1440 replies to this topic

[OttoC]

Stop being a Douche, everyone on these boards refers to the RED SOX as "we" so drop the sanctimonious bullshit.
...

Can't stand the competition? Only one douche allowed?

I root for the team but they are not my team; I don't work or play for them and I don't refer to them as "we."

[Drek717]

What about a guy like Nava? He's old(er), behind several AAAA types, was a Theo lottery ticket to begin with, and has receded into the organizational background. I think he'd fit the profile of a low-value return PTBNL.

Same guy I was thinking of in this PTBNL deal. He's got no place on the Sox roster at this point but could actually play some real time for the Cubs. Sox give up a meaningless piece, Cubs get a 4th/5th OF type who could help them in 2012. Nava gets a better shot at the bigs. Works all the way around.

[ookami7m]

Same guy I was thinking of in this PTBNL deal. He's got no place on the Sox roster at this point but could actually play some real time for the Cubs. Sox give up a meaningless piece, Cubs get a 4th/5th OF type who could help them in 2012. Nava gets a better shot at the bigs. Works all the way around.

But why wouldn't the Sox trade Nava for something of value somewhere else, and not give more value than necessary to the Cubs?

[Rasputin]

But why wouldn't the Sox trade Nava for something of value somewhere else, and not give more value than necessary to the Cubs?

Because Nava doesn't really have any value.

[EvilEmpire]

But why wouldn't the Sox trade Nava for something of value somewhere else, and not give more value than necessary to the Cubs?

Because the Cubs probably agreed on a list of marginal prospects at around the same value. Value that Epstein is very familiar with.

[ookami7m]

Because Nava doesn't really have any value.

Because the Cubs probably agreed on a list of marginal prospects at around the same value. Value that Epstein is very familiar with.

No that's my point. Nava has value. He's a passable 4th/5th OF for nearly any ML team, including the Cubs. Theo knows this, we know this, Ben knows this. Nava isn't the type of PTBNL that would go in this deal - it'll be a marginal prospect that has no designs on a 25man or 40 man spot for either team this year.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Nava has no value, he's an old corner outfielder with zero power or speed. He's cleared waivers in the past, which is a pretty good indication of how teams assess him. Frankly, I think the Cubs would take nothing over Nava.

[EvilEmpire]

No that's my point. Nava has value. He's a passable 4th/5th OF for nearly any ML team, including the Cubs. Theo knows this, we know this, Ben knows this. Nava isn't the type of PTBNL that would go in this deal - it'll be a marginal prospect that has no designs on a 25man or 40 man spot for either team this year.

Maybe, sure. We don't know kind of value they agreed on to change hands. We can guess a little because the Sox got Kurcz and Cherington said the Sox would get the better part of the deal. The question is how much better. I doubt it is much better because Epstein probably doesn't need filler and he didn't need to take back a PTBNL in the deal. They could have just agreed on Carpenter and a PTBNL as the price to pay for him moving on and be done with it. But they didn't, and he is getting something back. While it is possible that he gets a guy like Kurcz who has some upside back, I think the value he gets is more likely to be a bit-player who can contribute in some small way to the Cubs this year, who clearly isn't going to be a regular at the ML level, and is someone the Sox don't value much. A player like Nava sounds like a fit, but who knows. I think it will be a player roughly close to the same value, but with no prospect upside at all. Different kind of value. Like Rudy says, someone old.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Per MLB.com, Derrik Gibson added to the MLB 40-man roster.

Probably just a mistake, but damn that would be funny if Ben started his options clock before trading him as the PTBNL.

Edited by Buzzkill Pauley, 17 March 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[Joe Sixpack]

Maybe, sure. We don't know kind of value they agreed on to change hands. We can guess a little because the Sox got Kurcz and Cherington said the Sox would get the better part of the deal. The question is how much better. I doubt it is much better because Epstein probably doesn't need filler and he didn't need to take back a PTBNL in the deal. They could have just agreed on Carpenter and a PTBNL as the price to pay for him moving on and be done with it.

They did need to take back a PTBNL in the deal, because a team can't just send players to another team without getting at least one player in return. That's why it will likely be a minor league nobody/filler and not anybody of value.

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

They did need to take back a PTBNL in the deal, because a team can't just send players to another team without getting at least one player in return. That's why it will likely be a minor league nobody/filler and not anybody of value.

Can't they send "cash" instead of a PTBNL? I've often seen deals where the parameters were Player X traded to a team for a "PTBNL or cash."

[JakeRae]

Can't they send "cash" instead of a PTBNL? I've often seen deals where the parameters were Player X traded to a team for a "PTBNL or cash."

They probably could've. However, it sounds like they agreed to a PTBNL. My guess would be that they have provided a list of organizational filler to the Cubs to select from and the Cubs will be choosing based on what position/level they most need organizational filler at by the end of Spring Training.

