602 replies to this topic

[JimD]

Mugsys Jock, on 12 October 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

The guy I'm not hearing much about that I'm most concerned about is Ellsbury. To me, he's the bright young star who could be the leader of the next generation of Red Sox success... but all this shit has to leave him wondering why he'd want to stick around Boston. There should be some serious sucking up in his direction, fast.

He's a Boras client - he's staying only if ownership does the free agent dance and then outbids everyone else for his services.

[zenter]

Oil Can Dan, on 12 October 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Seems to me that if Sox management intended to leak that Francona's impending divorce was a factor in him not returning as manager next season, that they'd have had that leaked at the time he was let go. And they did not. That should tell you something...

Your speculation about how the FO operates should tell us something about how they operated? What should it be telling us? (sorry for the snark, but this seems more speculative than this thread already is)

Do we know that these "inside sources" are upper management (vs middle)? I cannot tell if it's a couple mid-level people with an axe to grind. Who knows, the tenor of the article may have come from a particular disgruntled worker while some of the facts come from a higher-up. The language is spun just right to insinuate but not accuse Theo of mismanagement. Maybe it's the fanboy in me, but given the nature of Boston sports "reporting", I tend to think this is a reporter trying to influence the Sox. But, as others have stated, I guess it's possible that the FO is using media manipulation as they have in the past.

[Al Zarilla]

Pumpsie, on 12 October 2011 - 07:45 AM, said:

BTW, the John Kruk quote wasn't tied to drinking beer in the clubhouse. Kruk was noticed by a woman at an airport. She came up to him and inquired if he was an athlete and he replied "No, m'am, I'm a baseball player."

So a random woman comes up to a random fat guy at the airport and asks if he's an athlete?

[Pumpsie]

Al Zarilla, on 12 October 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

So a random woman comes up to a random fat guy at the airport and asks if he's an athlete?

Yup, that's how Kruk tells it.

[Doctor G]

Savin Hillbilly, on 12 October 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

I kind of doubt that. I mean, Beckett was here for years, and so was Lester, and while there occasional grumblings about Beckett's conditioning and general seriousness, there never seemed to be major issues with either of them. Lackey comes in last year, and eighteen months later they're the Three Brewsketeers and the key suspects in a clubhouse train wreck. I know correlation /= causation, but the correlation here is mighty strong.

What has happened to this team since Lackey's arrival reminds me a little of Bill James' essay in one of his Historical Abstracts about the detrimental effect of Hal Chase on the morale and unity of the teams he played for back in the dead-ball era. Of course we're not talking about corruption here--at least not that kind--but it just seems like we're seeing the same kind of story.

In short, I think Lackey's the ringleader. Not that that lets Beckett and Lester off the hook or anything.

The most disturbing element to me is the claim that the clubhouse fried chicken and beer parties was something that started in Sept. 2010.
This coincides with the pitchers probably realizing that John Farrell was on his way to Toronto.
If management was aware of this last year , it should have been addressed in spring training as something that would not be tolerated in 2011.
This is on Management and by extension the new pitching coach Curt Young.

[flymrfreakjar]

JimD, on 12 October 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

He's a Boras client - he's staying only if ownership does the free agent dance and then outbids everyone else for his services.

Just like Jered Weaver.

[Dogman2]

To me, putting the pieces back together here in Boston would be a much bigger challenge than starting from almost nothing in Chicago.

[ShaneTrot]

I love JFK quotes and one of my favorites is 'Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.' No one is going to take total blame here. It appears to be a moral collapse of the clubhouse, managerial ineffectiveness and the failure of the front office to bolster the club before and when the shit hit the fan. I wonder if Henry and LL are thinking a new GM has carte blanche to ship out Theo's acquisitions.

[bosockboy]

Doctor G, on 12 October 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

The most disturbing element to me is the claim that the clubhouse fried chicken and beer parties was something that started in Sept. 2010.
This coincides with the pitchers probably realizing that John Farrell was on his way to Toronto.
If management was aware of this last year , it should have been addressed in spring training as something that would not be tolerated in 2011.
This is on Management and by extension the new pitching coach Curt Young.

