602 replies to this topic

[mikeford]

What an absolutely disheartening mess.

Pedroia for player-manager.

[ItOnceWasMyLife]

really feels like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

"28 days of rain
Flash floods in February September
Back in our boats again
Bath water and the baby
What am I gonna do?
There's been a lot of drinking
Looking at ghosts of you
While all the world is sinking"

[LesterFan]

I'm disappointed to find out that Lester is part of the problem. He struck me as a hard-working guy who cared deeply about winning. What REALLY has me annoyed is how close Lackey apparently is with the rest of the staff despite being an atrocious pitcher. And Ellsbury, who put up an MVP caliber season, is not nearly as popular in the clubhouse because of what happened last year.

[SMU_Sox]

E5, it would have to be the Good Will Hunting of clubhouse attendants to know that Theo pushed for Crawford while some higher-ups were against it.

Perhaps there were multiple sources. That little tid-bit was from a source in baseball ops or management. The juicy little tid-bit about fried chicken and how the trainer was ineffective came from another source.
It is unfathomable to me how bad things have apparently gotten since 2007. I wonder how many of these guys are going to be traded in the off season. Although how do you trade guys you just branded as clubhouse cancers? Why would LL or anyone else want to do that if they were planning on getting rid of these guys in the coming months?

Edit: the strength and condition coach was ineffective only because players ignored him, not because he was not good at his job.

Edited by johnlimberakis, 12 October 2011 - 05:41 AM.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Josh Beckett is a waste Hall of Fame talent.

[TheoShmeo]

The "smear campaign" response is too easy. And it's very predictable.

Is it really in the Red Sox organization's best interests to have this sort of stuff leak out? The only conclusion is that that this was an orchestrated leak by the FO?

Pinning this on Henry, LL and Werner ignores that it's their team, they're likely very sensitive to such awful press and it reflects poorly on everyone, including them.

Isn't it possible that what we're seeing here is just plain old investigative reporting?

PS: I don't live in New England but there were a few items in that story I had heard about from a friend not connected with the organization months ago. My point is that stuff about some of the Sox personnel was out there and was probably known by a lot of people in the Boston area. If an outsider like me knows manages to find out some of these things, how can it be a surprise when someone like Hohler is able to pull a story together?

Edited by TheoShmeo, 12 October 2011 - 06:09 AM.

[dcmissle]

The "smear campaign" response is too easy. And it's very predictable.

Is it really in the Red Sox organization's best interests to have this sort of stuff leak out? The only conclusion is that that this was an orchestrated leak by the FO?

Pinning this on Henry, LL and Werner ignores that it's their team, they're likely very sensitive to such awful press and it reflects poorly on everyone, including them.

Isn't it possible that what we're seeing here is just plain old investigative reporting?

PS: I don't live in New England but there were a few items in that story I had heard about from a friend not connected with the organization months ago. My point is that stuff about some of the Sox personnel was out there and was probably known by a lot of people in the Boston area. If an outsider like me knows manages to find out some of these things, how can it be a surprise when someone like Hohler is able to pull a story together?

I doubt it. I mean seriously, just take a look at the playoff odds game thread; loyalists were looking for Beckett/Lester to rescue the team down the stretch.

No, the power of this, its shock value, is not the dysfunction, which we've seen many times before with this franchise, but the widespread, deep seated unprofessionalism of the roster. I've never seen anything approaching in 4+ decades of being a fan of this team. It took something of that magnitude to piss away a 9-game WC edge at the beginning of Sept.

Nobody would have sat on this. By point of comparison, every time Manny hiccupped it made the papers more or less in real time. Investigative journalism there was, but also systemic leaking, probably by people with multiple agendas.

Edited by dcmissle, 12 October 2011 - 06:20 AM.

[RedOctober3829]

D&C source says that Beckett announced to the team that "he didn't give a damn anymore" after he fell out of the Cy Young race.

[Savin Hillbilly]

If this article is accurate, our starters had plenty of time to play video games, eat fried chicken and chug down beers, but had no time to stay in shape. Youk's tantrums have gotten worse and our best player this year has 1 person he likes on this team.

