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Sox pitchers drank in the dugout?


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213 replies to this topic

#101 yecul


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:41 PM

I don't believe them.


Frankly, you're probably right. The basic question is: why wouldn't they?

I don't care because what's the difference? Either they went back to the clubhouse for some beers and then returned to the dugout or they drank in both places.

It's interesting that the dugout is a big deal to them. They don't mind doing it in the clubhouse during a game, but not in the dugout during a game? Clearly they have respect for the game.

Edited by yecul, 18 October 2011 - 10:41 PM.


#102 Ananti


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:41 PM

You don't believe Francona? Why? It's funny that they have to get the former manager to help put out the fire, but I actually buy that he's telling the truth.


Well, I believe he has never "seen" it. But to me that was a very qualified denial.

#103 EvilEmpire

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:42 PM

Can't wait for the suspicious video to come out of those three drinking from plastic cups in the dugout.

#104 greek_gawd_of_walks


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:44 PM

Can't wait for the suspicious video to come out of those three drinking from plastic cups in the dugout.

It's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm5o_r4Lyc0



#105 JayMags71


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:48 PM

Ah, but the Bud Lights! That's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the clubhouse icebox did exist!

This isn't getting nearly enough love.

#106 Sprowl


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 10:51 PM

Wow.

http://www.mlb.com/n...2922931564-1022

Beckett and Lackey aren't mute after all. Interesting stuff. Never a dull moment.

Interesting that drinking-in-the-dugout was the rumor too far that brought the starters out of the woodwork. I take it as a confirmation that everything else reported was true.

#107 MoVaughnsTruck

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:04 PM

Interesting that drinking-in-the-dugout was the rumor too far that brought the starters out of the woodwork. I take it as a confirmation that everything else reported was true.

Either that, or they want to nip the bud before the real nasty stuff gets out. Getting Wally drunk and making him call Heidi at 3 AM.

#108 E5 Yaz


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:05 PM

Interesting that drinking-in-the-dugout was the rumor too far that brought the starters out of the woodwork. I take it as a confirmation that everything else reported was true.


Or, they figured they could just weather the storm of the other nonsense and this just decided to make them take action

#109 Paul M


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:11 PM

What other nonsense? They all have admitted to it from what I can tell: loafing around, questionable nutrition, hiding in the clubhouse and drinking at times, and tuning out the manager. That's been validated by a couple sources.

Glad to see a definat rebuttal to this allegation which definitely was serious enough and very damaging. I hope that's the end of the whispers and gossip.

#110 Harry Hooper


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:11 PM

Maybe it's true, but it is hard to take the PR seriously. Those don't read like ballplayers' responses, but the craftwork of advisors/lawyers. Try adding "Muffy, would you please pass the Grey Poupon?" to the end of each one and see how well it fits.

Then you have a Sgt. Schultz response from Tito, followed by sort of a Mark McGwire from LL.

#111 mauidano


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:51 PM

But you can't "move on" until you find out exactly what happened. You can't be guessing about this stuff and then acting on those guesses. You have to really KNOW what went on. Let's hope that the front office is doing a very thorough investigation of its own here and ensures this kind of nonsense never ever happens again. I'm looking forward to a LOT of changes to this ballclub, and to a manager who will command respect. But what the front office does at this point will set the direction for this organization and its future success or failure on the field for many years to come. They have to do the right thing, and to do that they have to know what happened in all its sordid details. If the entire organization were to blame for one major factor that allowed this all to happen it was that too many people (manager, coaches, players and front office) turned a blind eye to what was happening. That can't happen now. Time for everyone to open their eyes. Then deal with what they see. That's the process that is going on right now. Let's not short-circuit that process or pretend that these problems have been dealt with when they haven't.

The point is will you ever REALLY know and does it REALLY matter. As of tonight, everyone is denying certain aspects of their behavior. Will that be good enough? What will be good enough? what is the truth? will you ever know really? At what point does it solve anything? It just continues to be detrimental to moving forward. The embarrassment on the organization is enough don't you think? What is considered the "end of this"? I'm just saying I think enough already. Let it go.

#112 E5 Yaz


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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:55 PM

After all that's come out the past couple of weeks, when anonymous sources drop a bomb like this, you would think that Ch. 7 ... and then Abraham, who "confirmed" it with his sources in Extra Bases ... had a responsibility to attempt to get the denial from the pitchers before running with this tip.

