607 replies to this topic

[CaptainLaddie]

I think the pitch Ainge will make is that if Paul comes to Boston, the next step will be Dwight Howard.


Besides...

(1) I do not see the Clips as having the assets to get a deal done with NO. They've got Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan, but since Jordan is a restricted FA they would have to resign him first to put him into the deal., yes? And if you take asway those two players, the Clips would have Paul, Griffin, a fading Chris Kaman and a bunch of guys like Ryan Gomes. That's not a contending team. And would you want to play for Donald Sterling?

(2) You can speculate all you want about what Paul will do if he makes it to free agency, but it won't happen. NO is not going to let him go for free, certainly not if the NBA, which is now running the Hornets, wants to find a willing buyer for the franchise.

LOL, if Paul does get traded to the Clips, the C's will almost certainly have two first round picks in 2012.

Watching you fall all over yourself to suddenly say nice things about Howard if he becomes a Celtic would be worth the price of admission.

[Brickowski]

Sure it's unlikely, but that's what Ainge will try to sell. And if the Celtics do get Paul, doesn't that make Boston a more attractive destination for Howard?

[moondog80]

Legler on ESPN claims Paul wouldn't sign an extension with the C's, Broussard claims they wouldn't want Rondo. Other than that, sounds like its close.

The talk is that it would be a 3 way deal, with Rondo going perhaps to Indiana and young players to the Hornets. At that point, you make the deal and hope you can do something to make CP3 change his mind.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Does the word "unlikely" not mean what I think it means?

Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky or single you out. I know you mentioned that it was unlikely, it's just frustrating that between this thread and the C's roster thread, 90% of the discussion has focused on the extremely unlikely event that Dwight Howard reaches free agency and signs with the Celtics.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Sure it's unlikely, but that's what Ainge will try to sell. And if the Celtics do get Paul, doesn't that make Boston a more attractive destination for Howard?

Of course. Unfortunately the timing isn't as perfect as it was in the summer of '07, but if DH decides that Chris Paul is the guy he wants to play with, there's little reason it couldn't happen.

Edited by Jed Zeppelin, 30 November 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[TheoShmeo]

All this talk and Rondo's apparently fragile psyche ("boo hoo, Perk is gone; boo hoo, Obama doesn't like me") puts a lot of pressure on Ainge to make a deal now.

Too much Red Sox, not enough Patriots, to the PR around these discussions.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky or single you out. I know you mentioned that it was unlikely, it's just frustrating that between this thread and the C's roster thread, 90% of the discussion has focused on the extremely unlikely event that Dwight Howard reaches free agency and signs with the Celtics.

That discussion is bound to happen when the alternative we have to look forward to is fading back into mediocrity on the legs of three old guys, a guard who can't shoot and Jeff Green! Plus, we're spoiled after watching Ainge take this franchise at its very lowest point (horrendous record, lottery losers, etc etc) and somehow turn it into gold. We want to watch him do it again.

[The Social Chair]

The new CBA only lets you sign sign a one year extension with a sign and trade. That makes paul signing the extension before the trade less important.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

For whatever it's worth, the Nets are preparing an offer for Howard right now centered around Brook Lopez. I think the Magic can beat it, so I doubt it gets done. But still worth mentioning that the Howard trade sweepstakes is officially underway.

[Jed Zeppelin]

All this talk and Rondo's apparently fragile psyche ("boo hoo, Perk is gone; boo hoo, Obama doesn't like me") puts a lot of pressure on Ainge to make a deal now.

Too much Red Sox, not enough Patriots, to the PR around these discussions.

There's always been a murky relationship between the Celtics and Rondo. All kinds of doublespeak, trade rumors practically every year it seems, Rondo's misguided meeting attempt. A lot of this has played out through the media so we don't know much of anything for sure, but things have always been kind of weird with him. All this leakage will absolutely suck if Rondo doesn't get traded.

[BigSoxFan]

Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky or single you out. I know you mentioned that it was unlikely, it's just frustrating that between this thread and the C's roster thread, 90% of the discussion has focused on the extremely unlikely event that Dwight Howard reaches free agency and signs with the Celtics.

