676 replies to this topic

[TheGazelle]

What's the alternative? Tell me how to acquire a centerpiece player.

The calls to rebuild began in 09, as many said Garnett would never be good again, they gained steam in the middle of 2010, when many suggested Allen had to be traded because the C's were not contenders. Don't recall who folks wanted him traded for, but of course, they then made it to game 7 of the finals.

Hope Dwight Howard isn't traded and hits free agency at the end of the year. I think that's pretty much it, near term. If your question is what the C's can do to acquire a centerpiece during this season, I don't see how they have the assets.

[swingin val]

If we can't land a player like Dwight Howard or even Marc Gasol over the next couple of years, we will be irrelevant for a while. Everything we do should be geared towards securing that centerpiece player. What we do starting this week and ending the start of camp next season will determine whether the Celtics will remain in the upper tier or sink into what I call Raptor-ville.

There really is no comparison to those two players. Dwight Howard makes you an immediate contender. Marc Gasol does not.

[Brickowski]

There really is no comparison to those two players. Dwight Howard makes you an immediate contender. Marc Gasol does not.

Well, Dwight Howard, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Green, an aging Paul Pierce and some bits and pieces do not constitute a contending team either.

There are rumors today that the Celtics are interested in Tyson Chandler, but I just don't see it happening unless the C's are prepared to trade Ray Allen. Even if the C's were willing to do that, why wouldn't the Mavs use the amnesty on Brendan Haywood (horrible contract, BTW) and use the resulting cap space to resign Chandler?

We will be deluged with rumors over the next ten days, half of which will be initiated by agents trying to create a market for their clients.

[EddieYost]

Well, Dwight Howard, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Green, an aging Paul Pierce and some bits and pieces do not constitute a contending team either.

Really? Certainly not the favorite but... I would take that.

[Captaincoop]

Really? Certainly not the favorite but... I would take that.

That actually constitutes the best case scenario for 2013.

[CreightonGubanich]

Well, Dwight Howard, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Green, an aging Paul Pierce and some bits and pieces do not constitute a contending team either.

I know you hate Dwight Howard and all, but this is a ridiculous statement. They might not be odds-on favorites to win the title, but they would absolutely be contenders.

I don't buy the idea that Howard and Rondo can't play together. Remember how Rondo made 39-year-old Shaq look like a competent offensive player? That's what Rondo does. The amount of easy buckets that Howard would get in Boston would be staggering - he's never really played with a true point guard either. All they would need is a two-guard who could spread the floor and create his own shot a bit, and those guys are a dime a dozen (like a Jason Richardson type).

Of course, getting Howard here is another matter entirely. It's definitely a long shot, because fair or not, Boston is just not a premier destination for free agents in the NBA. Maybe Howard has different criteria, maybe not. The bigger problem is that managing the roster to keep cap space for Howard is in direct conflict with building a team that can win a title this season. Anybody they can add this year on a one year deal isn't likely to push them over the top (and maybe that's a reason they'd be willing to take a flyer on Iverson). I'm in the GFIN camp - passing up one more year of the Rondo+Big Three era for an outside shot at being able to sign Howard doesn't seem wise to me.

[Brickowski]

They would be a contending team only if they were able to resign Garnett for a couple of years for much less money as one of the other Pieces. Otherwise, I don't see how that team gets past Miami in the playoffs.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Combining Dwight Howard with any star level players immediately makes a team a contender. He made the finals with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and Rafer Alston!!! as his sidekicks.

