Not that it changes the overall point about Rondo's clashes with Doc and other coaches, but I'm pretty sure that photo is from this game:
February 10th at Toronto, and he's talking to JuJuan Johnson. Doc commented after that game that he was pissed because one guy on the floor didn't know what play was called: "Two guys knew the play, one guy didn’t -- and just one guy didn’t. And everybody, it drains energy. Not being a professional drains energy. Being a professional is knowing every set you run, knowing your rotations, because it’s draining for the pros who know, who do the work."
Johnson admitted later that Doc was talking about him:
Thanks for pointing this out, I didnt see the Johnson quote, and based on Docs comments, the picture and Forsbergs caption I had assumed he was talking about Rondo.
Actually, that meeting occurred the 2008-09 season, and it occurred when the Celtics were in a deep slump after Garnett went down for what turned out to be a season-ending knee injury. Rondo was also 22 at the time.
The same was indeed said about Pierce. And Pierce did have his run-ins with Garnett early in the 2007-08 season, and with Doc during the several seasons prior.
The Pierce comparison makes a lot of sense, and when I think back about it I think I was ready to trade Pierce at the time as well. I would still argue that issues that Pierce had seem a little less significant because he wasnt a young guy playing with 3 HOFers, and he didnt have issues with coaches at almost every level of basketball that he played. But I will admit, yeah I thought Pierce had some issues and wasnt sure if we could ever build a team that would win a title around him. So I guess I need to have some more patience with Rondo. I think what really rubbed me the wrong way was, and I cant remember the exact game, but there was some playoff game that I went to and as I was going into the game [maybe 30 minutes before tipoff] Rondo came in at the same exact time. I was furious because there is no excuse for that, and I really have never looked at him the same way since then, so I have to work on re-evaluating my perception of him.
The argument is between two viewpoints:
1. Trade Rondo in order to get pieces and rebuild through the draft.
2. Keep Rondo and wait for some salaries to be shed in order to rebuild through free agency.
I guess both ways can work, though I think at the end of the day, there's so much uncertainty with any scenario that it boils down to luck.
The real division might be however between those who like Rondo's game and those who don't. I happen to like the way Rondo plays. Mostly because he hustles, he runs, he's fearless, he looks for the open man. So, all things being equal, I would rather have that in my team.
I personally like Rondos game on a talented team, but on a young team that is developing and his teammates are still learning to space the floor I think his numbers are going to look much worse, unless the Celts change to a full up-tempo no defense style like the Knicks. Which is why I would vote for 1, trade him either before the deadline or before he is playing with an untalented team because otherwise his value is going to plummet.
The Big Three + Rondo have broken down as a team, both physically and competitively, so there's not much longer for the Celtics in this incarnation. Whether Rondo has the mental fortitude to lead a rebuilding (ie, losing) team is a legitimate question, and I have to think that an experienced pass-first, distributor has more value to a contender than a rebuilder,
Thanks Sprowl, you have an uncanny ability to communicate some of my thoughts in a much more concise and intelligent manner than I can.
1. I agree with you that Rondo was immature 4 years ago..we're arguing about now. Most 22 year olds are immature.
2. The all star snub didn't have a negative effect on the court..you're wrong...he's played better.
3. Have you watched the Celtics the past few years? Rondo has played hurt >period< Only reason Kobe has played through more injuries is because he's older and he talks about them a lot more.
4. Comparing Rondo to Dwight Howard is like comparing apples to donkeys. Dwight Howard is a semi waste of talent and a body where if he had an ounce of heart would/should score 40 a game and dominate the NBA. Instead he completely wastes his physical superiority and doesn't learn post moves, shoots fade-aways far more than he should and generally keeps his head in his buttox. He also clearly tries to hurt players on the defensive end and make it look like he didn't know what he was doing when he brings his arms down through the head/body of the player he is so much more physically superior to. Rondo on the other hand is a small PG that, although flawed, is competitive to a fault, scores and rebounds in the paint with the best of them in a much smaller frame. How many points and rebounds do you think Rondo would get if he had Dwight Howard's body?
1 - As I mentioned above I have to try to change my perception and have more patience with Rondo, but what bugs me is I dont feel like he is learning or maturing as quickly as I wish or think he should considering the players and coaches he has around him to help him learn. So at 22 he was immature, in 08/09 he started that players only meeting that was a disaster, then last year he had the few weeks of sulking when Perk was traded, then this year he has the 2 game suspension for flipping the ball at the ref. It just seems like every year there is something dumb that he does, and maybe he is like a Manny who I think Billy Beane summarized perfectly when he was talking to the Sox about the GM job back in the daya by saying something to the effect of 'there are may 10% of the games where he is just somewhere else and you cant rely on him, but the other 90% he plays at a high level'. So maybe thats Rondo and I have to accept the 10% of the bad because the 90% of the good are so good.
2 - Maybe I am wrong but I thought, reading through the lines, that Doc was suggesting that the snub got him so upset that Doc thought that might have been what caused part of his frustration to throw the ball at the ref.
3 - Rondo has been a gamer absolutely, that wasnt why I was comparing him to Kobe. My point was when Kobe was battling for control of the Lakers with Shaq he was high-maintenance to deal with, and I would argue that Rondo is a big high-maintenance as well. My point was that Kobe is much more talented than Rondo, so it was worthwhile to deal with his issues, whereas Rondo is talented but I dont think is nearly as talented as Kobe
4 - IMO Rondo and Howard have different problems, and again I have to work to change my perception of Rondo, but its the problems that would cause me hesitation if I was a GM to build around either of them. Howard because he is a knucklehead and I question his desire for the game, Rondo because I really wonder if he could be controlled if he was considered the 'leader' of the team, and again I will admit I had the same questions about Pierce and was ultimately wrong about that one too. What I really wish, and would help us solve this debate, is if we could possibly get a truthful answer out of Doc about what his opinion is of Rondo running a team as the leader? Does he think he could control Rondo in such a situation, and is Rondo coachable to be trusted in such a situation. Those are my concerns, and yup I had the same exact ones about Pierce, but after Docs first year here where they butted heads the entire time it eventually worked out, I wish I knew what his projection of such a situation would be with Rondo.