Coming from a Knicks fan...this is fresh. Getting Paul and Howard is highly unlikely but it's not out of the realm of possibility. I think the summer of 2007 proved that.

[NHSoxFever]

Briefly mentioned by Rudy Pemberton, but figured you guys may want full context. Courtesy of ESPN Insider Rumor Central:

[Jeff Van GULLY]

I don't think that report deters Ainge at all. If Ainge can actually complete the deal, we'll see what Paul says then. If I recall, Garnett said the same thing originally.


I've become more pessimistic about any CP3-Rondo deal now that it's been reported that Dell Demps isn't interested in Rondo. Why would a team give up the players for Rondo when they could use their own pieces to get CP3 themselves?

[Brickowski]

Watching you fall all over yourself to suddenly say nice things about Howard if he becomes a Celtic would be worth the price of admission.

Howard is what he is: a superb athlete with limited basketball skills. He blocks shots and rebounds, so you can build a championship caliber defense around him. For offense you have to look elsewhere, although he'll get plenty of dunks if he's willing to run the floor.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I don't think that report deters Ainge at all. If Ainge can actually complete the deal, we'll see what Paul says then. If I recall, Garnett said the same thing originally.

KG said it before they acquired Ray, which is basically the same position they're in now, except in '07 they had the pieces to get Ray with plenty left over to get KG after he changed his mind. They don't have that ability this time around. What they can offer is cap space and a promise.

[gammoseditor]

Hell we're probably going to have no shot at a title in 2 years anyway. I'd probably still deal Rondo and Glen Davis in a sign and trade for Paul without the extension. Make a run this year with Paul and the big three then blow it up.

[nighthob]

I don't think that report deters Ainge at all. If Ainge can actually complete the deal, we'll see what Paul says then. If I recall, Garnett said the same thing originally.


I've become more pessimistic about any CP3-Rondo deal now that it's been reported that Dell Demps isn't interested in Rondo. Why would a team give up the players for Rondo when they could use their own pieces to get CP3 themselves?

I don't think it's likely that Paul signs an extension anywhere because he'd leave $20 million or so on the table if he did. I think that no matter where he's traded he's going to wait until summer of '13 or '14.

[SemperFidelisSox]

It's also possible that this phone conversation took place at some point in the last 48 hours:

Paul: "Ya, Boston is trying to get me...Would you go there if I was there?"

Howard: "Fuck no. Sorry, bro."

[The Social Chair]

It doesn't matter to me if Paul signs the extension or not. WIth the extenstion: Paul is a contracted Celtic for 24 months. Without the extension: Paul is a Celtic for 12 months and can be resigned for more money in Boston than he would make in NY.

The extension stuff mattered more under the old CBA.

[Tizzolator]

I don't think that report deters Ainge at all. If Ainge can actually complete the deal, we'll see what Paul says then. If I recall, Garnett said the same thing originally.

Totally agree with this. I bet this is coming from the Knicks, anyway.

[Brickowski]

As for the Nets offer, who would want Brook Lopez? The guy took several steps backward last year after his good rookie season, and he becomes a restricted free agent at the end of the year, so if he plays well you may have to match an inflated offer sheet to keep him. The Nets' offer is a joke.

If I'm Otis Smith, I say "Sure, you can have Howard, but you are also taking Arenas as part of the deal-- and I want Deron Williams, not Lopez." I think that would work under the new salary matching rules if the Nets threw Outlaw into the deal as cap fodder, since the Nets are a non-taxpaying team.

Edited by Brickowski, 30 November 2011 - 03:05 PM.

[TOleary25]

I am with agreement with the group of folks who believe that the C's should try and trade for Paul even without an extension. Paul is just a better all around player than Rondo and gives the C's a greater chance of winning today. Who knows, if they go for a deep playoff run or perhaps win it all he could be wooed into liking Boston.

Realistically, what future does Boston have two years from now with Rondo as the star? Outside of Howard signing with the C's (which I highly doubt with just Rondo here) they will most likely overpay for a second tier star. They probably figure to fall somewhere in the middle of the pack with Rondo as the key player which is not where you want to be in the NBA. I'd rather go all out this year with the potential of losing Paul and having to rebuild than be mediocre for the next 3 or 4 years after 2012.

