676 replies to this topic

[Sprowl]

Every move we make this year should be with an eye towards 2012-13. We need to rebuild. Competing for a title this year ... honestly it's a pipe dream given our age and the number of back to backs we're going to have to play.

I couldn't agree less: every move the Celtics make this year should be with an eye towards 2011-2012. Go For It Now. This is the last year that the Big Three are likely to be competitive. The original window was three years, but Allen's longevity and durability and Garnett's recovery give them the chance to squeeze out a fifth shot at the playoffs. As the 2010 playoffs showed, veteran smarts can take a team a long way, and in a shortened season, strange things can happen.

Forget rebuilding, smoke the pipe, and dream of winning now. When rebuilding happens, as happen it must eventually, it's going to mean multiple years in the cellar. Don't bring that on any sooner than necessary.

[HomeRunBaker]

Can't find a center that makes sense and would fit under the cap. Maybe Elson from Utah, but that would be as the backup to JO. Not very exciting.

Kwame is a guy we could use our mini-MLE or Quisy's $2.4m trade exception on and is a much better player than Elson who is really bad. Kwame played fair well as Charlotte's starting 5 last year and is a guy who could look good behind Jermaine without having to play as many minutes as he did for the Bobcats.

[Captaincoop]

Yikes, Elson is really bad. Didn't realize how old he was, I guess he was 27 when he came into the league, and he has completely stopped rebounding.

Still, I can't imagine Kwame playing meaningful minutes for a contender.

[Nomar813]

Realistic free agents the Celtics should make a play for:

JJ Barea - fills the old Eddie House role, provides second unit scoring, and could pair up at times with Rondo to get a shooter up top and free up the lane a little bit.

Chuck Hayes - A Baby replacement who rebounds better, stays in the paint, and knows his role.

Craig Smith - a solid alternative to Hayes, another guy with Boston ties who would come affordably.

Can't find a center that makes sense and would fit under the cap. Maybe Elson from Utah, but that would be as the backup to JO. Not very exciting.

Hayes would really be an outstanding guy to pick up and I hope there's a chance he comes here. As a Baby replacement, he is the anti-Baby. He's a great one-on-one defender in the post, a tough rebounder, by all indications a leader, a surprisingly good passer - the guy looks for the outlet pass and knows where to put it. He does a great job of making up for his size which often causes him to be overlooked. I love his game and think he'd be the right compliment to Green, if both can be signed.

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Rotoworld has a blurb up about the C's considering Allen Iverson. I'd link it but Rotoworld doesn't allow direct links to blurbs.

This is crazy and a bad idea because he is a bad basketball player.

[nighthob]

Banking on luring big ticket free agents is not a realistic expectation for us Boston fans. Boston simply is not a first-tier free agent destination for potential free agents. Miami, LA, New York, and the Texas teams (no income tax) are all much more attractive for potential free agents. Remember, KG had to be convinced to come to Boston because of its bad reputation regarding race relations. Yes, things have gotten better, but Boston is still a cold weather city and isn't exactly in the same class as a Miami, Atlanta, LA or New York in terms of being attractive for young African-American males.

Can we please dispense with this myth? How tough has it been for the Patriots to sign free agents of any color this past decade? And sign them to play in an outdoor facility in what is, frankly, a corner of the Arctic Circle once January arrives? How tough has it been for the Red Sox to sign free agents of any background?

Garnett balked at first not because of "race relations" but because in the original trade the Boston Celtics would have consisted of Garnett, Pierce, Perkins, Rondo and a player he despised (Szczerbiak). In the first version of the trade the rest of the roster was headed to Minnesota and Garnett didn't believe that what was left had a shot at a title. What changed his mind was Boston's unloading of Szczerbiak and replacing him with one of his oldest friends in the NBA. Because then Boston had a chance at a title.

And with any proposed free agent that's all that's going to matter, the cash and the chance to win. The reason that the team won't be on anyone's radar at the moment is that as constructed it has about a zero percent chance of beating Chicago or Miami in the postseason.

Going forward, Rondo (and perhaps Green) are the two building blocks you have to construct a team around.

That's a team that's 45 win playoff fodder for contenders. No thanks, really.

Signing a big man is not a good idea seeing as you are going to have to overpay big time and chew up what looks like a less flexible cap going forward. If a Deandre Jordan falls into your lap for a reasonable deal, you go for it, but I would not go the FA route for big men.

Generally speaking you either have to sign them or trade for them. Otherwise you need to have the ping pong ball bounce your way after an 18 win season to get quality big men, and that nearly never works out. Because for every Marc Gasol there are a dozen Acie Earls (EDIT: I should clarify that this is in reference to hitting the lottery on big men drafted outside the top ten).

Edited by nighthob, 28 November 2011 - 12:53 AM.

