169 replies to this topic

[Foulkey Reese]

Red Sox pitcher Jon Lester admitted today that he drank beer in the clubhouse during games this season and that, "it was the wrong thing to do." But he was adamant that such behavior was not to blame for the team's September collapse.

"There's a perception out there that we were up there getting hammered and that wasn't the case," Lester told The Globe via telephone from his home in Georgia. "Was it a bad habit? Yes. I should have been on the bench more than I was. But we just played bad baseball as a team in September. We stunk. To be honest, we were doing the same things all season when we had the best record in baseball."

"I love Tito and he did a great job for us when he was here. On a personal level I was more than grateful for what he did for me and my family," Lester said. "But there comes a time when your authority is no longer there. You kind of run your course. People who knew how Tito was and we pushed the envelope with it. We never had rules, we never that that iron-fist mentality. It you screwed up, he called you on it. That was how it worked.

"I never say guys purposely breaking rules or doing the wrong thing in front of him and rubbing it in his face. But this particular team probably needed more structure."

Some interesting stuff in here. About time one of those guys spoke up.

Nice to see him openly admitting that they pushed Tito to see what they could get away with. Very mature for a 27 year old millionaire.

http://www.boston.co...ester_spea.html

Edit: Sherman has a point.

Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
Joelsherman1
Also, Lester says was grateful what Francona did for him/family, but so grateful that at Tito's time need what did he do? #drinkbeer

http://twitter.com/#!/Joelsherman1

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 17 October 2011 - 10:52 AM.

[rembrat]

Who the fuck wrote this? It's littered with typos and mistakes.

[TheGoldenGreek33]

He didn't really answer anything.

Why did you and Beckett suck in Sept., Jon? If the beer and fried chicken didn't lead to you two being gased in the 4th inning, then what did?

This is not news. Yet another lazy job by Pete.

Edited by TheGoldenGreek33, 17 October 2011 - 10:36 AM.

[scotian1]

Basically confirms that Francona had lost control of these guys and gave them too much credit for being mature and responsible.

[Corsi]

"But there comes a time when your authority is no longer there. You kind of run your course"

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

[Gambler7]

This is not news. Yet another lazy job by Pete.

Did you not read it? How is that interview with Lester not news? I'd say Lester admitting it may have been a time for change in manager and talking about the details of what went on and the structure of the clubhouse in more detail than we have heard yet is most definitely news.

Edit: Corsi, I agree, and it's pretty insulting to Francona. It is strange though that after all the stories you read and hear about how at one point Francona was like a father figure to Lester and now hear that they haven't even spoken since he left, just text messages. You have wonder if Francona was just completely burnt out and gave up trying to reach these guys, or if the personal stuff was affecting him and the team more than we know, and the guys lost all respect for him (and themselves).

Edited by Gambler7, 17 October 2011 - 10:41 AM.

[JBill]

Basically confirms that Francona had lost control of these guys and gave them too much credit for being mature and responsible.

Especially someone like Lester, who he had a relationship with and probably thought he could trust not to act like this.

[Foulkey Reese]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

You're not alone. More than one of those quotes pissed me off. Seemed to admit that Tito gave them rope and treated them like adults and they took advantage of it. I think he comes off looking terrible.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

Eh, it's pretty much the same thing that Tito said too. It seems to me like Tito had been tuned out; and probably didn't have the drive or desire he used to have here. Seems like him moving on is likely in everyone's best interests.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 17 October 2011 - 10:43 AM.

[Corsi]

Eh, it's pretty much the same thing that Tito said too. It seems to me like Tito had been tuned out; and probably didn't have the drive or desire he used to have here. Seems like him moving on is likely in everyone's best interests.

Yeah, but Tito was just taking the high road.

Lester's high road should have been "Tito gave us some rope and we hung ourselves with it. That won't happen again next year."

[TheGoldenGreek33]

Did you not read it? How is that interview with Lester not news? I'd say Lester admitting it may have been a time for change in manager and talking about the details of what went on and the structure of the clubhouse in more detail than we have heard yet is most definitely news.

It was the biggest collapse in baseball regular season history and all we get out of our ace pitcher is a confirmation of what was already known?

I was expecting more.

[Foulkey Reese]

It was the biggest collapse in baseball regular season history and all we get out of our ace pitcher is a confirmation of what was already known?

I was expecting more.

