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Who will be our primary RF next season?


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Poll: Who will be our primary RF next season? (215 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will be our primary RF next season?

  1. Carlos Beltran (5 votes [2.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.34%

  2. Josh Willingham (4 votes [1.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.87%

  3. Michael Cuddyer (24 votes [11.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.21%

  4. Grady Sizemore (11 votes [5.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.14%

  5. Josh Reddick (30 votes [14.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.02%

  6. Ryan Kalish (55 votes [25.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.70%

  7. Reddick and Kalish will play a similar number of games (52 votes [24.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.30%

  8. Someone we trade for (22 votes [10.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.28%

  9. Other FA less than $4M per year (8 votes [3.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.74%

  10. Other FA greater than $4M per year (3 votes [1.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.40%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 SoxScout


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:15 AM

Let's take SoSH's temperature to see if we think Cherington is heading in one direction or another in RF in 2012.

#2 Rasputin


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:18 AM

Whoever wins the Reddick/Kalish fight. My guess is Kalish but it's pretty much a coin flip in my mind.

#3 mikeford


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:19 AM

I think it's probably going to be Kalish. However, and this wasn't an option on the poll, I think it is also likely that it might be a split job between him and Michael Cuddyer, with the rest of Cuddyer's starts coming at DH.

Or at least, that's my hope anyway.

#4 bgo544

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:22 AM

Whoever wins the Reddick/Kalish fight. My guess is Kalish but it's pretty much a coin flip in my mind.


I think ultimately, Kalish wins the battle. Just not sure if it happens this year, since (1) Kalish is returning from a serious injury, and (2) the initial bias may slant towards Reddick based on last year's performance, so Reddick may end up with more at bats, especially earlier in the season.

#5 OCD SS


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:23 AM

I think it's probably going to be Kalish. However, and this wasn't an option on the poll, I think it is also likely that it might be a split job between him and Michael Cuddyer, with the rest of Cuddyer's starts coming at DH.


I'm thinking the split job approach, but with Beltran.

#6 SoxScout


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

That's why I put primary, I figured if we signed Cuddyer or Beltran, even if they were to split time at DH, you would pick them. Anyways, early on it looks like resources are not expected to be used for RF.

Edited by SoxScout, 01 November 2011 - 10:40 AM.


#7 jacklamabe65


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:44 AM

Grady Sizemore would be incredibly intriguing. Yes, he's somewhat damaged goods, but that would certainly be the most athletic outfield we've had in a while - Crawford, Ellsbury, and Sizemore.

#8 OCD SS


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:16 AM

That's why I put primary, I figured if we signed Cuddyer or Beltran, even if they were to split time at DH, you would pick them. Anyways, early on it looks like resources are not expected to be used for RF.


I actually see Beltran as more the primary DH, playing the field to get Youks some DH rest time and sit the LHH OFer against a tough LHP in favor of Lowrie/ Avilles.

While it's what I'd like, it's not really what I expect; I voted for Kalish in the poll.

#9 Pxer

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:54 AM

Cuddyer, virtually platooning with Reddick/Kalish sounds really nice to me. Some RH pop there would be nice.



#10 lambeau

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:47 PM

For whatever it's worth, ESPN.com says Beltran has left Boras for Pujols' agent, Dan Lozano.

I believe it was Boras thru Heyman who recently advised Pujols to ask for 6/240--hinting that's what he could get him?

Also FWIW, Beltran had one error in RF this year, threw out ten, up for Gold Glove tonight.

Edited by lambeau, 01 November 2011 - 02:13 PM.


#11 Al Zarilla


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 02:46 PM

Cuddyer, virtually platooning with Reddick/Kalish sounds really nice to me. Some RH pop there would be nice.

Sounds good but Cuddyer would probably rather not be platooned, most pitchers being right handed.

Edit, but Cuddyer has played first and third base though. Could they get him enough ABs by having him fill in at those positions? He has also played some 2B, as recently as last year and 17 games. I think he'd be a bit of a comedown from Pedey though. :c070:

Edited by Al Zarilla, 01 November 2011 - 02:51 PM.


#12 dbn

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:00 PM

As I've posted before, I think that RF is the perfect place to go cheap. Opening day should see Reddick starting in RF with McDonald as the 4th OF. Kalish should start in AAA and be called up to start the first time an OF hits the DL.