I have no idea how the Celtics should build their team. I don't want them to suck again but that seems inevitable barring a miracle or some incredibly fancy footwork by Ainge. I'm still holding out hope for the latter given that Doc signed such a long extension. I want to think that he wouldn't have done so unless Ainge had some serious plans up his sleeve for the future of the team.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I'll be very, very surprised if Dwight Howard makes it to free agency. It seems really far fetched to me that he ends up with the Celtics--and when I say far fetched, I mean I'd put the odds of him playing for the Celtics at less than 3%--and yet this entire thread seems preoccupied with the idea. Given what happened in Cleveland and Toronto with James and Bosh, I just don't see how Orlando doesn't shop Howard this season. There's simply too much risk associated with getting nothing in return for him, and there are too many teams who would be willing to offer attractive packages to get him. The Lakers could offer a package built around Bynum or Gasol, the Clippers could offer a package built around Eric Gordon, the Bulls could offer Noah/Boozer/Taj Gibson, and the Thunder could offer Ibaka, Harden or even Westbrook.

The Celtics just aren't in the mix for him.

[dolomite133]

I think the majority of us agree Howard and Rondo would be a great foundation moving forward. And anyone who would pass on Marc Gasol is crazy because he'll be a great player for the next five years. Guy is a legit 26 year old big man.

For those who don't want either, how do you propose we remain relevant? Keeping the big three together this year is a 60 game band aid.

[Rudy Pemberton]

How do the Celtics acquire Gasol or Howard? You still haven't answered that.

[04101Seadog]

How do the Celtics acquire Gasol or Howard? You still haven't answered that.

With Gasol it just takes money as he's an RFA but it's money we don't have unless we amnesty Garnett, which you wouldn't do to get out of 1 year left of contract. I think more you see some possible buyouts signing for vet minimums, as with the new CBA we're kind of painted in a corner.

[TheGazelle]

How do the Celtics acquire Gasol or Howard? You still haven't answered that.

I believe that Gasol is an RFA right now and Howard is a free agent at the end of this season. They Celtics will absolutely have max money to offer Howard since Ray and KG come off the books after this season.

[Brickowski]

It's not enough to be able to offer max money for Howard. The successful bidder will need to possess the pieces for a sign and trade, since Orlando can offer him an additional year plus 7.5% annual increases instead of 4.5%. The team that will have those pieces will likely be the Los Angeles Lakers (e.g. Bynum) or the Miami Heat (e.g. Bosh), either in an extend-and-trade deal at the deadline or a sign and trade in July, 2012.

Maybe the Magic can't resign him, but they're certainly not going to let him go for nothing. In theory the Celtics could get him for Garnett in an "extend and trade" at the deadline, but Ainge would have to give up a ton of draft choices to do it. And that only happens if the Magic elect to embark on a complete rebuild.Otherwise, the Magic will want decent young players in return.

Edited by Brickowski, 29 November 2011 - 11:44 AM.

[dolomite133]

With Gasol it just takes money as he's an RFA but it's money we don't have unless we amnesty Garnett, which you wouldn't do to get out of 1 year left of contract. I think more you see some possible buyouts signing for vet minimums, as with the new CBA we're kind of painted in a corner.

How about we amnesty Garnett (wink wink) then resign him for a short money, 1-2 year deal and pay out the max for Gasol? That move would appease the short term "win now" and long term "rebuild" thinkers out there.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

How about we amnesty Garnett (wink wink) then resign him for a short money, 1-2 year deal and pay out the max for Gasol? That move would appease the short term "win now" and long term "rebuild" thinkers out there.

Because Garnett has one year left on his deal, and every team with cap space would put in a bid for him at the league minimum, because why wouldn't they want Kevin Garnett for one year at the league minimum?

[CreightonGubanich]

How about we amnesty Garnett (wink wink) then resign him for a short money, 1-2 year deal and pay out the max for Gasol? That move would appease the short term "win now" and long term "rebuild" thinkers out there.

Wait, max money for Marc Gasol? How did we get here? He's a nice complementary piece, sure, but a difference maker he is not. Especially not at the risk of losing Kevin Garnett.

[funkyriddim]

Also, the new amnestied player clause comes with a complicated bidding system on amnestied FA's that wouldn't be favorable to the Celtics. I would rather trade Garnett's expiring for something then take on the chubby Gasol brother long-term.