FYI Abraham added more to the story after the link was posted here. 2-3 more paragraphs.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

Me too. It always pisses me off to hear somebody talk about their own failures of maturity and responsibility as if they were exterior circumstances. Tito "ran his course" and lost his authority because you chose to take advantage of him, Jon. It's not something that just happened, it's something that you (and others) did.

(I'm not saying that Tito doesn't hold some responsibility, of course, and from a strictly neutral POV it's probably true that he was no longer able to manage these guys effectively, and therefore made the right decision. But Lester shouldn't be thinking about that, he should be thinking about the way he fucked up and helped make it happen.)

[yecul]

At least he was honest about some stuff, but they needed to delve more into the suckage. Everyone happened to suck at the same time may certainly be the answer, but there's an abundance of smoke that needs to be accounted for before that can be accepted.

Anyway, isn't there now some disagreement on the conditioning and dedication to the programs? Francona or whoever said that was lacking, correct?

[triniSox]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

Yep this quote jars me a little. To me it reads, "well it's his fault it got out of control. If it was that bad, he should have stopped us."

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

Lester seems to modify drinking during games by stating that they were doing it all year when they were playing well. This doesn't fly with me. No job permits you to show up and get a buzz. I get he wasn't pitching, but where's the solidarity? Maybe learn something about why the pitching collectively sucked by observing instead of getting tanked? Yeah he was honest, but the way I read it, there was a brazenness in his answer. That could just be the way I read it though. There's still no accountability in this answer.

The starting pitching's drunken stupor will leave a hangover that lasts until opening day.

Edited by greek_gawd_of_walks, 17 October 2011 - 11:02 AM.

[JBill]

Yep this quote jars me a little. To me it reads, "well it's his fault it got out of control. If it was that bad, he should have stopped us."

What did John Henry do when he found out the team was sulking? Gave them new headphones and a ride on his boat. Can't treat them like adults apparently.

It was weird to read "I'm grateful for everything he's done for me and my family" and then the stuff about how he'd run his course. Little cold there Jon. I think he was depending on guys he had won with before to step up and provide leadership, and that didn't happen.

I just hope Tito's on a beach somewhere, tuning everything out.

[scotian1]

"I'm not a follower. I'm a grown-ass man. I made my decisions. He wasn't twisting my arm like I was in high school," Lester said. "Did I try to emulate him as a pitcher when I was younger? Sure I did because what he does works. Now, over time, I've tweaked what I do because that's what works for me.

At least he is taking responsibilty for acting like this all on his own.

[ragnarok725]

Me too. It always pisses me off to hear somebody talk about their own failures of maturity and responsibility as if they were exterior circumstances. Tito "ran his course" and lost his authority because you chose to take advantage of him, Jon. It's not something that just happened, it's something that you (and others) did.

(I'm not saying that Tito doesn't hold some responsibility, of course, and from a strictly neutral POV it's probably true that he was no longer able to manage these guys effectively, and therefore made the right decision. But Lester shouldn't be thinking about that, he should be thinking about the way he fucked up and helped make it happen.)

Jon Lester admitted today that he drank beer in the clubhouse during games this season and that, "it was the wrong thing to do."
"Was it a bad habit? Yes. I should have been on the bench more than I was. But we just played bad baseball as a team in September. We stunk."
"People who knew how Tito was and we pushed the envelope with it."
"... this particular team probably needed more structure."

I can see why people don't especially like the quote from Lester, but I think it's pretty clear that he's thinking about how he fucked up. That's what all the rest of the quotes from the article seem to indicate, no?

In terms of the "run his course" line - it's an acknowledgement of what Francona said about not being able to reach the team anymore. It seems like just fact, not perception. Lester, in the same interview, admits fault by saying that they pushed Tito with the amount of freedom they were given.

My guess is that the relationship between Francona/Lester got exaggerated in the media because it made a good heartfelt storyline, and now the departure is being exaggerated in the media because it makes for a good muckraking storyline. It was probably never as good or bas as it seems.

Edited by ragnarok725, 17 October 2011 - 11:07 AM.

[Clears Cleaver]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

nope, should piss anyone off. Even though Tito admitted it and maybe that is what Lester is trying to say, it comes across poorly. It is a passive aggressive way of not taking personal responsibility.

[Sinistas]

The fact that he considers drinking on the job to be the same as drinking a coke is just as troubling to me as the Tito stuff.

