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Who is the next pitching coach?


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#1 TheoShmeo


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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:55 AM

OK, I get it, the Sox need to pick a manager first. The manager will invariably have a lot to say about who the pitching coach is. As often happens, they may pick someone who he has worked with before or has a relationship with.

Still, as the manager process moves along, it's worth thinking about who the next pitching coach will be.

Nick Cafardo mentioned Dave Wallace, Bob McClure and Rick Peterson in his notes column today. I'd include the obligatory rip on Cafardo more readily if not for the fact that he seems to have gotten it right on Valentine.

Is Dave Duncan a possibility? Are there other older pitching coaches who are currently out of work? Is Gary Tuck in the running?

Who are the candidates? Who does SoSH want in that position? Are the three guys who Cafardo mentioned viable and good candidates?

Edited by TheoShmeo, 20 November 2011 - 10:56 AM.


#2 BosRedSox5


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Posted 20 November 2011 - 11:02 AM

The next pitching coach will be almost totally dependent on who the manager picks. I don't see the point in tossing around names until the manager is selected. It's kind of like wondering who the next defensive coordinator will be before the coach is named.

#3 SMU_Sox


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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:11 PM

The next pitching coach will be almost totally dependent on who the manager picks. I don't see the point in tossing around names until the manager is selected. It's kind of like wondering who the next defensive coordinator will be before the coach is named.



I disagree. Unless you really know the manager, how do you know who he would want and wouldn't want as a pitching coach? Is there any evidence that some of the coaches TheoShmeo named are incompatible with any of the Sox candidates? If so that would be news to me. Some pitching coaches might have a better relationship already with a potential Sox manager, but how important will that be? To answer the questions here. Dave Duncan is still under contract. There have been rumors that he has been upset with St. Louis for a few years now. His style of coaching is interesting. All the starting pitchers (and it might be all the pitchers, I am not sure) throw together, or during the regular season throw in the presence of the rest of the staff. Each starter knows the other starters' stuff and mechanics. This way even if Duncan misses something the other pitchers can pick up on it.

#4 Green Monster

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 09:55 PM

I am gonna throw Rick Peterson's name out there....seems like he might be on the cutting edge with 3P Sports. If any of his work can translate into healthier pitchers, it would be a huge addition. The following site says he is currently the pitching coach of the Brewers however, the Brewers site list Rich Kranitz, so I am assuming he is available.

http://3psports.com/.../rick-peterson/

From Wikipedia:
In January 2009, Peterson along with Jim Duquette and other business partners launched 3P Sports. 3P Sports combined Peterson's coaching philosophies for conditioning, pitching drills and sports psychology with biomechanical analysis data using the work done by Dr. James Andrew's American Sports Medicine Institute ASMI as the benchmark. The 3P Program helps pitchers of all ages achieve peak pitching performance while remaining healthy. .......................On October 19, 2009, Peterson agreed to become the Milwaukee Brewers new pitching coach. However, when new manager Ron Roenicke's 2011 staff was announced on November 15, 2010, it was revealed that Peterson had been replaced by Rick Kranitz with a year remaining on his contract.


Interesting Article about Peterson's perspectives on several pitching topics:
http://fullcountpitc...-rick-peterson/

Edited by Green Monster, 20 November 2011 - 10:34 PM.


#5 RedOctober3829


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 02:25 PM

So, now that Bobby V is in the fold who does he hire to be the pitching coach?

#6 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 03:01 PM

Bobby V's pitching coach with the Mets was Bob Apodaca, who is now the Rockies pitching coach, Dave Wallace, and then Charlie Hough. Randy Niemann was around for much of the time too, as bullpen coach. Can't figure out where he is now. Peterson never worked with Valentine with the Mets. Have to expect that the hire will not be a current MLB pitching coach, too late for that.

I'm more curious as to whether Bobby will choose Mookie Wilson as his 1B coach. Wilson was his 1B coach with the Mets, and appears to be unemployed.

#7 Hee-Seop's Fable

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 03:47 PM

Is Hershiser a real possibility? With his focus on core strength and his experience with Texas and with Valentine he's intriguing.

Dave Wallace seems like someone who could glue Valentine together with the current regime, if he's healthy enough (he's 64, no signs of any further issues with his hip) and Atlanta lets him go from his current position as minor league pitching coordinator.

#8 jacklamabe65


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

I hear from a Stamford friend of his that Bobby is seriously considering Billy Buckner, his best friend in baseball, as his bench coach if Demarlo actually signs with the Orioles.

Edited by jacklamabe65, 01 December 2011 - 04:15 PM.