[nighthob]

Kwame is a guy we could use our mini-MLE or Quisy's $2.4m trade exception on and is a much better player than Elson who is really bad. Kwame played fair well as Charlotte's starting 5 last year and is a guy who could look good behind Jermaine without having to play as many minutes as he did for the Bobcats.

I keep saying this, Brown has exactly one skill, he can defend the post. Thankfully that's really all that Boston needs from him, and he'd be a heck of a lot cheaper than Perkins at this point. Sure he has lobster claws rather than hands and can't really be anywhere near a basketball floor in the fourth quarter, but that's what Boston has Garnett, Green and O'Neal for.

[knucklecup]

I don't think the Celtics are too far off if they're able to retain Green, Davis, West, and even Troy Murphy, as I expect Bradley to be improved enough to provide decent minutes as a last resort option. I really think Johnson could play some minutes and be fine as well.

People have written off Murphy as if he's done when a year ago he was a borderline great player. He can play center, play power forward, should come cheap, and I think would be a great value guy on a year veteran exception type deal in an attempt to get a better deal next year.

Going along with my Pacers obsession, I don't see why Mike Dunleavy wouldn't consider signing as a back up small forward.

That would leave a need for a big and a point guard. I would imagine you could split the MLE on Kwame Brown and TJ Ford. I'd prefer Dalembert but they're basically the same player and with Brown's age, he won't be signing for as long. Ford is a guy who I really thought was unfairly treated by my beloved Pacers. When Collison went out in the first round against the Bulls, Ford didn't miss a beat and actually hit a full court buzzer beater - not that that one lucky play matters, interesting nonetheless.

Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, O'Neal
Ford, West, Green, Davis, Brown
Bradley, Moore, Dunleavy, Johnson, Murphy

I don't see why they can't compete next year. Yes, I'm assuming that some key pieces will be resigned, I can't imagine Jeff Green getting away. Same goes with Delonte - I just get that vibe that this is his team. If Davis flees for the most money, more power to him, he can be replaced - Craig Smith, etc.

Other realistic options include Marquis Daniels, Grant Hill, Al Thornton, Anthony Parker, Kurt Thomas, JJ Barea, Reggie Evans,

Wishful thinking = Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, Marc Gasol, Josh Howard, Andrei Kirilenko, Thaddeus Young.

[Brickowski]

If they bring back Troy Murphy I'm going to puke. I'll puke twice if they bring in Dunleavy.

I'd forget about JJ Barea-- it's 95% or better that he returns to Dallas. Cuban loves him and has the money to pay him (and Kidd isn't getting any younger). The best option for the C's at backup pg is Delonte West. TJ Ford has skills but has also butted heads with coaches and other players wherever he has been. That's why he's been traded so often. If they are worried about West being injury prone, I'd like to see them go after Goran Dragic (if the Rockets don't exercise their team option).

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I don't think the Celtics are too far off if they're able to retain Green, Davis, West, and even Troy Murphy, as I expect Bradley to be improved enough to provide decent minutes as a last resort option. I really think Johnson could play some minutes and be fine as well.

People have written off Murphy as if he's done when a year ago he was a borderline great player. He can play center, play power forward, should come cheap, and I think would be a great value guy on a year veteran exception type deal in an attempt to get a better deal next year.

Going along with my Pacers obsession, I don't see why Mike Dunleavy wouldn't consider signing as a back up small forward.

That would leave a need for a big and a point guard. I would imagine you could split the MLE on Kwame Brown and TJ Ford. I'd prefer Dalembert but they're basically the same player and with Brown's age, he won't be signing for as long. Ford is a guy who I really thought was unfairly treated by my beloved Pacers. When Collison went out in the first round against the Bulls, Ford didn't miss a beat and actually hit a full court buzzer beater - not that that one lucky play matters, interesting nonetheless.

Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, O'Neal
Ford, West, Green, Davis, Brown
Bradley, Moore, Dunleavy, Johnson, Murphy

I don't see why they can't compete next year. Yes, I'm assuming that some key pieces will be resigned, I can't imagine Jeff Green getting away. Same goes with Delonte - I just get that vibe that this is his team. If Davis flees for the most money, more power to him, he can be replaced - Craig Smith, etc.

Other realistic options include Marquis Daniels, Grant Hill, Al Thornton, Anthony Parker, Kurt Thomas, JJ Barea, Reggie Evans,

Wishful thinking = Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, Marc Gasol, Josh Howard, Andrei Kirilenko, Thaddeus Young.