They need to fill starting positions at RF, DH, SP4, SP5 and closer. Rank these positions in terms of probable "potential free agent" minus "in-house option" production, where "in-house" means people already under contract (so their cost is $0 above the current payroll), which does not include Ortiz, Bedard, Paplebon, etc. Why spend a lot of money to get a little more production out of RF, when they could spend that money to get a lot more production out of DH, starting pitching, and closer?

Also, to forestall the "we need to get more right-handed" argument, we don't. Look up the AL hitting stats for 2011 vs R/LHP. The Red Sox hit both equally well. Considering most starts come against RHP, they don't need to be more RHed.

#13 dbn

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:03 PM

Actually, there is a very possible scenario in which I would retract my above post. If the Red Sox hate the current FA SP market but see someone they'd like to obtain in a trade, and have to use Reddick and/or Kalish as part of the package, then they would likely need to sign someone to play RF.

#14 lambeau

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 03:20 PM

There is so much being written about Cuddyer, Beltran,and Sizemore that either they are planning to put serious money there or they are bluffing Papi.

I'm guessing they are willing to let him walk, get a RF/DH, and rotate DH.

Reddick's split suggests the pitchers have something on him; who knows about Kalish. If one of them comes thru, great.

Anyway they have to soft-pedal the DH angle to the FA's because none of them will sign as a DH--I think you have to tell them they're your RFer. Tricky.

#15 Eric Van


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:32 PM

Reddick's split suggests the pitchers have something on him;

After Kevin Millar opened his stance and went crazy, it took the league just a month to get a new book on him and revert him back to mediocrity. And that was without pitch/fx data to check the results of every pitch, even games you didn't have a scout at. Reddick was white hot for two months, including, near the end, good series vs. Seattle and Tampa Bay, two of the most sabermetrically savvy teams (Tampa has pitch/fx maven Josh Kalk in their F.O.).

Since Reddick was already established as a very streaky guy (and that's entirely sufficient to explain what we saw), the notion that he slumped after July 25 because the league finally figured him out is thus almost silly. And I checked pitch/fx at TexasLeaguers.com and there was no change at all in percentage of pitch type before and after.

He should be able to build on his overall numbers by shortening the length of his bad spell(s), and that should bring him up to average offense for RF. Hopefully that can offset the inevitable regression to the mean on his defense, which was off-the-scale best of any regular RF last year. Average offense, plus or plus-plus defense -- that's a good player.

#16 Sprowl


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:58 PM

He should be able to build on his overall numbers by shortening the length of his bad spell(s), and that should bring him up to average offense for RF. Hopefully that can offset the inevitable regression to the mean on his defense, which was off-the-scale best of any regular RF last year. Average offense, plus or plus-plus defense -- that's a good player.

Josh Reddick has good speed, a great arm, and luscious UZR numbers, but I think it's a stretch to call his defense plus-plus. Toward the end of the season, it wasn't even plus. He showed poor judgment about what base to throw to in what situations, and his glove went clang more than it should. Both of those should improve with maturity and practice, and his arm makes him a good fit in Fenway's RF, but Reddick isn't a complete defender yet.

1) What Reddick had during his hot streak, and then lost, was the ability to lay off low and outside pitches. I think there is hope that he might get that level of discipline back, which may depend on...

2) What he had before 2010, and then lost, were eyeglasses. Did he have laser surgery, or get contact lenses? If he did get a bump, however subtle, in visual acuity, his OBP and non-swing rate could both go up a step.

I agree with dbn that the in-house platoon of Reddick and McDonald in RF is a good way to go cheap, if the Red Sox went to spend their cash on pitching. Willingham, Cuddyer and Sizemore look like defensive liabilities in RF; Beltran looks expensive for a team with a league-leading offense.

#17 Super Nomario


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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:20 PM

After Kevin Millar opened his stance and went crazy, it took the league just a month to get a new book on him and revert him back to mediocrity. And that was without pitch/fx data to check the results of every pitch, even games you didn't have a scout at. Reddick was white hot for two months, including, near the end, good series vs. Seattle and Tampa Bay, two of the most sabermetrically savvy teams (Tampa has pitch/fx maven Josh Kalk in their F.O.).

