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Rondo and the Future of the Celtics


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Poll: Rondo and the Future of the Celtics (194 member(s) have cast votes)

What will be the outcome of the Rondo trade chatter?

  1. He stays, but is a malcontent (23 votes [14.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.84%

  2. He stays, plays great with a chip on his shoulder (52 votes [33.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.55%

  3. He stays and the trade talk doesn't affect him (51 votes [32.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.90%

  4. He is traded no matter what, he can't come back at this point (15 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  5. He is traded, but only for a superstar (14 votes [9.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.03%

Can this franchise build around Rondo?

  1. Yes, he is an elite PG (17 votes [10.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.97%

  2. Yes, but he needs another star or two around him (106 votes [68.39%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.39%

  3. No, he's not good enough (32 votes [20.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.65%

Post-Chris Paul- What should Danny do?

  1. Just play out the year with one last run of the big 3 + Rondo (86 votes [55.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.48%

  2. Continue to push to trade Rondo in a package for a star (40 votes [25.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.81%

  3. Blow it up (29 votes [18.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.71%

Vote

#101 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

The vibe I am getting from a lot of you guys is that what you really want is a Dean Smith style running team that competes in the NBA.

I want to like Rondo but the guy comes off as an asshole with a huge chip on his shoulder that he takes out on his coach, his teammates, the refs, and himself. I wish he could get it together, when he is not playing basketball he seems like a decent dude. OTOH, getting on hob because he is the one guy here who doesn't like him is a bit lame. I realize this is the internet, but this is a player that had trouble with his high school coaches, had trouble with Tubby Smith, had (has?) trouble with Doc Rivers, and who lapses into behavior that shows the earlier things are not a thing of the past.

You can surround him with players that make use of his talents but I don't think he is a guy you want as the best player on your team. Sure, he would help the Lakers where Fisher can't run anymore or hit a shot...and there is a HoF wing, a great 4, and a 7' guy with post moves to receive his passes. He would help the Heat, but so would anyone with a pulse. I do think he would work well with Durant as I have said before. But those aren't the questions you should be asking because that's not what the Celtics have.


For me..i just want two of the other four players to be able to make it up the court with Rondo if there is a possible fast break...or maybe release once in a while for easy points. This team has become a static jump shooting team that doesn't even try to rebound on the offensive end so that they can retreat back to the defensive end and stop any fast breaks...this means that each game that at least two or three of their core have to have great games from outside...which is increasingly difficult on old legs on back to backs and back to back to backs. There is certainly a chasm between Dean Smith's (or Roy Williams') teams and the current Boston 5...I'd like a team somewhere in the middle.

Regarding Rondo...I don't quite get why Boston's best players are skewered...maybe it's because we expect a lot...maybe the criticism is deserved. But to me it's a question of perception...When Brady shows the same fire and yells at his teammates we don't automatically say his teammates hate him or he's a petulant child or he needs to grow up etc. Rondo has had to speak up because he has been on a team of vets that wouldn't respect him if he hadn't..he plays the most demanding position on the floor in terms of keeping everyone happy and to my eye he's done a pretty good job. This is his first suspension...he's not all of a sudden Rasheed. The guy freakin played with a busted elbow through the playoffs...which doesn't seem like something a selfish asshole would do..or someone that I would hate as a teammate.

I'm still waiting for the scores of articles that nighthob has read that detail how much his fellow players hate him or the scores of incidents Rondo has been involved in that show his immaturity and general assholery... maybe i don't see enough games, but the thing i'm disappointed in is that he has seemed to stop going to the hole and has instead joined his other teammates in an arc around the three point line.

#102 smastroyin


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:06 PM

Rondo has been "Skewered" at every level of his amateur and professional career, which was my point. You can bemoan the Boston thing and completely exempt him and that's fine, I'm not here to tell you what your opinion should be, but it's not like the smoke has just started when he arrived in Boston.

#103 BucketOBalls


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:39 PM

Rondo is Joe Johnson's ASG replacement.

Anyway, it's sort of funny the way all players are either great teammates that are universally loved or locker room cancers acording to the media. I think Rondo probably falls in between.

#104 lars10

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:49 AM

Rondo has been "Skewered" at every level of his amateur and professional career, which was my point. You can bemoan the Boston thing and completely exempt him and that's fine, I'm not here to tell you what your opinion should be, but it's not like the smoke has just started when he arrived in Boston.

I guess my point is is that yes Rondo has been skewered by the media? fans? at every stage (i'm taking your word on high school)..but he wasn't a very likable player in kentucky..but he was playing for Tubby Smith who I don't think was a very good coach. Yes he had a run-in with Doc Rivers early, but I think he was very young at that point.

What I'm saying is..why do I care what the media says? Half of what they're saying is either hyperbole, made up, conjecture, opinion or out and out lies. And even with that there really haven't been a ton of stories on how much of a malcontent Rondo is...just the repeated refrain of how he's cocky or he had trouble with Doc early or he sometimes butts heads with teammates. I don't see any of that on the court..or very rarely. I don't go to practice to see it there...I'm not in the locker room.

I want players that get frustrated when their team is losing.

I can concede that there at times has been smoke..definitely at Kentucky and early here in Boston...but all he's done is play pretty good basketball since and handled himself pretty well even though his best friend was traded, he has been offered up in trades and been basically railed on..even though he's become the best player on the team (albeit from a regression by the other three).

Edit: With that said I do think there are areas of his game he can obviously improve..and I think he has regressed a bit into some bad habits this year, but when do we start blaming Ainge (probably happened already) for not putting talent or a cohesive unit around him and the other big three (albeit a little/very unlucky)..or Doc for not changing anything about how this team is playing (even though he has been very unlucky with injuries this year).

Edited by lars10, 23 February 2012 - 09:53 AM.


#105 smastroyin


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:27 AM

You can blame whoever you want. Danny did try to change the tempo of the team with the Perk deal and it flopped, though. It's hard to make bigger changes than that when you are so far over the cap.

There is a fundamental divide between people like you who think Rondo is a foundation player and people like me who think he is a good to great point guard but more of a complimentary piece. I get that. It's a hard bridge to cross. I think building a team around Rondo's talents is kind of not a great idea because those teams don't often work in the NBA. In my opinion (and I think the circumstantial evidence says that in Danny Ainge's opinion, and probably the opinion of the other 29 GMs), a team with Rajon Rondo as its best player is not going to be a deep playoff team.

#106 CreightonGubanich

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:42 AM

I think, if it's possible, I fall somewhere in between. I don't think you build a team around Rondo by just surrounding him with a bunch of athletes. But I think Rondo at times gets shortchanged as a point guard in the halfcourt offense. Yes, his lack of shooting ability presents some unique challenges in the makeup of a team, and that gets frustrating. But I think Rondo is legitimately the best passing point guard in the NBA (with the possible exception of Chris Paul). He's capable of creating offense in the halfcourt as well, he's not just a one-man fast break.

In the end, I don't know if I'd "build my team" around Rondo. He definitely needs to play with a volume scorer who doesn't need the ball in his hands constantly (Rondo-Durant would be a dream pairing). Rondo should never be your first or even second option on offense for a championship team. But I do think he's capable of being the best overall player. Hell, he's been the best player on the Celtics for the past couple years, and those teams have been title contenders. Obviously they didn't win, and Rondo's flaws factored into that.

What to do with Rondo? Well, if you're starting from scratch, there are worse players to start with given his talent and contract. I think he makes the right players better by playing with them. It just doesn't make sense to me to trade him for an inferior player. If you can bring in Deron Williams and extend him, you do it in a heartbeat.

#107 mandro ramtinez

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:04 AM

Hell, he's been the best player on the Celtics for the past couple years


I've frequently seen people write that Rondo has been the best Celtic the last couple of seasons but in my opinion, Pierce has been the team's best and most essential player for the last two or three seasons. I also think that an argument can be made that beacuse of Garnett's defensive contributions, Garnett jumps ahead of Rondo too.

#108 CreightonGubanich

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:23 AM

I've frequently seen people write that Rondo has been the best Celtic the last couple of seasons but in my opinion, Pierce has been the team's best and most essential player for the last two or three seasons. I also think that an argument can be made that beacuse of Garnett's defensive contributions, Garnett jumps ahead of Rondo too.