Great point...this all coincided with Farrell's departure; my guess is he was the hammer in the clubhouse.

[rembrat]

flymrfreakjar, on 12 October 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

Just like Jered Weaver.

Weaver is a Cali boy by birth. Ellsbury has no such affiliations to the East Coast.

[ShaneTrot]

Dogman2, on 12 October 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

To me, putting the pieces back together here in Boston would be a much bigger challenge than starting from almost nothing in Chicago.

Really. Next April, the Sox are going to trot out a line up that most likely contain Gonzalez, Pedroia, Ellsbury, and Youk and a pitching staff with Beckett, Buchholz, Lester, and Bard. That is a much better foundation than the Cubs have.

[The Gray Eagle]

This article is not just leaks from ownership. You can tell that there are multiple sources at different levels with the knives out-- some who wanted to make certain players look bad, some that wanted to make Francona look bad, and some that wanted to make Epstein look bad. Hohler is looking for as much dirt as he can get for this story, so he can use stuff from all angles and all sources with differing agendas.

Some of had to come from people connected to ownership (the bit about how Crawford is Theo's fault) some from front office personnel, and some from uniformed personnel. So there are multiple people around the team trying to trash each other in the press and pointing fingers publicly. Wonderful.

There probably is some truth to most of the stuff in the article, but there obviously is a lot of slanting going on too. The Francona rumors being in there is clearly coming from someone who wants to tarnish him. Ugly rumors about his personal life that he vehemently denied should never have been in an article in the sports section of a supposedly responsible newspaper.

There is some truth in the article somewhere. "You know what they said? Well some of it was true!" But it should all be taken with a grain of salt, because it's clearly coming from people with agendas who are using the press to further their goals. Boston is all about sports, politics and revenge. And the media is there to fan the flames.

It's ugly, but going forward, it doesn't change much-- we already wanted Lackey gone, Francona's gone, Theo's probably gone, we knew some of the pitchers were acting like d-bags. This doesn't change much of anything, although it might keep the fans from being angry if players like Beckett or Youks were traded. I don't think that should happen for baseball reasons though. Lackey needs to go because he sucks in every way possible, Varitek and Wakefield will be gone, a new manager will be in the clubhouse, and the players who return will have been publicly shamed. There's no need to rip up the entire roster.

[dcmissle]

rembrat, on 12 October 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

Weaver is a Cali boy by birth. Ellsbury has no such affiliations to the East Coast.

Even when he is God, the agent in the end still works for the client.

I'd love to hand the keys to this club to Pedroia, Ellsbury , A-Gon and -- after a talking to -- Lester. I'd be tempted to ship out almost everyone else (save Bard) for the right price, and that includes every son-of-a-bitch who acted unprofessionally down the stretch. For the ones who remain, I'd bring in an enforcer -- yes, Farrell was intimidating.

Am I willing to take a step back to get the kind of team we can count on in a couple of years? Yup.

[soxfan121]

Dogman2, on 12 October 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

To me, putting the pieces back together here in Boston would be a much bigger challenge than starting from almost nothing in Chicago.

I respectfully disagree. While the Red Sox have talented problems, the Cubs have problems with talent. Just about every baseball "insider" you'll find will state the Cubs have two or three pieces, total and a sub-par farm system. Aside from Castro & Garza - where's the top-level talent? The Cubs will certainly have money to spend but their best trade chits are relief pitchers nearing 30. Their big money guys are, arguably, more useless than the Red Sox biggest wastes of cash. No one liked my idea of swapping Theo, Lackey & Crawford for Soriano, Zambrano & Marshall, even though it saves the Sox nearly $100M. Simply swapping Soriano for Lackey discussions would divide this forum, and Lackey is arguably the most hated Red Sox player in the last 50 years.

The Cubs are, minimum, three years from contention. The Red Sox are much closer than that, despite recent rampant (and deserved) pessimism.