To the names mentioned in this thread, guys like Nava have a chance of being on that list. Bowden has virtually no chance. Lars has absolutely no chance. Bowden is likely to break camp with the team and Lars is 2nd on the 1B depth chart right now and has options. Lars has gone from wildly overrated as a prospect (I'll admit guilt on that front) to being seriously underrated by many here. While he's plateaued in the high minors, he is still getting on base at a very good clip and is still young for his level. I commented earlier that Bowden for Carpenter and Kurcz would be a pretty fair trade by itself. Lars for those two would be a losing trade for the Sox. Nava, as much as I loved his story, has absolutely no real organizational value.

[terrisus]

And it looks like he won't even be starting the year with us, as Chris Carpenter is having surgery, performed by Dr. Andrews, to remove a bone spur in his elbow. No mention of planned recovery time.

[941827]

Jair Bogaerts is the PTBNL to Cubs.

https://twitter.com/...413565459607553

Edited by 941827, 29 March 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

So we gave up a guy who was the brother of a baseball player.... Seems like the Cubs got less than nothing, as many of us predicted

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Great -- No Not That Chris Carpenter The Other One in exchange for No Not That Bogaerts The Other One.

Hope there's no let-down from Xander with his brother a casualty of this whole ridiculous affair.

[OttoC]

I see that I'm not the only one to wonder if Xander Bogaerts will be affected by this move.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Shouldn't be that big a deal; chances are they'd never play together anyway with Xander already several levels ahead of Jair.

[SoxScout]

FORT MYERS –About those Theo Epstein compensation talks being over: Not so fast.
Puzzled by the timing of the injury and subsequent surgery today on the right elbow of reliever Chris Carpenter, the main chip the Red Sox received in the three-player, one-executive trade with the Cubs, the Red Sox do not consider the talks to be officially over, said a Red Sox source this afternoon.
The club is weighing its options about what to do next, said the source. This raises the specter that the Red Sox believe the possibility exists that Carpenter was injured when he was traded to them on Feb. 21. A baseball source indicated that the teams agree that that there was no intent or prior knowledge by the Cubs that misled the Red Sox about Carpenter’s condition.

http://www.bostonher...ighing-options/

[soxfan121]

OK, now we are approaching Cabin Mirror status.

[Green Monster]

But wasn't he examined by the Red Sox medical sta..................never mind

[Infield Infidel]

Seems more like that Freddy Sanchez-Brandon Lyon trade.

During the 2003 season, Sauerbeck and pitcher Mike González were traded to the Boston Red Sox for Brandon Lyon and Anastacio Martinez, but the Pirates backed out of the deal after discovering an injury to Lyon. However, the Pirates and Red Sox worked out another trade that sent Sauerbeck and Jeff Suppan to Boston for infielder Freddy Sanchez. With Boston, he pitched in 26 games and made one postseason appearance.

I think Theo might be amenable to switch someone for Carpenter

[Harry Hooper]

Seems more like that Freddy Sanchez-Brandon Lyon trade.


I think Theo might be amenable to switch someone for Carpenter

Theo, the Red Sox must be made whole.

[Van Everyman]

Paul Sullivan ‏ @PWSullivan
Cubs insist Theo compensation deal is over, despite Boston Herald report that Red Sox are "weighing options" cuz Carp's elbow.
Retweeted by Gordon Edes

Am I the only one who thinks the Cubs (ie, Theo and Jed) are being dicks about this? The Sox seemed to go out of their way to let Theo go where he wanted and when. They didn't have to let him go at all, much less before they had a compensation agreement worked out. Now, after months of refusing to even acknowledge that compensation was appropriate (because, as Theo said "it was just a promotion"), it turns out that the guy they sent over in the deal is damaged goods. Who knows how it all actually went down behind closed doors, but the defiant, indignant way the Cubs have handled this whole thing from the beginning just doesn't really sit right with me. And while the medicals may have told a very different story back in 2003, it does seem very much at odds with the approach the Sox took during the Sanchez-Lyon deal.

Edit: formatting

Edited by Van Everyman, 30 March 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[Tizzolator]

What a circus. What recourse could the Sox possibly have? Go back to The Commish?

[Bongorific]

What a circus. What recourse could the Sox possibly have? Go back to The Commish?

Win the whole damn thing.

[Van Everyman]

What did your parents tell you about assuming, Larry?

Gordon Edes ‏ @GordonEdes
In wake of Carpenter injury, L. Lucchino says Ben Cherington exploring comp issue w/Cubs. Damaged goods? "we assume evbdy acted in gd faith"

[OttoC]

Did Carpenter not pass physicals from both the Cubs and the Red Sox? If he did, I don't see anything other than "good will" changing the transaction.

[bd11]

Am I the only one who thinks the Cubs (ie, Theo and Jed) are being dicks about this? The Sox seemed to go out of their way to let Theo go where he wanted and when. They didn't have to let him go at all, much less before they had a compensation agreement worked out. Now, after months of refusing to even acknowledge that compensation was appropriate (because, as Theo said "it was just a promotion"), it turns out that the guy they sent over in the deal is damaged goods. Who knows how it all actually went down behind closed doors, but the defiant, indignant way the Cubs have handled this whole thing from the beginning just doesn't really sit right with me. And while the medicals may have told a very different story back in 2003, it does seem very much at odds with the approach the Sox took during the Sanchez-Lyon deal.