#9 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 04:23 PM

Mookie at first base coach, Buckner bench coach, Bogar still at third, sounds awesome.

Fox broadcasts would be more unbearable to watch than they already are, then they would actually have a reason to show the Buckner play every time the Sox play on Fox.

Can we get Mike Torrez as pitching coach too? Or how about Roger Clemens, he'd be a nice fit with what we're building here.

#10 E5 Yaz


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 04:25 PM

I hear from a Stamford friend of his that Bobby is seriously considering Billy Buckner, his best friend in baseball, as his bench coach if Demarlo actually signs with the Orioles.


Better that than as 1B coach ... hate for a foul ball to go thru his legs

#11 RedOctober3829


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:32 PM

@JackCurryYES


Valentine reached out to Cone about Red Sox pitching coach job. While Cone was flattered, its not expected to happen.

http://twitter.com/J...414567732035584

#12 OBPercent1

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:34 PM

I'm going with Dave Wallace

#13 bosockboy


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:46 PM

With Valentine on a 2 year leash, Wallace makes a ton of sense.

I admit I'm intrigued by the Buckner possibility.

#14 Van Everyman


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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:45 PM

Rosenthal:

Sources: #Orioles interviewed Rick Peterson today for minor-league pitching coordinator. He's also in mix for #RedSox major-league job. #MLB



#15 MartyBarrettMVP

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:27 PM

Edes:

On the twitter machine:

Industry source: Rockies pitching coach Bob Apodaca not a candidate for Sox pitching coach. Neither is Rick Peterson.


Edes chimes in again:

To clarify, Rick Peterson on list but longshot for Sox pitching coach job. One name to watch: Bob McClure, ex-Royals p coach, Sox scout


Edited by MartyBarrettMVP, 05 December 2011 - 07:38 PM.


#16 AZBlue

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:14 PM

How could the Red Sox NOT be interested in Dave Duncan? He has rehabilitated the careers of several former Red Sox pitchers.

#17 jsinger121


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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:16 PM

How could the Red Sox NOT be interested in Dave Duncan? He has rehabilitated the careers of several former Red Sox pitchers.


He's under contract for 1 more year by St. Louis who likely won't let him go.

#18 bosockboy


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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:24 PM

He's under contract for 1 more year by St. Louis who likely won't let him go.


Exactly....he's not available. His wife also has cancer; I doubt he's up for any upheaval and a new challenge right now.

#19 MartyBarrettMVP

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 10:19 PM

Not sure where to put this but Bogar's back:

Edes: Hale out, Bogar and Tuck coming back

DeMarlo Hale out as Sox bench coach, Tuck, Bogar join Magadan in returning, according to MLB source



#20 jacklamabe65


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Posted 07 December 2011 - 04:31 AM

Not sure where to put this but Bogar's back:

Edes: Hale out, Bogar and Tuck coming back


If Hale is out, does that mean that Bobby v. gets his wish and that Bill Buchner will be added to the staff?

#21 Kid T

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:53 PM

If Hale is out, does that mean that Bobby v. gets his wish and that Bill Buchner will be added to the staff?

I think I read that RS Ownership was "resistant" to that idea. ESPN Boston (Edes) reporting that Bobby V. would like Jerry Royster, but needs to wait for Cherington to interview him first.

#22 TheGoldenGreek33

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:44 PM

The Red Sox have interviewed Brad Arnsberg and Neil Allen about the vacant pitching coach job and also talked to "several" other candidates.


link

Arnsberg was most recently the Astros pitching coach in 2010-2011. Allen has been the pitching coach of the Rays AAA affiliate since 2007.

Both would be fine replacements.

#23 Resonance Wright


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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

I'm just waiting for someone to say 'Jason Varitek', and making sure I'm not standing next to anything that's flammable.

#24 TheYellowDart5


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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:14 PM

I'm just waiting for someone to say 'Jason Varitek', and making sure I'm not standing next to anything that's flammable.

Man, Varitek as pitching coach would be hysterical.

"Josh, what's wrong out there?"
"Can't seem to put anyone away, Jason."
"Hm. Okay, have you tried throwing your fastball nonstop?"
"Yeah, first thing I thought of."
"Okay, well ... I'm out of ideas."

#25 kieckeredinthehead

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:16 PM

Man, Varitek as pitching coach would be hysterical.

"Josh, what's wrong out there?"
"Can't seem to put anyone away, Jason."
"Hm. Okay, have you tried throwing your fastball nonstop?"
"Yeah, first thing I thought of."
"Okay, well ... I'm out of ideas."