[dolomite133]

Because Garnett has one year left on his deal, and every team with cap space would put in a bid for him at the league minimum, because why wouldn't they want Kevin Garnett for one year at the league minimum?

The implication is there would be an unspoken deal. I mean, KG would get his money no matter what (we'd still be on the hook for his old deal), plus he'd get the additional money from his "new" contract. ... And how much does everyone expect Gasol will command with his next contract? Big men half as good get paid twice as much in this league. I expect Gasol will command a pretty hefty price moving forward. And it's not totally undeserved. He's really good.

EDIT: Just read the above post. Didn't realize "amnestied" players would be subject to a bidding process. That would probably deep six my idea.

Edited by dolomite133, 29 November 2011 - 12:45 PM.

[lexrageorge]

It's not enough to be able to offer max money for Howard. The successful bidder will need to possess the pieces for a sign and trade, since Orlando can offer him an additional year plus 7.5% annual increases instead of 4.5%. The team that will have those pieces will likely be the Los Angeles Lakers (e.g. Bynum) or the Miami Heat (e.g. Bosh), either in an extend-and-trade deal at the deadline or a sign and trade in July, 2012.

Maybe the Magic can't resign him, but they're certainly not going to let him go for nothing. In theory the Celtics could get him for Garnett in an "extend and trade" at the deadline, but Ainge would have to give up a ton of draft choices to do it. And that only happens if the Magic elect to embark on a complete rebuild.Otherwise, the Magic will want decent young players in return.

But could the Heat really make that trade? I thought under the terms of the new CBA making such a deal would be impossible for a team >4M over the cap. I believe Miami has $65M committed for 2012-13, and that is a lot more than the $58M cap.

The Lakers have a bit more flexibility; they could decide not to renew Odom's option, which may allow them to make such a trade (Bynum plus stuff for Howard).

Also, if Howard doesn't want to go back to Orlando, there's nothing to force him to accept Orlando's offer. In that case, he's a UFA, and he can go anywhere he wants for max money.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The implication is there would be an unspoken deal. I mean, KG would get his money no matter what (we'd still be on the hook for his old deal), plus he'd get the additional money from his "new" contract. ... And how much does everyone expect Gasol will command with his next contract? Big men half as good get paid twice as much in this league. I expect Gasol will command a pretty hefty price moving forward. And it's not totally undeserved. He's really good.

Given our situation, Gasol might be the best we can do for the foreseeable future. Add a scoring shooting guard (perhaps Green?) to the mix, bring in a role playing power forward (a mid-level exception type veteran with solid rebounding skills?), knock on wood that Pierce has something left in the tank for a couple more years (maybe eventually coming off the bench), scour the world for a three-point shooter to come off the bench, and we're in business.

edit: replied before you edited your previous post.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 29 November 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[nighthob]

But could the Heat really make that trade? I thought under the terms of the new CBA making such a deal would be impossible for a team >4M over the cap. I believe Miami has $65M committed for 2012-13, and that is a lot more than the $58M cap.

The Lakers have $57 million committed to four players in 2013. They have two guys with player options totaling another ten million that are pretty much guaranteed to pick them up (Artest & Fisher). That's before the $25 million they have committed to Bynum and Odom. So even if they decline the options on both of those deals they'd still have a higher payroll than the Heat. Personally I'm hoping for a Superman for Dead President trade, as it would be the funniest in the history of the NBA.

[Riles335]

I'm all in on the Dwight Howard sweep stake (I truly feel that Doc Rivers signed here for a reason) but over the course of this discussion we have also heard names from DeAndre Jordan to Marc Gasol, to Tyson Chandler. I'm not saying the Celtics should attempt to sign this player but what about Greg Oden?