[bosockboy]

A dying medium like print journalism savors an opportunity like this; it's one last day in the sun for them and a chance to puff their chest out and sell a few papers.

They salivate for a tale of dysfunction like this.

[Foulkey Reese]

Merloni is on WEEI saying that the famous team meeting after the 14-0 win in Toronto was focused on Josh Beckett and that the other players were annoyed that they had to sit there and listen to it after they just crushed the BJs.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 12 October 2011 - 09:46 AM.

[Doctor G]

The end result of all this dirty laundry hopefully will be a lot of dirty water. I expect the team to go the hard ass route with the new manager and staff.
This leaking also has the side benefit of allowing the team to hire someone who is not as PR friendly with the media as Tito was. That aspect of the job is rendered pretty unimportant by this barrage of shit.

[pedros hairstylist]

I am most disturbed that the doomsday, "BLOW IT UP!!!" sports talk radio contingency may actually be right here.

[bosockboy]

After all of this, can a newbie manager take this on?

This situation reeks of needing an extreme asskicker.

[Oil Can Dan]

zenter, on 12 October 2011 - 09:25 AM, said:

Your speculation about how the FO operates should tell us something about how they operated? What should it be telling us? (sorry for the snark, but this seems more speculative than this thread already is)

I am not really speculating on anything. Here's a fact - Francona's divorce was not leaked two weeks ago when it was announced he'd not be back. Here's another fact - Francona is separated from his wife of almost 30 years and he's reportedly been living in a hotel for quite awhile now. Now here's some speculation - the Sox brass knew about that two weeks ago. As far as speculation goes that's pretty light.

So what this should be telling you is that if the Sox brass was interested in leaking this information at any point in time, then the best time for them to have done that was two weeks ago when everyone was throwing stones at them for 'running Francona out of town'. But that did not happen, and so then I question those who on this thread have been throwing stones at the Sox brass for leaking this information now.

I don't see why that's hard to understand or follow.

[CJChap]

brs3, on 12 October 2011 - 09:08 AM, said:

The only disappointing aspect of the Red Sox ownership is their continued use of the media to protect their product when a member of the organization departs. Rarely(ever?) does someone leave in a positive light.

I fully expect details to come out that paint Theo in a even slightly less than positive light, but it'll conveniently come out after the Red Sox have secured their compensation for Theo going to the Cubs.

I'm sure other people have chimed in, but I don't want to sort through a myriad of pages of the thread. The ownership knows the fan base eats this up, regardless of truth or history of the person, or what they meant to the organization.

I'm grateful for the championships, and the general quality of the team in this ownership era. However, 'Inside The Collapse' is another example of needing to take everything with a grain of salt when comments are tossed in by unnamed organization members.

Its like this in every aspect of business. You utilize the media to protect your product and even expand its reach.

And why is it necessarily the ownership that's dropping the dimes? Why couldn't it be certain players? What about other coaches? Other reporters could have seen it going on while they were in the clubhouse. This happens everywhere- when someone in big business leaves, there's nothing to protect them like there was when they were there. A Red Sox player is far less likely to go dropping dimes on clubhouse secrets when Tito is the manager, than after he's gone.

There were three reporters credited with this story. Not just one getting all his information from ownership. My guess is that each reporter went after it from different angles/group of sources. Christ, Tito's camp could very well be a source of info regarding the players.

[BroodsSexton]

Doctor G, on 12 October 2011 - 09:47 AM, said:

The end result of all this dirty laundry hopefully will be a lot of dirty water. I expect the team to go the hard ass route with the new manager and staff.
This leaking also has the side benefit of allowing the team to hire someone who is not as PR friendly with the media as Tito was. That aspect of the job is rendered pretty unimportant by this barrage of shit.