Yeah, it's a chicken/egg thing that I can't quite answer. I think part of the reason the Big Three have continued to be effective into their older years is because Rondo makes their life a lot easier. I think he's the engine that makes everything run. But I have to admit, the way Pierce played when Rondo was hurt -- basically playing point forward, initiating the offense, scoring when he wanted/needed to, etc. -- made me rethink that a bit. Those three are pretty even across the board, but that's kind of my point. Rondo might be the best player on a title contender, but he's going to need some pretty impressive company to do it. Several offensive threats on the floor with him, including a volume scorer who can create his own shot.

I mean, if you put Rondo on the Knicks, and surrounded the Rondo/Melo/Amare/Chandler core with the right role players, could that team win a title? Would Rondo be the best player on that team? I say yes to both of those questions, but plenty of reasonable people would disagree.

#109 wutang112878


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:24 PM

I think Rondo is a very talented PG, and a very unique player who has a speed mis-match with about 99% of the guys that would ever cover him. Having said that, I submit some evidence:

Posted Image

Forsbergs caption, which says it all, "Doc stares a hole through Rondo"

And from todays Celts notebook from the Globe:

Doc Rivers yesterday confirmed what Rajon Rondo has been keeping to himself the past two weeks. Rivers said Rondo was bothered by being left off the All-Star team. Rivers said Rondo was bothered by being left off the All-Star team, and it led to a noticeable increase in his production and perhaps his two-game suspension.

"I think it bothered him"....


For a PG who is 26, has played 6 years in the league, and already been an AllStar and has a ring, this type of crap should not be happening. If you want to get upset about being snubbed from the AllStar team and increase your intensity on the court, great. But you cant let it affect you in a negative way, and thats what happened. This is just not a guy you can build your franchise around after the BIg3. He has the talent, but the attitude issues/problems will always be what holds him back from being the best player on a team that could actually win a title.

As a result, once Danny throws in the towel and decides to start the rebuilding process (which I hope is soon as in before the deadline by the way), I really hope he trades Rondo now, sells high, and gets as much as he can for him. Because if we think we have problems with Rondo now, with 3 players who are likely Hall of Famers trying to keep him in check, imagine the problems we will see if the BIg 3 move on and he is the 'leader' on a team of young guys, his value will plummet very fast.

Edited by wutang112878, 23 February 2012 - 12:25 PM.


#110 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:06 PM

You can blame whoever you want. Danny did try to change the tempo of the team with the Perk deal and it flopped, though. It's hard to make bigger changes than that when you are so far over the cap.

There is a fundamental divide between people like you who think Rondo is a foundation player and people like me who think he is a good to great point guard but more of a complimentary piece. I get that. It's a hard bridge to cross. I think building a team around Rondo's talents is kind of not a great idea because those teams don't often work in the NBA. In my opinion (and I think the circumstantial evidence says that in Danny Ainge's opinion, and probably the opinion of the other 29 GMs), a team with Rajon Rondo as its best player is not going to be a deep playoff team.


I think you misread what I'm meaning or are reading things into them that aren't there. I don't think Rondo SHOULD be the best player on the team..he just is at the moment. I want Danny to build a team with him..not him being the centerpiece..i think he's a pass-first PG and I want someone for him to pass to at all times..that means having younger players who can shoot, but also run.

#111 lexrageorge

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

Some of the comments about Rondo's maturity remind me very much of similar comments made regarding Paul Pierce after his meltdown in a Game 7 (!!) playoff loss to Indiana a few years back. And Pierce was 27 back then. So, as much as we want Rondo to behave to some certain ideal, keep in mind that these are uber-competitive athletes we're dealing with here. Pierce acquitted himself quite well when he was a few years older. Rondo's maturity seems to be pretty much within a standard deviation of the norm for 26 y/o NBA talents.

Makes far more sense to focus on whether we think it's possible to build a team around Rondo's talents, or if Rondo is better off as a key but complementary piece on a younger, faster, more talented team. I must admit the jury is still out on that. Again, however, similar things were said about Pierce a few years ago, albeit Pierce being a very different type of player.

#112 lars10

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

I think Rondo is a very talented PG, and a very unique player who has a speed mis-match with about 99% of the guys that would ever cover him. Having said that, I submit some evidence:

Posted Image

Forsbergs caption, which says it all, "Doc stares a hole through Rondo"

And from todays Celts notebook from the Globe:



For a PG who is 26, has played 6 years in the league, and already been an AllStar and has a ring, this type of crap should not be happening. If you want to get upset about being snubbed from the AllStar team and increase your intensity on the court, great. But you cant let it affect you in a negative way, and thats what happened. This is just not a guy you can build your franchise around after the BIg3. He has the talent, but the attitude issues/problems will always be what holds him back from being the best player on a team that could actually win a title.

As a result, once Danny throws in the towel and decides to start the rebuilding process (which I hope is soon as in before the deadline by the way), I really hope he trades Rondo now, sells high, and gets as much as he can for him. Because if we think we have problems with Rondo now, with 3 players who are likely Hall of Famers trying to keep him in check, imagine the problems we will see if the BIg 3 move on and he is the 'leader' on a team of young guys, his value will plummet very fast.


I'd submit that Doc isn't even looking at Rondo in that photo...looks from the angle of his head that he's looking over his left shoulder...
the only time i've seen Doc that angry is when talking to one of the Rookies.

Rondo is playing with 3 future HOFers that are well past their prime...with their expiring contracts Danny should be able to find players of at least equal talent to where they are right now, but much, much younger.

And as many people that write about Rondo being the best player there are those that constantly harp on his "attitude problems" or articles such as the one above where people presume to think what Rondo is thinking....and even when something bothers him...just so we get this straight...we're complaining about a "significant increase in production and PERHAPS his two game suspension"... We're ragging on him for trying harder when he feels slighted. Only in Boston.

Edited by lars10, 23 February 2012 - 03:01 PM.


#113 wutang112878


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:31 PM

Some of the comments about Rondo's maturity remind me very much of similar comments made regarding Paul Pierce after his meltdown in a Game 7 (!!) playoff loss to Indiana a few years back. And Pierce was 27 back then. So, as much as we want Rondo to behave to some certain ideal, keep in mind that these are uber-competitive athletes we're dealing with here. Pierce acquitted himself quite well when he was a few years older. Rondo's maturity seems to be pretty much within a standard deviation of the norm for 26 y/o NBA talents.


Pierce had maturity issues as well, absolutely. But after that Indiana game I believe he took his shirt off and then went to the post-game press stuff with a stupid bandage on? And Pierce also complained and acted like a diva and almost went down the trade route, etc. I just think Rondos behavior is different because he cant mesh with 3 future Hall of Famers, even when they were in their primes and playing well in 08. I believe Doc told a story about how Rondo insisted on having a players meeting and Doc pleaded not to do it because people were going to get pissed and Rondo forced Perk to stand up and say stuff against the Big3, etc. The analogy I would make with Rondo is that he reminds me of Kobe when he was dueling and battling with Shaq for control of the Lakers, however I would argue that Kobe is infinitely more talented than Rondo is, which is why it was worthwhile to deal with for a Kobe but not for Rondo IMO anyway.

Makes far more sense to focus on whether we think it's possible to build a team around Rondo's talents, or if Rondo is better off as a key but complementary piece on a younger, faster, more talented team. I must admit the jury is still out on that. Again, however, similar things were said about Pierce a few years ago, albeit Pierce being a very different type of player.


I would agree that its possible to build a team around Rondos talents, considering the numbers Lin has put up lately imagine what Rondo could do in a full up-tempo no defense system like NY. However, personally I am much more concerned about Rondo being a leader on a team of young players, I simply dont think his ego/attitude/defiance would allow a young team like that to truly reach its potential.

Edited by wutang112878, 23 February 2012 - 04:32 PM.


#114 wutang112878


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:38 PM

I'd submit that Doc isn't even looking at Rondo in that photo...looks from the angle of his head that he's looking over his left shoulder...
the only time i've seen Doc that angry is when talking to one of the Rookies.


IIRC from the game Doc was pissed because they werent running the offensive plays he was actually calling and it was borderline chaos out there, and based on that I think it makes a lot of sense that he would pretty furious at Rondo.

Rondo is playing with 3 future HOFers that are well past their prime...with their expiring contracts Danny should be able to find players of at least equal talent to where they are right now, but much, much younger.

And as many people that write about Rondo being the best player there are those that constantly harp on his "attitude problems" or articles such as the one above where people presume to think what Rondo is thinking....and even when something bothers him...just so we get this straight...we're complaining about a "significant increase in production and PERHAPS his two game suspension"... We're ragging on him for trying harder when he feels slighted. Only in Boston.