Edited by TOleary25, 30 November 2011 - 03:21 PM.

[RedOctober3829]

I agree with getting Paul without him committing to a long-term deal. If you are Paul and you want to be a FA after the season, why wouldn't you want to go to a place where you have a shot at a ring instead of playing out the year in New Orleans?

[phragle]

I don't see the downside to this, extension or not. Why would we not do this?

[SoxScout]

I don't see the downside to this, extension or not. Why would we not do this?

Because you would still have a top PG locked up for less than max money for three years after this one?

[Statman]

I agree with getting Paul without him committing to a long-term deal. If you are Paul and you want to be a FA after the season, why wouldn't you want to go to a place where you have a shot at a ring instead of playing out the year in New Orleans?

Not only that, but if Paul were to walk away from the Celtics as a FA, it appears that he would be leaving a ton of money on the table by signing with another team. If I am reading this article right (and assuming that a trade goes down):

1. The Celtics would be the only team able to offer Paul a 5 year max deal at $100M because the Celtics have his Bird rights;
2. Any other team in the NBA would only be able to offer him a 4 year, $74M deal;
3. Paul keeps clamoring about joining the Knicks and forming the second "Big Three," but even assuming that the Knicks have just Amare and Carmelo on the roster, they'd only have $13.5M of cap space in 2012-13 which results in a 4 year, $58M deal under the new rules.

I simply can't imagine Paul declining $26 million dollars to sign with another team, let alone $42 million dollars to sign with the Knicks.

Link to article

[phragle]

Because you would still have a top PG locked up for less than max money for three years after this one?

Wait, is Rondo the top PG?

[SoxScout]

Wait, is Rondo the top PG?

A top PG, I'd say a lot of people are blinded by the Paul blinders at this moment in time.

[phragle]

A top PG, I'd say a lot of people are blinded by the Paul blinders at this moment in time.

Not when he has nobody to pass to. Which would be the two seasons after this one.

[SoxScout]

Not when he has nobody to pass to. Which would be the two seasons after this one.

Ok, well, going by that, the Celtics won't have anyone after this year if we get Paul, so we would fold the franchise.

[phragle]

Point is you can't build around Rondo because he has to be surrounded by scorers.

[bougrj1]

I agree with the "get it done withuot an extension crowd" for two reasons:

1. It gives us the best chance to win this year
2. If Paul ends up on the Knicks anyway - we have multiple years ahead of us competing with the Knicks, Heat, and Bulls, all of which are much better than a Rondo led Celtics team. Rondo and an aging Pierce would give us some low seeded playoff appearences and not much more.

The only way you're going to compete with the "let's play with our friends" teams in the east is by having a super-duper-star or two. Not having anyone losing the big three and Rondo would at least give us the shot to hit gold in the lottery with a year or two of a really crappy team. I'd be willing to live through that for a championship this year.

[nighthob]

A top PG, I'd say a lot of people are blinded by the Paul blinders at this moment in time.

I think it's more realism. Superstars win in the NBA. Rondo isn't a superstar. This deep into his career it's fairly plain that he'll never improve his shooting to the merely atrocious level, so it's irrelevant where he falls on the PG scale. So the question is, do you want to end the big three era with a bang or a whimper?

[radsoxfan]

I think it's more realism. Superstars win in the NBA. Rondo isn't a superstar. This deep into his career it's fairly plain that he'll never improve his shooting to the merely atrocious level, so it's irrelevant where he falls on the PG scale.

Rondo has been a very valuable player while being a terrible shooter. This has been a fact so far thoughout his career, and most likely will continue to be a fact for the near future. His shooting limits his potential, and prevents him from being a top 5 player in the league (i.e Chris Paul).

But this binary world of "superstar = good" and "non-superstar = bad" is a pretty silly way to think. Just because he isn't a superstar doesn't make it "irrelevant where he falls on a PG scale".

Of course it matters how good Rondo is, even if he will never be a superstar. The best teams win championships. The best teams often have superstars, but they also have really good players too. If you can trade Rondo for Paul, or another top 10 player in the league, then I'm on board. But I can certainly live without some Pu-Pu Platter constructed around Darren Collison and Tyler Hansbrough.