Since Reddick was already established as a very streaky guy (and that's entirely sufficient to explain what we saw), the notion that he slumped after July 25 because the league finally figured him out is thus almost silly. And I checked pitch/fx at TexasLeaguers.com and there was no change at all in percentage of pitch type before and after.

He should be able to build on his overall numbers by shortening the length of his bad spell(s), and that should bring him up to average offense for RF. Hopefully that can offset the inevitable regression to the mean on his defense, which was off-the-scale best of any regular RF last year. Average offense, plus or plus-plus defense -- that's a good player.

I don't disagree that Reddick has streaky, but is there a precedent for streaky players developing the ability to shorten their bad spells?

The other problem with Reddick is how to consider his minor league performance. He hit .230/.333/.508 in 231 Pawtucket PAs in 2011. That suggests he may have more power than his major-league career has indicated (in 278 PAs with Boston he hit 7 HR, half of his PawSox total) and possibly better plate discipline, but it may also suggest that we missed another "Bad Reddick" streak in Boston.

I think you can run Reddick out there every day, but I think if they do that it should probably be the biggest question mark on the offensive side of the ball (i.e., they should re-sign Ortiz, or acquire a solid 3B and move Youks to DH).

#18 Eric Van


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Posted 02 November 2011 - 01:26 AM

I don't disagree that Reddick has streaky, but is there a precedent for streaky players developing the ability to shorten their bad spells?

Yes, Carlos Pena -- it's almost all the difference between 2003-5 and 2007. And in fact his 2007 was so ridiculous (one 8-game slump, whereas they used to eat up something like 40% of his seasons, IIRC) that a big regression was inevitable; what you would have hoped for, looking at '03-'05, was more like '08-'09. I haven't looked at him subsequently but I would guess that the last two years finally show a skill decline, i.e., cooler hot streaks.

I'm sure there are other guys.

#19 staz


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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

FWIW, Reddick is ripping the ball in Taiwan. Replaying game 2 right now on MLB - his 3rd inning double was a frozen rope that 2-hopped the wall.
Story

#20 Snodgrass'Muff


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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:31 PM

Sizemore is too tantalizing for me to ignore, despite Rocco Baldelli being fresh in my mind. I know there's a better chance he ends up on that end of the spectrum than there is that he bounces back and recaptures his 2008 form, but it's obviously not realistic to grab both him and Cuddyer and have them fight it out for the starting job. In an ideal world (for the Sox FO), Sizemore's health issues depress his value so much that the Sox can get him on a minor league deal with a promise to cut him if he doesn't make the major league roster by June 1st or something, leaving them free to pick up Cuddyer and deal with the crowded outfield if it happens.

More realistically, it probably makes more sense to sign Cuddyer as the starter in RF against left handed pitching and to share the DH duties with Salty, Lavarnway and Youk (spelling him at third once a week or so) and let someone else take the risk. I'd really love to see a healthy and effective Sizemore out there next season (who wouldn't?) but Cuddyer has too much versatility to ignore and his ability to stay healthy while providing a solid bat makes him a smarter move.

I voted for Sizemore, but talked myself out of it while typing this post. Guess I should probably start doing that the other way around.

#21 lambeau

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:04 PM

Cuddyer and Willingham are both Type A and at a first round pick and 3/30 seem very expensive, until DH is decided.


Sizemore and Conor Jackson make an interesting comp. Same age, same peak years '06-'08, same precipitous decline. Same ~.370 OBP--Sizemore had more power and speed.

The speed is gone, and probably the power, and the leg injuries are worrisome. Plus he's left-handed.

Jackson is more of an enigma. Severe coccidiodomycosis in '09, two oblique tears in '10, unclear last year except for disuse and confidence. Can he come back?

I like his chances better than Sizemore, due to the nature of the disabilities.

Plus his handedness is a fit for Kalish/Reddick. As an extreme pull hitter, I would bet he'd hit 30 doubles off the Monster.

Theo liked his intelligence at the plate, and his ability to hang in against tough pitchers. He's 9/28 against Lincecum and 10/22 against Jonathan Sanchez.

Even this year he hit two doubles off CJ Wilson one game, and went 3/4 with a double off Halliday.