Neither Ch. 7 or Abraham did, which speaks to the mob mentality of wanting to pile on, instead of presenting a balanced report.

And that's just one of the issues of relying on anonymous sources; reporters, and people like Abraham, start to believe them at will and forget their responsibilities to check, verify and obtain rebuttal.

#113 BigPapiLumber Co.

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:52 AM

Maybe it's true, but it is hard to take the PR seriously. Those don't read like ballplayers' responses, but the craftwork of advisors/lawyers. Try adding "Muffy, would you please pass the Grey Poupon?" to the end of each one and see how well it fits.

Then you have a Sgt. Schultz response from Tito, followed by sort of a Mark McGwire from LL.



They want me to believe that Josh F. Beckett used a semi-colon correctly? Badasses like him shouldn't know a semi-colon from an em-dash. I don't friggen buy it!

#114 shepard50

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 01:03 AM

Hopefully this is the end of the distracting, innuendo-filled and incredibly uncathartic episode known as "Beergate"

#115 chechusma


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:40 AM

I find it hilarious that, while Beckett (and Lester before him) basically say "I messed up", Lackey can only bring himself to use the passive voice ("Things happened that shouldn't have happened")... It's classic Lackey avoidance of personal responsibility ("I felt good, threw good pitches, etc")

Edited by chechusma, 19 October 2011 - 06:42 AM.


#116 OCD SS


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:32 AM

Interesting that drinking-in-the-dugout was the rumor too far that brought the starters out of the woodwork. I take it as a confirmation that everything else reported was true.

They want me to believe that Josh F. Beckett used a semi-colon correctly? Badasses like him shouldn't know a semi-colon from an em-dash. I don't friggen buy it!


This would certainly be a rumor too far for the front office. The others certainly saw how things went for Lester in talking to the press, so I'm not surprised that they're speaking out in a press release rather than an interview.

#117 gcapalbo

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:32 AM

Somebody ought to remind the Globe that Kevin Millar passed around the Jack Daniels before game 6 of the ALCS in 2004...

... and you know, I have it on good authority, from a source I can't reveal that there has been drinking and fried chicken eaten in the press box at games in nearly every major league park, for YEARS!

Why, that's an outrage, I tell you! I'll never be satisfied with any apology!

... please Boston media, this needs to stop.

#118 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:47 AM

Somebody ought to remind the Globe that Kevin Millar passed around the Jack Daniels before game 6 of the ALCS in 2004...

... and you know, I have it on good authority, from a source I can't reveal that there has been drinking and fried chicken eaten in the press box at games in nearly every major league park, for YEARS!

Why, that's an outrage, I tell you! I'll never be satisfied with any apology!

... please Boston media, this needs to stop.

It's not going to stop because frankly it represents a complete abandonment of any type of professional behavior on the part of the players involved. Of course they are adults, but I honestly can't see how it's acceptable to have a clique of the team drinking alcohol and eating fast food in the clubhouse while the games are still going on. After the game? No problem at all with it. But to do so while the game is currently being played by their teammates shows, IMO a real lack of professionalism and cohesiveness by the players involved. Add to that the reports that Beckett and Lackey and Lester were out of shape, and their poorp performances at the end of the season in the middle of a catastrophic collapse, and you can damn well see it's a story and a legitimate one.

It's a shame Francona either didn't or couldn't put a stop to such behavior. Probably explains quite a bit why he's no longer the manager.

Maybe they need to go back to the old McKeon method of treating Beckett and friends like children: hall passes for the clubhouse. Lock the goddamn door and tell them in no uncertain terms they need to be in the dugout with the rest of the team. You know, like the professionals they're supposed to be.

#119 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:05 AM

If nothing else, this whole affair is a textbook in how NOT to handle a "scandal" in terms of public relations. Certainly with regard to the players anyway. The best thing to do as soon as any of these "drinking" allegations surfaced, what, a week or two ago, was for all of the players involved to get out in front of it, come clean with what they did and didn't do and present a (hopefully) sympathetic, contrite and honest face to their side of the story. Wouldn't stop the scandal, but it would, as they say, contain it.

Instead, they sit by passively as the steady drip drip drip of anonymous and unsourced allegations continues nonstop. So by the time something like "drinking in the clubhouse" comes out, their denials (issued through and crafted by a PR department) become irrelevant. The scandal has now reached the stage at which any allegation becomes effectively true simply by stating it. And the reputations of Beckett, Lester and Lackey are -- rightly or wrongly -- damaged permanently.