As I just said upthread Rondo was also arguing and battling with the 3 HOFers in 08 when they were playing at a high level.

I am not arguing about an increase in production, I am arguing that a 6 year veteran shouldnt let an all-star snub bother him to the point that it has a negative effect on the court, which it has. The same way last year Rondo shouldnt have been sulking on the court after they traded his best friend away. As a person I absolutely hate him, but I will give Kobe credit in that every game I have ever seen him play he gives 100%, hurt, with an almost bone on bone knee, with a tendon torn in his hand, whatever it is you can tell he is giving you everything he has. With Rondo there are emotional issues that can affect how he plays on the court. Thats what bothers me about him and while I still think he is a great player why I dont want the next version of the Celts to be built around him. The same way I wouldnt want to build a team around Dwight Howard because he seems like a knucklehead.

#115 smastroyin


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

How is Rondo going to play pick and roll when everyone is happy to leave him open for a shot?

#116 CreightonGubanich

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:52 PM

IIRC from the game Doc was pissed because they werent running the offensive plays he was actually calling and it was borderline chaos out there, and based on that I think it makes a lot of sense that he would pretty furious at Rondo.



As I just said upthread Rondo was also arguing and battling with the 3 HOFers in 08 when they were playing at a high level.

I am not arguing about an increase in production, I am arguing that a 6 year veteran shouldnt let an all-star snub bother him to the point that it has a negative effect on the court, which it has. The same way last year Rondo shouldnt have been sulking on the court after they traded his best friend away. As a person I absolutely hate him, but I will give Kobe credit in that every game I have ever seen him play he gives 100%, hurt, with an almost bone on bone knee, with a tendon torn in his hand, whatever it is you can tell he is giving you everything he has. With Rondo there are emotional issues that can affect how he plays on the court. Thats what bothers me about him and while I still think he is a great player why I dont want the next version of the Celts to be built around him. The same way I wouldnt want to build a team around Dwight Howard because he seems like a knucklehead.


Not that it changes the overall point about Rondo's clashes with Doc and other coaches, but I'm pretty sure that photo is from this game:

http://espn.go.com/b...he-awful-effort

February 10th at Toronto, and he's talking to JuJuan Johnson. Doc commented after that game that he was pissed because one guy on the floor didn't know what play was called: "Two guys knew the play, one guy didn’t -- and just one guy didn’t. And everybody, it drains energy. Not being a professional drains energy. Being a professional is knowing every set you run, knowing your rotations, because it’s draining for the pros who know, who do the work."

Johnson admitted later that Doc was talking about him:
http://espn.go.com/b...ges-contributor

#117 lexrageorge

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

Pierce had maturity issues as well, absolutely. But after that Indiana game I believe he took his shirt off and then went to the post-game press stuff with a stupid bandage on? And Pierce also complained and acted like a diva and almost went down the trade route, etc. I just think Rondos behavior is different because he cant mesh with 3 future Hall of Famers, even when they were in their primes and playing well in 08. I believe Doc told a story about how Rondo insisted on having a players meeting and Doc pleaded not to do it because people were going to get pissed and Rondo forced Perk to stand up and say stuff against the Big3, etc. The analogy I would make with Rondo is that he reminds me of Kobe when he was dueling and battling with Shaq for control of the Lakers, however I would argue that Kobe is infinitely more talented than Rondo is, which is why it was worthwhile to deal with for a Kobe but not for Rondo IMO anyway.


Actually, that meeting occurred the 2008-09 season, and it occurred when the Celtics were in a deep slump after Garnett went down for what turned out to be a season-ending knee injury. Rondo was also 22 at the time.

I would agree that its possible to build a team around Rondos talents, considering the numbers Lin has put up lately imagine what Rondo could do in a full up-tempo no defense system like NY. However, personally I am much more concerned about Rondo being a leader on a team of young players, I simply dont think his ego/attitude/defiance would allow a young team like that to truly reach its potential.


The same was indeed said about Pierce. And Pierce did have his run-ins with Garnett early in the 2007-08 season, and with Doc during the several seasons prior.

#118 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:06 PM

I am not arguing about an increase in production, I am arguing that a 6 year veteran shouldnt let an all-star snub bother him to the point that it has a negative effect on the court, which it has.


That's nonsense. You yourself is saying that the all-star snub made him play better and the proof that he's a cancer for this team is a photo that has been discredited and the fact that he threw a ball to the ref. And the fact THAT HE KEPT TO HIMSELF FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS. OH MY GOD, HE CAN"T BE DOING THIS TO THE TEAM!

Let's get a grip shall we?

What Smas is arguing has much more value. He can't shoot, it's tough to run the pick and roll when he can't shoot. But also I think he's built a straw man. I don't think anyone is arguing that Rondo should be the foundation or the best player of the team.

The argument is between two viewpoints:

1. Trade Rondo in order to get pieces and rebuild through the draft.

or

2. Keep Rondo and wait for some salaries to be shed in order to rebuild through free agency.

I guess both ways can work, though I think at the end of the day, there's so much uncertainty with any scenario that it boils down to luck.

The real division might be however between those who like Rondo's game and those who don't. I happen to like the way Rondo plays. Mostly because he hustles, he runs, he's fearless, he looks for the open man. So, all things being equal, I would rather have that in my team.

#119 Brickowski

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:19 PM

I like the fact that Rondo threw the ball at the ref. It showed that he cares.

These discussions of personality issues are not constructive. Rondo is what he is: a unique talent with flaws. Of course you trade him in the right deal, but you don't run him out of town either.

#120 Sprowl


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:23 AM

That's nonsense. You yourself is saying that the all-star snub made him play better and the proof that he's a cancer for this team is a photo that has been discredited and the fact that he threw a ball to the ref. And the fact THAT HE KEPT TO HIMSELF FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS. OH MY GOD, HE CAN"T BE DOING THIS TO THE TEAM!

Let's get a grip shall we?

What Smas is arguing has much more value. He can't shoot, it's tough to run the pick and roll when he can't shoot. But also I think he's built a straw man. I don't think anyone is arguing that Rondo should be the foundation or the best player of the team.

The argument is between two viewpoints:

1. Trade Rondo in order to get pieces and rebuild through the draft.

or

2. Keep Rondo and wait for some salaries to be shed in order to rebuild through free agency.

I guess both ways can work, though I think at the end of the day, there's so much uncertainty with any scenario that it boils down to luck.

The real division might be however between those who like Rondo's game and those who don't. I happen to like the way Rondo plays. Mostly because he hustles, he runs, he's fearless, he looks for the open man. So, all things being equal, I would rather have that in my team.


The Big Three + Rondo have broken down as a team, both physically and competitively, so there's not much longer for the Celtics in this incarnation. Whether Rondo has the mental fortitude to lead a rebuilding (ie, losing) team is a legitimate question, and I have to think that an experienced pass-first, distributor has more value to a contender than a rebuilder, so the odds favor Rondo and Allen being traded for draft picks, exceptions and spare parts this year, Garnett expiring this summer, and Pierce being traded to a contender at the 2013 trading deadline.

If Rondo goes, I'll miss him more than any other player on the team. I like Rondo's game and his unique athletic gifts. He's still on my NBA all-watchable team. He's a great ballhawker, a fine playmaker, a reliable ballhandler and a completely unselfish distributor. He's got significant deficiences in his jump shot (which is improving), free throw shooting (which still sucks), and man-on-man defense. Every team needs someone like Rondo, and good teams can mask his deficiencies. He'll get his next championship ring before any other current Celtic.

The simple pick-and-roll isn't Rondo's best halfcourt game. He's much better when initiating the game off the dribble. He did this best in 2010, when he turned down the jumper, drove baseline, came around the other side, and got the ball to Pierce or Allen when the defense eventually broke down. As often as not, the ball would end up in Garnett's hands for an open 20-footer. Rondo is not driving as often now, which is a pity, but he's still the best player on the Celtics and fully capable of taking over a game against the right matchup or the right team.

#121 lars10

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:33 AM

That's nonsense. You yourself is saying that the all-star snub made him play better and the proof that he's a cancer for this team is a photo that has been discredited and the fact that he threw a ball to the ref. And the fact THAT HE KEPT TO HIMSELF FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS. OH MY GOD, HE CAN"T BE DOING THIS TO THE TEAM!

Let's get a grip shall we?