I think I would reach exactly the opposite conclusion. There is going to be a constant effort by the press to stir shit up next year based upon the expectations set by these stories. If they don't have a manager who knows how to handle the press, making strides with the team is going to be that much more difficult.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Foulkey Reese, on 12 October 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

Merloni is on WEEI saying that the famous team meeting after the 14-0 win in Toronto was focused on Josh Beckett and that the other players were annoyed that they had to sit there and listen to it after they just crushed the BJs.

If there is one thing we can all agree that we respect it is a bunch of millionaire athletes griping about a minor inconvenience concerning their work performance.

[Foulkey Reese]

Jed Zeppelin, on 12 October 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

If there is one thing we can all agree that we respect it is a bunch of millionaire athletes griping about a minor inconvenience concerning their work performance.

John Henry should have given them another pair of $300 headphones...

[HomeBrew1901]

dcmissle, on 12 October 2011 - 09:04 AM, said:

When and in what context? That matters tremendously because it gets to the issue of trust.

Theo issued a call to circle the wagons. Reasonable if you assume a good faith effort on everyone's part to fix things, and because nobody wins from these pissing contests, ever.

And yet sources -- plural -- pin Crawford on him when they know Hohler is writing an article chronicling, very specifically, why things fell apart.

Christ, this is the very issue Theo wanted addressed before he returned. And make no mistake about it -- it's gratuitous bullshit productive of nothing and was undeserved because Theo threw nobody under the bus. Some people, quite sensibly, declined to talk to Hohler

Tom Warner went on The Sports Reporters show with Dan Shaugnessy hosting about 2 months ago on The Sports Hub and said exactly what was reported above. That there was a split in the FO about whether or not to sign Crawford and that Theo put a hard sell on the owners to sign him to the point of calling them in the wee hours while they were in Liverpool (IIRC).

At the time it seemed like Warner trying to deflect blame and counter rumors that the Crawford signing was mandated by ownership to boost ratings.

Overall, I thought it was a good article with some great information, but the two things that stink to me and make it look like a smear campaign was that there was absolutely no reason to add Francona's marriage problems or rumored drug dependency issues and which signings were Theo's.

I have no issue with reporting on how and why Francona lost the team and who inside the organization led to the collapse.

[Doctor G]

BroodsSexton, on 12 October 2011 - 09:54 AM, said:

I think I would reach exactly the opposite conclusion. There is going to be a constant effort by the press to stir shit up next year based upon the expectations set by these stories. If they don't have a manager who knows how to handle the press, making strides with the team is going to be that much more difficult.

Remember Girardi's first year in NY. there were an awful lot of "manager's decisions " in his postgame press conferences. I think we can expect that here.

[barbed wire Bob]

bosockboy, on 12 October 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

I think the sacrificial lamb here will be Beckett....I think they move on while he has strong trade value. They dump Lackey and eat his deal; and invest the Beckett money into Yu Darvish, and possibly sign Buehrle.

Beckett has the appearance of the ring leader here.

Beckett has 10-5 no trade rights. Maybe easier said than done.

[yecul]

Is this a smear campaign? A PR move? I don't think so. Oh, it will grease the skids on their exits and all that, but this is basically all legitimate stuff seeing print here. The Francona stuff I do not like as it's getting personal, but lacking conditioning, effort and desire? Hard to find fault in those tales.

The team is a mess. Honestly, they don't need to interview managers or GMs, they need to interview the players. As we found out this year all the talent in the world cannot possibly overcome the conditioning slop these guys are bathing in. So, if Beckett isn't going to get back on board, then we're not losing good Beckett we are losing September Beckett -- no big loss.

That said, Lackey is target #1. His arrival magically coincides with the beginning of these troubles and this mindset. He is not only the most likely responsible (alongside Beckett) but the easiest to lose. There is nothing to lose in Lackey -- he is awful and does not help the team on the field or off.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Pandemonium67, on 12 October 2011 - 01:43 AM, said:

Things in the clubhouse were 100 times worse than I thought. The lack of player leadership was stunning, and I imagine a major roster overhaul is the only cure.