Of course, if the article is accurate, this just shows that he has some standards.

I agree that the decision to include the stuff about Tito's personal life was a poor one, and it's especially puzzling in light of the way Lackey's marital woes were passed over. I suspect that it was included because without it, there's not a whole lot new here, other than a bit more detail about the transgressions of the Three Fatties. (I think next year, in honor of the "Hell Yeah,...." video, each of the three should be greeted when he takes the mound with chants of "Hell No").

Still, it's interesting as a summary and confirmation of the narrative that emerged from the news conferences.

I love the fact that the only person who spoke for attribution, besides Francona, was Pedroia. A standup guy like that must feel so out of his element in that clubhouse.

[TheoShmeo]

I doubt it. I mean seriously, just take a look at the playoff odds game thread; loyalists were looking for Beckett/Lester to rescue the team down the stretch.

No, the power of this, its shock value, is not the dysfunction, which we've seen many times before with this franchise, but the widespread, deep seated unprofessionalism of the roster. I've never seen anything approaching in 4+ decades of being a fan of this team. It took something of that magnitude to piss away a 9-game WC edge at the beginning of Sept.

Nobody would have sat on this. By point of comparison, every time Manny hiccupped it made the papers more or less in real time. Investigative journalism there was, but also systemic leaking, probably by people with multiple agendas.

You doubt what? That an reporter could unearth sources to tell him what he learned without resorting to team owners with an agenda?

I think it's a huge reach that the Trio would want to inflict this kind of shitstain on the Red Sox brand. If they could pin the blame on one convenient scape goat, maybe they would. But the take away from that story is that it was extremely widespread and pervasive. Ownership can't lop all of their heads off. This isn't as easy as leaking bad stuff about Nomar or Manny as they left town.

[Jinhocho]

So Tito gets completely trashed. Nothing can ever end well in Boston.

Looks like they paged the dentist. This thing wreaks of upper level management spin.

[Jinhocho]

I am not sure what that says about LL, if anything specific at all.

It suggests that Theo was the one who wanted Crawford but some or all of the owners had doubts. Of course, it could also be spin.

Frankly, the entire management team should all be held accountable for big contracts like that, regardless of the outcome. Common sense suggests that almost no professional sports GMs have the ability to encumber their organizations to the tune of $140MM without some form of consensus building within the organization.

Also missed is Crawford's signing came about to a good degree from the questions surrounding JAcoby from last year.

[Dick Pole Upside]

I wonder how much of this stuff happens in other clubhouses? Our team aint the only club with good ol' fatboys.

There's the infamous quote from John Kruk, when he and a bunch of Phillies smoking and drinking beer in the clubhouse after a game were chastised by a female reporter, "I ain't an athlete, lady, I'm a baseball player."

Honestly, I'd get rid of at least 2 of the three Kentucky Fried Pitchers recognizing that we'd receive pennies on the dollar for Lester or Beckett. Lackey MUST go. Lester turned into a bloated prick by year's end. Disgusting to see him panting, sweating and laboring in the third inning during that last start against Baltimore. Beckett is a world-class douchebag.

The best thing that Cherington could do is to purge the team of these jerks. Youks, Wake, Tek don't let the door hit you in the ass.

God plays second base for the Sox. I hope Adrian listens to Him.

The only thing that sucks is that in order to keep Dreamboat happy we'll probably have to bring back Lowrie. Blech.

[BosRedSox5]

I think it's important to remember the climate in which this article is written as well as remembering that it's just a newspaper article. The article is inflammatory and filled with incendiary accusations, the only quotes they have are either elusive or angrily denying the article's claims. We're 4 years from our last World Series, an extremely popular manager was just dismissed and our local, boy genius General Manager is on the cusp of jumping ship and joining the Cubs. People are freaking out, and the Globe is trying to sell papers, because they know half of New England will want to grab a copy of this today. They know people are panicked about all the change, they'll buy the paper to try and read what's going on and they'll get so mad and worked up about this article they'll tell all their friends "Did you see this article in the Globe?! Those guys are loosahs!"