What Smas is arguing has much more value. He can't shoot, it's tough to run the pick and roll when he can't shoot. But also I think he's built a straw man. I don't think anyone is arguing that Rondo should be the foundation or the best player of the team.

The argument is between two viewpoints:

1. Trade Rondo in order to get pieces and rebuild through the draft.

or

2. Keep Rondo and wait for some salaries to be shed in order to rebuild through free agency.

I guess both ways can work, though I think at the end of the day, there's so much uncertainty with any scenario that it boils down to luck.

The real division might be however between those who like Rondo's game and those who don't. I happen to like the way Rondo plays. Mostly because he hustles, he runs, he's fearless, he looks for the open man. So, all things being equal, I would rather have that in my team.


What you wrote is exactly how I feel...except I still have questions about the 'he can't shoot part'...cause even though I do cringe when he shoots the ball I think he has a very capable shot from 20' in. He's obviously not a 3 point threat..which is maybe what you're arguing, but what is the best metric for determining if someone has a shot other than the eye test? His free throws are obviously awful and should improve and his 3 point % is ok but not great...his FG% is comparable or better to most PGs. I think over the last few years he's deferred to better shooters as a good PG should...when members of the big three have been hurt though he's definitely stepped up and been a very capable scorer.

#122 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:42 AM

As I just said upthread Rondo was also arguing and battling with the 3 HOFers in 08 when they were playing at a high level.

I am not arguing about an increase in production, I am arguing that a 6 year veteran shouldnt let an all-star snub bother him to the point that it has a negative effect on the court, which it has. The same way last year Rondo shouldnt have been sulking on the court after they traded his best friend away. As a person I absolutely hate him, but I will give Kobe credit in that every game I have ever seen him play he gives 100%, hurt, with an almost bone on bone knee, with a tendon torn in his hand, whatever it is you can tell he is giving you everything he has. With Rondo there are emotional issues that can affect how he plays on the court. Thats what bothers me about him and while I still think he is a great player why I dont want the next version of the Celts to be built around him. The same way I wouldnt want to build a team around Dwight Howard because he seems like a knucklehead.


1. I agree with you that Rondo was immature 4 years ago..we're arguing about now. Most 22 year olds are immature.
2. The all star snub didn't have a negative effect on the court..you're wrong...he's played better.
3. Have you watched the Celtics the past few years? Rondo has played hurt >period< Only reason Kobe has played through more injuries is because he's older and he talks about them a lot more.
4. Comparing Rondo to Dwight Howard is like comparing apples to donkeys. Dwight Howard is a semi waste of talent and a body where if he had an ounce of heart would/should score 40 a game and dominate the NBA. Instead he completely wastes his physical superiority and doesn't learn post moves, shoots fade-aways far more than he should and generally keeps his head in his buttox. He also clearly tries to hurt players on the defensive end and make it look like he didn't know what he was doing when he brings his arms down through the head/body of the player he is so much more physically superior to. Rondo on the other hand is a small PG that, although flawed, is competitive to a fault, scores and rebounds in the paint with the best of them in a much smaller frame. How many points and rebounds do you think Rondo would get if he had Dwight Howard's body?

#123 wutang112878


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:15 AM

Not that it changes the overall point about Rondo's clashes with Doc and other coaches, but I'm pretty sure that photo is from this game:

February 10th at Toronto, and he's talking to JuJuan Johnson. Doc commented after that game that he was pissed because one guy on the floor didn't know what play was called: "Two guys knew the play, one guy didn’t -- and just one guy didn’t. And everybody, it drains energy. Not being a professional drains energy. Being a professional is knowing every set you run, knowing your rotations, because it’s draining for the pros who know, who do the work."

Johnson admitted later that Doc was talking about him:


Thanks for pointing this out, I didnt see the Johnson quote, and based on Docs comments, the picture and Forsbergs caption I had assumed he was talking about Rondo.

Actually, that meeting occurred the 2008-09 season, and it occurred when the Celtics were in a deep slump after Garnett went down for what turned out to be a season-ending knee injury. Rondo was also 22 at the time.

The same was indeed said about Pierce. And Pierce did have his run-ins with Garnett early in the 2007-08 season, and with Doc during the several seasons prior.


The Pierce comparison makes a lot of sense, and when I think back about it I think I was ready to trade Pierce at the time as well. I would still argue that issues that Pierce had seem a little less significant because he wasnt a young guy playing with 3 HOFers, and he didnt have issues with coaches at almost every level of basketball that he played. But I will admit, yeah I thought Pierce had some issues and wasnt sure if we could ever build a team that would win a title around him. So I guess I need to have some more patience with Rondo. I think what really rubbed me the wrong way was, and I cant remember the exact game, but there was some playoff game that I went to and as I was going into the game [maybe 30 minutes before tipoff] Rondo came in at the same exact time. I was furious because there is no excuse for that, and I really have never looked at him the same way since then, so I have to work on re-evaluating my perception of him.

The argument is between two viewpoints:

1. Trade Rondo in order to get pieces and rebuild through the draft.

or

2. Keep Rondo and wait for some salaries to be shed in order to rebuild through free agency.

I guess both ways can work, though I think at the end of the day, there's so much uncertainty with any scenario that it boils down to luck.

The real division might be however between those who like Rondo's game and those who don't. I happen to like the way Rondo plays. Mostly because he hustles, he runs, he's fearless, he looks for the open man. So, all things being equal, I would rather have that in my team.


I personally like Rondos game on a talented team, but on a young team that is developing and his teammates are still learning to space the floor I think his numbers are going to look much worse, unless the Celts change to a full up-tempo no defense style like the Knicks. Which is why I would vote for 1, trade him either before the deadline or before he is playing with an untalented team because otherwise his value is going to plummet.

The Big Three + Rondo have broken down as a team, both physically and competitively, so there's not much longer for the Celtics in this incarnation. Whether Rondo has the mental fortitude to lead a rebuilding (ie, losing) team is a legitimate question, and I have to think that an experienced pass-first, distributor has more value to a contender than a rebuilder,


Thanks Sprowl, you have an uncanny ability to communicate some of my thoughts in a much more concise and intelligent manner than I can.


1. I agree with you that Rondo was immature 4 years ago..we're arguing about now. Most 22 year olds are immature.
2. The all star snub didn't have a negative effect on the court..you're wrong...he's played better.
3. Have you watched the Celtics the past few years? Rondo has played hurt >period< Only reason Kobe has played through more injuries is because he's older and he talks about them a lot more.
4. Comparing Rondo to Dwight Howard is like comparing apples to donkeys. Dwight Howard is a semi waste of talent and a body where if he had an ounce of heart would/should score 40 a game and dominate the NBA. Instead he completely wastes his physical superiority and doesn't learn post moves, shoots fade-aways far more than he should and generally keeps his head in his buttox. He also clearly tries to hurt players on the defensive end and make it look like he didn't know what he was doing when he brings his arms down through the head/body of the player he is so much more physically superior to. Rondo on the other hand is a small PG that, although flawed, is competitive to a fault, scores and rebounds in the paint with the best of them in a much smaller frame. How many points and rebounds do you think Rondo would get if he had Dwight Howard's body?


1 - As I mentioned above I have to try to change my perception and have more patience with Rondo, but what bugs me is I dont feel like he is learning or maturing as quickly as I wish or think he should considering the players and coaches he has around him to help him learn. So at 22 he was immature, in 08/09 he started that players only meeting that was a disaster, then last year he had the few weeks of sulking when Perk was traded, then this year he has the 2 game suspension for flipping the ball at the ref. It just seems like every year there is something dumb that he does, and maybe he is like a Manny who I think Billy Beane summarized perfectly when he was talking to the Sox about the GM job back in the daya by saying something to the effect of 'there are may 10% of the games where he is just somewhere else and you cant rely on him, but the other 90% he plays at a high level'. So maybe thats Rondo and I have to accept the 10% of the bad because the 90% of the good are so good.
2 - Maybe I am wrong but I thought, reading through the lines, that Doc was suggesting that the snub got him so upset that Doc thought that might have been what caused part of his frustration to throw the ball at the ref.
3 - Rondo has been a gamer absolutely, that wasnt why I was comparing him to Kobe. My point was when Kobe was battling for control of the Lakers with Shaq he was high-maintenance to deal with, and I would argue that Rondo is a big high-maintenance as well. My point was that Kobe is much more talented than Rondo, so it was worthwhile to deal with his issues, whereas Rondo is talented but I dont think is nearly as talented as Kobe
4 - IMO Rondo and Howard have different problems, and again I have to work to change my perception of Rondo, but its the problems that would cause me hesitation if I was a GM to build around either of them. Howard because he is a knucklehead and I question his desire for the game, Rondo because I really wonder if he could be controlled if he was considered the 'leader' of the team, and again I will admit I had the same questions about Pierce and was ultimately wrong about that one too. What I really wish, and would help us solve this debate, is if we could possibly get a truthful answer out of Doc about what his opinion is of Rondo running a team as the leader? Does he think he could control Rondo in such a situation, and is Rondo coachable to be trusted in such a situation. Those are my concerns, and yup I had the same exact ones about Pierce, but after Docs first year here where they butted heads the entire time it eventually worked out, I wish I knew what his projection of such a situation would be with Rondo.