Who knows what the next charge to leak out will be? The problem is, because this whole thing has been handled with such ineptitude and arrogance by not only the organization but more importantly the players involved, that whatever the next crazy allegation turns out to be, it is already for all intents and purposes "true."

#120 sfip


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:05 AM

If this story were true the only part I'd question or criticize is their taste in beer.

#121 bakahump

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:19 AM

Who has been fired so far? We might need to start a wiki entry for the Great Purge of 2011.

THEO!

Ok not fired...


"Hi is this the Globe? Well I wanted to say Jon and Josh where drinking in the dugout. Any questions please call Theo at 312-867-5309"

"Hey Josh....Theo. I feel bad about the whole Lackey thing...tell you what...while I cant do anything about Lackey...I can take your other problem children."

"Mr. Ricketts we now have a staff."


Seriously this has to be some kind of conspiracy right?

#122 irinmike

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:26 AM

Beer was consumed by the players while a game was being played. Players were allowed to make decisions as to what was proper in the confines of a work place. Does it really matter WHERE the beer was consumed? Now tell me, is that type of behavior allowed in any business, school, or viable commercial enterprise? I doubt it, unless its back stage at a rock concert. So the Boston press and talk radio is having a field day dragging every player through the mud, who is still employed by the Boston Red Sox, by unnamed sources. Schilling is railing, to anyone who will listen, about how these "professional" ball players are letting management and their coach down.

That is just not the case. Management is responsible for setting the tone of workplace performance and decorum. In this case it falls directly on Tito and to some degree Theo. I for one will be a very happy Red Sox fan when a new coach is named and Ben C. takes over as the general manager. The players made mistakes for sure, but the management set the tone for it to be able to happen. This can and will be cleaned up as soon as new management is in place and sensible rules for locker room and club house behavior are set and enforced.

#123 Harry Agganis

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:33 AM

Next year they should tip all the club house attendants and bat boys better

#124 FanSinceBoggs

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:45 AM

To take this a step further: maybe Theo was drinking during the GM meetings? That would explain his brutal decisions to sign Renteria, Lugo, Lackey, Penny, Cameron, and give an unprofessional hitter like Carl Crawford $142 million. Yeah, giving Carl Crawford $142 million is a great idea especially if you're taking excessive gulps and swigs of Budweiser.

It all makes sense to me now.......

Edited by FanSinceBoggs, 19 October 2011 - 08:47 AM.


#125 Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:46 AM

Next year they should tip all the club house attendants and bat boys better

A playoff share would have gone a long way to accomplishing that........

#126 Jimbodandy

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:53 AM

I wish that one of these anonymous sources had the stones to do something about one or two of these issues when it may have actually made a difference to the season.

#127 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:54 AM

THEO!

Ok not fired...


"Hi is this the Globe? Well I wanted to say Jon and Josh where drinking in the dugout. Any questions please call Theo at 312-867-5309"

"Hey Josh....Theo. I feel bad about the whole Lackey thing...tell you what...while I cant do anything about Lackey...I can take your other problem children."

"Mr. Ricketts we now have a staff."


Seriously this has to be some kind of conspiracy right?


Conspiracy? More like a truly bizarre straw man on your part. Like, how did you even come up with this?

What's funny about this story (and specifically the drinking in the clubhouse story) is the amount of people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling loudly that nothing is wrong. This is seriously the most embarrassing story to come out about the team in a long time. This is worse than any of the stories that most of us mocked the Mets for the past 15 years. Not only did the team with the best record in the AL lose a big lead, but they did so because they just didn't care. When the only two good starters in your rotation have hung it up for the season, you're going to have a tough time winning games as a team.

Even if the dugout story isn't true, the fact that a story like this can come out and sound 100% believable is kind of sad. While they've denied it, it's obviously in their best interest since I'd imagine the league would come down hard on them if they were in fact drinking in the dugout.

#128 Toe Nash

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:07 AM

Abraham has a "insiders" take as to why this doesn't matter:

It's probably not particularly smart to drink while your teammates are playing. But be advised that this probably happens every day in some clubhouse. And more. One outfielder I covered, now retired, used to pour a shot of Kahlua into every tin of smokeless tobacco he opened. He kept the bottle in his locker and didn't care who noticed. Other guys sneak cigarettes in back rooms.