"Actually, here's a thought: can you tell Salty to stand up a little more? Like, really just stand up and hold his glove right around the batter's head."

#26 rembrat


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:06 PM

Rob Bradford
#BobbyVonWEEI - said they've decided on pitching coach but need to iron out contract

Link

Who could it be?

#27 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:19 PM

What kind of interviewer couldn't get Bobby V to give it away?!? For god's sake, it's child's play. Appeal to his vanity.

#28 bosockboy


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:45 PM

Pretty sure its Neil Allen.

#29 Trlicek's Whip

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:53 PM

I like that Bradford inadvertently named our new manager Bobby Von WEEI.

#30 bosockboy


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 01:57 PM

Pretty sure its Neil Allen.

Abraham says no....anybody's guess. Arnsberg?

Edited by bosockboy, 21 December 2011 - 03:45 PM.


#31 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 03:26 PM

Allen would be an interesting choice in light of the beer-in-the-dugout issues.

#32 jacklamabe65


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:00 PM

In Old Hickory's latest tweet, he basically names Bob McClure as the next pitching coach...

Red Sox still looking @starting P. Reluctant pass on Reed Johnson, no Cordero. Believe Bob McClure right person and teacher for this staff.



#33 Corsi


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:14 PM

But for real, Gammons is alluding to the Sox hiring McClure for some sort of "hybrid role" position.

http://www.nesn.com/...ybrid-role.html

#34 SoxScout


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:43 PM

Well, watching the Royals pitchers development and abuse (Meche) over the last few years, awesome!

Edit: Interview

DL: You worked with Brian Bannister. How would you describe his thought process?

BM: Banny went overboard. The first year I had him, he was very successful. We worked a lot on command. We’d do two bullpen sessions between his starts instead of one, which is something I’ve done with a lot of young starters to help them repeat their delivery. Instead of throwing 35 or 40 pitches in one bullpen session, we’ll throw 20 [each] in two sessions.

Banny had a heck of a year [in 2007], but it got in his head that the way he was pitching wasn’t good enough. You’re talking about a guy who was third or fourth in Rookie of the Year voting and who won 12 games. He said, “I’m giving up too many fly balls.” I said, “Yeah, but they’re mis-hitting them, because you have deception and because of the way your pitches come in.”

He tried to get guys to do this and do that. He got into the rotation of the baseball. He got into where hitters hit their extra-base hits and what the best pitches are to throw to them. He started subscribing to all of that and getting into the terminology. I mean, he’s a very bright kid; he went to Stanford. He got into things like how the ball was turning, and to me, it’s not that complicated.

As a pitcher, what I’m trying to do is keep you off balance just enough, and locate my pitches. I’m trying to get ahead in the count, keep you off balance, and make pitches. That’s all I’m trying to do. I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that. The first three pitches are the most important ones you throw. If you can get to 1-2 on three quarters of the batters you face, you’re probably going to have a good game.

Banny got a little overboard and tried to do more than he was capable of doing. The next thing you know, his walks go up and his hits go up. He’s trying to sink the ball instead of what he was doing in the first place, which was commanding his fastball and his cutter. It kind of turned into a mess.

Banny was convicted in what he was doing and I don’t think anyone was going to change his mind. Now, that being said, I think that if he was 100-percent healthy… he had some very good points in wanting to sink the ball a little bit and get the ball on the ground a little more. He could maybe not take as many pitches to put a hitter away by getting them to hit it on the ground. He had some very good points, it’s just that we’re dealing with someone whose shoulder, here and there… as far as health, at times it was difficult to do enough work in order for him to get where he wanted to be.

DL: In a more general sense, what is your opinion of using data when working with pitchers?

BM: It depends on what kind of data. I think that makeup… where is the data on makeup? Where is the data on a guy being able to throw the ball real slow in a situation where there are 40,000 fans yelling at you, with the bases loaded on a 3-2 count? That takes feel, conviction, and an understanding of how to pitch.


Edited by SoxScout, 21 December 2011 - 08:51 PM.


#35 rembrat


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:10 PM

Oh sweet Jesus, this shit gets worse by the day.

#36 Green Monster

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:17 PM

According to Jim Bowden of ESPN and Sirius XM Radio, Bob McClure will be the Red Sox' next pitching coach.
McClure was a major league pitcher for 19 seasons (1975-1993) before moving into the coaching profession in 1999 with the Rockies. He most recently served as the Royals' pitching coach, but was let go in September of this year after six years on the job. McClure will be tasked with righting a Boston pitching staff that posted a 22nd-ranked 4.20 team ERA in 2011.

https://twitter.com/#!/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/149661568861356032 mabrowndog is a dingus

#37 Rough Carrigan


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:18 PM

I'd like to believe that McClure was opposed to the way Trey Hillman stupidly abused Gil Meche. If not, his perspective is the sort of backward attitude that we all thought the Sox opposed.