#124 mandro ramtinez

  • 1149 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:18 AM

4. Comparing Rondo to Dwight Howard is like comparing apples to donkeys. Dwight Howard is a semi waste of talent and a body where if he had an ounce of heart would/should score 40 a game and dominate the NBA.


Howard is miles from a waste of talent and physical gifts. Howard is the best defensive player in the nba and the best rebounder. He is an effective offensive player with some deficiencies that he needs to improve. Rondo has nicely employed his physical gifts to become an above average point guard but Dwight Howard has used his physical tools to become on one of the five best basketball players in the league and he is completely dominant on the defensive end

You're right, comparing Howard to Rondo is like comparing apples to donkeys.

#125 wutang112878


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

Howard is miles from a waste of talent and physical gifts. Howard is the best defensive player in the nba and the best rebounder. He is an effective offensive player with some deficiencies that he needs to improve. Rondo has nicely employed his physical gifts to become an above average point guard but Dwight Howard has used his physical tools to become on one of the five best basketball players in the league and he is completely dominant on the defensive end


I dont think anyone is saying that Howard isnt a talented player in todays center-less NBA. I think those of us that are calling him a waste of talent are saying so because he does not utilize the physical gifts that he has. If he played in the early 80s he would not be considered an elite center because he would be playing against much more rounded and skilled centers. I would say the same thing about Shaq, he didnt even have to develop any basketball skills, if he had just kept himself to <10% body fat for his career he probably would have put up better numbers than Wilt, so I would say he didnt utilize all the physical gifts he had either. Same goes for Howard, he is a great defensive player but he prefers to send a block into the stands instead of tipping it and trying to retain possession, he has also never learned to play without fouling and letting fouls go without complaining, neither of which take much basketball skill training but just and understanding of how to play the game. Meanwhile the guy has incredible athletic ability for someone who is over 7 feet, but has never developed an effective go-to move or effective post-up game, the vast majority of his FGs come on dunks and instances where he is left open. Compare and contrast to say Hakeem Olajuwon and the turnaround/spin move combination he developed and offensively I dont think anyone would argue that he got the most out of his physical abilities.

#126 Brickowski

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:27 AM

The bottom line for me is that rebuilding won't have started until they obtain a good young center who can rebound, defend and score (more than Perkins did). It can be through the draft, via trade or via free agency. In fact I'd like two good young big men: a center and a 6-9 or 6-10 horse at power forward. If it takes a Rondo trade to get one of these players (or be in a position to get one), then you have to do it. If you can't get what you need by going that route, then by all means keep Rondo, because his greatest attribute is that he makes the players around him better, particularly in an up tempo style of play. He has great vision and a great handle. We all know his flaws, but IMHO his personality isn't one of them. He's a competitor and (being still only 25 years old) he wears that on his sleeve. So what?

#127 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:39 AM

Howard is miles from a waste of talent and physical gifts. Howard is the best defensive player in the nba and the best rebounder. He is an effective offensive player with some deficiencies that he needs to improve. Rondo has nicely employed his physical gifts to become an above average point guard but Dwight Howard has used his physical tools to become on one of the five best basketball players in the league and he is completely dominant on the defensive end

You're right, comparing Howard to Rondo is like comparing apples to donkeys.


I guess you and I are agreeing without saying the same thing. Of course at his height and physical strength Howard is going to dominate on the defensive end. He does have the most rebounds/game and rebounds per 48 (tied with Marcus Camby) but he is currently 7th in offensive RPG behind Cousins, Love, Greg Monroe, Kris Kardashian, Joakim Noah, and tied with his teammate Ryan Anderson. I didn't realize how much he is destroying the league on defensive rebounds.

Maybe I need to change my thoughts on Howard...but from watching him I don't think he's ever truly challenged himself to learn post moves. He is often falling away from the basket whenever he plays a physical defender instead of diving to the hole or bringing it strong. It could just be my perception, but I've never been upset when Howard got the ball in the post about four feet away from the basket. He can obviously dunk, but he does not yet shoot all that well from slightly farther out. If he had the touch Gasol had for instance he would be unstoppable, but he often throws it to the hoop way too strong.

I think he's obviously a beast, but there's no way he should only be averaging 20.1 ppg (18.3 for his career)..this has alot to do with the awful offense that Orlando runs, but also with the fact that he can't hit free throws to save his life (.492 this year). So yes he's a physical talent and specimen and such, but if he more fully applied himself he would and should dominate.

DH has averaged 13.0 rpg for his career... Bill Russell Averaged 22.5 (his scoring was only 15.1 ppg but look at the teams he played on), Wilt 22.9 (30.1ppg) but I guess those are the two best rebounding centers pretty much ever. DH compares positively to players like Shaq and Kareem....but I guess I'd expect DH to be one of the best of all time. So in my eyes 'waste of talent' is really relative.

#128 ifmanis5


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:49 AM

I like the fact that Rondo threw the ball at the ref. It showed that he cares.

These discussions of personality issues are not constructive. Rondo is what he is: a unique talent with flaws. Of course you trade him in the right deal, but you don't run him out of town either.

QFT.

And if the Celtics decide to keep him, please build a unit and a system that plays to those particular talents.

#129 mandro ramtinez

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:51 AM

DH has averaged 13.0 rpg for his career... Bill Russell Averaged 22.5 (his scoring was only 15.1 ppg but look at the teams he played on), Wilt 22.9 (30.1ppg) but I guess those are the two best rebounding centers pretty much ever. DH compares positively to players like Shaq and Kareem....but I guess I'd expect DH to be one of the best of all time. So in my eyes 'waste of talent' is really relative.


In the 2010-11 season, the average nba team attempted 81.2 field goals and made 37.2. In the 1966-67 season, the average team attempted 103.1 fgs and made 45.5. Russell and Chamberlain were all time great rebounders but their rebounding averages are much higher than Howard's largely because there were many more rebounding opportunities available with so many more shots attempted and missed in their era. Howard is a fantastic rebounder, no matter how you slice it.

#130 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:54 AM

1 - As I mentioned above I have to try to change my perception and have more patience with Rondo, but what bugs me is I dont feel like he is learning or maturing as quickly as I wish or think he should considering the players and coaches he has around him to help him learn. So at 22 he was immature, in 08/09 he started that players only meeting that was a disaster, then last year he had the few weeks of sulking when Perk was traded, then this year he has the 2 game suspension for flipping the ball at the ref. It just seems like every year there is something dumb that he does, and maybe he is like a Manny who I think Billy Beane summarized perfectly when he was talking to the Sox about the GM job back in the daya by saying something to the effect of 'there are may 10% of the games where he is just somewhere else and you cant rely on him, but the other 90% he plays at a high level'. So maybe thats Rondo and I have to accept the 10% of the bad because the 90% of the good are so good.
2 - Maybe I am wrong but I thought, reading through the lines, that Doc was suggesting that the snub got him so upset that Doc thought that might have been what caused part of his frustration to throw the ball at the ref.
3 - Rondo has been a gamer absolutely, that wasnt why I was comparing him to Kobe. My point was when Kobe was battling for control of the Lakers with Shaq he was high-maintenance to deal with, and I would argue that Rondo is a big high-maintenance as well. My point was that Kobe is much more talented than Rondo, so it was worthwhile to deal with his issues, whereas Rondo is talented but I dont think is nearly as talented as Kobe
4 - IMO Rondo and Howard have different problems, and again I have to work to change my perception of Rondo, but its the problems that would cause me hesitation if I was a GM to build around either of them. Howard because he is a knucklehead and I question his desire for the game, Rondo because I really wonder if he could be controlled if he was considered the 'leader' of the team, and again I will admit I had the same questions about Pierce and was ultimately wrong about that one too. What I really wish, and would help us solve this debate, is if we could possibly get a truthful answer out of Doc about what his opinion is of Rondo running a team as the leader? Does he think he could control Rondo in such a situation, and is Rondo coachable to be trusted in such a situation. Those are my concerns, and yup I had the same exact ones about Pierce, but after Docs first year here where they butted heads the entire time it eventually worked out, I wish I knew what his projection of such a situation would be with Rondo.