In his two best years '07-'08 he was .320/.408/.549 and .315/.446/.492 for an average .948 OPS against LHP--that's quite an upside.

I'd sign him cheap and let him compete in ST.

#22 kazuneko

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:57 PM

With Kalish's torn labrum likely to delay his return until May or June the Sox are currently looking at a McDonald/ Sweeney platoon in RF. As tims4wins pointed out if that duo had platooned with each other last season they would have put up a .350 OBP and a .407 SLG. With good defense from Sweeney that could potentially be a passable pair to slot in an otherwise stacked lineup.
That said, it would be pretty easy to substantially upgrade this platoon by signing Andruw Jones, who ever since his disastrous 2008 season has actually been a pretty good player.
In the past three years (covering 749 AB) Jones has hit .338/.478/816 with solid UZR/150 numbers in RF (21.5, 9.5, 7.3). Throughout that stretch he has killed LHP (.374/.492/.866). McDonald just can't compare. As a hitter -during that same three year period- McDonald put up substantially worse numbers(.322/ .417/ .739 )and defensively he has been rated poorly in RF throughout his time in Boston (UZR/150 of -10.3, and -10.4). Jones would also add some right-handed power to a lineup that could desperately use it. Last year he signed a 1-year deal with the Yanks for $2 million dollars. There would seem to be little downside to signing him if he is willing to sign a similar deal with the Sox..

#23 Toe Nash

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:10 AM

With Kalish's torn labrum likely to delay his return until May or June the Sox are currently looking at a McDonald/ Sweeney platoon in RF. As tims4wins pointed out if that duo had platooned with each other last season they would have put up a .350 OBP and a .407 SLG. With good defense from Sweeney that could potentially be a passable pair to slot in an otherwise stacked lineup.
That said, it would be pretty easy to substantially upgrade this platoon by signing Andruw Jones, who ever since his disastrous 2008 season has actually been a pretty good player.
In the past three years (covering 749 AB) Jones has hit .338/.478/816 with solid UZR/150 numbers in RF (21.5, 9.5, 7.3). Throughout that stretch he has killed LHP (.374/.492/.866). McDonald just can't compare. As a hitter -during that same three year period- McDonald put up substantially worse numbers(.322/ .417/ .739 )and defensively he has been rated poorly in RF throughout his time in Boston (UZR/150 of -10.3, and -10.4). Jones would also add some right-handed power to a lineup that could desperately use it. Last year he signed a 1-year deal with the Yanks for $2 million dollars. There would seem to be little downside to signing him if he is willing to sign a similar deal with the Sox..

I agree with everything here. Jones would be a fantastic signing. I thought he was done but he looked great in the couple games I saw him play for the Yanks and the numbers back this up. And actually he wasn't that terrible against RHP if he was forced into the lineup -- .781 OPS with a .453 slugging in 2010 (hey, real close to what Reddick put up last year) and .709 OPS but a .167 BABIP against RHP in 2011. I'd go hard after him and play him against every LHP, and rest assured knowing he'd still have a fighting chance against a RHP reliever or if he was forced into a start against RHP due to an injury.

#24 Otis Foster


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:21 AM

Didn't find a link elsehwere on a quick search. Apparently, Kalish is going to be out for the first month or so of the season, per the Globule..

#25 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:23 AM

Didn't find a link elsehwere on a quick search. Apparently, Kalish is going to be out for the first month or so of the season, per the Globule..

2 posts up? And quoted 1 post up?

#26 Otis Foster


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:02 AM

2 posts up? And quoted 1 post up?


I saw them, but there was no specific attribution or a link, so I thought he article would confirm that he's going down for a while.

#27 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:07 AM

I saw them, but there was no specific attribution or a link, so I thought he article would confirm that he's going down for a while.

Also discussed and linked ad nauseum in the Bailey trade thread.

Edited by Lose Remerswaal, 30 December 2011 - 10:08 AM.


#28 RoDaddy

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:06 AM

Some RH pop there would be nice.

I'd love to see some RH pop out there as well, and I don't mean the occassional platoon player. I just think we're just too left-handed, as we were last year. But this doesn't seem to be an issue/priority with the team, with the Bailey trade bringing us yet another LH outfielder.