The Globe is even running a feature online called "Did the Red Sox pack on the pounds?" They have official yearbook pictures of the team during spring training contrasted with the most opportunistic shots of guys with their eyes half open and cheeks puffed out from breathing. It's absurd.

Fact is, if the Red Sox went to the playoffs this season we're not even talking about any of this, now that they collapsed, Rome is burning.

How are Lester and Beckett getting all the blame? Sure they threw a couple stinkers down the stretch, but that can happen to anyone. The guys are still 1-2 in both IP and ERA among the starting staff. Josh Beckett just had the best season of his career and Lester has been the same, steady, top of the rotation presence he's been for 4 years.

Still, maybe this article will help. Sure, 90% of everything in a newspaper is bullshit, but maybe it will fire the Sox up rather than do the damage it was intended to.

[rundugrun]

So Tito gets completely trashed. Nothing can ever end well in Boston.

meh. I thought the article was more critical of the players than Tito. Sure, it mentioned his inability to motivate and put in print his marriage issues, but I don't think it was a hatchet job. The big 3 starters are the ones trashed (rightly so). The fact that ownership felt the need to hold a party on Henry's yacht just shows what a bunch of prima donnas these guys are. For the players to be angry that ownership wanted to play a doubleheader because of a HURRICANE, is just mind-boggling. What a buch of a$$hats...

[Trautwein's Degree]

This isn't a hatchet job by management. It is fact. The truth hurts. Josh Beckett and Jon Lester care about this team less than your average SoSHer. And if Tito, for whatever reason couldn't connect with them, his departure was necessary.

[Savin Hillbilly]

For the players to be angry that ownership wanted to play a doubleheader because of a HURRICANE, is just mind-boggling. What a buch of a$hats...

I'm thinking we might have the proximate cause of Tito's "entitlement" quote right there, though I'm sure it wasn't the only instance.

[Average Reds]

There's the infamous quote from John Kruk, when he and a bunch of Phillies smoking and drinking beer in the clubhouse after a game were chastised by a female reporter, "I ain't an athlete, lady, I'm a baseball player."

Honestly, I'd get rid of at least 2 of the three Kentucky Fried Pitchers recognizing that we'd receive pennies on the dollar for Lester or Beckett. Lackey MUST go. Lester turned into a bloated prick by year's end. Disgusting to see him panting, sweating and laboring in the third inning during that last start against Baltimore. Beckett is a world-class douchebag.

The best thing that Cherington could do is to purge the team of these jerks. Youks, Wake, Tek don't let the door hit you in the ass.

God plays second base for the Sox. I hope Adrian listens to Him.

The only thing that sucks is that in order to keep Dreamboat happy we'll probably have to bring back Lowrie. Blech.

My advice: Take a deep breath, have some coffee, then take a long look at what you've written here.

It's not news that professional athletes are self-involved jerks with the emotional maturity of 12 year olds. It's not news that there's s fine line between a clubhouse filled with "characters" and a clubhouse of malcontents. And there's nothing that says teams have to get along to win - hell, the Athletics and Yankees in the 70s make these Red Sox look like a bunch of second graders in that department, and all those teams did was win.

This is a good team that performed poorly down the stretch. If you want to burn it down because you don't like them, then quite honestly you're less interested in watching good baseball than you are in creating a fantasy world filled with ballplayers from an era that, quite frankly, never really existed. Because MLB players have been selfish, entitled assholes for as long as there's been baseball, and that's not going to change even if you turn over most of the roster here.

What happened to the Sox on the field was somewhat unique. What happened to the Sox in the clubhouse was not at all unique. Let's make sure we fix the actual problem and not attack the symptoms that the Globe is trotting out for our consumption.

[Dick Pole Upside]

AR:

I get the tit for tat on drama, and am not deluded by the sensationalism of the approach by the Globe.

I think moving one or more of these pitchers isn't "burn it down"... but to just let it go would continue to degrade the team moving forward. Tek and Wake are marginal. Youks is a valuable RH hitter, but his value is on the wane with injuries.