At the end of the day I don't think you and I disagree too much. I have had concerns with Rondo's game this year, but I don't know if it's a case of his game or just how awful the team has played in general. He seems to have fallen into taking a lot more jumpers, but I think that's a factor of defenses clogging the lane and the C's offense being very passive at the moment with a pretty awful lack of movement. It just doesn't seem like he has as many options of passes.

I guess the place where you and I don't quite see eye to eye (but we're not too far apart) is on his perceived 'attitude'... After all we are talking about one incident a year or so..if that, in a 82 game season? Manny had brain farts on a monthly/weekly basis between spurts of being one of the best hitters of all time. Rondo has 'issues' that sometimes seem to translate to on court problems, although i think one would have to ask whether or not it's a case of SSS and looking for examples to prove the theory (for example did Rondo go into a funk after Perk was traded or did the whole team? and is this Rondo's fault ...i'm not sure on either). Rondo is obviously effected by things that happen around him showing that he's actually human...the question is whether this is a fatal flaw I guess...I tend to like non automatons.

For the right trade I would consider trading him since there are more PGs out there than say Centers...but I don't think anyone coming back, if put under the same scrutiny, would fair much better (Deron Williams for instance)

#131 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:57 AM

In the 2010-11 season, the average nba team attempted 81.2 field goals and made 37.2. In the 1966-67 season, the average team attempted 103.1 fgs and made 45.5. Russell and Chamberlain were all time great rebounders but their rebounding averages are much higher than Howard's largely because there were many more rebounding opportunities available with so many more shots attempted and missed in their era. Howard is a fantastic rebounder, no matter how you slice it.


Fair enough..i may be too harsh on this. Again I'm looking at Howard with a view towards being the GOAT..which I think he is capable of with tweaks to his game and a slight change in attitude (I think he's too easily frustrated when faced with a physical defender and I have questions about his heart and competitiveness).

#132 smastroyin


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:21 PM

OK, let me make a few things clear.

One, I only brought up the pick and roll because people are talking about Rondo stepping into a D'Antoni offense and having that be the best thing ever. Even when not running the pick and roll the PG shooting is a very important outlet to every offense D'Antoni has run. You need a guy who can knock down that shot enough that the defense needs to account for him. It is certainly possible for Rondo to get there, but let's not pretend that Doc and Danny are fools for not trying more of that kind of offense. When they have tried, it has failed. They have done small lineups, they have done Rondo with the young bench guys, etc. Yes, sure, put Rondo with Rudy Gay or Kevin Durant or whoever. Hell put him with 29 year old Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. I mean no shit he would look pretty good on the Heat. Noone is saying is a bad player who doesn't have NBA skills. My point is that it is hard to build an NBA team specific to those skills. People seem to be getting on Danny because the team hasn't been crafted to make the best use of Rondo's skills and I'm just not sure how you could do that.

I have to admit that I also find it a little irritating that people bitch constantly about how much they hate the Iso, but then make every excuse in the world for why Rondo and a real halfcourt offense don't mesh. What do you want the Celtics to play then? These are the personnel they have.

#133 lars10

  • 1953 posts

Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

OK, let me make a few things clear.

One, I only brought up the pick and roll because people are talking about Rondo stepping into a D'Antoni offense and having that be the best thing ever. Even when not running the pick and roll the PG shooting is a very important outlet to every offense D'Antoni has run. You need a guy who can knock down that shot enough that the defense needs to account for him. It is certainly possible for Rondo to get there, but let's not pretend that Doc and Danny are fools for not trying more of that kind of offense. When they have tried, it has failed. They have done small lineups, they have done Rondo with the young bench guys, etc. Yes, sure, put Rondo with Rudy Gay or Kevin Durant or whoever. Hell put him with 29 year old Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. I mean no shit he would look pretty good on the Heat. Noone is saying is a bad player who doesn't have NBA skills. My point is that it is hard to build an NBA team specific to those skills. People seem to be getting on Danny because the team hasn't been crafted to make the best use of Rondo's skills and I'm just not sure how you could do that.

I have to admit that I also find it a little irritating that people bitch constantly about how much they hate the Iso, but then make every excuse in the world for why Rondo and a real halfcourt offense don't mesh. What do you want the Celtics to play then? These are the personnel they have.


1. I think you're projecting that people want a D'Antoni type offense. I've seen people say they want players for Rondo to run with but you're saying they'll completely change the offense to one of the most aggressive in either D'Antoni or Dean Smith...I've seen no one else make any comment similar to this. Right now Rondo is basically running 1 on 5. People are simply stating they want one or two players to get up court with him early in possessions...this season it has been worse than others. If anything I think people are looking for basically what every other team in the NBA has which is a few guys that get out consistently on the break...not a complete change in offense, but maybe I'm projecting. I know that personally I just want to not have to rely so much on set shots from 18-24' out.

2. It's Rondo's fault that the C's don't have any low post players right now? The reason the offense is so stagnant is because all of their players are out on the perimeter..part of this is a lack of a true Center and part of it is a strategy to try and get back on defense on younger, quicker teams. There's a reason they're the worst offensive rebounding team in the league. I think your second paragraph kind of contradicts itself. You're saying that people make excuses for Rondo not being able to run a half court set, but that the reason the Celts can't do much else than play isolation is because they don't have the personnel to run much else, part of this does fall on Rondo, but I think it's far more than just him... I think Rondo has actually improved his shooting a bit to where he can play in the half court..but they don't really have the personnel to play a decent half court set since they have no low post player and way too many outside shooters.

#134 Sprowl


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

Rondo is the Celtics' best post player and best rebounder. It's too bad that he's only 6'1.

#135 wutang112878


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:25 PM

At the end of the day I don't think you and I disagree too much. I have had concerns with Rondo's game this year, but I don't know if it's a case of his game or just how awful the team has played in general. He seems to have fallen into taking a lot more jumpers, but I think that's a factor of defenses clogging the lane and the C's offense being very passive at the moment with a pretty awful lack of movement. It just doesn't seem like he has as many options of passes.


Personally, I have thought since last year that as Rondo goes this offense goes. So if he is forcing the action, getting to the paint, initiating the offense and creating mismatches we look good offensively and it compensates for the Big3s loss of skill. When Rondo hasnt compensated for that all 4 of them look bad regardless of who is playing center. So while I wish he was taking less jumpers and getting to the paint more, I agree its a bit of a chicken and egg situation where he has to hit some jumpers so teams dont sag defensively and he can them more easily get to the paint to get others involved.... When he starts taking Antoine type idiotic jumpers I will really get worried, but most of the jumpers I have seen have been the 'they left him open' variety.

I guess the place where you and I don't quite see eye to eye (but we're not too far apart) is on his perceived 'attitude'... After all we are talking about one incident a year or so..if that, in a 82 game season? Manny had brain farts on a monthly/weekly basis between spurts of being one of the best hitters of all time. Rondo has 'issues' that sometimes seem to translate to on court problems, although i think one would have to ask whether or not it's a case of SSS and looking for examples to prove the theory (for example did Rondo go into a funk after Perk was traded or did the whole team? and is this Rondo's fault ...i'm not sure on either). Rondo is obviously effected by things that happen around him showing that he's actually human...the question is whether this is a fatal flaw I guess...I tend to like non automatons.


I dont think we disagree that much, here are my 3 worries about thinking about building around Rondo:

1 - We both agree he has some issues right, so I think one 64K question is: How bad would these issues be on a developing team? When Rondo isnt playing with 3 future HOFers anymore will these issues be worse if he is the 'leader' of a team and might he try to undermine a coaching staff and ultimately stunt the development of a young team? This is my concern. Pierce had these problems without a doubt, but at the same time he was being coached by the likes of Ricky Pitino who I think we can all understand would drive most NBA players crazy, and Jim 'do what you want on offense, just play defense' Obrien who didnt exactly reinforce all of the ideal leadership behaviors but to be fair got a lot out of those teams. Meanwhile, during Rondos early development years he has been coached by Doc and been surrounded by the Big3, and his head is still pretty big and continues to be.