[scotian1]

It still bothers me that both Francona and Epstein were not willing/able to address these issues.

[JimD]

Maybe I'm the one who's in the minority, but I think Francona isn't getting nearly enough criticism for mentally checking out on the job. I can understand why Henry and the owners were upset - if Tito wasn't up to doing the job anymore then he should have stepped down. This also doesn't reflect well on Theo.

This is by no means a defense of the actions of Lester and the others, but even talented teams need a firm hand on the controls.

[Super Nomario]

He didn't really answer anything.

Why did you and Beckett suck in Sept., Jon? If the beer and fried chicken didn't lead to you two being gased in the 4th inning, then what did?

This is not news. Yet another lazy job by Pete.

Lester's bad September basically comes down to one start - the 2 2/3 IP, 8 R stinkbomb he laid against the Yanks. Other than that, he had a pretty normal Lester month - a brilliant start, a couple good ones, a couple so-so ones. They went 1-5 in his starts largely because the offense scored 2, 14, 1, 3, 1, and 3 runs in them.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Lester's bad September basically comes down to one start - the 2 2/3 IP, 8 R stinkbomb he laid against the Yanks. Other than that, he had a pretty normal Lester month - a brilliant start, a couple good ones, a couple so-so ones. They went 1-5 in his starts largely because the offense scored 2, 14, 1, 3, 1, and 3 runs in them.

Not true at all: he also had a terrible game against TB on 9/11 where he allowed 11 baserunners over 4 innings in a crucial loss.

[EddieYost]

It was like having a Coke in terms of how it affected you.

Really? That's troubling that he doesn't understand just how untrue this is. I guess I am naive. I did read Ball 4, but I always assumed that the beer in the clubhouse was for after games.

[ragnarok725]

Maybe I'm the one who's in the minority, but I think Francona isn't getting nearly enough criticism for mentally checking out on the job. I can understand why Henry and the owners were upset - if Tito wasn't up to doing the job anymore then he should have stepped down. This also doesn't reflect well on Theo.

This is by no means a defense of the actions of Lester and the others, but even talented teams need a firm hand on the controls.

I think I'm with you on this. If players always did the right thing on their own, there would be no need for a manager. The in-game decision making is only a small part of his job. It seems like he failed monumentally in the more significant part of the job - building a durable, unified clubhouse.

[Super Nomario]

Not true at all: he also had a terrible game against TB on 9/11 where he allowed 11 baserunners over 4 innings in a crucial loss.

Yes, the stinkbomb wasn't his only bad start, but apart from that one start his numbers were basically in line with his season numbers.

[redsox2020]

Can we not equate drinking in baseball to drinking in the "real world"? Having a few drinks when there's absolutely zero chance you'll play isn't the same as getting hammered while performing open heart surgery. Sure I understand how it's disrespectful or whatever, but I haven't seen anything to indicate anybody had a problem with it at the time. At least not enough to speak up about it.

[Rasputin]

On Friday we started with $170

Why did you and Beckett suck in Sept., Jon? If the beer and fried chicken didn't lead to you two being gased in the 4th inning, then what did?

Have you never seen a pitcher pitch poorly despite excellent preparation?

Yes you have.

You're applying an explanation to something that doesn't need one and while the explanation may seem to fit that doesn't mean it is necessarily accurate. You have to accept some uncertainty. It may be conditioning or it may be just dumb luck or it may be something we haven't yet considered.

When you assume your answer is the right one there is a decent chance you're going to screw things up.

Regardless, the fact that Lester admits being in the wrong means he can be fixed.

[JMDurron]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

I don't think you're in the minority. It may be a true statement, but the timing and the source of it don't make me any less pissed off. Given the time that has passed between Francona's departure and this interview, it's entirely possible that Lester is just using that line as an excuse, because Francona put it out there as cover for others. If he had spoken to someone within 24 hours of Francona's departure/press conference, I'd be more inclined that he really believed that, and wasn't just getting pushed by his agent/some PR guy to try to rehabilitate his image. The statement is annoying on its own, if potentially true, but the timing reeks of "see how things play out for a while, then engage in damage control" to me.

[MannysDestination]

Can we not equate drinking in baseball to drinking in the "real world"? Having a few drinks when there's absolutely zero chance you'll play isn't the same as getting hammered while performing open heart surgery. Sure I understand how it's disrespectful or whatever, but I haven't seen anything to indicate anybody had a problem with it at the time. At least not enough to speak up about it.