Fortunately Danny has proven himself to be rational in the past, so I would like to think he will be in this case as well. I just hope if a deal doesn't get done, Rondo shrugs off the trade talk. He has certainly been jerked around a lot in the past year or two.

Edited by radsoxfan, 30 November 2011 - 07:54 PM.

[PedroKsBambino]

A top PG, I'd say a lot of people are blinded by the Paul blinders at this moment in time.

I think it is more that people have a view that this franchise's chances of being a contender drop into the single-digits for the foreseeable future after 2012. Thus, they are willing to pay a significant price in years 2013-16 in order to materially increase the chance of winning in 2012 while this core is intact and somewhat healthy.

To me, even with Paul this team is unlikely to be able to win in 2012...lack of depth, quality size, and age. And even saying that, I'd still do the deal because the chances of building a contender around Rondo and decline-phase Pierce is much, much smaller.

The NBA is a league where you want to be really good and contending for a title or really bad and getting a shot at impact draftees...not in between. In MLB and the NFL, I think it is a bit different---it is worth trying to be 'good' and see if you can get a little bit better. I just don't think a study of the last 20 years suggests that plan is viable in the NBA and, unfortunately, that in-between zone is a pretty likely scenario for the 2013-15 Celts. Thus, I think many people believe we aren't actually worse off in 2013 with no Rondo and no Paul than we are with just Rondo....because they'd rather be awful and have cap room and draft chances than be a 35-50 win team.

Edited by PedroKsBambino, 30 November 2011 - 08:09 PM.

[ivanvamp]

Not only that, but if Paul were to walk away from the Celtics as a FA, it appears that he would be leaving a ton of money on the table by signing with another team. If I am reading this article right (and assuming that a trade goes down):

1. The Celtics would be the only team able to offer Paul a 5 year max deal at $100M because the Celtics have his Bird rights;
2. Any other team in the NBA would only be able to offer him a 4 year, $74M deal;
3. Paul keeps clamoring about joining the Knicks and forming the second "Big Three," but even assuming that the Knicks have just Amare and Carmelo on the roster, they'd only have $13.5M of cap space in 2012-13 which results in a 4 year, $58M deal under the new rules.

I simply can't imagine Paul declining $26 million dollars to sign with another team, let alone $42 million dollars to sign with the Knicks.

Link to article

Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times yes. The C's should do this deal even without the extension, knowing that (a) they're getting a much better player for this year, and (b) as you point out, they have a significant financial advantage with Paul as he heads into free agency. Does that guarantee he'll remain here? Of course not. But it gives them a much better chance. And if the stars all go, they'll have oodles of money to sign other guys. Hey, they made their great run during this window, and that's worth a lot.

And, of course, if he stays, then they have Paul, Pierce, and still a ton of cash available to grab one more star. In other words, even without the extension, this is the deal they should make.

[The Social Chair]

Rondo has been a very valuable player while being a terrible shooter. This has been a fact so far thoughout his career, and most likely will continue to be a fact for the near future. His shooting limits his potential, and prevents him from being a top 5 player in the league (i.e Chris Paul).

But this binary world of "superstar = good" and "non-superstar = bad" is a pretty silly way to think. Just because he isn't a superstar doesn't make it "irrelevant where he falls on a PG scale".

PG is the least valuable position on the court (unless your PG is a top player like Rose and Paul). In the last 20 years the only teams that have won with elite PGs were the 04 Pistons, 05 Spurs, and 11 Mavs. That's three teams in the last 20 years. Chrid Paul and Derrick Rose transcend their position because they are top 10 players. Rondo is not at that level.

You need a top 10 player to win a title. If you don't have one than every player on your team is no more than an asset to land one.

Edited by The Social Chair, 30 November 2011 - 08:11 PM.