2 - How long do you think it will take for the Celts to rebuild? Which is relevant for 2 reasons. One, Rondo's game is mainly based on his speed, I would imagine it might take 3-4 years to get back to being a championship caliber team at which point Rondo will be 30 and will have probably played his best basketball. So does it make sense to try to build around him, and if you do how long do you think he can play at a high enough level based on the style of his game? Until he is 32, 33, 34??? Two, Rondo is only under contract for 3 more seasons, we probably wont be contending by then and do we think we can get him to resign on a reasonable deal at that point, and/or would a new max deal for Rondo work under the rebuilding plans?

3 - Do we plan to attract FAs, and do FAs want to play with Rondo? Its somewhat interesting that Howard as an example, who I dont like, has openly talked about playing with Paul or Williams but has never said the same about Rondo when we will have max $ available after this year. To date, I dont know if I have heard a potential major FA say they want to play with Rondo. This is a very subjective thing, but its somewhat of a factor. In the same way that KG didnt want to come here when it was just Pierce, but once we made the Ray trade he changed his tune, so this stuff is somewhat important.

#136 nighthob

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:46 PM

I dont think anyone is saying that Howard isnt a talented player in todays center-less NBA. I think those of us that are calling him a waste of talent are saying so because he does not utilize the physical gifts that he has. If he played in the early 80s he would not be considered an elite center because he would be playing against much more rounded and skilled centers.


Given that the only center from that era, literally the only one, that compared to Howard was Hakeem, I imagine that Howard would have more success in a league where he didn't have to worry about flagrant fouls, flagrant 2 fouls, throwing his elbows, and bowling over the opposition. Kareem used to come down with migraine headaches before Houston regular season games for the entire decade because he didn't like dealing with Malone or Olajuwon. How the hell would he have dealt with Howard? 6'10" 270 lb guys back then were usually of the Dave Corzine variety with 3-1/2" verticals who were more RT than basketball player.

Christ, Mr. Chuckles himself (aka Charles Oakley) has a completely undeserved reputation for being a great defender when all he really was was a defensive tackle. He literally would be a waste in the modern NBA because he'd have his first flagrant a minute into the game and be ejected by the end of the first quarter. Howard could do all that and more 30 years ago. I loved Chief and all, but there's no way he was doing much to handle a guy that 40 lbs of muscle, plus speed & quickness on him

#137 smastroyin


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:52 PM

1. I think you're projecting that people want a D'Antoni type offense. I've seen people say they want players for Rondo to run with but you're saying they'll completely change the offense to one of the most aggressive in either D'Antoni or Dean Smith...I've seen no one else make any comment similar to this. Right now Rondo is basically running 1 on 5. People are simply stating they want one or two players to get up court with him early in possessions...this season it has been worse than others. If anything I think people are looking for basically what every other team in the NBA has which is a few guys that get out consistently on the break...not a complete change in offense, but maybe I'm projecting. I know that personally I just want to not have to rely so much on set shots from 18-24' out.

2. It's Rondo's fault that the C's don't have any low post players right now? The reason the offense is so stagnant is because all of their players are out on the perimeter..part of this is a lack of a true Center and part of it is a strategy to try and get back on defense on younger, quicker teams. There's a reason they're the worst offensive rebounding team in the league. I think your second paragraph kind of contradicts itself. You're saying that people make excuses for Rondo not being able to run a half court set, but that the reason the Celts can't do much else than play isolation is because they don't have the personnel to run much else, part of this does fall on Rondo, but I think it's far more than just him... I think Rondo has actually improved his shooting a bit to where he can play in the half court..but they don't really have the personnel to play a decent half court set since they have no low post player and way too many outside shooters.


When you are talking about yourself, you don't say "no one." There have been at least a half dozen posts talking about Rondo in a Suns style or now Knicks style offense in the back and forth with nighthob that is in three threads. I personally don't have so much other bordeom in my life that I'm going to go look up whether you are one of those guys, but there are guys.

My second paragraph comes down to the fact that I personally have an agenda with the Rondo uber alles crowd because they seem to think that the only problem with Rondo is everything else around Rondo. And if I were to do a Venn diagram (see my earlier post) the "people who complain about the Iso" crowd shares a lot with the "Rajon Rondo is the best thing ever" crowd. So I'm admitting my own flaw in conflating the two groups, although because of the overlap I do also think there are a lot of people who don't really understand why the Celtics (and every other team in the league, but I digress) run the Iso. But the reason they have to run an Iso so much, other than the very clear strategic reasons to do so (which I'm not going to break down again here) a reason the Celtics do it is that coming out of a timeout or into a set, Rondo's skills do not translate to the best offense. So if you don't like Iso, you shouldn't like Rondo. Or, if you really like Rondo but understand his weaknesses, it shouldn't surprise you when the Celtics run, for the nth time, a Pierce Iso instead of a "hand the ball to Rondo and see if something good happens," which is what people seem to really want to the point that they think they are smarter about basketball than Danny Ainge, Doc Rivers, Armond Hill, et al. It frustrates the living hell out of me and I probably take that bias to my opinion of Rondo.

#138 wutang112878


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:04 PM

Given that the only center from that era, literally the only one, that compared to Howard was Hakeem, I imagine that Howard would have more success in a league where he didn't have to worry about flagrant fouls, flagrant 2 fouls, throwing his elbows, and bowling over the opposition. Kareem used to come down with migraine headaches before Houston regular season games for the entire decade because he didn't like dealing with Malone or Olajuwon. How the hell would he have dealt with Howard? 6'10" 270 lb guys back then were usually of the Dave Corzine variety with 3-1/2" verticals who were more RT than basketball player.


I can think of some other centers that played in the 90s and I think were more well rounded than Howard. Alonzo Mourning in his prime was pretty good, David Robinson played decent D, has some low post moves and a decent jumper, Ewing always looked odd playing but was effective, Shaq was all power but a very efficient offensive player who in his prime would destroy Howard, and I think Divac and Smits might give Howard fits because of their ability to hit jumpers and draw him away from the basket which would make him a less effective defensive player. While we might disagree how much these guys could really bother Howard when playing head to head, I would argue that there are not 7 centers that bother him more in todays game than Olajuwan, Mourning, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Divac and Smits would in todays game, there just arent many well rounded good centers in todays game.

Christ, Mr. Chuckles himself (aka Charles Oakley) has a completely undeserved reputation for being a great defender when all he really was was a defensive tackle. He literally would be a waste in the modern NBA because he'd have his first flagrant a minute into the game and be ejected by the end of the first quarter. Howard could do all that and more 30 years ago. I loved Chief and all, but there's no way he was doing much to handle a guy that 40 lbs of muscle, plus speed & quickness on him


Now in terms of style of play, thats a horse of a different color absolutely. If we held the level of competition constant, Howard's game would have been much more effective in the 90s than it is today. And if he could accept not being an offensive focal point at all, if he was on Rileys NYK mugging defensive teams instead of Ewing with the way Howard plays and the rules they had at the time, they probably would have won 2 titles and maybe 3.

As for the Chief, I have to defend him, I think his ability to hit an outside jumper and his decent passing ability would again cause Howard some fits because it would draw him away from the basket and the Chief did have some decent ability to hit a guy cutting into the paint.

#139 nighthob

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:36 PM

You essentially dug up one center from the 90s with the size/athleticism to deal with Howard. In the era when thuggery reached its apex. Howard is actually constrained by the rules that limit just how much he can do with his physical advantages. If he were allowed to play the game the way that Oakley did Magic opponents would struggle to score 70/game. Dwight would do just fine in the 90s, thank you very much.

#140 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:01 PM

My second paragraph comes down to the fact that I personally have an agenda with the Rondo uber alles crowd because they seem to think that the only problem with Rondo is everything else around Rondo. And if I were to do a Venn diagram (see my earlier post) the "people who complain about the Iso" crowd shares a lot with the "Rajon Rondo is the best thing ever" crowd. So I'm admitting my own flaw in conflating the two groups, although because of the overlap I do also think there are a lot of people who don't really understand why the Celtics (and every other team in the league, but I digress) run the Iso. But the reason they have to run an Iso so much, other than the very clear strategic reasons to do so (which I'm not going to break down again here) a reason the Celtics do it is that coming out of a timeout or into a set, Rondo's skills do not translate to the best offense. So if you don't like Iso, you shouldn't like Rondo. Or, if you really like Rondo but understand his weaknesses, it shouldn't surprise you when the Celtics run, for the nth time, a Pierce Iso instead of a "hand the ball to Rondo and see if something good happens," which is what people seem to really want to the point that they think they are smarter about basketball than Danny Ainge, Doc Rivers, Armond Hill, et al. It frustrates the living hell out of me and I probably take that bias to my opinion of Rondo.


