable distribution of wealth, but it is terrible for the overall product of the league and competitive balance. Max contracts are also the only reason the Heat exist. If Lebron was getting $30 million plus offers, there is no way he signs for half that to play with Bosh and Wade. It's easy to sacrifice a couple million a year when you make as much as these guys do, but $10 or $20 million is a whole different story.

[ifmanis5]

Starting to feel like Rondo may pick up a few MVP votes if the Celtics finish up strong.

[wutang112878]

This made me gasp, not because you are incorrect but this may be the last thing the Celts need. I am terrified of what Rondos attitude might be like if he were to be even an MVP longshot. If he got serious consideration we might have to trade him.

[BigSoxFan]

This made me gasp, not because you are incorrect but this may be the last thing the Celts need. I am terrified of what Rondos attitude might be like if he were to be even an MVP longshot. If he got serious consideration we might have to trade him.

Eh, given that he has to be told by his coach to shoot more, I think we'd be ok.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I wouldn't worry about it. He might pick up a few votes but the usual suspects will get most of the votes and guys like Westbrook, Griffin, and Love would probably get more votes too. The idea of Rondo's fragile psyche is way overblown anyway.

[BucketOBalls]

While the officiating is a factor, the major factor in the importance of elite talent in the NBA is the existence of max contracts. Arbitrarily restricting the amount of money that can be paid to the best players makes those players extraordinarily more valuable than their contracts. Not only that, but the existence of the max contract also serves to inflate the cost of mid-tier talent making it virtually impossible to assemble a balanced, deep team of good players rather than a star dominated team. Max contracts make a lot of sense for the players since it creates a more equitable distribution of wealth, but it is terrible for the overall product of the league and competitive balance. Max contracts are also the only reason the Heat exist. If Lebron was getting $30 million plus offers, there is no way he signs for half that to play with Bosh and Wade. It's easy to sacrifice a couple million a year when you make as much as these guys do, but $10 or $20 million is a whole different story.

There is actually a couple reasons stars are important. One that is under rated is that true star players tend to be durable(usually well above average). If you have 1 or 2 stars who are pretty durable, then when random injuries hit, it's more likey to be a player that is more replaceable. (and you may get lucky if an injury does hit your stars, AKA the Suprs ).

[slamminsammya]

This made me gasp, not because you are incorrect but this may be the last thing the Celts need. I am terrified of what Rondos attitude might be like if he were to be even an MVP longshot. If he got serious consideration we might have to trade him.

You would think that games like last night's would make people get off this armchair psychologizing garbage...

[wutang112878]

You would think that games like last night's would make people get off this armchair psychologizing garbage...

Read between the lines of these quotes:

"If you know Rondo, you know he's an 'I'll show you' kind of player," Garnett observed. "This game had enough juice on it to be the kind he's interested in."

"That's the Rondo we like to see, playing with all that energy," said teammate Paul Pierce,

I dont have any issues with his numbers, just concerned about his attitude and Docs ability to work with him. And quotes like this are what keep me concerned.

[Koufax]

I think the playoffs have enough juice as well. Rondo will be fine.

Not everyone can muster Bird's or KG's intensity for every game. I wouldn't call that an attitude problem. It is more like a normal personality. KG and Bird are off the deep end, competitively, and you can't expect that of everyone.

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I'm not sure how best to put this, but Rondo takes a beating every time I see him play, so I have to guess that there are games when he's going to settle for staying on the perimeter rather than driving to the basket.

I know this doesn't bode well for his longevity but we've been through this before.

[CaptainLaddie]

He's a lot like AI in that respect -- Iverson was NOTORIOUS for taking a beating and he missed a lot of games as a result. Hopefully Rondo doesn't end up playing just 232 games over his last 4 seasons.

[JakeRae]

There is actually a couple reasons stars are important. One that is under rated is that true star players tend to be durable(usually well above average). If you have 1 or 2 stars who are pretty durable, then when random injuries hit, it's more likey to be a player that is more replaceable. (and you may get lucky if an injury does hit your stars, AKA the Suprs ).

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this could very well be a case of selection bias.

First, the better the player, the more likely they are to be on the court when suffering from nagging injuries or injuries that require offseason surgery but won't be made worse. Kobe this season is a prime example of this phenomenon. So, stars likely appear more durable than they really are because they can lose more production to injuries and still be worth playing.

Second, elite talents who don't get hurt when they are young become stars and appear durable. Elite talents who do get hurt young don't become stars. Is it that stars are durable or that players who have been durable and are elite talents are stars?

[ifmanis5]

Glad he stayed.

Also glad he's not doing the Olympics after watching him go 48 minutes a game in the playoffs.