Now Abe is one of the main people responsible for muckraking up this whole mess in the first place, so it's hypocritical that he'd write this. But he's been around a clubhouse or five, and he's right. People really need to relax about this.

I imagine people may say that drinking beer is worse than sneaking a cigarette or trying to spot pretty girls in the stands. But ask yourself why? If you're a teetotaler, then ok, you think alcohol is the devil. But it's not. There's no chance these guys were going to play in the game and it's kind of a boring game at times. Lester said they weren't getting hammered. If anything having a beer or two may perk them up and be likely to cheer their teammates on more than before.

When did the temperance movement get a revival on SoSH?

#129 TomRicardo


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:09 AM

When you impload as an organization, this is what happens. I am not so quick to dismiss this and maybe this is just reactionary but I am not really sure I care about this team right now. As "gossip girl" as the media has been it is maybe not the worst thing to know how a team can truly collapse is when there are players that are not really fully invested.


The Mets collapse had no where close to this kind of media scrutiny.

#130 bakahump

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:11 AM

Conspiracy? More like a truly bizarre straw man on your part. Like, how did you even come up with this?

What's funny about this story (and specifically the drinking in the clubhouse story) is the amount of people sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling loudly that nothing is wrong. This is seriously the most embarrassing story to come out about the team in a long time. This is worse than any of the stories that most of us mocked the Mets for the past 15 years. Not only did the team with the best record in the AL lose a big lead, but they did so because they just didn't care. When the only two good starters in your rotation have hung it up for the season, you're going to have a tough time winning games as a team.

Even if the dugout story isn't true, the fact that a story like this can come out and sound 100% believable is kind of sad. While they've denied it, it's obviously in their best interest since I'd imagine the league would come down hard on them if they were in fact drinking in the dugout.

Jeezus, Relax mt8thsw9th. Sarcasm detector broken?

Do I think Theo is making false claims? Of course not. Do I think he is making any kind of claims? No.

Does is seem incredible that day after day this gets worse and more bizarre everyday? All based on some unknown sources? Yes

And who is winning from this? Not the ownership. Not the Players. Not the Fans. Someone has an agenda. Be it (as is most likely) a lower level employee like a clubhouse guy or an exec.

Certainly the claims that this is some mud racking by the ownership has to be view skeptically.

#131 24JoshuaPoint


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:22 AM

The whole thing is getting ridiculous. As with breakups there is always 'her story, your story, and the real story.' The later of which we'll never know. I'm sure a lot of what's been reported is accurate but with anonymous sources there will never be closure. Hoping a current player or even one on the way out to come out and verify some of this stuff only to be soon vilified is asking for the moon. At this point like the steroid scandal; i just want it to go away. It's sickening.

But like someone said above it's as if the players only care about reacting to the beer drinking, not the fact that they had the highest level of suckitude possible. 'We just didn't play well down the stretch'. Well why the f*ck not? Quite the f*cking Bull Durham cliche's and give your fanbase a reason if it isn't the clubhouse shenanigans. I don't know if these three or four starting pitchers noticed but they were the overwhelming reason for the collapse.

#132 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:23 AM

Beer was consumed by the players while a game was being played. Players were allowed to make decisions as to what was proper in the confines of a work place. Does it really matter WHERE the beer was consumed? Now tell me, is that type of behavior allowed in any business, school, or viable commercial enterprise?


As mentioned above, there's beer flowing in the press box at Fenway Park during games. (I can't personally verify that it still is, but I can personally verify that a free keg was tapped in the press box every night, along with the usual free food, back when the previous ownership was in charge. At least a couple of the columnists who are still around bloviating self-righteously were working back then too. And if the free keg did get pulled from the press box at some point, we'd probably have heard about it. Hey, was that why all the writers hated Duquette so much? Did he yank their free nightly drinks? Or does the alcohol still flow in the press box during games?)

I'm sure some of these reporters who are so irate about the Red Sox drinking during games will mention that at some point, right? They seem to have forgotten that in their righteous crusade to stamp out unprofessional behavior at Fenway. I'm sure they'll get around to it soon.

Hey, beer and baseball just go together. The rules clearly state that you can't leave first base until you chug a beer, any man scoring has to chug a beer, and you have to chug a beer at the top of all odd-numbered innings. Oh and the fourth inning is the beer inning.