The manner in which teams can use the MLE has changed pretty significantly in this CBA. Essentially, the new CBA makes it very difficult for teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Dallas and others near the luxury tax line to use the full MLE. The current CBA sets a barrier 4 million dollars over the luxury tax line for any team that uses the full MLE, so if the C's used the full MLE on Kwame Brown and TJ Ford, they'd be at about 71 million dollars, and would not be able to cross the 74 million dollar threshold, even if they're re-signing their own players (which used to be allowed through Bird Rights) or signing guys to the veteran miniumum (which also used to be allowed). That makes the roster you outlined above virtually impossible, as once Brown and Ford were signed, they'd only have 3 million dollars with which to sign Davis, Green, Dunleavy, and Murphy.

[mikeford]

TJ Ford is also made of glass. Not sure there would even be a need for him with Delonte back in the fold, assuming that comes to fruition.

[Super Nomario]

According to his Wikipedia Howard is very religious, likes Gospel music, and doesn't seem to be much of a partier / clubbing guy. He grew up in Atlanta so he's probably used to living in the Southeast, but I don't think you have much idea of what he's looking for in a place to live and pointing out the blue laws tells me you're assuming a lot. I'd say with the 17 banners and a well-respected coach the C's have as much of a chance as anyone if he wants to leave the area he grew up in -- but we don't know what's important to him, nor should we pretend we know just because of his age and race.

I was trying to make a broader point about Boston's appeal (or lack thereof) to NBA players generally; you're right that in any individual case a person's values and priorities will be different. And really, this is specific to the NBA largely in the respect that individual player salaries are capped by the NBA, so Boston can't outbid an LA or New York or Miami like it can in baseball. If a young star can make $15 MM in Boston or $15 MM in Miami, it becomes a pure quality-of-life decision.

[nighthob]

TJ Ford is also made of glass. Not sure there would even be a need for him with Delonte back in the fold, assuming that comes to fruition.

As both guys are made of glass you would actually need both to make sure that you had a full season's worth of backup.

[nighthob]

I was trying to make a broader point about Boston's appeal (or lack thereof) to NBA players generally; you're right that in any individual case a person's values and priorities will be different. And really, this is specific to the NBA largely in the respect that individual player salaries are capped by the NBA, so Boston can't outbid an LA or New York or Miami like it can in baseball. If a young star can make $15 MM in Boston or $15 MM in Miami, it becomes a pure quality-of-life decision.

True, this is why black players have adamantly refused to sign with the New England Patriots. Because in a league with a hard cap, all that matters is quality of life.

[lexrageorge]

I was trying to make a broader point about Boston's appeal (or lack thereof) to NBA players generally; you're right that in any individual case a person's values and priorities will be different. And really, this is specific to the NBA largely in the respect that individual player salaries are capped by the NBA, so Boston can't outbid an LA or New York or Miami like it can in baseball. If a young star can make $15 MM in Boston or $15 MM in Miami, it becomes a pure quality-of-life decision.

One point you're missing is that of those teams, Boston is the most likely one to have cap space after this season, and the new CBA will make exceeding the cap that much more difficult and painful. The competition for FA's next year may very well be Sacramento and Memphis, not NY/Miami/LA.

[dolomite133]

I couldn't agree less: every move the Celtics make this year should be with an eye towards 2011-2012. Go For It Now. This is the last year that the Big Three are likely to be competitive. The original window was three years, but Allen's longevity and durability and Garnett's recovery give them the chance to squeeze out a fifth shot at the playoffs. As the 2010 playoffs showed, veteran smarts can take a team a long way, and in a shortened season, strange things can happen.

Forget rebuilding, smoke the pipe, and dream of winning now. When rebuilding happens, as happen it must eventually, it's going to mean multiple years in the cellar. Don't bring that on any sooner than necessary.

The odds this team can win a title with its current roster, given the likelihood of a brutal, condensed schedule full of back-to-back(-to-back?) games, is very low. Miami, Chicago and even New York will be very tough this year assuming they can fill out their rosters Never mind the western conference teams.

If we panic this year, and sign lousy long-term contracts to squeeze a final run out of the big three, we risk being uncompetitive for the next decade. We need to begin the transition ASAP and create a new foundation, making us attractive to all-star caliber free agents. Rondo alone won't be enough. Neither will Rondo and Green. The Celtics should consider packaging Baby and Ray and dealing them for a building block. I wouldn't put a lot of thought into trading KG and Pierce because they would probably yield diminished returns (KG because of his age and injury history, Pierce because of his age and the length/amount of his contract).

Edited by dolomite133, 28 November 2011 - 02:06 PM.

[Brickowski]

Frankly, the quality of life difference after tax between 15M annually and 13M isn't that great. How many Escalades does one person have to own (unless you happen to be Kenny Anderson)? Also, quality of life includes quality of professional life, doesn't it? A free agent has to look at a team's management, coaches, trainers, facilities and roster. Will he enjoy the practices and the long flights?

Sure, there's a bar on every corner in South Beach or Cocoanut Grove and lot's of pretty girls (but no prettier than the girls in Boston, BTW). But that bar/party scene gets pretty stale after awhile, and some NBA players actually have steady girlfriends or wives who aren't divorcing them, so for those players, the bar scene is not so important.