It seems as if the Blazers are 50/50 on bringing back Oden as he is a restricted free agent and has had a history of injury problems that worry many teams around the league. I think Oden would be someone to take a serious look at if the money is right. His injuries have been quite unlucky and if he can stay healthy, he has shown he can be a force. His game when healthy is on another planet in comparison to Jordan, Gasol, and Chandler. Signing Oden could keep the door open in still bringing in Chris Paul for a Rajon Rondo package or possible to sign a player like Eric Gordon to be the successor to Ray Allen if you decide to keep Rondo. Signing a guy like Oden could make or break Ainge down the road but sometimes its the risks you have to take. Its a risky idea undoubtedly but like I said, I'm not saying the Celtics should sign him or will sign him but rather what are everyone's thoughts on looking at Greg Oden?

Edit - To add to this, Wyc stated that Oden is still on his radar as of May 2011

http://www.blazersed...n-celtics-radar

Edited by Riles335, 29 November 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[Brickowski]

Oden is a restricted free agent, yes? The Blazers could match, assuming they've extended the QO. But yes, he is a player whose upside might justify the huge risk. Another big man who hasn't been discussed much here is Nene. If he goes to Miami that would be very bad news for the Celtics.

BTW, at least one thing I posted earlier may be incorrect. According to ESPN's summary of the new CBA (by Larry Coon) raises in all sign-and trade deals are limited to 4.5%. But does that apply to players whose teams have Bird rights? The ESPN summary seems to imply that yes, Howard could get 7.5% raises only if he stays with Orlando.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Oden is a restricted free agent, yes? The Blazers could match, assuming they've extended the QO. But yes, he is a player whose upside might justify the huge risk. Another big man who hasn't been discussed much here is Nene. If he goes to Miami that would be very bad news for the Celtics.

BTW, at least one thing I posted earlier may be incorrect. According to ESPN's summary of the new CBA (by Larry Coon) raises in all sign-and trade deals are limited to 4.5%. But does that apply to players whose teams have Bird rights? The ESPN summary seems to imply that yes, Howard could get 7.5% raises only if he stays with Orlando.

Fyi, the Blazers extended the QO prior to the lockout.

[gammoseditor]

How about we amnesty Garnett (wink wink) then resign him for a short money, 1-2 year deal and pay out the max for Gasol? That move would appease the short term "win now" and long term "rebuild" thinkers out there.

Basketball wise it would be a great move to pull that with Garnett, I'm just not sure it's realistic. No one is going to argue that it would be bad for the Celtics, but you have problems with owners spending money, the NBA getting pissed, and the risk of Garnett taking money somewhere else. The Cavs did something similar with Carlos Boozer except that there was no benefit to the cavs in the first place and he screwed them over.

I would love to get Marc Gasol even if it were for max money. I just don't think it's happening.

[swingin val]

Basketball wise it would be a great move to pull that with Garnett, I'm just not sure it's realistic. No one is going to argue that it would be bad for the Celtics, but you have problems with owners spending money, the NBA getting pissed, and the risk of Garnett taking money somewhere else. The Cavs did something similar with Carlos Boozer except that there was no benefit to the cavs in the first place and he screwed them over.

I would love to get Marc Gasol even if it were for max money. I just don't think it's happening.

If Kevin Garnett is amnestied, he is not coming back to the Celtics. It doesn't matter what sort of wink wink deal you think they can make. There is no chance he is coming back. Any team that is under the cap can put a bid on for him. And most likely every team under the cap would put a bid in for him.

And it is absolutely crazy talk to suggest that Marc Gasol is worth max money.

[dolomite133]

If Kevin Garnett is amnestied, he is not coming back to the Celtics. It doesn't matter what sort of wink wink deal you think they can make. There is no chance he is coming back. Any team that is under the cap can put a bid on for him. And most likely every team under the cap would put a bid in for him.

And it is absolutely crazy talk to suggest that Marc Gasol is worth max money.

Come back in a year and tell me how crazy it is.

[Brickowski]

Well, if Garnett is able to return to the C's after being amnestied and then clearing waivers (there seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not this is possible), Garnett could simply announce that if any team claims him, he'll retire.