I don't think status quo and a stern talking-to with the starters is supportable.

[Clears Cleaver]

It's newspaper journalism. With an agenda. Francona's part was at the top because it was new information and had real quotes. The rumors of Tito's infidelity went back years and years to hazel mae. It sucks for him and maybe this impacts his ability to get a manager job this year.

At least they waited until Tito's gig on Fox was done so he wouldn't have to address it on the air. Actually, I would love to see him continue on as a broadcaster and call lackey, Lester and Beckett starts. Lol.

This is by no means a catastrophe as some are saying. It's sensationalistic but still fixable. Lackey is gone. Wake and Tek are gone. If Beckett and Lester aren't embarrassed into taking their profession more seriously, then they will be jettisoned as well, eventually.

Youks and Ellsbury are the only position players that matter in the context of this story. They cant afford to lose Ellsbury and have to commit to him. Youks? He has always been the least likable good player the sox have had and his physical evolution has warranted cynicism. Now he is breaking down, so you're left with a marginalized player with a tough personality. Difficult decision for the front office how to massage that player out of his role. Maybe they won't have to.

[CJChap]

This isn't a hatchet job by management. It is fact. The truth hurts. Josh Beckett and Jon Lester care about this team less than your average SoSHer. And if Tito, for whatever reason couldn't connect with them, his departure was necessary.

Agreed. People around here need to stop bitching about "hatchet jobs" and reading into who is leaking the story. This Francona angle isn't new- I've been hearing it around for the last few days and I think it could have been worse.

Every single one of those players talks to the media on a daily basis. Reporters are around the clubhouse every single day during the season and building relationships not only with players, coaches, and upper management, but everyday people that work at Fenway Park and see things that the outside doesn't.

Why is it in the best interest for the Red Sox front office to feed a story to the Boston Globe about some of its best players and their manager?

[bosockboy]

Somewhere in the last three weeks there was a random rumor posted that Francona might have been banging Heidi....makes me wonder now.

Make no mistake....this is the end of Camelot.

[Rough Carrigan]

Looks like they paged the dentist. This thing wreaks of upper level management spin.

Who else has an interest in trashing Tito? He's always had the players' backs. He never put any of their troubles in the public eye. Edward Bennett Williams would be proud of this piece.

[Buck Showalter]

This isn't a hatchet job by management. It is fact. The truth hurts. Josh Beckett and Jon Lester care about this team less than your average SoSHer. And if Tito, for whatever reason couldn't connect with them, his departure was necessary.

This is fair.

And as an aside - in a perverse way - I'm a little disappointed that this board didn't have "any" of this inside stuff long before Bob arse-Hohler.

[Redkluzu]

Isn't it possible that what we're seeing here is just plain old investigative reporting?

PS: I don't live in New England but there were a few items in that story I had heard about from a friend not connected with the organization months ago. My point is that stuff about some of the Sox personnel was out there and was probably known by a lot of people in the Boston area. If an outsider like me knows manages to find out some of these things, how can it be a surprise when someone like Hohler is able to pull a story together?

My answer is yes, this article is investigative reporting but let's be real. There's always an angle. The angle here aims to show how we collapsed and it aims to sell newspapers. The Globe (as most news venues today) loves the juicy story and sometimes over-emphasizes the details or misinterprets them to sell the story. In this case,the article leads us to believe that Tito's painkillers and marriage problems may have affected his mental state. And ergo his control of the clubhouse. Not a conclusion I'd make so easily.

The decline is what was saddest of all and reading about the players' negativity hit me hardest. I would have liked to hear who tried to combat that negativity and how. I would have liked to hear a lot of things that weren't in that article. But it will undoubtedly continue to spark more stories -- all with alleged "new" angles.

[mabrowndog]

I always remembered the Ortiz outburst in the middle of Tito's press conference and think "Damn, Tito hates anyone interrupting his press conferences." Pretty much summed up how little respect anyone had for the man.