Out: Tek, Wake, Lackey, probably Beckett, probably Youk and a few others who either were not in shape or cared more about stats than team.

On the fence: Papi (it pains me to say that)

Build around: Pedroia of course, Aceves, Papelbon (break the bank if you have to) and Ellsbury (ditto). Keep Lowrie as JE's binky.

Resurrect: Lester (while he was a huge disappointment, I hope like hell he's not a lost cause), Crawford

Add: A smart GM who will hire a manager who will not accept being tuned out by players.


I never would have believed both Tito and Theo were goners, but they are. I wish like hell this was the yankees imploding...

Beckett and Lester will both be back -- each one had a reputation hard work ad dedication under Farrell, and the frathouse culture of beer and video games was only noted as starting last year. There was one key pitching acquisition before then.

Yeah, Lackey really was a clubhouse cancer although it's painfully obvious why his teammates "love" him.


Bastard should divorce himself. As consolation in lieu of that, I can only hope he will never pitch for the Red Sox again.

[templeUsox]

So should this article on Beckett by Bradford been more of a concern when it came out in late-August:

Quote

"Baseball isn't my No. 1 priority anymore," he said. "Everybody goes through that change. Some people might go through that change before that even happens, but I definitely find myself thinking about [Holly and the baby] whereas a lot of times I used to be thinking about how I was going to get this guy out, or what I needed to do that day. They're my central focus."

A look at the making of the new Josh Beckett

[Terras]

I'm midway through my first reading right now and I'm having a hard time getting through it. It's very disappointing and upsetting, especially the bits about Tito. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to label it it a smear campaign, but the pieces about his drug use seem speculative and without substantial proof of having had a serious impact on this season versus any other. The hotel room I can understand the effect of but Tito's surgeries have been well-documented and his use of painkillers is nothing new. In his quotes Tito was seemingly forthcoming about his use and the fact that he spoke with a doctor. Tito has to take some blame for the collapse, yes, but he's already out. What more is to gain by suggesting the drugs had a role more than what anyone has confirmed? Concerns are concerns, not reports of Tito being fucked up in the clubhouse or office.

The reporting here is fair and presumably fact-based on that front, I guess I just don't understand the need to include that piece of the article.

[Dogman2]

yecul, on 12 October 2011 - 10:11 AM, said:

That said, Lackey is target #1. His arrival magically coincides with the beginning of these troubles and this mindset. He is not only the most likely responsible (alongside Beckett) but the easiest to lose. There is nothing to lose in Lackey -- he is awful and does not help the team on the field or off.

This is my exact mindset. Winning the WS in his rookie year did this. He is probably the most entitled, egotistical, worthless, excuse making, wife cheating disaster I have ever followed as a Sox fan. There is nothing likable on or off the field for this guy. Get. Him. Gone.

[twothousandone]

The Gray Eagle, on 12 October 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ugly rumors about his personal life that he vehemently denied should never have been in an article in the sports section of a supposedly responsible newspaper.

"We" are reading it and discussing it. Unless you believe the sourcing is irresponsible, I disagree they printed "rumors."

Quote

It appears to be a moral collapse of the clubhouse, managerial ineffectiveness and the failure of the front office to bolster the club before and when the shit hit the fan. I wonder if Henry and LL are thinking a new GM has carte blanche to ship out Theo's acquisitions.

Knowing then what I know now, I would have been in favor of a more aggressive push to acquire starting pitching. In addition to Bedard, do the Harden deal (Anderson + PTBNL.) Figure out what the Mets wanted for Capuano, and make that deal.

But when I look at their Aug/Sep stats, would they have made a difference? Perhaps they would have performed better on better teams, fighting for the playoffs. But I don't know about that. Where do they make the difference? In an 8-5 loss to Tampa? In a 7-5 loss to Baltimore? Miller had 2 Sep losses, Weiland 1. Does a trade for a started turn two of those into Ws? (Miller was pretty good in Aug.)
Does a RH OF bat turn the 1-0 loss to Toronto into a win? (Tor threw all RHs.) There's still an incredible level of bad luck in the September collapse. Without it, we probably don't get the picture that article paints.

