1775 replies to this topic

[j44thor]

Once Brady takes 30 seconds at the line, I think you have to risk the challenge, since you'd get all the time back if it's overturned.

Not to mention you get to call the ideal play for the situation and contingencies plays for 3rd/4th down thus saving you more time.

[BoredViewer]

I still want to know why he didn't challenge the 3rd and 1 spot - instead of just using a regular timeout.

I can't find anything that says the timeout would be lost AND the game clock would restart.

[Shelterdog]

Yes. Why did Brandon Tate get cut again? Woodhead, Ridley, Slater aren't cutting it at all. Edelman looked ok but they need more at the position.

Because he's not good at football.

[Ed Hillel]

I still want to know why he didn't challenge the 3rd and 1 spot - instead of just using a regular timeout.

I can't find anything that says the timeout would be lost AND the game clock would restart.

They changed the rule so you can only challenge spots that would result in a first down or TD. That play is therefore no longer challengeable.

Edited by Ed Hillel, 30 October 2011 - 07:55 PM.

[Turrable]

The Pats are still tied for the best record in the conference. Obviously they just played like shit, but so has every AFC team at some point this year.

[BoredViewer]

They changed the rule so you can only challenge spots that would result in a first down or TD. That play is therefore no longer challengeable.

That was exactly the play... 3rd and 1 - they ruled he got a 1st down by half a ball on the run. BB then called a TO.

I found mention of the 49ers doing a similar thing in a game in 08 - didn't work out for them, but it was essentially a free challenge. The one quick replay I saw (and obviously by the half a ball spot) it wasn't 100% clear the spot couldn't have been off... and even if it was 100% clear - there was essentially no harm in calling the challenge. Unless the rule has changed, I think BB was unaware/unprepared.

Baffling no-challenge on the Gronk catch aside - this isn't the first time BB has shown his end of game management to be subpar.

[nazz45]

I would expect a lot of focus on Bodden and the corner play by the media following this one. I certainly don't understand the timing of the release -- two days before a game, especially coming off the bye -- but I imagine there is more to why it happened that way.

The move was bound to have a negative impact simply because Bodden was getting at least a few practice reps over Molden and Adams during the course of the week. But I'll trust Belichick's evaluation of Bodden not fitting (or not wanting to fit) his role.

And while it doesn't look good when Molden is being replaced by Adams near the end of the game (seemingly performance, not injury, related), that wasn't the major issue.

The combination of Mayo being limited and asking Spikes to key and diagnose out of his drop 50 times in a single game is never ideal. He is far too reactionary in coverage and too slow to recover (of course, this can apply to Guyton as well). He'll make the tackle, but rarely the play in coverage. He's best when he is allowed to cause chaos around the line of scrimmage (like against the Cowboys), but the Steelers were able to dictate coverage with their spread formations.

Speaking of causing chaos at the line of scrimmage, Patrick Chung may be their best option in the so-called "star" role. However, the lack of depth at safety has really limited what they seem to be willing to do with Chung so far. He has his flaws in coverage as well but I think you could live with those in exchange for his physicality against tight ends in the slot, better than average ball skills and blitzing ability out of the star position -- these skills and his usage have been more or less neutered by the lack of another viable safety.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Ihedigbo was replaced by Serge Brown (a healthy scratch last week). With the secondary personnel in flux, communication is going to be an ongoing issue as well. We've already seen Brown, Barrett and Ihedigbo start along side Chung. The safety situation is a mess that Belichick failed to address following the release of Sanders and Meriweather -- yes, mediocre quantities but sometimes known mediocre quantities are better than ... Josh Barrett.

Edited by nazz45, 30 October 2011 - 08:24 PM.

[Ed Hillel]

That was exactly the play... 3rd and 1 - they ruled he got a 1st down by half a ball on the run. BB then called a TO.

Oh, ok, that play. I suspect he didn't challenge because they hadn't measured yet. Technically, he couldn't until then and he just wanted to call the TO as quickly as possible.

[SWHB]

That was exactly the play... 3rd and 1 - they ruled he got a 1st down by half a ball on the run. BB then called a TO.