[CreightonGubanich]

Come back in a year and tell me how crazy it is.

Having it happen would not, in any way, reduce the craziness of it. It's not like it would be the first time a team grossly overpaid for an above average big man. Marc Gasol should absolutely not be a max player.

[nighthob]

I don't get the Marc Gasol hate. I'd rather have him than the Sta-Puff Marshmallow Man (AKA Pau Gasol).

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I like Marc Gasol, too. But not on a max deal with increasingly large taxes for hitting the luxury tax line on the way.

[Brickowski]

IMHO you could get any one of the three decent FA centers: Gasol, Chandler or Nene, in a deal starting at around 10M a year. You would have to pay "Rondo money" not max money.

Edited by Brickowski, 30 November 2011 - 12:37 PM.

[nighthob]

IMHO you could get any one of the three decent FA centers: Gasol, Chandler or Nene, in a deal starting at around 10M a year. You would have to pay "Rondo money" not max money.

Yeah, with the new CBA this is about right. He's a solid post defender and a legit 20/10 threat. He'd be ideal behind Garnett. He might not be as good defensively as Perkins, but the offensive differential makes him infinitely more valuable while replicating Perkins' skill.

[dolomite133]

IMHO you could get any one of the three decent FA centers: Gasol, Chandler or Nene, in a deal starting at around 10M a year. You would have to pay "Rondo money" not max money.

That would be nice. If a guy like Gasol only cost 10M/year that would be a steal.

[RedOctober3829]

Source says Portland, New Orleans, Indiana and Boston have all expressed very real interest in free agent forward Carl Landry.

https://twitter.com/#!/sam_amick/status/141997588298739712

[Reardons Beard]

https://twitter.com/#!/sam_amick/status/141997588298739712

Landry plays hard when he gets the minutes - there aren't many better options for a rotation guy at what I assume is a reasonable value.

[nighthob]

I'd like to see them take a flyer on Brandan Wright.

[Riles335]

https://twitter.com/...997588298739712

Are Paul and Landry good buddies? I don't really see a spot for Landry unless either, possibly both, Jeff Green and Big Baby Davis are gone through free agency/sign and trade. Seems very redundant. Unless of course Landry could be another selling point to get Paul to play here in Boston. Seems to me like Ainge is going all in on this and will continue to pry away until he gets Paul.

[Brickowski]

Landry=Udonis Haslem. Both useful players. But Landry is not a center. They need another center because JO will never make it through a full season with his knees.

[CaptainLaddie]

Atlanta (where I travelled on business for years) may be the most boring city in the western hemisphere. They roll the sidewalks up at 6:00 pm. Plus, Black players have to deal with the rednecks when they venture outside Black or integrated neighborhoods.

I can see why a Black player might prefer LA, NY, DC, Miami or Chicago. But Atlanta? Maybe Dwight Howard is a special case because he grew up there. But the city itself his very little to recommend it as opposed to a city like Boston.

You have no idea about Atlanta.

I can say this with full authority: Atlanta is a MECCA for young African Americans. There is a huge nightlife scene, huge hip-hop music scene, and a huge singles scene.

I'm guessing that you aren't into nightlife, hip-hop, or single, as many NBA players are. I'm guessing that your "business trips", never actually took you to any of the spots that these players would go to.

Err... I'll stick by that claim-- that the women in Boston are just as pretty as a percentage of the population-- given the co-eds who come to Boston (and vicinity) every year. They just wear more clothes, since the weather is colder. Obviously Boston is smaller than NY or LA.


But it matters little if I'm right or wrong. Race-- or the proportion of good looking women-- are not significant factors in determining where free agents decide to go. The significant factor is money in most cases.

And this is still wrong. The women in Boston don't compare to LA. Or Miami. Sorry.

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 30 November 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[Brickowski]

Nope-- I'm not into the hip hop scene.