[rembrat]

templeUsox, on 12 October 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

So should this article on Beckett by Bradford been more of a concern when it came out in late-August:
A look at the making of the new Josh Beckett

I see nothing wrong with that quote.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

This article just reminds me of how refreshingly free of the Red Sox soap opera for the past 10 years.

Sigh...

[BroodsSexton]

templeUsox, on 12 October 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

So should this article on Beckett by Bradford been more of a concern when it came out in late-August:
A look at the making of the new Josh Beckett

Quote

"There isn't going to be any me waving to anybody. When I'm gone, I'm going to disappear," Beckett insisted. "There isn't going to be anything where this is my last year and I'm getting the fanfare. This is what's going to happen: Everybody is going to show up to spring training, and somebody's going to say, 'Where's Josh?' Then one of my teammates that I've already told this to will say, 'That [expletive] is probably already retired.' They're not even going to know. They'll call me and I'll say, 'Yeah, I'm sitting in Cabo.' "

Uhh, yeah. I'd say that's cause for concern.

[CJChap]

templeUsox, on 12 October 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

So should this article on Beckett by Bradford been more of a concern when it came out in late-August:
A look at the making of the new Josh Beckett

Didn't Tom Brady say nearly the same thing when he started a family?

[Dogman2]

Old Hoss Radbourn

Quote

Excessive fried chicken and beer consumption was the main reason Atlanta fell so quickly to Gen. W. T. Sherman.

[jsinger121]

CJChap, on 12 October 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

Didn't Tom Brady say nearly the same thing when he started a family?

To give Tom a point in his direction at least he stays in tip top physical shape and still looks to get better.

Edited by jsinger121, 12 October 2011 - 10:33 AM.

[trekfan55]

Doctor G, on 12 October 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

The most disturbing element to me is the claim that the clubhouse fried chicken and beer parties was something that started in Sept. 2010.
This coincides with the pitchers probably realizing that John Farrell was on his way to Toronto.
If management was aware of this last year , it should have been addressed in spring training as something that would not be tolerated in 2011.
This is on Management and by extension the new pitching coach Curt Young.

This is the main point. What is apparently sorely missed by the 2011 Red Sox was Farrell's toughness as a pitching coach. It looks like Curt Young should be gone before they let any more coaches or players go.

And they need to hire an enforcer for a coach.

This team needs fixing fast, but do we really think that everything was hunky dory (is that how that's spelled?) until last September? All these players suddenly turned into bad apples? Lackey really had such an effect that he turned an entire clubhouse (or at least the pitching staff)? I have my doubts.

But what the team needs is a Dick Williams type of call (paraphrasing: You are expected on the field at 6am) in Spring Training. Also, is there any way to hold minicamps a la NFL in baseball? Somewhere along there these players need to go over certain fundamentals.

[JBill]

Oil Can Dan, on 12 October 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

So what this should be telling you is that if the Sox brass was interested in leaking this information at any point in time, then the best time for them to have done that was two weeks ago when everyone was throwing stones at them for 'running Francona out of town'. But that did not happen, and so then I question those who on this thread have been throwing stones at the Sox brass for leaking this information now.

Since we're speculating, it's possible that ownership thought, after rumors of clubhouse drama and a historic collapse, that fans would naturally turn on the manager and want a new one in the clubhouse. Maybe they never anticipated having to do this much spin, and didn't realize it until they got blasted in Tito's departure and his comment that he didn't have ownership support.

I also think that leaking stories of clubhouse craziness is more this group's style as a tactic in wanting to make Tito look bad, and spreading some ugly stuff about drug use would be really well beyond that, and I'm not sure I'm quite ready to believe they are this nasty and underhanded. I am trying to convince myself of this at least, I don't want to believe it of them.