Yup. The whole Papi incident was dismissed and laughed off when we learned in the aftermath that Pedroia had set it up. But joke or not, Ortiz still felt that interrupting the manager's press conference was an appropriate response. It was a horseshit move.

There really isn't anything "new" in that article. I learned was that in addition to guzzling brews during games, Lester, Lackey & Beckett also ate fried chicken and played video games. The flak about the Hurricane make-up date, and JWH's ridiculous attempt to buy back the adoration of his petulant brooding teenagers, was another revelation.

Everything else was either a re-hash of previously reported items, an echoing of uncorroborated-but-believable rumors (Tito's marriage issues; Ellsbury only talked to Lowrie), or attempts to create news out of irrelevant tripe (Tito's pain meds).

[loshjott]

Articles like this must be a big part of why Theo Epstein is sick of working for the Red Sox.

Chicago won't be much better. (see Bartman thread about the current state of Cub fandom). It's not like he's going back to San Diego where nobody cares.

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

Could Lackey have been less than what he was?

Terrible teammate? Check.

Even worse ballplayer? Check.

Packaged together at $16 million? Check.

What an asshole. At least with some of the entitled players, I could see why they might become entitled (Make no mistake, they're assholes too. But I could envision some form of "justification" they might have for becoming arrogant, listless pricks). Lackey has as much a right to be entitled as I have to bang Kate Upton. What a disgraceful player. One of the most unlikable guys to wear a Sox uniform.

Edited by greek_gawd_of_walks, 12 October 2011 - 07:45 AM.

[czar]

The player stuff bothers me, partly because they're lazy and uncaring and I fear this problem is so deep-seeded it will propagate years into the future, but mostly because the more that leaks out, the less we can get in on the market for our overweight Mean Girls threesome.

HOWEVER, the Tito stuff seems really gray. Tabloid journalism at it's finest.

It might be true (and there almost certainly are elements that are), but you better be damn sure you are right about things when you bring someone's marriage and kids up or insinuate pill popping as a "blockbuster" article. I understand that sources need to remain anonymous so they don't get cleaned out (well, because of this article at least-- the KFC procurer needs to go!!!11) but, damn, being 95% sure of this stuff is a good way to ruin 5% of guys' lives.

That's probably being a bit overreactive since guys like Ron Washington and Michael Vick still have cushy jobs in today's sports culture, but for a vast majority of the population that has the potential to be some rather crippling slander.

Edited by czar, 12 October 2011 - 07:45 AM.

[Pumpsie]

This isn't a hatchet job by management. It is fact. The truth hurts. Josh Beckett and Jon Lester care about this team less than your average SoSHer. And if Tito, for whatever reason couldn't connect with them, his departure was necessary.

And if this mess was happening right under Theo's nose as well, then it's just as well that he goes and someone new takes over. Actually, I wouldn't mind it if they traded a lot of these guys over the offseason, or, at least, enough to send a clear message that a new era has begun. This is just unacceptable behavior, any way you want to look at it. The Red Sox need an entirely new culture in the clubhouse and they may well need a lot of entirely new ballplayers to get it. I don't envy the Sox GM in 2012, whether it's Theo or someone else. 2012 can't be anything like business as usual and I applaud Tito for seeing that he can't be the guy to turn this around. You keep Ellsbury, Aceves, Pedroia, Scutaro, Papelbon, and a few other of the savable guys (like AGone, for example.). The rest could be made available in the right deal. And this housecleaning could well include letting Ortiz walk and trading Youks as well as breaking up the toxic trio of Beckett, Lester and Lackey. Some very tough decisions will have to be made and you have to trade the right guys or you'll mess this up even more.

BTW, the John Kruk quote wasn't tied to drinking beer in the clubhouse. Kruk was noticed by a woman at an airport. She came up to him and inquired if he was an athlete and he replied "No, m'am, I'm a baseball player."

[mpjc]

HOWEVER, the Tito stuff seems really gray. Tabloid journalism at its finest.

Agreed. And of course that's the bit that ESPN is headlining. Doesn't seem fair.