I found mention of the 49ers doing a similar thing in a game in 08 - didn't work out for them, but it was essentially a free challenge. The one quick replay I saw (and obviously by the half a ball spot) it wasn't 100% clear the spot couldn't have been off... and even if it was 100% clear - there was essentially no harm in calling the challenge. Unless the rule has changed, I think BB was unaware/unprepared.

Baffling no-challenge on the Gronk catch aside - this isn't the first time BB has shown his end of game management to be subpar.

Subpar compared to what? Other coaches, or some Platonic ideal? I was fine with all of the non-challenges, and the time management over all.

[cshea]

Subpar compared to what? Other coaches, or some Platonic ideal? I was fine with all of the non-challenges, and the time management over all.

Eh, I thought it kinda sucked today. I think BB should've challenged the Gronk play, and I also thought Brady's clock management kinda sucked down around the goal line.The Gronk play happened with about 4:30 left. They rushed to the line, and then Brady ran the play clock all the way down before snapping it, and that was the 1 yard completion to Faulk. They used just about the entire 80 seconds on the play clock getting those 2 plays set up and run.

[SWHB]

Eh, I thought it kinda sucked today. I think BB should've challenged the Gronk play, and I also thought Brady's clock management kinda sucked down around the goal line.The Gronk play happened with about 4:30 left. They rushed to the line, and then Brady ran the play clock all the way down before snapping it, and that was the 1 yard completion to Faulk. They used just about the entire 80 seconds on the play clock getting those 2 plays set up and run.

That sucked, but it's hard to blame anyone. No replay was shown in the booth, so the booth couldn't give BB any useful information. Without that, saving the timeout was probably the right call. Brady was presumably delaying in the hope that a replay would lead to a challenge, but that never happened (the crowd noise may have been another factor in the offense's overall slowness in getting plays off). It's an unfortunate turn of events, but I don't see any clear evidence of mismanagement.

[ngruz25]

If Brady was waiting for a replay, he probably should have huddled instead of going to the line. CBS wasn't going to go to replay with the offense about to snap the ball from the one yard line.

[RedOctober3829]

According to ESPN's Playoff Standings(they figure out the tiebreakers), here are the AFC playoffs if it started right now.

1. Pittsburgh
2. Buffalo
3. San Diego
4. Houston
5. Cincinnati
6. New England

[twibnotes]

I think what soxfan121 means - and I could be misinterpreting your position SF - is that taking this step is likely to result in Belichick resisting it, or - ultimately - resigning. Put another way: the logical result of getting another strong voice into the front office with some sort of veto power on Belichick could very well be BB leaving.

Whether people advocating for a GM have considered this or believe this is the case is for them to say. And, as SF said, maybe they appreciate this possibility quite well, and in fact want it to transpire, or are at least willing to risk it.

Assuming he does need some help, I agree it's a tough situation. Hard to see a HOF coach give up power or adopt fundamental changes to the way personnel decisions are made. Bottom line though is that a historically great defensive architect has struggled to field a good defense for a few years...and at a time when Brady is at the top of his game that's a missed opportunity.

[KingPK]

Is it possible that it's just a case of Belichick's ideals being out of date? With the rules more and more skewed towards the offense, building a defense is a different task than it was just 5-10 years ago. What was successful then just may not work now. I just don't think these defenses have been able to adapt to that the last few years.

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Is it possible that it's just a case of Belichick's ideals being out of date? With the rules more and more skewed towards the offense, building a defense is a different task than it was just 5-10 years ago. What was successful then just may not work now. I just don't think these defenses have been able to adapt to that the last few years.

Well, today wouldn't necessarily be the best argument for that. This was essentially the bend-don't-break defense that won the Super Bowls. They kept everything in front of them, didn't give up the big play, and didn't allow (overall) Pitt into the end zone. They gave up 23 points. Basically what they're averaging.

The idea behind this defense is that you make the other team convert a huge amount of third downs, and eventually they're not going to convert one and you get the ball back. Unfortunately, the players just aren't good enough. Thus, they never got Pitt off the field. Go look at the amount of plays in those Steeler scoring drives - 16, 14, 11, 10, etc. Huge amounts of plays. It wasn't like Pittsburgh was scoring at will. It's just that they kept converting 3rd and 15s. The players need to make the plays in those cases. They just couldn't stay with guys, or were standing four feet away inexplicably. They didn't get lit up - they got pecked to death. I think that's on the players.