#38 rembrat


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:31 PM

I'd like to believe that McClure was opposed to the way Trey Hillman stupidly abused Gil Meche. If not, his perspective is the sort of backward attitude that we all thought the Sox opposed.

I have this crazy theory that the princple owners got together and decided since a big portion of MLB dabbles in SABR shit that the pendulum should shift in the opposite direction.

Then you get shit like Bobby Valentine managing, Ben talking about players who care and then signing Nick Punto, and McClure preaching about a pitchers make up.

#39 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:35 PM

Read, then weep.

http://joeposnanski....with-sasquatch/

This guy played a major part in the complete destruction of Gil Meche's career.

#40 TheYellowDart5


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:40 PM

To be fair to McClure, he never said pitching statistics, basic or advanced, are a crock of shit or that he doesn't believe in them or that SABR folks are stupidheads. He only said that part of what matters to him is a pitcher's makeup/mental toughness, and I think we can all agree that that is kind of important. That he couched it in the dismissive "where's the stat for heart" language of the anti-SABR crowd is discouraging, but I'd like to think this organization wouldn't bother with someone who valued only wins, losses and ERA.

If we do want something to whine about, his work with Meche (along with that of Hillman and Dayton Moore) is far more concerning, especially given the workload that Lester took on last season and the seeming fragility of Buchholz and (occasionally) Beckett. Those three need to be in tip-top shape for the Red Sox to have any hope of contention, and hiring a pitching coach with a bad overwork incident in his past isn't a good sign.

#41 Green Monster

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:14 PM

What could possibly go wrong with Bard moving to the rotation?

#42 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:39 PM

I have this crazy theory that the princple owners got together and decided since a big portion of MLB dabbles in SABR shit that the pendulum should shift in the opposite direction.

So, statistical illiteracy is now undervalued in the market? This is the new Moneyball tack?

#43 rembrat


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 10:47 PM

So, statistical illiteracy is now undervalued in the market? This is the new Moneyball tack?

No, more emphasis on scouting instead of stats seems like the logical step since everyone knows about OBA and WAR.

#44 OttoC


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:17 PM

What could possibly go wrong with Bard moving to the rotation?

He could fail to improve on his lifetime .278 winning percentage?

#45 Van Everyman


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:50 PM

Read, then weep.

http://joeposnanski....with-sasquatch/

This guy played a major part in the complete destruction of Gil Meche's career.

Well, hey -- one of the guys Meche got out in that start was Nick Punto. So there's that.

But seriously -- to Rembrat's point, I think the issue is this:

We all know that things got out of hand last year. Guys goofed off. Guys didn't take their responsibilities seriously. Players let little nicks keep them from playing. The character of the team left something to be desired. .

I like the shake-things-up-a-little/make-'em-squirm aspect of this offseason. I am totally with tweaking around the edges in terms of roster, as opposed to wholesale changes. And I'm in agreement that scouting is an undervalued commodity in this market.

But at what point do you worry they are over correcting from a philosophical standpoint? I get that with Tito's contract situation and Theo having only one year left that the time was right for some changes. But this was a team that has made the playoffs 6 times in 8 years and won 90 games despite one of the worst Septembers in history. For the same reason you don't, say, trade Josh Beckett, you don't replace your organizational philosophy.

Part of me wonders if they are building a roster using stats and data but managing and coaching them with guys like McClure who act more on instinct and feel -- with Punto-types as sort of the glue holding it together. Yes, it could end up being Grady 2.0 -- but it could also be an interesting experiment on getting the most out of their talent.

That's what I keep telling myself anyway.

#46 BucketOBalls


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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:57 PM

Does anyone else feel like they are rooting for a completely different organization than they were last march? I hope he introduces him self with "Hi, I'm Bobby McClure, you may remember me as pitching coach from various terrible Royals teams..."

So, this guy basically has no concept of how to prepare pichers for the postseason?

#47 Harry Hooper


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:04 AM

Again, very few talented pitching coaches can be recruited by a new manager with a 2-year contract, especially in a market like this one.

#48 SumnerH


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:22 AM

We all know that things got out of hand last year. Guys goofed off. Guys didn't take their responsibilities seriously. Players let little nicks keep them from playing. The character of the team left something to be desired. .