#133 Alcohol&Overcalls

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:23 AM

I know the Alcohol Trio is now denying these accusations but unless you comment above refers to beer pong, you are wrong here.


Clearly, you've never played tournament-level slow pitch softball (which isn't a bad thing probably).

This whole thing seems to be the greatest-ever exercise in the Fundamental Attribution Error... what a hot mess.

#134 Scott Cooper

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:28 AM

A playoff share would have gone a long way to accomplishing that........



If we truly think this is a "Clubhouse" source I can see these guys who DONT make millions being pissed to see their playoff shares go to shit because these guys refused to take care of themselves.


I'm not saying that the drinking is what did them in, but if I was making 30K a year and saw the people who were screwing around with what could have been another 50% of my salary, i'd be pissed as hell!

#135 FredCDobbs

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:34 AM

These guys are the Red Sox version of the Jail Blazers. Maybe we'll get lucky and the owners will have a Lockout next year.

#136 C4CRVT

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:44 AM

Beer was consumed by the players while a game was being played. Players were allowed to make decisions as to what was proper in the confines of a work place. Does it really matter WHERE the beer was consumed? Now tell me, is that type of behavior allowed in any business, school, or viable commercial enterprise? I doubt it, unless its back stage at a rock concert. So the Boston press and talk radio is having a field day dragging every player through the mud, who is still employed by the Boston Red Sox, by unnamed sources. Schilling is railing, to anyone who will listen, about how these "professional" ball players are letting management and their coach down.

That is just not the case. Management is responsible for setting the tone of workplace performance and decorum. In this case it falls directly on Tito and to some degree Theo. I for one will be a very happy Red Sox fan when a new coach is named and Ben C. takes over as the general manager. The players made mistakes for sure, but the management set the tone for it to be able to happen. This can and will be cleaned up as soon as new management is in place and sensible rules for locker room and club house behavior are set and enforced.


I agree wholeheartedly with the second point in your post. It's on management if they saw this stuff going on and didn't make an effort to adopt and enforce standards for behavior and conditioning. If they're the ones leaking this garbage to get their point across to the team that this won't be tolerated any more, that's a pretty crappy way to get your message out to your employees and it makes you look reasonably incompetent as a management structure. That is by far the most alarming piece of this whole episode to me.

But the bolded part, I completely disagree with. Maybe architects and engineers are different from the rest of the professional world but all three offices I've worked in were OK with a couple of beers on Friday afternoon and I'm pretty sure that some of the structural engineers I work with do the same. I'm sure schools and manufacturing are a different story. EDIT- I just re-read. If you're implying that you have a problem with the employees bucking company policy then of course that's on them (and then on the boss for not cracking down). I'm obviously responding to the (perhaps incorrect) interpretation of your post saying that drinking on the job is wrong and should not be allowed. Reading comprehension was never my strong suit...

I don't know how to react to the allegations of lax training or "caring about the team" because I have no idea how and if it affected the team. Blame luck for the two more wins the RS should have had. Blame luck for Beckett's ankle and Buchholz' back. Neither of those things happen and we're quite possibly still playing. Drinking and xbox in the clubhouse, fatass pitchers and all.

Edited by C4CRVT, 19 October 2011 - 12:02 PM.


#137 86spike


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:51 AM

If we truly think this is a "Clubhouse" source I can see these guys who DONT make millions being pissed to see their playoff shares go to shit because these guys refused to take care of themselves.


I'm not saying that the drinking is what did them in, but if I was making 30K a year and saw the people who were screwing around with what could have been another 50% of my salary, i'd be pissed as hell!


Seriously. I wonder if there's a member of the clubhouse staff or training staff who bought a slick new car in late August planning to pay for it with the playoff bonus he though he was a lock to get this year.

Lester, Beckett and Lackey all fell flat on their faces in September and were a huge part of why the team failed.

They are now being punished for that. It's not just a matter of "omg, beer during games!!!!". It's a matter of 3 important people on the team who sucked and struggled to perform. The beer theme is just one act in this play. They failed. Now they pay the price.

All of you 'This is stupid' folks are failing to see the forest for the trees. This is part of the punishment for their blatant failure. There will be more.

They deserve it.

#138 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:58 AM

Not only did the team with the best record in the AL lose a big lead, but they did so because they just didn't care. When the only two good starters in your rotation have hung it up for the season, you're going to have a tough time winning games as a team.