[Sprowl]

Not only that, but if Paul were to walk away from the Celtics as a FA, it appears that he would be leaving a ton of money on the table by signing with another team. If I am reading this article right (and assuming that a trade goes down):

1. The Celtics would be the only team able to offer Paul a 5 year max deal at $100M because the Celtics have his Bird rights;
2. Any other team in the NBA would only be able to offer him a 4 year, $74M deal;
3. Paul keeps clamoring about joining the Knicks and forming the second "Big Three," but even assuming that the Knicks have just Amare and Carmelo on the roster, they'd only have $13.5M of cap space in 2012-13 which results in a 4 year, $58M deal under the new rules.

I simply can't imagine Paul declining $26 million dollars to sign with another team, let alone $42 million dollars to sign with the Knicks.

Link to article

That would give the Celtics a considerable amount of leverage in constructing a sign-and-trade deal that allows another NBA team to pay Paul top dollar after 2012. If Paul turns into a one-year rental in the context of Ainge amassing assets to rebuild from the ground up in 2013, that is also an acceptable tradeoff for a GFIN 2012. In that case, Pierce will be off at the 2013 trading deadline for his Ray Bourque championship run. Trader Danny can start all over with a bang.

[redsahx]

I'm also in the "get Paul anyways" camp. Yes there is a risk you lose him after 1 year, but this is also the only chance I see of them possibly maintaining elite status in the near future. They not only will be one of the top contenders this year, but if he does eventually resign (and as others pointed out the Celts have an advantage money wise there) you then have the likely possibility another big name would join him with the cap space the Celtics will soon have, and suddenly they are set up for a long time. It's no guarantee obviously, but it's at least a possibility. Without the trade I have a hard time seeing where they become an elite contender again. I like Rondo, but realistically this team is headed towards a few years of being just a second tier playoff team as it stands.

[radsoxfan]

PG is the least valuable position on the court (unless your PG is a top player like Rose and Paul). In the last 20 years the only teams that have won with elite PGs were the 04 Pistons, 05 Spurs, and 11 Mavs. That's three teams in the last 20 years. Chrid Paul and Derrick Rose transcend their position because they are top 10 players. Rondo is not at that level.

You need a top 10 player to win a title. If you don't have one than every player on your team is no more than an asset to land one.

I disagree strongly with this entire line of thought (especially that the 11 Mavs had an elite PG.....I'm actually not sure if you were referring to Barea, Terry or Kidd)

The teams with the best players that compliment each other the best win in the NBA. This often takes the form of a couple superstars surrounded by role players. Sometimes it doesn't.

But a PG does not inherently lack value because of his position. Lets not get back into this whole Derek Fisher is just as good as Rondo because neither are superstars and PGs don't really matter anyway. I agree a team with Rondo as its best player isn't going to win the title. But that's not the argument some seem to be making here.

I also am perfectly fine with trading Rondo for a top 10 guy. But I still maintain Rondo has a ton of on court value that can help a team win the title. His value isn't purely as trade bait.

Edited by radsoxfan, 30 November 2011 - 10:11 PM.

[86spike]

As for the Nets offer, who would want Brook Lopez? The guy took several steps backward last year after his good rookie season, and he becomes a restricted free agent at the end of the year, so if he plays well you may have to match an inflated offer sheet to keep him. The Nets' offer is a joke.

If I'm Otis Smith, I say "Sure, you can have Howard, but you are also taking Arenas as part of the deal-- and I want Deron Williams, not Lopez." I think that would work under the new salary matching rules if the Nets threw Outlaw into the deal as cap fodder, since the Nets are a non-taxpaying team.

First off, Lopez has played three years and the only step he took backwards last year was in rebounding. That's certainly a concern, but Kris Kardashian was sucking up every board near him in a contract-year fueled frenzy, so it can partly be explained by that.

Second off, the reported Nets offer (which Billy King denies making, of course) is Brook Lopez, 2 first round picks, and a youngster or two (possibly Damion James) in return for Dwight Howard and Hedo Turkolu's inflated deal. The Nets have cap space to take back some heavy weight.

It's not a joke offer if Orlando wants to commit to a rebuild right now (which we don't know is the case).

[Brickowski]

If that's the offer, I can't imagine the Magic accepting it. They can and will do better.

[nighthob]

But this binary world of "superstar = good" and "non-superstar = bad" is a pretty silly way to think. Just because he isn't a superstar doesn't make it "irrelevant where he falls on a PG scale".