#29 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 11:24 AM

I'd love to see some RH pop out there as well, and I don't mean the occassional platoon player. I just think we're just too left-handed, as we were last year. But this doesn't seem to be an issue/priority with the team, with the Bailey trade bringing us yet another LH outfielder.

Part of the reason the team seems unconcerned about it, I think, is that even though four of the seven lineup slots besides C and RF are manned by LHH, only one of those LHH--Crawford--had serious problems hitting LHP. Adrian had a sizable platoon split, but was still a decent hitter vs. LHP, just not a great one. Ellsbury's and Reddick's splits were small, while Ortiz actually had a reverse split (probably non-repeatable, but his career platoon split is moderate). Kalish has a career reverse split in the minors. So even though we look too lefthanded on paper, it's not like the lineup is full of guys who turn into Cesar Izturis vs. LHP, aside from Crawford.

#30 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:42 PM

Well, so much for Andruw Jones.

#31 Plympton91


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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:59 PM

I mentioned this in the other thread, but Linares could be a sleeper to emerge as the RF out of spring training. There were glowing articles about him last spring. For example, here: http://www.masslive....n_carlos_l.html. And, he's righthanded with the defensive ability to play a good Fenway RF. He went 2-18 in the AFL, so it looks like he's recovered enough from the leg injury to compete for the job from the beginning of spring training.

Of course, that's not plan A; but, it's potential upside even over the Sweeney/McDonald platoon.

Edited by Plympton91, 30 December 2011 - 08:14 PM.


#32 Doctor G

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:39 PM

I think Darnell will benefit from getting playing time from day one this year as opposed to last season when he was buried behind Cameron at the beginning of the season. only 21 ABs last year in April and May.

#33 BlackSox Jack

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:29 AM

I think Darnell will benefit from getting playing time from day one this year as opposed to last season when he was buried behind Cameron at the beginning of the season. only 21 ABs last year in April and May.


I fear that Darnell is only a 5th outfielder and not suited as a permanent platoon-mate. His defense is inconsistent at best (it will be an adventure with him in RF for 70+ games) and while he mashes lefties, he does seem to be over-exposed as a dead-red fastball hitter in those times where he has had extended playing time.

I am interested in Marlon Byrd as a RH stopgap who could serve as a platoon mate to a healthy Kalish. While he is clearly athletic, he has mostly been a CF. I wonder what it would take to get Byrd (part of the Theo compensation?) and as it has been reported that the Sox have tried to get Sweeney before, wonder if Theo was interested and if Sweeney was acquired as a potential piece going back to the Cubs?

#34 The Boomer

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 11:12 AM

I fear that Darnell is only a 5th outfielder and not suited as a permanent platoon-mate. His defense is inconsistent at best (it will be an adventure with him in RF for 70+ games) and while he mashes lefties, he does seem to be over-exposed as a dead-red fastball hitter in those times where he has had extended playing time.

I am interested in Marlon Byrd as a RH stopgap who could serve as a platoon mate to a healthy Kalish. While he is clearly athletic, he has mostly been a CF. I wonder what it would take to get Byrd (part of the Theo compensation?) and as it has been reported that the Sox have tried to get Sweeney before, wonder if Theo was interested and if Sweeney was acquired as a potential piece going back to the Cubs?


Scouring the remaining free agents who might be signed at a bargain price, I found this old friend:

http://baseball.abou.../hallbi03.shtml

It's not a stretch to believe that Bill Hall could reclaim his offensive performance from the 2010 season with the Sox in an incentive laden contract. Like Aviles, he could play adequately in both the IF and OF to maximize the bench flexibility that Valentine covets. This would also give him 3 platoon options (McDonald too) to go with Sweeney while Kalish continues his rehab.

#35 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 31 December 2011 - 11:34 AM

I am interested in Marlon Byrd as a RH stopgap who could serve as a platoon mate to a healthy Kalish.

Byrd is not a platoon player (virtually no career platoon split; sizable reverse split in 2011) and is kinda pricey for that role at $6.5M. Flipping Sweeney to the Cubs to acquire Byrd might make sense if we're planning to play Byrd full-time and keep Kalish in Pawtucket for most of the year, but otherwise I don't see the point. Byrd doesn't hit LHP any better than McDonald--last year, he hit them quite a bit worse--and while his defense is certainly better, I'm not sure the difference is worth the salary hike for a half-time player.