This is what bugs me most about this whole story, the idea that the entire September disaster can be reduced to the team "not caring." What we're losing in all of this is that the causes of a collapse this catastrophic are extremely complicated. The attitude problems of a few players may be a factor, but if so, it's one of many and possibly not even a major one. I think it's all too easy to give in to the "denial of complexity" and that's always dangerous.

Now Abe is one of the main people responsible for muckraking up this whole mess in the first place, so it's hypocritical that he'd write this. But he's been around a clubhouse or five, and he's right. People really need to relax about this.

I imagine people may say that drinking beer is worse than sneaking a cigarette or trying to spot pretty girls in the stands.


Is it, though? Granted, a pro athlete drinking beer during his team's game, even one in which he has no chance of participating, is unseemly and I wouldn't excuse it. But I remember when Red Sox TV broadcasts regularly caught Carl Yastrzemski smoking cigarettes in the runway between his at-bats. Do people really believe that smoking has no effect on performance? Bad enough that ballplayers smoke at all -- and back in the day I'd guess that most of them did (shoot, ballplayers used to advertise cigarettes) -- but during a game in which you're actually playing? And in sight of TV cameras?

But that was routine. The antics described in Ball Four, the "beaver shooting" and all, were far more shocking in their day than these beer-and-chicken incidents seem today. In the era before every game was televised, and those that were only used two or three cameras, the stuff that used to go on right out in the bullpen would probably cause the media and talk-radio schoolmarms of today to blow a blood vessel.

#139 joyofsox


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:04 AM

If nothing else, this whole affair is a textbook in how NOT to handle a "scandal" in terms of public relations. Certainly with regard to the players anyway. The best thing to do as soon as any of these "drinking" allegations surfaced, what, a week or two ago, was for all of the players involved to get out in front of it, come clean with what they did and didn't do and present a (hopefully) sympathetic, contrite and honest face to their side of the story. Wouldn't stop the scandal, but it would, as they say, contain it.

Instead, they sit by passively as the steady drip drip drip of anonymous and unsourced allegations continues nonstop. So by the time something like "drinking in the clubhouse" comes out, their denials (issued through and crafted by a PR department) become irrelevant.


You're right, unless what they did was actually a lot worse than what was mentioned in the initial articles. Then maybe it was a good idea to keep quiet and hope that the really bad stuff does not come out. No sense confessing to stuff that might never become public -- just weather the small storm (relatively speaking).

#140 terrynever

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:09 AM

Somewhere high in the sky, Babe Ruth is having a good laugh over all this Red Sox stuff.

#141 jose melendez


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:12 AM

Count me among the group that thinks this is a legit story and a big deal.

1. They all pitched like shit down the stretch (and Lackey all year)
2. Conditioning seems to have been a problem.
3. We'll never know what Tito did behind the scenes, but that's a huge fuck you to the manager.
4. I kind of wonder if one or more of these guys has a drinking problem... not healthy behavior.
5. It absolutely reeks of not giving a shit--this is what bothers me the most. If you're doing well, you can get away with shit. When you're going South, grow the fuck up.

#142 barbed wire Bob


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:17 AM

I agree wholeheartedly with the second point in your post. It's on management if they saw this stuff going on and didn't make an effort to adopt and enforce standards for behavior and conditioning. If they're the ones leaking this garbage to get their point across to the team that this won't be tolerated any more, that's a pretty crappy way to get your message out to your employees and it makes you look reasonably incompetent as a management structure. That is by far the most alarming piece of this whole episode to me.

But the bolded part, I completely disagree with. Maybe architects and engineers are different from the rest of the professional world but all three offices I've worked in were OK with a couple of beers on Friday afternoon and I'm pretty sure that some of the structural engineers I work with do the same. I'm sure schools and manufacturing are a different story.

I don't know how to react to the allegations of lax training or "caring about the team" because I have no idea how and if it affected the team. Blame luck for the two more wins the RS should have had. Blame luck for Beckett's ankle and Buchholz' back. Neither of those things happen and we're quite possibly still playing. Drinking and xbox in the clubhouse, fatass pitchers and all.


In the '90s I worked at a biotech company and, every Friday after 5, the company would have a "fermentation seminar" in the parking lot. IIRC, they eventually stopped the practice because of liability issues (they also went bankrupt but I don't if there was any correlation between the bankruptcy and the beer drinking). The last thing a company needs is an employee getting tanked at a company sponsored event and then causing an accident while driving drunk. To me, the drink beer thing by itself is a tempest in a teapot, but , when you look at April and september, it is indicative of a lax, undisciplined organization.