Edited by Brickowski, 28 November 2011 - 02:07 PM.

[nighthob]

One point you're missing is that of those teams, Boston is the most likely one to have cap space after this season, and the new CBA will make exceeding the cap that much more difficult and painful. The competition for FA's next year may very well be Sacramento and Memphis, not NY/Miami/LA.

If Philadelphia amnesties Brand they could have around $20 million or so next summer (right now they'd have $21 million committed to AI2 & Louie Williams, plus the options of Turner & Holiday, which is another $7-$8 million plus whatever, if anything, they're paying to Hawes & Young).

Edited by nighthob, 28 November 2011 - 02:10 PM.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

If Philadelphia amnesties Brand they could have around $20 million or so next summer (right now they'd have $21 million committed to AI2 & Louie Williams, plus the options of Turner & Holiday, which is another $7-$8 million plus whatever, if anything, they're paying to Hawes & Young).

The Knicks will have 20 million next summer, too.

[nighthob]

The Knicks will have 20 million next summer, too.

The cap's going to be $58 million, they have $41 million committed to three players, Landry Fields' cap hold, plus minimum cap holds for eight players, so they actually have more like $10-$12 million.

Edited by nighthob, 28 November 2011 - 02:49 PM.

[Brickowski]

Last year's cap was a shade over 58 million, but how do you know what the 2011-2012 cap will be?

[nighthob]

Last year's cap was a shade over 58 million, but how do you know what the 2011-2012 cap will be?

I thought that as part of the new CBA the cap & luxury tax lines were remaining the same for years 1 & 2?

[Reardons Beard]

Abbreviated and initial wish list:

Shane Battier
Tyson Chandler
Delonte West
Shane Battier
Marc Gasol
Allen Iverson
Shane Battier

[Brickowski]

I thought that as part of the new CBA the cap & luxury tax lines were remaining the same for years 1 & 2?

Thanks for the info. I hadn't seen that.

[nighthob]

Abbreviated and initial wish list:

Shane Battier
Tyson Chandler
Delonte West
Shane Battier
Marc Gasol
Allen Iverson
Shane Battier

I'm kind of hoping that The Good Gasol takes the QO this year, because he'd be in Boston's reach next summer, and would make a great addition to a re-signed Garnett and Allen (on more friendly deals) and CP3 (after Boston trades Rondo & Green for him )

[Sheets]

Sure, there's a bar on every corner in South Beach or Cocoanut Grove and lot's of pretty girls (but no prettier than the girls in Boston, BTW). But that bar/party scene gets pretty stale after awhile, and some NBA players actually have steady girlfriends or wives who aren't divorcing them, so for those players, the bar scene is not so important.

Shawn Bradley is not walking through that door, fans. A.C. Green is not walking through that door.

[PedroKsBambino]

Why do people think Allen Iverson has anything at all in the tank, out of curiosity?

[The Social Chair]

True, this is why black players have adamantly refused to sign with the New England Patriots. Because in a league with a hard cap, all that matters is quality of life.

The NFL and NBA are apples and oranges. The NFL has almost 5 times as many players on a team, there aren't guaranteed contracts, career length is shorter, and non-QBs elite players aren't worth as much to a team as elite NBA players are.

NBA free agents have much more power to decide where they want to live/play than NFL players do.

Sure, there's a bar on every corner in South Beach or Cocoanut Grove and lot's of pretty girls (but no prettier than the girls in Boston, BTW).

This is an irrlevant tangent but you are out of your mind if you think that's true. I've lived in LA for the last 2 years and the women out here aren't even on the same planet as Boston women, and Miami women are even better looking than LA women!

Edited by The Social Chair, 28 November 2011 - 04:22 PM.

[nighthob]

The NFL and NBA are apples and oranges. The NFL has almost 5 times as many players on a team, there aren't guaranteed contracts, career length is shorter, and non-QBs elite players aren't worth as much to a team as elite NBA players are.

NBA free agents have much more power to decide where they want to live/play than NFL players do.

You have a very weak grasp of the laws of supply and demand. Due to the greater supply of jobs NFL players have more ability to choose their playing locales, and partially because the contracts aren't guaranteed (because NFL teams suffer a much smaller penalty for cutting players football players get more shots at free agency than basketball ones).

The claim that keeps getting made is that "black players will never sign with Boston because it's cold and the people are racist meanies!" except that African-American players do sign with other Boston teams on a regular basis.

Of course, now we're getting v2.0 of the same excuse "The Red Sox can overpay!!!!" which ignores the fact that not only have the Patriots signed African-American free agents during the Belichick era, but many African-American players have actively campaigned to get themselves here (Dillon, Moss, Ochocinco). So why were they so motivated to come play in an outdoor facility in one of the NFL's icier spots (because many of the far north teams play indoors) in a sport with a hard cap?