It's the same as drinking beer at lunch while at work, in my opinion. If you get a beer with your lunch every few months it's no big deal, but even if you *can* do your job after a beer with lunch, you don't want to be the guy who gets a beer with lunch every single day, or even one a week every week. It's a symptom of poor discipline and disrespect for the workplace. Are there places of employment where people do that in the real world? Of course there are, and some are probably model employees, but this is, quite literally, not the minor leagues. In the "real world" you call abstaining from alcohol during the workday "best practices"; in the world of professional sports the MLB club should be held to best practices.

[Al Zarilla]

Lester's a pretty big and strong guy. Instead of assuming manager's authority, control or whatever runs its course, he could have shoved a guy or two into a wall like we heard Crawford did in Tampa Bay. He was Tito's boy, like a son, stuff like that. Instead of joining the clubhouse frivolity, he had a chance to be a leader and help straighten things out. Disappointed, Jon.

That said, like someone said, it's like a divorce in a way. We never hear the details from the sides, so it's hard to tell who's right, who's wrong. It's usually a combination of both.

[pedros hairstylist]

Or it could mean that they drink so much that one beer has no effect on their bodies -- so it is like a Coke.

Lester comes across like a selfish little prick especially after what Francona did for the guy when some managers would put the kid in his rear view mirror the second he realized Lester couldn't perform for a season or so. Overrated.

[yecul]

From April to August Lester had 1 start where he did not pitch past the 5th. That was July 5th vs TOR where he went 4 innings and was removed with a muscle pull.

In September he had 3 (5ip, 2.2ip, 4ip). The other starts were 7ip 0er, 7ip 4er and 6ip 2er.

It was definitely an atypical month for him.

[ThatsMyPeskyPole]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

I think it kinda throws tito under the bus but I like the honesty. It seems we like we do need a new manager.

[Paul M]

I don't care as much about the drinking since they were doing it all year and maybe earlier than that though I don't like the fact they were in the clubhouse and not on the bench. But, I take issue with Lester's point about pitchers gaining weight during the year and this is normal. It shouldn't be normal if they are getting in their cardio work and not eating like crap. Some of these guys looked visibly gassed by the middle innings and I would think after the kind of warm summer we had these guys would not be in worse shape in September but it has happened a few times over the last 6 years. I do agree that Francona and Theo should have been much more engaged and it sounds like maybe both had less efficacy than in earlier years and together with the lack of a real strong clubhouse leadership leads to teams not fighting through the long season and finishing on a high note.

[NomarRS05]

Can we not equate drinking in baseball to drinking in the "real world"? Having a few drinks when there's absolutely zero chance you'll play isn't the same as getting hammered while performing open heart surgery. Sure I understand how it's disrespectful or whatever, but I haven't seen anything to indicate anybody had a problem with it at the time. At least not enough to speak up about it.

I don't think the issue is as much "he had a beer in the clubhouse this one time" as the fact that conditioning seemed to be a secondary concern (if not entirely neglected altogether) to this pitching staff. The beers were symptomatic of their mentally with regards to staying in shape and on a larger scale their seeming indifference towards the team's overall goals.

Edited by NomarRS05, 17 October 2011 - 11:51 AM.

[sfip]

<"But there comes a time when your authority is no longer there. You kind of run your course">
Maybe I'm in the minority, but that quote pisses me off.

Lester's high road should have been "Tito gave us some rope and we hung ourselves with it. That won't happen again next year."

If anything, he insinuated they had too much freedom and screwed it up. He also said in the interview he thinks you'll have a lot of guys with chips on their shoulders next season to set things right.

As for the quote, if anything I interpreted it as Lester trying to let Francona off the hook by saying that when someone is in charge for too long there's not much he can do about it no matter who it is, which I've often heard coaches and managers say themselves. Before someone brings up Scioscia or LaRussa, there are exceptions to every rule.

[E5 Yaz]

I wonder how much of the reaction in this thread is from residual discontent.

Frankly, I found Lester's comments pretty commendable. People are looking for magic bullet answers about the collapse and maybe there just aren't any. Lester's "we just stunk," might be all there is. They stunk because they stunk.

The beer/Coke comment, I think PH interpreted the right way. Shouldn't have done, should have been more supportive by being on the bench more, but one beer (if that's accurate) didn't have much of an effect.