#36 Yaz4Ever


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Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:56 PM

Byrd is not a platoon player (virtually no career platoon split; sizable reverse split in 2011) and is kinda pricey for that role at $6.5M. Flipping Sweeney to the Cubs to acquire Byrd might make sense if we're planning to play Byrd full-time and keep Kalish in Pawtucket for most of the year, but otherwise I don't see the point. Byrd doesn't hit LHP any better than McDonald--last year, he hit them quite a bit worse--and while his defense is certainly better, I'm not sure the difference is worth the salary hike for a half-time player.


I agree that we'd be looking at Byrd as a full-timer, not platoon piece, if we were to acquire him, but I'd hope that we were only going for him as part of a Garza package in which we took $6M+ off the Cubs' books in exchange for lower level prospects from us to them. Sweeney, Lars, and more for Garza and Byrd would make me very happy - which is precisely why it likely won't happen.

#37 RedOctober3829


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Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:10 PM

Its surprising that Ben didn't go harder after Carlos Quentin to play RF. Yes, he's an abomination in the field but he would have been a really nice right handed bat in the lineup. SD only gave up 2 middling pitching prospects for him. Guess they really aren't spending money as he'd be making in the neighborhood of $7 million then is a free agent after 2012. He'd have been a nice stopgap for Kalish.

#38 JMDurron

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:34 PM

I don't really understand the fascination with players like Cuddyer and Quentin, where the fact that the player would be an abomination in the field is briefly mentioned as a side note. Once Ortiz was back on the roster, these players stopped being reasonable targets. The Red Sox seem to actually value defensively competent OFers, possibly to a fault when it came to evaluating Crawford. I think being surprised that a defensive butcher hasn't been acquired is a sign that not everyone has been paying attention to how this management group seems to value players.

#39 FanSinceBoggs

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

Its surprising that Ben didn't go harder after Carlos Quentin to play RF. Yes, he's an abomination in the field but he would have been a really nice right handed bat in the lineup. SD only gave up 2 middling pitching prospects for him. Guess they really aren't spending money as he'd be making in the neighborhood of $7 million then is a free agent after 2012. He'd have been a nice stopgap for Kalish.


A better move: trade for Quentin and make him the full-time DH, and say goodbye to Ortiz (don't offer him arbitration).

It is obviously too late for this, but this move would have left the Red Sox with more money to spend on a starting pitcher. Moreover, while Ortiz had a better offensive year than Quentin in 2011, the older Ortiz is much more likely to reach a point of significant decline in 2012. In addition, Quentin would give the Red Sox greater roster flexibility. While he is a poor defensive outfielder, he could play in the outfield from time to time when necessary. Whereas Ortiz is such a horrible athlete--he can't do anything except DH.

With the exception of bringing back Ortiz, I like Cherington's decision-making thus far, a clear improvement over Theo, who was too reckless with the money.

Edited by FanSinceBoggs, 31 December 2011 - 03:43 PM.


#40 Plympton91


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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:44 PM

It is obviously too late for this, but this move would have left the Red Sox with more money to spend on a starting pitcher. Moreover, while Ortiz had a better offensive year than Quentin in 2011, the older Ortiz is much more likely to reach a point of significant decline in 2012. In addition, Quentin would give the Red Sox greater roster flexibility. While he is a poor defensive outfielder, he could play in the outfield from time to time when necessary. Whereas Ortiz is such a horrible athlete--he can't do anything except DH.


I would have hated this move, even if it resulted in more wins for the Red Sox over the next 3 to 5 years. My interest in pro football all but ended when the hard salary cap made moves like this a necessity in order to remain competitive; it has become a sport where athletes are nothing but highly compensated chattel and fandom has been reduced to cheering for laundry the way mad bulls charge at waving red flags. To me, sports and rooting for a franchise involves more than X's and O's and W's and L's. I would rather have lost with Yaz and Tiant in 1978 and waited the 25 or so more years for a title like I did than have won with Reggie and Catfish in 1978. If the Red Sox are "hurt" by allowing icons like Ortiz to retire as Red Sox rather than sign with the Yankees for the "twilight of their careers" then so be it. Just as in 1978, in 2012, I'd rather lose with Ortiz than win with Quentin.