I guess yours is v3.0 of the same lame excuse, "Because there are only one third as many jobs players are freer to go where they want!!!!"

No, they're not. They're limited by what teams have the available cap space to spend on those rare instances that they hit free agency. Because NBA deals are guaranteed players are rarely waived until the last year or two of their contract when they can be bought out inexpensively. That might change a little with the new buyout rules (that you can spread the cap hit out over twice the remaining years +1), but it doesn't change the fact that there's nearly always a limited pool of teams with the available cap space to spend, and some of those are in quality of life locales far worse. Like Detroit. Boston isn't a war zone the last time I checked.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

The cap's going to be $58 million, they have $41 million committed to three players, Landry Fields' cap hold, plus minimum cap holds for eight players, so they actually have more like $10-$12 million.

From what I've read, the cap holds have been reduced significantly in the new CBA. I'm not exactly sure of the extent of the changes, but the players pushed for a reduction in the cap holds to promote player movement. In addition, the cap holds are no longer directly tied to draft position, and are performance related, so in the Knicks case, Landry's cap hold will likely be higher as he outperformed his draft slot, but the cap holds of the 8 roster spots will be reduced and thus they'll have more money to spend in free agency.

[The Social Chair]

You have a very weak grasp of the laws of supply and demand. Due to the greater supply of jobs NFL players have more ability to choose their playing locales, and partially because the contracts aren't guaranteed (because NFL teams suffer a much smaller penalty for cutting players football players get more shots at free agency than basketball ones).

The top 12 players in the NBA can almost always decide where they want to play after their first extension expires (Melo to NY for example).

The NFL (besides the QB position) doesn't work like that. The Patriots aren't going to spend a ton of money on a player that doesn't fit their system. Lesean McCoy wouldn't make sense for the Patritos at the FA market value he would demand. Clay Mathews wasn't drafted by the Pats because he didn't fit their defensive system.

The Celtics, on the other hand, aren't turning down a top 12 player if they have the cap space or trade bait to get him. The leagues are not the same. Elite NFL players don't have the same power as NBA players do. This is not debatable.

[nighthob]

The top 12 players in the NBA can almost always decide where they want to play after their first extension expires (Melo to NY for example).

You understand that the top 12 players in the NFL can also play wherever they want once they hit free agency by virtue of the fact that nearly every team has cap space every summer due to the fact that they aren't required to carry deadweight contracts, right?

The NFL (besides the QB position) doesn't work like that. The Patriots aren't going to spend a ton of money on a player that doesn't fit their system. Lesean McCoy wouldn't make sense for the Patritos at the FA market value he would demand. Clay Mathews wasn't drafted by the Pats because he didn't fit their defensive system.

Not only is this not relevant, this is you stating your opinion as fact.

[Super Nomario]

You have a very weak grasp of the laws of supply and demand. Due to the greater supply of jobs NFL players have more ability to choose their playing locales, and partially because the contracts aren't guaranteed (because NFL teams suffer a much smaller penalty for cutting players football players get more shots at free agency than basketball ones).

Supply and demand doesn't really enter into it; the elite talents have individual caps on their salary. The NFL has a hard cap, true, but the Pats could still decide to offer Rodney Harrison more money than anyone else was willing to; they would just have to scrimp on the cap elsewhere. They can't do that with Dwight Howard; he's going to make the same amount of money anywhere he goes, except for staying in Orlando.

I guess yours is v3.0 of the same lame excuse, "Because there are only one third as many jobs players are freer to go where they want!!!!"

No, they're not. They're limited by what teams have the available cap space to spend on those rare instances that they hit free agency. Because NBA deals are guaranteed players are rarely waived until the last year or two of their contract when they can be bought out inexpensively. That might change a little with the new buyout rules (that you can spread the cap hit out over twice the remaining years +1), but it doesn't change the fact that there's nearly always a limited pool of teams with the available cap space to spend, and some of those are in quality of life locales far worse. Like Detroit. Boston isn't a war zone the last time I checked.

I completely agree with this; the C's need to be planning to have cap space available so they have a shot at an elite free agent, and they need to do everything they can to maximize the appeal of playing in Boston for the Celtics. You're right that they are a better opportunity than a number of places; I would think that Boston would be largely perceived as a place with definite advantages and disadvantages and an individual's outlook would depend on how it matches up with his preferences and values. It's not in the Minnesota / Milwaukee / Cleveland "no one would sign here" group, but it's not in the LA / Miami / Dallas / New York class either. I would think it would be behind Atlanta for most players (which was my initial point).