As to the Francona stuff, Lester made a clear distinction between Tito as manager and what he had done for Lester and his family personally. The fact that Lester thought it was time for a new voice as manager is no different that Francona saying the same thing.

To me, the most incisive comment was the one about having a stabilizing veteran presence on the roster. That speaks to Varitek's diminished ability to be respected due to his backup role and, like Francona, guys maybe tuning him out after so many years.

Lester has never been this open in the press, save for the period after his comeback from cancer. That he might not have said everything exactly perfectly for some ears is immaterial. I found this to be the first positive story to come out of the entire mess.

[rembrat]

Lester comes across like a selfish little prick especially after what Francona did for the guy when some managers would put the kid in his rear view mirror the second he realized Lester couldn't perform for a season or so. Overrated.

Not to pick on you but... so?

Tito didn't will Lester to develop a devastating cutter. Lester would have been awesome in Boston or in Minnesota.

I’m afraid I don’t have a problem with what Lester said. Is anyone here motivated the same way they were 5 years ago? No, of course not. He is just being brutally honest about Tito running his course here and things getting stale. The only reason people’s butt hurt is because Tito was the most likeable guy we’ve had managing this team.

And it seems like he did address the weight issue. Scheduling can fuck with your weight even if you are getting your work in. Maybe the next logical step is to hire a live in chef that can travel with the team and prepare meals for them instead of having them eating whatever they can find at 4am which almost always is greasy fastfood.

We never had rules, we never had that iron-fist mentality. If you screwed up, he called you on it. That was how it worked.

Seems to me from this quote is that Tito stopped doing that for whatever the reason (burnt out, marriage problems, health issues...)

[drbretto]

I think a lot of you are going a little overboard with the Lester hate here. Perhaps I'm just reading it in a different tone.

While having a couple beers on your night off in the clubhouse is certainly disrespectful to the team, it's hard to blame the collapse on that. To be honest, except for the wording on the comments about Tito (and I could interpret those in a number of ways), I thought he came off as taking as much responsibility on himself as I could expect. Any more responsibility for the collapse and he'd be taking blame for things he didn't do, which would be just stupid. Everyone contributed.

And honestly, if everyone did take advantage of Tito, it really is sort of on him. Not in a blamable, "it's all your fault" sort of way, but in a "it's time for a new voice" sort of way. I understand that we're all trying so hard to have something specific to blame the season on but I just don't think it's that simple. If you really want one thing to pin it on, then just stick with Lackey. It's worked all season.

Regardless, I hope they really do have chips on their shoulders next season. It worked out pretty well for Ellsbury. I'd love to see what this team could do it they stayed focused and healthy for the entire season. Could have been some kind of wins record watch (team, but maybe even league if Lackey didn't suck so much).

[pedros hairstylist]

Not to pick on you but... so?

Tito didn't will Lester to develop a devastating cutter. Lester would have been awesome in Boston or in Minnesota.

I'm afraid I don't have a problem with what Lester said. Is anyone here motivated the same way they were 5 years ago? No, of course not. He is just being brutally honest about Tito running his course here and things getting stale. The only reason people's butt hurt is because Tito was the most likeable guy we've had managing this team.

And it seems like he did address the weight issue. Scheduling can fuck with your weight even if you are getting your work in. Maybe the next logical step is to hire a live in chef that can travel with the team and prepare meals for them instead of having them eating whatever they can find at 4am which almost always is greasy fastfood.


Seems to me from this quote is that Tito stopped doing that for whatever the reason (burnt out, marriage problems, health issues...)

So? So you don't treat people like that.

Scheduling: every professional athlete on earth has "scheduling" challenges. Do you honestly think a sprinter in track and field "gains" weight during the competition season and their coach says "hey, cool! This won't affect your performance at all!" Hell, tennis players play in tournaments every week or 2 weeks and they have to fly around the world to do so and play one-and-done matches at times that routinely range from 10am to 11pm. And hey Adrian Gonzalez, they aren't given advance notice of when they'll be asked to play until the night before. Lester's got a bunch of excuses that don't hold up.

[drbretto]

Speaking of the scheduling, has anyone brought up the issue of the 8 and a half million rain delays and how that may affect performance, particularly in pitching? I would think that starting pitchers especially would be creatures of habit in that they are conditioned to pitch on that 5th day, only to warm up and end up having to pitch the following afternoon in a double header. I could imagine that having a negative effect over the course of the season in terms of preparedness, or whatever, and not necessarily affect that next start in particular.