I will not "Root for laundry." If there's only a few dinosaurs like me left and John Henry decides someday that the way to maximize his profits is to choose differently, I won't begrudge him that. I'd do the same thing if I had my money at stake. But, just to let people know that there's still a market for loyalty, nostalgia, romanticism, and rooting for more than a color scheme, I thought I'd make that point.

A get the feeling that a lot of today's Red Sox fans, had they been born a generation earlier, would have been Yankee fans.

Edited by Plympton91, 31 December 2011 - 05:48 PM.


#41 OCD SS


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Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:14 AM

Its surprising that Ben didn't go harder after Carlos Quentin to play RF. Yes, he's an abomination in the field but he would have been a really nice right handed bat in the lineup. SD only gave up 2 middling pitching prospects for him. Guess they really aren't spending money as he'd be making in the neighborhood of $7 million then is a free agent after 2012. He'd have been a nice stopgap for Kalish.


I think this points to a fundamental disconnect between the front office and most of the people here: The Sox clearly value defense much more than their fanbase.

#42 YTF

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 11:41 AM

With most of the poll options here no longer an option and a few other of the discussed players coming off the board, I took a quick look at the Free Agent list to see who is left. Any thoughts on Cody Ross? Just a couple of seasons removed from his best offensive years and at 31 years old is still young enough to take a chance on a one or two year deal. I can't imagine he's going to demand a high salary. No real A.L. experience, not all that sure about his defense though it seems to be OK. Had some success under the spotlight of the 2010 post season. Could he be a decent, low cost option as an everyday guy / platoon player / placeholder?

#43 Doctor G

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Posted 01 January 2012 - 04:43 PM

A better move: trade for Quentin and make him the full-time DH, and say goodbye to Ortiz (don't offer him arbitration).

It is obviously too late for this, but this move would have left the Red Sox with more money to spend on a starting pitcher. Moreover, while Ortiz had a better offensive year than Quentin in 2011, the older Ortiz is much more likely to reach a point of significant decline in 2012. In addition, Quentin would give the Red Sox greater roster flexibility. While he is a poor defensive outfielder, he could play in the outfield from time to time when necessary. Whereas Ortiz is such a horrible athlete--he can't do anything except DH.

With the exception of bringing back Ortiz, I like Cherington's decision-making thus far, a clear improvement over Theo, who was too reckless with the money.

I don't think you can assume that any position player can be as successful as a fulltime DH. One thing that is really valuable about David Ortiz is that he is a career DH and is completely comfortable with the role. The only comparable player in my judgement is Edgar Martinez.

The money spent on Ortiz is not better spent on a 4 or 5 starter .Papi impacts the lineup everyday, and increases the productivity of the middle of the order.

Edited by Doctor G, 01 January 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#44 HomeRunBaker


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Posted 01 January 2012 - 08:26 PM

I don't think you can assume that any position player can be as successful as a fulltime DH. One thing that is really valuable about David Ortiz is that he is a career DH and is completely comfortable with the role. The only comparable player in my judgement is Edgar Martinez.


Doesn't Frank Thomas have a right to be included with this duo from a production standpoint? Many others spent a large amount of time being "comfortable" in that role once their days in the field ended......Harold Baines, Paul Molitor, Hal McRae, Chili Davis to name some.

#45 Drek717

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 07:44 AM

Doesn't Frank Thomas have a right to be included with this duo from a production standpoint? Many others spent a large amount of time being "comfortable" in that role once their days in the field ended......Harold Baines, Paul Molitor, Hal McRae, Chili Davis to name some.

Frank Thomas isn't your best comparison here, FYI. Not only did his OPS+ drop from consistently in the high 170's down to consecutive years of 125 in '98 and '99 when the White Sox first had him play primarily DH, but Thomas himself blamed the switch to DH as why his production dropped. Below is the link to an article from just last February where he talks about the difficulty staying effective as a DH and claims it cost him 20 points off his career batting average.
LINK

#46 The Boomer

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 01:22 PM

Scouring the remaining free agents who might be signed at a bargain price, I found this old friend:

http://baseball.abou.../hallbi03.shtml

It's not a stretch to believe that Bill Hall could reclaim his offensive performance from the 2010 season with the Sox in an incentive laden contract. Like Aviles, he could play adequately in both the IF and OF to maximize the bench flexibility that Valentine covets. This would also give him 3 platoon options (McDonald too) to go with Sweeney while Kalish continues his rehab.