I like the shake-things-up-a-little/make-'em-squirm aspect of this offseason.


I hate it. We absolutely don't "know" the things you're saying that we all know. We know that this team had the talent to be the best team in baseball over a 130+ game stretch. We know that for some reason they underperformed wildly over the last 30 games.

We also know that human beings tend to make narratives ("They drink beer in the dugout", "they don't want it enough", "Francona is too nice", etc) to explain random statistical variance. We also make narratives that are accurate. But we know from Bill James and others that pretty huge random swings happen--and not ridiculously uncommonly--for no reason at all.

So, it's possible that a trio of pitcher's sullenness blew the season. But it's equally likely--perhaps even more likely--that September was simply hard luck. And the revisionist tendency to write it out as "We all KNOW that things got out of hand", that goofing off was a real problem, that the issue absolutely HAD to be bad character or little nicks affecting our "wussy" players, rather than just a randomly down September---that's a big issue to me. It inspires you to make huge changes when they really may not be warranted, and inspires you to say "I'm not sure what's right, but shaking things up/making people squirm is obviously a good thing" when the truth is that we don't know that.

Indeed, even the "they drank and were loosey-goosey" thing is only spun after the fact. The 2004 team was lauded for doing a shot of Jack before the game, for being idiots who didn't take things too seriously and consequently didn't let the pressure get to them. Even if we stipulate that people weren't all workaholics and sometimes unwound early in the day, we don't KNOW that that hurt the on-field performance--that's a narrative that the press and fans write post facto, and there's no evidence that the narrative is really illustrative of anything that legitimately affected performance. It just makes us feel better about the script.

Really, given what we KNOW--results-wise--I'd rather go into this spring with exactly the team we had going into last spring than with a team randomly shaken up for weird armchair psychology/"something has to change" reasons. Obviously that can't happen--even before any decisions were made, players are older, contracts are a year later, etc, and obviously Theo and Tito are now gone--but the unmitigated belief that a team that was on pace for over 100 wins into early September is clearly and obviously in need of massive random shakeups seems completely bizarre to me.

Edited by SumnerH, 22 December 2011 - 12:28 AM.


#49 greek_gawd_of_walks


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 02:37 AM

This quote was taken from the interview SoxScout posted.

Where is the data on a guy being able to throw the ball real slow in a situation where there are 40,000 fans yelling at you, with the bases loaded on a 3-2 count? That takes feel, conviction, and an understanding of how to pitch.


I understand what McClure's saying here. I do. But he sounds like a goddamn moron. "Throw the ball real slow"? You mean a change up? Curve? This kind of response is color commentary-worthy. I understand the idea of having a feel for the game, but the way McClure goes about describing pitching would be like Picasso saying "Yeah, I brush these oil colors on a canvas and there you go". The only way he sounds less intelligent in baseball terms is if he has the voice of Grady Little with Benny Hill music going along with his description.

He probably doesn't vehemently avoid SABR or statistical analysis (would the Sox OK a pitching coach who wasn't at least partial to the SABR school of thought?), but this response does show some resistance, doesn't it?

As many have said, the way he oversaw the mangling of Gil Meche is something to worry about more than his pro- intangible "heart" stance. I wouldn't anticipate an abortion like that, but the fact that it happened in the past makes me leery.

Edited by greek_gawd_of_walks, 22 December 2011 - 02:41 AM.


#50 geoduck no quahog

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 04:29 AM

Man has this board gone negative over the last month. The professionals who run this team are morons to too many people here. Lighten up.

How's this for stats?

W-L in 2012...

My opinion is that baseball is an absolutely unique sport given the number of games played and how important it is that a team work together over the course of a very long season. If Nick Punto brings leadership or humor to the clubhouse - so be it. If Bob McClure treats pitchers as humans (or athletes) rather than input devices for computers - so be it.

Does anyone think McClure is not an upgrade from Curt Young? Or is any less a coach than Duncan unacceptable...

The Red Sox had the 22nd-rated ERA in baseball last year. I don't know how that equalizes out with all the variables, but I for one am willing to accept that a lot of research went into the choice of a pitching coach and that McClure represents both an upgrade and the best available candidate for the team. The only thing that would change my opinion is if I found out that salary had something to do with the choice.

The staff needs a mild shake-up and the catchers need some tutoring.

I'm open to others on the board bringing up evidence that McClure is the wrong choice (like his alleged wrecking of pitchers), but too many people seem to be down on everything the Sox are doing this offseason.




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