Maybe I'm just way off base, I don't know. But the entire east coast was out by the end of the first round of playoffs.

Edited by drbretto, 17 October 2011 - 12:15 PM.

[Al Zarilla]

Speaking of the scheduling, has anyone brought up the issue of the 8 and a half million rain delays and how that may affect performance, particularly in pitching? I would think that starting pitchers especially would be creatures of habit in that they are conditioned to pitch on that 5th day, only to warm up and end up having to pitch the following afternoon in a double header. I could imagine that having a negative effect over the course of the season in terms of preparedness, or whatever, and not necessarily affect that next start in particular.

Maybe I'm just way off base, I don't know. But the entire east coast was out by the end of the first round of playoffs.

The Yankees had the most rain affected games and they finished first, easily.

[El Tiante]

I have a hard time trying to understand how a professional athlete, in season, can get fatter and justify it. Even if travel is an issue. What are you doing all the other days you aren't travelling? If you are committed to your day off programs, get in your running, take your diet seriously, then it shouldn't be a problem for a 27 year old elite athlete to stay in good physical condition DURING HIS SEASON! Am I missing something here?

[rembrat]

So? So you don't treat people like that.

Scheduling: every professional athlete on earth has "scheduling" challenges. Do you honestly think a sprinter in track and field "gains" weight during the competition season and their coach says "hey, cool! This won't affect your performance at all!" Hell, tennis players play in tournaments every week or 2 weeks and they have to fly around the world to do so and play one-and-done matches at times that routinely range from 10am to 11pm. And hey Adrian Gonzalez, they aren't given advance notice of when they'll be asked to play until the night before. Lester's got a bunch of excuses that don't hold up.

I'm not seeing how Lester treated Tito "like that" maybe you can expand on this a bit more.

And pitchers aren't cardiofreaks like sprinters and tennis players who can eat a shit ton because they burn so many calories training and competing, sorta like Michael Phelps. It's a bad analogy. Sprinters train to give max effort in a short amount of time and Tennis players are endurance athletes. Pitchers just have to gear it up for a second or two every 20 seconds (in between a pitch) for like 15 pitches an inning.

[JBill]

He is just being brutally honest about Tito running his course here and things getting stale. The only reason people’s butt hurt is because Tito was the most likeable guy we’ve had managing this team.

This is true, but it also feels like Tito is getting it from all sides and that is part of what I think people are reacting to with Lester's comments. Except for Pedroia, none of the players have come to his defense. He gets smeared in the paper, possibly by someone in ownership or connected to ownership. It just feels unfair and disproportionate to his role in the collapse. On the other hand, Theo is also a likeable guy that has had immense success with the team, and most people are sorry to see leave, but he hasn't been attacked or criticized publicly in the way Tito has, despite the fact that he could also have been distracted thinking about another job for months.

Edited by JBill, 17 October 2011 - 12:27 PM.

[drbretto]

The Yankees had the most rain affected games and they finished first, easily.

And then went out in the first round.

I'm not saying that necessarily means anything, or that it would be the singular cause of anything, but maybe the clubhouse turmoil plus the delays contributed. Maybe the yankees make better use of the delay time. Either way, it's no less made up a theory than 75% of the de facto reasons suggested on this board. My overall point still being that there's no one thing that caused the collapse and trying to find something to point a finger at is useless.

[Savin Hillbilly]

He is just being brutally honest about Tito running his course here and things getting stale. The only reason people's butt hurt is because Tito was the most likeable guy we've had managing this team.

I'm not really concerned about Tito here. I'm concerned about Lester and his mindset. There's a fine line in some situations between being "brutally honest" and copping out, and I think he's on the wrong side of it. I find that a little disappointing, but it's probably nothing that a tougher manager and some introspection over the winter can't fix.

EDIT: To be clear about what I mean when I say "copping out," I'll reiterate: Explaining why you took advantage of your supervisor's trust in you by saying "We needed more structure" is not how a grownup talks. It's how a 15-year-old talks. From someone that age, it would be reasonable, appropriate, maybe even surprisingly insightful. But from a 27-year-old professional, it's just lame.

Edited by Savin Hillbilly, 17 October 2011 - 12:34 PM.