I go to Miami quite frequently, but the women there are no prettier than Boston's. Maybe the women in LA are prettier-- haven't been there since 2001. But I bet they aren't, per capita.

[Statman]

Maybe the women in LA are prettier-- haven't been there since 2001. But I bet they aren't, per capita.

Having lived in Boston for five years and currently living in LA, I can say with absolutely certainty that LA girls are prettier than Boston girls, on per capita or whatever basis. LA is the film and entertainment mecca of the world and you have no idea how many pretty girls are living here trying to catch their big break.

[mikeford]

A. Sherrod Blakely

Multiple league sources confirmed the #Celtics have expressed interest in the following players: Shane Battier, Kwame Brown, Marquis Daniels, Aaron Gray and Roger Mason. Other reports have linked the C's with Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes.


Going down that list: Want, Don't want, Don't want, Want, Kindof Want, Want, Kindof Want.

[bosockboy]

A. Sherrod Blakely

Multiple league sources confirmed the #Celtics have expressed interest in the following players: Shane Battier, Kwame Brown, Marquis Daniels, Aaron Gray and Roger Mason. Other reports have linked the C's with Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes.


Going down that list: Want, Don't want, Don't want, Want, Kindof Want, Want, Kindof Want.

Would Battier cost us the full MLE most likely?

[Riles335]

A. Sherrod Blakely

Multiple league sources confirmed the #Celtics have expressed interest in the following players: Shane Battier, Kwame Brown, Marquis Daniels, Aaron Gray and Roger Mason. Other reports have linked the C's with Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes.


Going down that list: Want, Don't want, Don't want, Want, Kindof Want, Want, Kindof Want.

Does anybody else view the interest that the Celtics have towards Landry to be a further attempt at trading for and extending Chris Paul? Does anybody have any information towards their relationship? They have been successful teammates in the past and its possibly they were good buddies. To me it seems that Landry, Big Baby, and Jeff Green is quite redundant. Personally, there is only room for one of these players. If Landry comes here, seems obvious that Baby and Green would be out by either free agency or sign and trade, and that Landry would be brought in to maybe pull in Paul.

Edited by Riles335, 30 November 2011 - 07:40 PM.

[Brickowski]

Having lived in Boston for five years and currently living in LA, I can say with absolutely certainty that LA girls are prettier than Boston girls, on per capita or whatever basis. LA is the film and entertainment mecca of the world and you have no idea how many pretty girls are living here trying to catch their big break.

I'll take your word for it. But some of the women who go to college before heading to LA spend a few years in Boston first.

[Brickowski]

A. Sherrod Blakely

Multiple league sources confirmed the #Celtics have expressed interest in the following players: Shane Battier, Kwame Brown, Marquis Daniels, Aaron Gray and Roger Mason. Other reports have linked the C's with Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes.


Going down that list: Want, Don't want, Don't want, Want, Kindof Want, Want, Kindof Want.

I'm fine with any of those players except Kwame. He has the worst hands of any player I've seen since Vitaly Potapenko.

[mikeford]

Would Battier cost us the full MLE most likely?

The most money we can offer with the MLE thanks to the new CBA and the restrictions on teams over the cap signing their Bird Rights guys and all that other nonsense is 3M... so, yeah I'd have to expect Battier would want that and probably more, which would rule him out for us. He made nearly 7.5m last year.

[Brickowski]

The most money we can offer with the MLE thanks to the new CBA and the restrictions on teams over the cap signing their Bird Rights guys and all that other nonsense is 3M... so, yeah I'd have to expect Battier would want that and probably more, which would rule him out for us. He made nearly 7.5m last year.

Well, if the Celtics used the amnesty provision on Rasheed Wallace they would be below the luxury tax threshhold and would presumably have the full MLE available. Of course, in all likelihood, none of us fully undersatands how the new deal works at this point. Jeff green also comes off the cap if he receives an offer sheet and the C's don't match. I view that as unlikely, but you never know.

Edited by Brickowski, 30 November 2011 - 08:06 PM.