My basketball following goes in and out like all of sports, so I don't pretend to be a deep connoisseur of the game. But thinking over the criticism that whenever the Celtics play with Rondo on the floor is really like playing 4 or 5, I find myself thinking: Does every other team really plays 5 vs 5 on the floor at the end of games, because all of their players are dangerous if left unguarded? Does this stand true for every point guard? I don't think so. On the contrary, in most of the teams you know which player they would want to go with and if they don't, hey, they run a play with a second or third option; I doubt teams run plays where they have a fourth or a fifth option on the play.

So while I do have a problem with the ISOs, part of it is that they re not running a play involving passing and movement and part of it that I don't have as much confidence in Paul Pierce to create his shot at the end of games as I would have earlier in his career or with other players. And forget this idea that Rondo has to be part of a run and gun team. If Rondo has Kobe or Carmello or Wade as a teammate, would we really worry that their team is 4 on 5 at the end of games? I don't think so, because you know that these guys can create their own shot, even when double teamed.

Having said that another liability I find in Rondo's game which surprises me that it hasn't been discussed too much, is that I am scared that he will get injured with the way he plays.

#141 smastroyin


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:46 PM

This would be easier with a whiteboard.

Here are the strategic/tactical reasons, assuming an EOQ situation or an EOG situation that is obviously a one possession game.

- The absolute worst thing that can happen in an end of game situation is that you don't get a shot off. Increased ball movement means you get more chances to turn the ball over and more chance that you don't get off a shot due to whatever.

- The second worst thing that can happen is that the defense forces the ball rotation to the guy you don't want shooting. It's important to remember that the other team is trying at the end of game as well.

- The third worst thing that can happen is you get your shot off too soon. So even if you make it, the other team has a chance to win.

An Iso eliminates or gives control over a lot of these bad things. It also creates a couple of issues, I agree. Mostly you too often end up with Pierce taking a strongly contested shot, although that happens to other guys as well. Also, I think people misunderstand a little bit, an Iso isn't set up so it's just Pierce against his man with no other option. He usually has a chance to pass out of his Iso to Garnett at the elbow or Ray coming off a screen. The problem of course is that to set up the iso you restrict the movement of your other guys because you don't want them creating traffic in Pierce's lane to the basket.

I also don't think Pierce is as good as he once was, don't get me wrong, but he's still the best the C's have in this situation.

The problem is Rondo being the ball carrier on a last second play is multi-fold. First, because of the time on the clock issue, he doesn't have nearly as many options. The defense can anticipate the pass because he's fighting a running clock. They can sag to keep him from penetrating at the same time cutting off the passing lanes to Allen who would probably be the first option to actually take the shot. Then your next option is probably Pierce but now he has to receive the ball and unless it's the last second he's going to go up against his man anyway. So then it's KG, I guess, who might find himself open after setting a screen but who hasn't really been knocking down contested shots himself and even when he still had the pretty little fade in the low post and was money from the elbow, he always seemed to look pass first anyway.

To your other point, I don't disagree that if Rondo were playing on a team with a high volume, high impact 1A offensive talent, that people would care as much. Rondo doesn't need to be run out of town or anything, if you can get some of that talent here to play with him. But if you can't, I just don't think he's a guy you can rebuild around, unless you get really lucky.

#142 Marbleheader


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:42 PM

Excellent post. Rondo cannot be a franchise player until he becomes a triple threat (dribble, pass, shoot at an elite level). I do think that diversity in end of game situations is a huge plus though. I ran point from beginners to college, and my job at the end of games was to exploit the defense's weakness. Identify the most adventageous matchup and create a high percentage opportunity there as option #1. Sometimes, that won't be Pierce. Don't risk losing possession to force it if it doesn't evolve, and Pierce will always be a good safety valve if things don't develop. As Pierce's game declines, they will need to rely more on the supporting cast to open things up. Rondo is a playmaker, and I think he can be an asset by playing to his strengths in those situations.

#143 Sprowl


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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:06 PM

Excellent post. Rondo cannot be a franchise player until he becomes a triple threat (dribble, pass, shoot at an elite level). I do think that diversity in end of game situations is a huge plus though. I ran point from beginners to college, and my job at the end of games was to exploit the defense's weakness. Identify the most advantageous matchup and create a high percentage opportunity there as option #1. Sometimes, that won't be Pierce. Don't risk losing possession to force it if it doesn't evolve, and Pierce will always be a good safety valve if things don't develop. As Pierce's game declines, they will need to rely more on the supporting cast to open things up. Rondo is a playmaker, and I think he can be an asset by playing to his strengths in those situations.


If Rondo can take over the game at the end, he will indeed take a jump to the elite level. With the Pierce isolation, Rondo rarely gets the chance to make the judgment about who has the most advantageous matchup. Rivers used to come up with some creative alternatives -- eg, Rondo getting a lob pass at the hoop after running his man through a Perkins screen, but I think the predictability of Pierce handling the ball at the top of the key while Allen tries to get open has finally worked to the disadvantage of the team. Everybody knows what's coming, and the Celtics rarely get the advantage of surprise anymore.

This is how things wind down, I guess. :unsure:

Rondo would be more valuable, even if he never reaches elite status, if he could make himself a secondary threat by developing a three-point set shot like Jason Kidd's. Right now his entire game is off the dribble, but he could get a more consistent release by learning how to catch and shoot at the end of the play.

#144 Brickowski

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:11 AM

Peter Vecsey reports that he "keeps hearing" that a deal of Rondo/O'Neal for Gasol is being discussed. Not sure I like it, but it probably makes the Celtics a little better in the short run.

#145 ifmanis5


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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:30 AM

Peter Vecsey reports that he "keeps hearing" that a deal of Rondo/O'Neal for Gasol is being discussed. Not sure I like it, but it probably makes the Celtics a little better in the short run.

I have NO intention of rooting for Pau. I'd rather they trade for Lackey.

#146 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

Who's going to play point guard? Perhaps with Pau and an adequate point we have a shot for this year?

#147 nighthob

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:57 PM

Who's going to play point guard? Perhaps with Pau and an adequate point we have a shot for this year?


Maybe O'Neal/Nelson could be worked into a three way deal with LA shipping Howard to the Lakers?

#148 BigSoxFan


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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:12 PM

I guess it all just depends on what direction Ainge wants to take the team. If he's intent on rebuilding now, then a Rondo for Gasol trade doesn't make any sense. If he's intent on trying to squeeze out every last bit of juice from the Big 3, then adding a 31 year-old Gasol wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Of course, it would leave a massive void at PG so I don't think Ainge would go this route unless he had a suitable option at PG lined up.

#149 Brickowski

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:31 PM

IMHO the "suitable option" this year is Bradley backed up by Dooling and Moore. Next year it will be Austin Rivers backed up by Bradley (most likely).
Gasol's deal is the same length as Pierce's. So we'll get three more years of good to mediocre teams, followed by serious rebuilding when Pierce's contract is up. I'm not in favor of postphoning the inevitable, but maybe Wyc Grousbeck is.

#150 Three10toLeft

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

Pau is a complimentary piece. He will never be able to lead us anywhere but mediocrity with our current supporting cast.

I recognize that he's one of, if not THE, best big in the league. But that doesn't keep me from feeling like an addition of Pau Gasol does anything but bog us down with a huge contract going forward.

And why would the Lakers make this deal?

Money comes off the books I guess so they can make a run at Howard in the offseason if they are unable to land him before the deadline. But I don't see Kobe putting up with Rondo's lack of a jumper for very long, especially when they are playing 4 on 5 or if Artest is on the floor, 3 on 5 down the stretch of close games.

Why not just see what we can do in free agency, if we can sign Howard, great.

If not, trade Rondo in the offseason. Even if you can't get a guy like Pau for him, get some key guys that will aid in the rebuilding effort. It's not like this an either A or either B, type situation. We have some options. I don't see any Celtics fans out there being disappointed if we just stand pat at the deadline. It's not like we are going to be able to acquire any guys that would enable us to beat Chicago or Miami. Punt on the season.

Edited by Three10toLeft, 26 February 2012 - 04:41 PM.