Edited by barbed wire Bob, 19 October 2011 - 10:18 AM.


#143 jose melendez


  • Earl of Acie


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:17 AM

At least it wasn't Bud Light Lime.

Yeah, that brought down General MyChrystal.

#144 Rooster Crows

  • 982 posts

Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:44 AM

That is just not the case. Management is responsible for setting the tone of workplace performance and decorum. In this case it falls directly on Tito and to some degree Theo. I for one will be a very happy Red Sox fan when a new coach is named and Ben C. takes over as the general manager. The players made mistakes for sure, but the management set the tone for it to be able to happen. This can and will be cleaned up as soon as new management is in place and sensible rules for locker room and club house behavior are set and enforced.


How do you know Tito didn't try to stop it, but didn't get the support from management - at whatever level - to back it up. Maybe he tried to, someof the boys complained and Henry invited them to his yacht to make up for it . . . .or whatever. Whether or not Tito should be the one to bear sole responsibility for it - as in the buck stops here - doesn't mean he didn't take proactive steps to put a stop to it. Indeed, his own comments - about his concerns about the increasing level of self-centeredness and failure to be supportive - seem to suggest he did.

#145 SumnerH


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:36 AM

But the bolded part, I completely disagree with. Maybe architects and engineers are different from the rest of the professional world but all three offices I've worked in were OK with a couple of beers on Friday afternoon and I'm pretty sure that some of the structural engineers I work with do the same. I'm sure schools and manufacturing are a different story.


Ditto every office I've worked in. And I don't recall any righteous indignation when it came out that the 2004 team was drinking before a playoff game. It really looks like these sorts of things get spun based on results, rather than being primary causes of those results.

Of course, the 2004 team was highly conditioned and would never eat fried chicken.

Posted Image

#146 reggiecleveland


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 11:46 AM

The Mets collapse had no where close to this kind of media scrutiny.


Correct and that point out some differences between the two situations that have nothing to do with the people in the clubhouse or front office. the Mets have not had success for a while and also share the spotlight with the Yankees. if the Mets had collapsed in the mid 80s when they were the big guns in town it may have been different. My point is the intnesity of the media spotlight is a big factor in the attention.

#147 Snodgrass'Muff


  • smarter as Lucen


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:04 PM

Although, I'm having fun watching yecul lose his shit over this. OH THE MORAL OUTRAGE!!!


No shit. I've subscribed to his posts. It's fucking outstanding.

#148 yecul


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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:32 PM

If you think it's about moral outrage, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Go Sox. Yay?

#149 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

  • 3189 posts

Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:34 PM

Correct and that point out some differences between the two situations that have nothing to do with the people in the clubhouse or front office. the Mets have not had success for a while and also share the spotlight with the Yankees. if the Mets had collapsed in the mid 80s when they were the big guns in town it may have been different. My point is the intnesity of the media spotlight is a big factor in the attention.


Just reminds me that the 1986 Mets in particular engaged in far, far worse behavior than any of this and it didn't seem to affect their performance much. Keith Hernandez was having a beer in the clubhouse during the infamous Game 6 when he assumed that game was "over."

Again, the reasons for baseball failure and success are much, more complex than anything we're hearing. But it seems like no one right now is willing to do the type of real analysis it will take to understand what really happened. Well, I hope the FO is doing it. They say they are, but who knows, these days?

EDIT: I would also add that the effort ti understand that kind of complexity is the reason I came to this board in the first place and have stayed on here for nearly a decade now. I feel like we're getting away from that right now, though I suppose to an extent it's understandable.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 19 October 2011 - 12:37 PM.


#150 dcmissle


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  • 11176 posts

Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:38 PM

Somewhere high in the sky, Babe Ruth is having a good laugh over all this Red Sox stuff.


These days, you probably wouldn't have our current media shitshow with a team actually in the World Series.

But if we did, and the Red Sox were opening against the Cardinals tonight, and St. Louis decided to open the WS as it did in 1982, when a Clydesdale team carried 80+ yr-old Augie Busch into the stadium, with the Budweiser jingle playing again, and again ...

That would be awesome.

Edited by dcmissle, 19 October 2011 - 12:39 PM.





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