[Yazdog8]

templeUsox, on 12 October 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

So should this article on Beckett by Bradford been more of a concern when it came out in late-August:
A look at the making of the new Josh Beckett

I don't have a problem with this statement. Family comes before job to a lot of people, even if you're making millions. What I have a problem with is Josh Beckett crapping all over clubhouse culture and forming his own frat house during games, and blowing off conditioning. That is unforgivable.

[snowmanny]

smastroyin, on 12 October 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

There is literally nothing that will surprise if an executive was willing to postulate that Tito's drug use was a problem.

The fact is that there are probably too many people who have a stake in this team so some guy who has a .1% share feels like he can say this bullshit to a reporter and call himself an executive but really he has as much insight as any of us.

This, to me, is the big problem that I worry about with Theo leaving. I appreciate the revenue streams that Henry et al have developed and obviously the past 9 years and the on-field success, but there is some sort of discipline missing in that organization. As others have pointed out, they really seem to cross the line with potentially career damaging information that gets "leaked" as people are leaving or about to leave (for example, I thought it was bush league to leak concerns about Bay's potential injuries while he was a free agent), and this Tito stuff is just ridiculous.

To me these constant leaks and mixed messages make it look as if Henry has no control over his people. He needs to identify the "team source" and send them packing.

[kieckeredinthehead]

trekfan55, on 12 October 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

This is the main point. What is apparently sorely missed by the 2011 Red Sox was Farrell's toughness as a pitching coach. It looks like Curt Young should be gone before they let any more coaches or players go. And they need to hire an enforcer for a coach.

Curt Schilling for pitching coach?

[trekfan55]

kieckeredinthehead, on 12 October 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Curt Schilling for pitching coach?

If needed yes. Big name or not, they need someone who will force these people to get their work in, and stay in shape, and not goof around. Farrell did that, Curt Young did not.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

snowmanny, on 12 October 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

To me these constant leaks and mixed messages make it look as if Henry has no control over his people. He needs to identify the "team source" and send them packing.

What if, just for the sake of argument, Henry or someone working on his orders is the "team source"? Not saying that's the case, nor do I want to believe that's the case, but I think it needs to be considered. What if this team's leaks are coming from a source that can't be sent packing?

[Carroll Hardy]

Where was such breathless, intrepid reporting back on 31 August, after Josh Beckett and the Red Sox had beaten the NYY 9-5 (for the 11th time in 14 outings) to be 83-52 and extend their lead in the AL East to 1½ games? Did they all start drinking in the clubhouse, eating fried chicken, and playing video games effective 1 Sept?

I must have missed the memo.

[JimD]

trekfan55, on 12 October 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

This is the main point. What is apparently sorely missed by the 2011 Red Sox was Farrell's toughness as a pitching coach.

What was also missing was leadership within the clubhouse. I can’t help but wonder if younger guys like Pedroia and new guys like Gonzalez and Crawford deferred too much to vets like Varitek and Wakefield who were unwilling or unable to be the leaders they once were.

[TheoShmeo]

snowmanny, on 12 October 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

To me these constant leaks and mixed messages make it look as if Henry has no control over his people. He needs to identify the "team source" and send them packing.

How? Is he supposed to bug their phones? Bug their offices? Follow them around? Make them take lie detector tests? Make them swear as a condition to employement that they will never talk to the press?

The latter is actually possible though equally as unlikely to succeed as the other options.

What we know for sure is that the Red Sox collapsed in spectacular fashion. There were clearly many disconcerting things going on with that team behind the scenes. I'm sorry but expecting some of the unpleasant facts not to get out or for John Henry to be able to prevent it strikes me as extreme pie in the sky.

For my part, as much as some of this is obviously disheartening, the collapse itself was much worse. Maybe, just maybe, the fact some of the factors that likely contributed to September are getting out will help the "cleansing" process. In short, reading this stuff might be bad medicine that helps cure the patient. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

[Lars The Wanderer]

kieckeredinthehead, on 12 October 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Curt Schilling for pitching coach?

Heh. Well, it isn't like he can make them stay in shape by example.