[Brickowski]

Atlanta (where I travelled on business for years) may be the most boring city in the western hemisphere. They roll the sidewalks up at 6:00 pm. Plus, Black players have to deal with the rednecks when they venture outside Black or integrated neighborhoods.

I can see why a Black player might prefer LA, NY, DC, Miami or Chicago. But Atlanta? Maybe Dwight Howard is a special case because he grew up there. But the city itself his very little to recommend it as opposed to a city like Boston.

[dolomite133]

If we can't land a player like Dwight Howard or even Marc Gasol over the next couple of years, we will be irrelevant for a while. Everything we do should be geared towards securing that centerpiece player. What we do starting this week and ending the start of camp next season will determine whether the Celtics will remain in the upper tier or sink into what I call Raptor-ville.

[nighthob]

Supply and demand doesn't really enter into it; the elite talents have individual caps on their salary. The NFL has a hard cap, true, but the Pats could still decide to offer Rodney Harrison more money than anyone else was willing to; they would just have to scrimp on the cap elsewhere. They can't do that with Dwight Howard; he's going to make the same amount of money anywhere he goes, except for staying in Orlando.

Is this the 37th or 38th "yeahbut" in the ongoing quest to save the asinine claim? I've run into so many of them that I've lost track.

African-American players sign with Boston teams. And, no, they don't always demand more money. In fact, during the Belichick era some have been willing to sign here for less than they could have made elsewhere. Why is that? Hint, it's because the Patriots are a perennial contender.

It's not in the Minnesota / Milwaukee / Cleveland "no one would sign here" group, but it's not in the LA / Miami / Dallas / New York class either. I would think it would be behind Atlanta for most players (which was my initial point).

Atlanta is a hellhole. And thanks to the Atnalta Tirips the Hawks are off the free agent market for the next five years or so. They have their centerpieces, and unfortunately for them it's Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Al Horford.

[Super Nomario]

Is this the 37th or 38th "yeahbut" in the ongoing quest to save the asinine claim? I've run into so many of them that I've lost track.

African-American players sign with Boston teams. And, no, they don't always demand more money. In fact, during the Belichick era some have been willing to sign here for less than they could have made elsewhere. Why is that? Hint, it's because the Patriots are a perennial contender.

I'm not sure a) what point you think I'm arguing or b) what point you are arguing. But I am pretty sure you're being a dick.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

All the talk in this thread about whether or not Boston is an attractive free agent destination for Dwight Howard rests on the assumption that he actually reaches free agency. A lot of people assumed that the new CBA would include some sort of provision to help teams hang onto their marquee players and avoid situations like the Carmelo-Knicks trade last year, but that turns out not to be the case. Because of this, if it becomes apparent that Howard and Paul are not staying in Orlando and New Orleans respectively, both clubs will likely look to trade them so as to receive a better compensation package. I think there's a very good chance that both Howard and Paul are moved before they reach free agency, and I don't think the Celtics have the ability to put together a competitive package for Howard. That said, I could see a scenario where New Orleans would take Rondo, Green, and draft picks for Paul.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Boston's a better bet to win a championship in the next couple years, but beyond that things look cloudy. As a place for a 26-year-old African-American male to live, Boston is way behind Atlanta - blue laws, bars that close at 2, cold weather (especially during hoops season), and a reputation for questionable race relations. The C's have a good chance to sign P.J. Brown types looking for a ring, but a Dwight Howard who's going to spend five years here with the prospect of KG, PP, and Ray retiring in a couple seasons? It would be Danny's best sales job yet.

Race relations have been really overblown here, in the past decade how many times has race played any type of role in coming here?

Cold weather? NYC has just as cold of winters, again I don't feel this is much of a factor

If you want to sign a guy that just wants to party all the time, then sure Atlanta might be a better place. Except for the fact that Miami and LA have better things to offer than Atlanta. Atlanta is not a preferred destination just because of race, if that was the case why is Josh Smith trying to get out of there...ironically enough a rumor broke before the lockout that he wanted to come to...Boston.

[Tyrone Biggums]

True, this is why black players have adamantly refused to sign with the New England Patriots. Because in a league with a hard cap, all that matters is quality of life.

Ummm...this might be the most baseless post ever put on SOSH. You do realize that a lot of players have preferred to play in New England...right?

Times have changed, to keep holding this stupid race card up is very annoying.

Edited by Tyrone Biggums, 28 November 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[radsoxfan]

This is an irrlevant tangent but you are out of your mind if you think that's true. I've lived in LA for the last 2 years and the women out here aren't even on the same planet as Boston women, and Miami women are even better looking than LA women!

Agreed.

In a thread of increasingly tangential and baseless statements, claiming the women of Boston are equal to Miami or LA is easily the most absurd. I had to read it 3 times before I even realized what had just been said.