[dcmissle]

According to ESPN's Playoff Standings(they figure out the tiebreakers), here are the AFC playoffs if it started right now.

1. Pittsburgh
2. Buffalo
3. San Diego
4. Houston
5. Cincinnati
6. New England

A team not there is the Jets. They are back in the mix in the East.

A few more stats from today. Pats lost first down battle 29 to 19, third-down conversions 62.5% to 30%, passing yards 329 to 170, and TOP by 2-to-1. Finally, Pittsburgh threw 50 times, ran 23 -- Pittsburgh.

So the Steelers did what the Pats have been doing to them for years. There is a blueprint here that is transferable. I like Ben a lot, but face it -- he's more butcher than surgeon. Imagine, for example, how this would have played out with Rodgers on the other side.

[RedOctober3829]

@mr_carter93 Definition of Die-Hard: 1 who stubbornly resists change or tenaciously adheres 2 seemingly hopeless/outdated cause #pats

BB?

[Mystic Merlin]

I doubt it. Reads like your run of the mill athletic battle cry.

I think you're reading too much into it.

[TheoShmeo]

Regarding the failure to challenge the Gronk TD, CBS did not show a replay until after Bill could have challenged. I assume that Ernie Adams has access to DVR technology in the booth and can replay it himself (assuming he has time), but I don't know that. Hell, it could be against the rules for all I know. If he could not see a replay, I can understand not challenging as it wasn't totally clear from live action that Gronk was in. I thought he was, and I assume most viewers did, but it wasn't obvious.

Someone asked why Bill didn't challenge the 3rd and 1 spot rather than just using a time out. That was odd to me, too, as losing the challenge would have had the same net effect. Why not challenge? To preserve your challenge batting average? I'm not serious but I can't think of any actual reason not to do it.

PS: Simms' cluelessness about the rules book at the end was ridiculous. CBS needs to mimic Fox in that regard, as it's nice to know what your actually rooting for during a review. It turned out that it was academic, as they were debating safety vs. TD (I think). But it would be nice to have the "experts" tell us.

PPS: The NFL is a copycat league. Why would any team NOT throw the ball on the Pats repeatedly and press the receivers? That strategy worked well for the Steelers yesterday, that defensive strategy worked for the Jets in the playoffs, and the Pats have a weak secondary and receivers who are not overly physical. Not all teams will have the personnel to do it, but teams with a good passing attack and corners who can play up would be almost crazy to veer much from what we saw yesterday.

Edited by TheoShmeo, 31 October 2011 - 05:29 AM.

[Shelterdog]

BB?

He said immediately after that he was praising diehard pats fans.

[Dehere]

PPS: The NFL is a copycat league. Why would any team NOT throw the ball on the Pats repeatedly and press the receivers?

Because they simply don't have the offensive personnel Pittsburgh has. Steelers certainly have a top five receiving corps and debatably a top five quarterback.

But your point is taken in that if New England is going to win it all they're likely going to have to beat at least one of the following in the playoffs: Buffalo, San Diego, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Green Bay and those are all teams that can abandon the run and throw 50+ times.

[drleather2001]

Can someone explain to me what happened in, I think, the 2nd quarter when a Steeler ran through the line before the snap and then started smacking Logan Mankins?

Why wasn't there a flag?

Edited by drleather2001, 31 October 2011 - 11:13 AM.

[KiltedFool]

Can someone explain to me what happened in, I think, the 2nd quarter when a Steeler ran through the line before the snap and then started smacking Logan Mankins?

Why wasn't there a flag?

I recall a play where Mankins flinched (false start) and Keisel came across his face into the A gap and Mankins knocked him over, basically pushed him and he fell over backwards over the center's butt/legs. That the one you mean?

[Brickowski]

I made it a point not to listen to the radio today. I'm sure there was much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth. The Patriots played like crap on the road and looked rusty afther the bye week. Pittsburgh was fired up and played well at home. Rothlesburger played about as well as he can play. It happens.


I'm willing to give them a mulligan. Just don't do it again.

[estreetfan]

It was even worse flying across the country for this game!