Edited by mpjc, 12 October 2011 - 07:51 AM.

[dcmissle]

You doubt what? That an reporter could unearth sources to tell him what he learned without resorting to team owners with an agenda?

I think it's a huge reach that the Trio would want to inflict this kind of shitstain on the Red Sox brand. If they could pin the blame on one convenient scape goat, maybe they would. But the take away from that story is that it was extremely widespread and pervasive. Ownership can't lop all of their heads off. This isn't as easy as leaking bad stuff about Nomar or Manny as they left town.

I received your PC and doubt nothing in it. Thank you.

What I am deeply suspicious about is the timing. We learned about the Kerrigan follies and Duquette's ham handedness in real time. The same with Nomar and Manny, as you note. And we learned about these things during crucial periods down the stretch. The media is incapable of sitting on them and unwilling to sit on them, and I not suggesting that they should.

So why is it that all of this stuff only started to dribble out after the Tito-Theo press conference last week? In an era in which traditional media are on the ropes, there are powerful incentives to investigate them and print them.

I've lived long enough not to be paranoid but too long to believe in coincidences. I think people from several quarters are out for themselves and leaking like sieves.

As you note, this is a game changer and puts the organization under immense pressure with great potential for making big mistakes. Do I that believe people are foolish enough to think they can spin their way out of it -- or craven enough to be looking out for their own individual interests, the greater good be damned? Unfortunately, yes.

[smastroyin]

I think it is all on us. Seriously. I want to blame the FO, I want to blame opportunistic and overzealous press, but it's on us.

The fact that people are so interested in salacious rumor-mongering and the goings on of players and managers personal lives is why we end up with stories like this.

[NomarRS05]

Sadly, I tend to believe that most of the stories and accusations are true because this team has lost any benefit of the doubt.

I'm most disappointed in Beckett. It wasn't long ago that he lectured Buchholz about the importance of fitness. And now this? Are you kidding me? Lester is at least young enough that, with the right voices around him, he can still change his bad habits.

As far as I'm concerned, Lackey is the worst thing to happen to this franchise in the last 20 years. He's done the maximum amount of damage possible in his short time here, and it's unfathomable to imagine him in a Sox uniform ever again.

[JimD]

Some of this may indeed be spin but I wouldn't necessarily pin it on ownership. Until recently, everything good that has happened to the Boston Red Sox since 2002 has been generally attributed in the media to Theo and Tito. There may be a few people in the organization who feel they didn’t get enough credit and/or are just plain jealous who are leaking the nasty stuff to discredit them and their work. I find it hard to believe that an organization as PR savvy as this one would be so ham-handed with what looks like such as obvious smear campaign like this.

[behindthepen]

So why is it that all of this stuff only started to dribble out after the Tito-Theo press conference last week? In an era in which traditional media are on the ropes, there are powerful incentives to investigate them and print them.

maybe because Sox fan message boards have really long threads about "who is to blame???". Is there any other story, besides Theo, that matters right now to the fan base?

Yeah, it sucks for Tito to have this stuff aired. But if one of our players had all of the same personal issues he is allegedly having, would that be news? The guy was the captain of a sinking ship, so I think there's a pretty strong argument that's it's relevant.

One thing I know, the next time Tito comes to Fenway, he will get a great, great reception. I am pretty sure you can't say the same for any of the starting pitchers.

[Razor Shines]

It's insane that Gonzalez and Ellsbury were even mentioned in the blame discussion.

The Gonzalez thing especially underscores why players tend to hate reporters. Just that one little comment about the schedule during a 7 WAR season, and now he's not a "true leader" or whatever. This is the type of thing we ridicule when it comes out of the NY Post, hopefully it's treated as the same sort of bullshit here.

[BroodsSexton]

Fact is, if the Red Sox went to the playoffs this season we're not even talking about any of this, now that they collapsed, Rome is burning.

This is a good team that performed poorly down the stretch. If you want to burn it down because you don't like them, then quite honestly you're less interested in watching good baseball than you are in creating a fantasy world filled with ballplayers from an era that, quite frankly, never really existed.