With that though.....let's try to keep this at least sort of on the topic of the roster itself. If people want to argue about more generalized differences between the NFL and NBA, or Boston and other cities, maybe we should break out a new thread.

[Brickowski]

Err... I'll stick by that claim-- that the women in Boston are just as pretty as a percentage of the population-- given the co-eds who come to Boston (and vicinity) every year. They just wear more clothes, since the weather is colder. Obviously Boston is smaller than NY or LA.


But it matters little if I'm right or wrong. Race-- or the proportion of good looking women-- are not significant factors in determining where free agents decide to go. The significant factor is money in most cases.

Edited by Brickowski, 28 November 2011 - 09:15 PM.

[soxfan121]

Why do people think Allen Iverson has anything at all in the tank, out of curiosity?

Same reason there's a thread for TO in BBTL and cries for the return of Randy Moss every time the Pats don't score 30+ points - because people are stupid.

That said, I'm stupid too, as I think AI for the veteran minimum would be a great fit for this Celtics game. Maybe he has 4 or 5 "old AI" games and carries the Celtics through the 2nd game of a back-to-back. Of all the players available and affordable, he's the one guy you can claim has "take-over-the-game" talent (or did) and might be ready to sublimate his ego to ride shotgun on the last ride of the New Big 3.

In any case, AI has to be a better option than TJ Fucking Ford, even if AI has no pulse, is stiff and cold.

[Rudy Pemberton]

If we can't land a player like Dwight Howard or even Marc Gasol over the next couple of years, we will be irrelevant for a while. Everything we do should be geared towards securing that centerpiece player. What we do starting this week and ending the start of camp next season will determine whether the Celtics will remain in the upper tier or sink into what I call Raptor-ville.

I've been reading this same post on SOSH for three straight off seasons, and while I guess it's factually correct since the C's haven't won a title during that time, how do you propose the team acquire a centerpiece player? What do you possibly think they could get for Allen and Davis? There seems to b a constant perception that the Celtics are getting so much worse and everyone else so much better and I think it's mostly overrated. It's the same mentality that suggested the Patriots were doomed to go no better than 9-7 after they lost to the Giants.

[dolomite133]

I've been reading this same post on SOSH for three straight off seasons, and while I guess it's factually correct since the C's haven't won a title during that time, how do you propose the team acquire a centerpiece player? What do you possibly think they could get for Allen and Davis? There seems to b a constant perception that the Celtics are getting so much worse and everyone else so much better and I think it's mostly overrated. It's the same mentality that suggested the Patriots were doomed to go no better than 9-7 after they lost to the Giants.

Three straight seasons? I'm pretty sure that's not true. We won a title when the big three arrived, were set back by injuries in year two, and made it to the finals again in year three. The calls to rebuild didn't really gain steam until summer 2010. That's because lots of us realized the window was closing and something needed to be done. Unfortunately it looks like Danny, Wyc, et. al. are content to ride the big three into the ground and then hope for the best.

[Rudy Pemberton]

What's the alternative? Tell me how to acquire a centerpiece player.

The calls to rebuild began in 09, as many said Garnett would never be good again, they gained steam in the middle of 2010, when many suggested Allen had to be traded because the C's were not contenders. Don't recall who folks wanted him traded for, but of course, they then made it to game 7 of the finals.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 28 November 2011 - 10:01 PM.

[Sprowl]

Three straight seasons? I'm pretty sure that's not true. We won a title when the big three arrived, were set back by injuries in year two, and made it to the finals again in year three. The calls to rebuild didn't really gain steam until summer 2010. That's because lots of us realized the window was closing and something needed to be done. Unfortunately it looks like Danny, Wyc, et. al. are content to ride the big three into the ground and then hope for the best.

The Celtics front office is willing to ride the big three through the end of 2012, when the contracts of Allen and Garnett expire. This is the last year of the Big Three Big Picture, and you want it to throw in the towel a year early -- for what exactly? What centerpiece player do you think the Celtics could get for Allen and Garnett? Because I'm not seeing any great opportunities out there, nor reading them in here.

If the Celtics do throw in the towel, they will do so at the trading deadline if there is a real contender that needs only a veteran sharpshooter or a brainy defensive captain and complementary offensive player. Until then, the Celtics need young, durable complementary players that can take up the minutes in a compressed regular season.

If the Celtics have to rebuild around Rondo and Green, then they are indeed in Raptorville. Neither one is a franchise player, and if they blow it up by breaking up the Big Three, they would be better off trading both Rondo and Green as well.

[nighthob]

Ummm...this might be the most baseless post ever put on SOSH. You do realize that a lot of players have preferred to play in New England...right?

Times have changed, to keep holding this stupid race card up is very annoying.

I think your sarcasm detector is on the fritz.

[funkyriddim]

Wow, did not mean to start such a flame war with the race/FA discussion. Let me clarify a couple points I haphazardly made earlier on.