I'm not sure where this "binary world" comes from, nor where it's going to, nor its relationship to the real world. But I'm fairly certain that it's irrelevant. Because the point is you need a top ten player if you hope to compete for a title. Boston does not have one. And if they don't make any moves, as of this time next year they very likely have no way of landing one. Which is the actual point.

The only team in recent history to win a title without a top 10 player was the 2004 Pistons. The only other one I can think of off the top of my head is the post-merger Supersonics. I mean literally, I can't think of another in the post-merger era. That's what? two out 34 or 35? Not really good odds for Boston. Especially given that as of next year they'll be losing the "collection of all stars" factor as Allen & Garnett head elsewhere for another shot at a ring.

Edited by nighthob, 30 November 2011 - 11:36 PM.

[KevinRiley28]

Allen and Garnett have been pretty vocal about their desire to retire in Boston

Of course, that'll depend on the pay cut they'll be willing to take

[Super Nomario]

I also am perfectly fine with trading Rondo for a top 10 guy. But I still maintain Rondo has a ton of on court value that can help a team win the title. His value isn't purely as trade bait.

I think this is fundamentally the problem the Celtics have: Rondo is a) by far their player with the most trade value and b) probably underrated around the league and not likely to fetch his value in trade.

[kazuneko]

Its not that the Cs don't have value - Rondo and Garnett's giant expiring contract (in exchange for another team's garbage) is actually a good amount of value- but that if they trade those assets for any of the big name free-agents-to-be they won't have enough talent left to be an attractive team to sign with.
Best case scenario for the Cs is both Howard and Paul end up free agents. The Cs are currently set to be way under the cap (only Pierce, Rondo, Avery and Johnson are signed past this year) next offseason and could actually potentially pull off a Heat-like coup by signing the two biggest FA superstars to max or near max deals.
Problem is neither Howard or Paul will make it to free agency - they will be traded and extended long before next offseason.

Edited by kazuneko, 01 December 2011 - 01:55 AM.

[radsoxfan]

I'm not sure where this "binary world" comes from, nor where it's going to, nor its relationship to the real world. But I'm fairly certain that it's irrelevant. Because the point is you need a top ten player if you hope to compete for a title. Boston does not have one. And if they don't make any moves, as of this time next year they very likely have no way of landing one. Which is the actual point.

It comes from you (and others) acting like top 10 players are the only important part of building a title team. They are great, and if you can trade Rondo for a better player, you do it. We obviously agree on this.

But the rest of the team is vitally important too. So we shouldn't dismiss Rondo (or anyone elses value) just because they don't fit into the "top 10" basket.

Edited by radsoxfan, 01 December 2011 - 07:48 AM.

[86spike]

If that's the offer, I can't imagine the Magic accepting it. They can and will do better.

From who?

Not many teams have the payroll flexibility to absorb a Hedo-type contract back. If Orlando values dumping payroll to begin a total overhaul, their options are limited.

[Brickowski]

The Celtics will have that kind of flexibility about 7 months from now.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

From who?

Not many teams have the payroll flexibility to absorb a Hedo-type contract back. If Orlando values dumping payroll to begin a total overhaul, their options are limited.

The Lakers. Bynum + Gasol + draft picks for Howard + Arenas. The Magic can then amnesty Hedo, the Lakers can amnesty Arenas, and Orlando gets a current all star, a potential all star in Bynum, draft picks, gets out from under Arenas' contract and Hedo's contract.

The Clippers have also stated that they'll do everything but trade Griffin for Howard, and they too have the space to take on payroll. They can also offer Eric Gordon with Aminu. Gordon is a better piece than Lopez, and Aminu is better than any complementary piece the Nets can send.

Additionally, the Bulls could send some combination of Noah/Boozer/Gibson. Another long shot possibility is Golden State, who is now in on on David West, which suggests that they may view David Lee as expendable. A package of David Lee and Monta Ellis + draft picks for Howard and Turkoglu works, and is better than what the Nets can offer. Of course, Howard to Golden State is unlikely because who knows if he's interested in the Bay Area.

So there are definitely other options out there.