I'm not sure how far these lines of thinking go, though. The thought has occurred to me that the collapse was not entirely unintentional, or at least the result of gross negligence by certain players, and if so, then the story cannot just be written off as incidental to the performance, or as aberrant to a "good team."

That's a tough accusation to make, but there were no shortage of people claiming such a collapse -- based upon the established odds -- to be virtually impossible. Of course, it's possible that this was a 100-win-capable team up through August that just simply shat the bed in September. But given what we now know, we also have to account for the possibility that there were guys (perhaps entitled guys who have been there, won it before, and already make enough coin) who just didn't really care to prolong the misery of the baseball season. They had kids to get home to. Or xBox to play. Or a cancer-ridden wife to divorce...

[luckysox]

Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of all the business about who is to blame. I get that it matters to many people, but it's time to get going on fixing it. Tito is gone, Theo is gone, the 105 win WS season is gone. Things need to change, and boy are they going to...when you bring in a new GM and a new manager, things will change, no matter the timing or reasoning. I'm as pissed as the rest of you, but I also know that most of this team is staying put. Maybe Lackey goes, along with the older vet trio...but honestly, those who are charged with fixing it better hope they don't piss Beckett, Lester and Buch off too much because like it or not, if this team is going to compete those guys need to produce.

This off season is going to be very interesting and I hope I can take off my crap colored glasses soon enough to really appreciate how it all goes down. Let's see what we end up with. Maybe it will all end up for the best and this team will be the 100+ win monster in 2012 everyone thought it would be in '11. Or maybe it will get even worse and we see a major sell off at the deadline, signifying a few years of "rebuild" mode. Either way, I won't be able to look away.

[Kremlin Watcher]

Hatchet job or not, the article is very clear about two things: i) management (all of them) did not do its job this year; and ii) the players gave up, stopped caring about the team as a team.

On i), well, sometimes that happens. Executives get busy and lose track, line managers get stale and stuck in routines. I thought it was interesting that Tito said he spent more time at the park than ever this year, whichnis often typical of managerial failure - the belief that working harder is an adequate substitute for being effective. As much as I love Tito the manager, when this happens it is time to make a change. This management team failed pretty hard this year, and when this happens it is difficult to impossible to turn the clock back to the good old days.

On ii), the real problem seems to me to be that wealthy, coddled, successful players just stopped caring. You can fix i) by replacing some key managers (Tito and Theo) and forcing upper management (LL) to rededicate themselves to the team. But is it realistic to think that truly wholesale changes can be made to the the roster in one offseason? Replace three starters? With what? Trade Lackey for whom? I get that the team needs to do something bordering on drastic to effect positive changes in the clubhouse for next year; what worries me is the ability of any team to remake itself and remain competitive. Blowing it up seems like a non-starter to me. I would have thought the best approach would be to hire a GM and a manager who just won't take that shit from the players and are able both to inspire confidence and loyalty as well as kick ass and demand accountability.

[Oil Can Dan]

Seems to me that if Sox management intended to leak that Francona's impending divorce was a factor in him not returning as manager next season, that they'd have had that leaked at the time he was let go. And they did not. That should tell you something...

[dcmissle]

Two other things tell me something.

This --

This article is based on a series of interviews the Globe conducted with individuals familiar with the Sox operation at all levels. Most requested anonymity out of concern for their jobs or potential damage to their relationships in the organization. Others refused to comment or did not respond to interview requests.

(emphasis added)

and this:

While Epstein has accepted blame for signing subpar performers such as Lackey and Jenks, the owners share the responsibility of unanimously approving their signings. But Carl Crawford was a different story.

Ownership was divided over Epstein’s push to acquire Crawford as a free agent, sources said. At least one top executive believed Crawford’s skills as a speedy lefthanded-hitting outfielder seemed to duplicate Ellsbury’s. But the owners ultimately agreed to gamble $142 million over seven years on Crawford - a lost wager to date.

(emphasis added)

Now remember the backdrop here. Theo said last Thursday that we own this failure collectively. And yet somebody obviously felt compelled to throw Theo under the bus on Crawford.