Can we please dispense with this myth? How tough has it been for the Patriots to sign free agents of any color this past decade? And sign them to play in an outdoor facility in what is, frankly, a corner of the Arctic Circle once January arrives? How tough has it been for the Red Sox to sign free agents of any background? Garnett balked at first not because of "race relations" but because in the original trade the Boston Celtics would have consisted of Garnett, Pierce, Perkins, Rondo and a player he despised (Szczerbiak). In the first version of the trade the rest of the roster was headed to Minnesota and Garnett didn't believe that what was left had a shot at a title. What changed his mind was Boston's unloading of Szczerbiak and replacing him with one of his oldest friends in the NBA. Because then Boston had a chance at a title. And with any proposed free agent that's all that's going to matter, the cash and the chance to win. The reason that the team won't be on anyone's radar at the moment is that as constructed it has about a zero percent chance of beating Chicago or Miami in the postseason.

As Nighthob eloquently laid out in his best impression of a confrontational second year law student, yes, the Garnett motivations were different than just race. I did not bring my A game to that post, and I apologize to the SOSH gods for bringing that weak stuff around.


But.


Garnett was in his thirties and looking to contend. What I didn't do a good job of outlining was how Boston stands as a destination for big ticket franchise players. Most big ticket FA's you would be going after are in their mid-twenties and have different motivations than a Garnett at the tail end of his career. Look at how the LeBron thing played out. Seeing as we are in the global "LeBron brand" era, NY and LA and always going to have a huge advantage in terms of recruiting big ticket free agents regardless of race. For chirssakes, part of Melo's motivation to force a trade to NY was that he wanted his wife to have a launching point for her fashion line or reality show or whatever the hell she's into now. Like another poster mentioned, Boston isn't Minnesota or Indiana, but it sure as hell isn't LA or New York either. In terms of Atlanta, maybe ten years ago I would have been right, but I should not have included that city in my original post, that city's glory days are over. Also, with regards to the "race card", it' isn't as simple as Boston=racist place that black dudes don't want to play in. It's a variety of factors that make those cities more desirable for big-ticket free agents. But (and this is the last thing I'm going to say about Boston's racial makeup on this thread), speaking as someone who works in Mattapan and Dorchester five days a week, maybe Boston isn't perceived as a racist pit, but the city and nightlife sure aren't as integrated or vibrant as the big market towns I mentioned.


So, working off the assumption that Boston isn't going to have a great chance of wooing a CP3 or Dwight Howard type free agent going forward, how do we get the type of players to build around? Without digging into it too much, the only franchise player who comes to mind that wasn't a top 5 pick in the draft is Kobe, and he was drafted at a time that high school prospects were evaluated completely differently. Not only do you have to tank, but it has to be during a year like 2003 in a draft loaded with clear-cut franchise players. As for building around Rondo, yes I agree, Rondo as your centerpiece is Raptorville, or more accurately, Hornetsville the last 5 years. But he is the only guy I can see as a part of a contending team going forward with the exception of Green on an extremely team-friendly deal. I don't think you trade Rondo unless you get a top 15 player/surefire Lebron/Melo type-stud draft pick somehow. He's one year into a very team-friendly deal and still hasn't hit his full potential as a player. He is part of the solution going forward, not the problem. I don't see the Celtics getting a franchise guy through FA, and going back to the Pitino-era suckitude and taking your chances in the draft isn't a bet I, or ownership, would like to take.


I don't see a clear picture as to what Danny needs to do going forward to make this team a contender after this year. I do think that loading up on bad contracts this year is a bad idea. I think they have a shot this year if Danny can maneuver to get the right type of spare complementary parts. Bring back West and Green if you can, but other than that good riddance to the rest of the bench. I don't see Baby back, the front office and coaching staff aren't exactly big fans of his after the second half of last year. Maybe a cheap one year deal, but if he gets anything more on the open market he's gone. Seeing as Danny has constructed the team over the past three years, I don't see him committing big money to anybody that isn't a building block for the future. I like Chuck Hayes on a one year deal, Barea isn't happening after his stellar postseason.


In terms of free agent big men, I can assure you that he will not chew up cap room signing a big Nighthob. You really want to make a significant cap commitment to the chubby Gasol brother or relatively unproven DeAndre Jordan?

Anyways, the Celtics going forward are an interesting question, not one with any clear answers jumping out. It's great to speculate about it, and the one thing I know for sure that that Danny is one of the few guys in the league I would have faith in to make this work going forward.

Edited by funkyriddim, 29 November 2011 - 02:03 AM.

[SoxScout]

While Boston is not shopping Rajon Rondo, it would be open to trading him in the right deal, sources say. The Celtics feel they need more scoring to take the load off of Paul Pierce.

http://espn.go.com/b...new-yorks-hopes