If this note from about 1 month ago is true, it's another reason to consider Bill Hall as that sleeper utility player for both IF and OF:

http://www.rotoworld.../3531/bill-hall

#47 bosockboy


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Posted 02 January 2012 - 01:50 PM

If this note from about 1 month ago is true, it's another reason to consider Bill Hall as that sleeper utility player for both IF and OF:

http://www.rotoworld.../3531/bill-hall

Hall seems incredibly redundant with Aviles. I think they need a legitimate RHH outfielder.

#48 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 02 January 2012 - 02:46 PM

Hall seems incredibly redundant with Aviles.

I don't think anybody would suggest carrying both of them. I assumed Hall was being touted as an Aviles upgrade (mostly on account of his greater OF experience).

#49 The Boomer

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 03:45 PM

I don't think anybody would suggest carrying both of them. I assumed Hall was being touted as an Aviles upgrade (mostly on account of his greater OF experience).


Decent reserves at the right price might not be redundant. Having them both would increase flexibility day to day. While neither Hall nor Aviles will win any gold gloves, they would bring decent reserve bats with positional flexibility. Punto gives them a defensive replacement option. Valentine's tendency to use his whole roster might be effectively maximized with such depth. While I might not recommend carrying both of them, it's not beyond suggestion. Sweeney with platoon and replacement options, McDonald, Aviles and Hall might allow the best match-up and pinch hitting combination. Such an arrangement might work for the first few months until Kalish proves he is recovered. If so, then one of them becomes surplus. If not, they would retain limited flexibility to exceed the luxury tax limit for the latter part of the season unless, at that point, some or all of them exceed performance expectations.

Edited by The Boomer, 02 January 2012 - 03:47 PM.


#50 Red(s)HawksFan


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Posted 02 January 2012 - 04:16 PM

Decent reserves at the right price might not be redundant. Having them both would increase flexibility day to day. While neither Hall nor Aviles will win any gold gloves, they would bring decent reserve bats with positional flexibility. Punto gives them a defensive replacement option. Valentine's tendency to use his whole roster might be effectively maximized with such depth. While I might not recommend carrying both of them, it's not beyond suggestion. Sweeney with platoon and replacement options, McDonald, Aviles and Hall might allow the best match-up and pinch hitting combination. Such an arrangement might work for the first few months until Kalish proves he is recovered. If so, then one of them becomes surplus. If not, they would retain limited flexibility to exceed the luxury tax limit for the latter part of the season unless, at that point, some or all of them exceed performance expectations.

If they're carrying 12 pitchers and go with a four-man bench like they have done for the last few years, having Hall and Aviles is absolutely redundant. Regardless of their outfield experience, neither inspires any kind of confidence defensively. And since the most likely outfield position they'll be plugging into is also the toughest to play (at least at home), it's a scary proposition as a long-term roster alignment to have them as the 4th and 5th OF.

Frankly, I don't think Hall is a demonstrable enough upgrade to McDonald as either a defensive outfielder or a lefty-masher to replace him on the roster. And the "flexibility" Hall provides as back-up to the back-up to the back-up infielder has virtually no impact unless they are hit by multiple injuries in the same game or get involved in a very long extra-inning affair. None of the infield starters are likely to be platooned in any way, and there should never be a scenario in which three infield starters are all voluntarily given a day off at the same time. If there's a game where three of them are out, odds are at least one of them is hurt enough to be placed on the DL, enabling them to bring up Iglesias or someone else to fill in short-term.

So if there is any chance of the Sox bringing back Bill Hall, it has to be at the expense of Aviles. Given that Aviles has been playing outfield in winter ball (ostensibly at the team's request), it appears they're committed to giving him a shot at being that Bill Hall type utility guy in 2012.

Edited by Red(s)HawksFan, 02 January 2012 - 04:23 PM.