If I'm Theo, this is all I need to overcome internal misgivings and buy a one-way ticket to Chicago.

[smastroyin]

The funniest thing about that, though, is that if Crawford had been a clone of Ellsbury then this team would have scored a billion runs.

So at the same time, that "top executive" really sucks, because they imply that Ellsbury wasn't going to amount to much.

[JimD]

If I'm Theo, this is all I need to overcome internal misgivings and buy a one-way ticket to Chicago.

It was reported some time ago that Theo had to do a selling job to get ownership to agree to the Crawford contract.

Edited by JimD, 12 October 2011 - 08:56 AM.

[bosockboy]

I think the sacrificial lamb here will be Beckett....I think they move on while he has strong trade value. They dump Lackey and eat his deal; and invest the Beckett money into Yu Darvish, and possibly sign Buehrle.

Beckett has the appearance of the ring leader here.

[dcmissle]

It was reported some time ago that Theo had to do a selling job to get ownership to agree to the Crawford contract.

When and in what context? That matters tremendously because it gets to the issue of trust.

Theo issued a call to circle the wagons. Reasonable if you assume a good faith effort on everyone's part to fix things, and because nobody wins from these pissing contests, ever.

And yet sources -- plural -- pin Crawford on him when they know Hohler is writing an article chronicling, very specifically, why things fell apart.

Christ, this is the very issue Theo wanted addressed before he returned. And make no mistake about it -- it's gratuitous bullshit productive of nothing and was undeserved because Theo threw nobody under the bus. Some people, quite sensibly, declined to talk to Hohler

Edited by dcmissle, 12 October 2011 - 09:05 AM.

[brs3]

The only disappointing aspect of the Red Sox ownership is their continued use of the media to protect their product when a member of the organization departs. Rarely(ever?) does someone leave in a positive light.

I fully expect details to come out that paint Theo in a even slightly less than positive light, but it'll conveniently come out after the Red Sox have secured their compensation for Theo going to the Cubs.

I'm sure other people have chimed in, but I don't want to sort through a myriad of pages of the thread. The ownership knows the fan base eats this up, regardless of truth or history of the person, or what they meant to the organization.

I'm grateful for the championships, and the general quality of the team in this ownership era. However, 'Inside The Collapse' is another example of needing to take everything with a grain of salt when comments are tossed in by unnamed organization members.

[Savin Hillbilly]

Beckett has the appearance of the ring leader here.

I kind of doubt that. I mean, Beckett was here for years, and so was Lester, and while there occasional grumblings about Beckett's conditioning and general seriousness, there never seemed to be major issues with either of them. Lackey comes in last year, and eighteen months later they're the Three Brewsketeers and the key suspects in a clubhouse train wreck. I know correlation /= causation, but the correlation here is mighty strong.

What has happened to this team since Lackey's arrival reminds me a little of Bill James' essay in one of his Historical Abstracts about the detrimental effect of Hal Chase on the morale and unity of the teams he played for back in the dead-ball era. Of course we're not talking about corruption here--at least not that kind--but it just seems like we're seeing the same kind of story.

In short, I think Lackey's the ringleader. Not that that lets Beckett and Lester off the hook or anything.

[Mugsys Jock]

The guy I'm not hearing much about that I'm most concerned about is Ellsbury. To me, he's the bright young star who could be the leader of the next generation of Red Sox success... but all this shit has to leave him wondering why he'd want to stick around Boston. There should be some serious sucking up in his direction, fast.

Pedroia, of course, will also have a major role in getting the train back on the tracks. I hate the idea of baseball teams having captains (and for God's sake no 'C' on the jersey)... but this might be one case where the kind of leadership he can bring needs to be called out and made official.

[smastroyin]

There is literally nothing that will surprise if an executive was willing to postulate that Tito's drug use was a problem.

The fact is that there are probably too many people who have a stake in this team so some guy who has a .1% share feels like he can say this bullshit to a reporter and call himself an executive but really he has as much insight as any of us.