The sox fd this whole thing up from jump street. They not deserve to be bailed out by the commish or anyone else.

Edit: formatting

[NJ Fan]

Win the whole damn thing.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I totally agree. Hard to imagine that the Sox didn't do a thorough exam of his medicals. Seems like you just have to chalk this up to yet another aspect of this whole deal that stinks.

But if Sox were to win the 2012 WS, we'll obviously be able to give a glancing nod towards Theo's "contributions" to the roster in much the same way as Duquette gets credit for assembling much of the '04 roster that Theo inherited and augmented.

[Lose Remerswaal]

And even if they could get a do-over, they're gonna get their 2nd choice, who won't even be as good (relatively speaking, of course) as this guy was. Are you folks looking forward to bitching about another worthless acquisition?

[PaulinMyrBch]

I'm not an ortho, but a good friend of mine is and he is the team doctor and shoulder specialist for a ranked D1 baseball team. He does the intake physicals on each player yearly and tells me specifically he doesn't ever see clean arms on pitchers. He says he can't believe they'll make it through college let alone make it to the next level, and these are 19 year old arms he's talking about.

I don't think the medical team is ever looking at clean arms at this level, my guess is there are several issues with each physical, and the team ranks the issues from problematic to tolerable. I doubt they missed anything, probably more of a case of how urgent the problem is. But I seriously doubt there is an issue on the film that the doctors overlooked.

[The Boomer]

I doubt the Sox get a do over, nor should the Yankees who might have recieved damaged goods in Pineda:


Michael Pineda will undergo an MRI on his pitching shoulder after complaining of soreness on Friday.
The move could be purely precautionary after Pineda said he felt "normal" soreness following his Friday shellacking at the hands of the Phillies, but it's never good news when a pitcher requires a shoulder examination. The odds that Pineda opens the season in the Yankees rotation are rapidly dwindling. His status will be updated Saturday.

I have a feeling we will all be happy that Jesus Montero was exiled out west for the prime of his career rather than tormenting the Sox for years to come in the AL East.

[Pumpsie]

I doubt the Sox get a do over, nor should the Yankees who might have recieved damaged goods in Pineda:


Michael Pineda will undergo an MRI on his pitching shoulder after complaining of soreness on Friday.
The move could be purely precautionary after Pineda said he felt "normal" soreness following his Friday shellacking at the hands of the Phillies, but it's never good news when a pitcher requires a shoulder examination. The odds that Pineda opens the season in the Yankees rotation are rapidly dwindling. His status will be updated Saturday.

I have a feeling we will all be happy that Jesus Montero was exiled out west for the prime of his career rather than tormenting the Sox for years to come in the AL East.

Yeah, Pineda came in with a rep as a pitcher with a 96-97MPH fastball and he hasn't been able to get above 91-92 this ST. Guess we now know why.

[dbn]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I totally agree. Hard to imagine that the Sox didn't do a thorough exam of his medicals. Seems like you just have to chalk this up to yet another aspect of this whole deal that stinks.

But if Sox were to win the 2012 WS, we'll obviously be able to give a glancing nod towards Theo's "contributions" to the roster in much the same way as Duquette gets credit for assembling much of the '04 roster that Theo inherited and augmented.

This got me thinking about who was the GM when each of the current 40-man roster was acquired. This is what I've come up with (please correct me by PM if you see a mistake and I'll fix it). Players currently listed as on the active roster at the Red Sox website are in bold.


* Duquette
K. Youkilis

* Mike Port
J. Lester

* Epstein
D. Ortiz
D. Pedroia
D. Matsuzaka
J. Ellsbury
C. Buchholz
M. Bowden
F. Doubront
J. Tazawa
D. Bard
J. Iglesias
J. Lackey
D. McDonald
R. Kalish
J. Saltalamacchia
L. Anderson
L. Exposito
S. Pimentel
O. Tejeda
A. Gonzalez
C. Crawford
M. Albers
B. Jenks
A. Aceves
F. Morales
A. Miller
M. Aviles
R. Lavarnway
W. Middlebrooks
C. Lin
D. Britton
R. Hill

* No one
J. Beckett

* Cherington
K. Shoppach
M. Melancon
N. Punto
A. Bailey
R. Sweeney
C. Mortensen
C. Ross
C. Carpenter

[The Boomer]

While still relatively far away,

A. Kurcz

has the potential to be Cherington's best acquisition in his first offseason after taking over.

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

Believe it or not I agree with this..... Awhile ago I saw a ranking of the cubs top ten prospects and Kurczwasn't in there, but at the bottom of the page it had players to watch who weren't in the top 10, it had a blub about Kurcz'z stuff and attched video and he looked downright nasty, he threw hard and nothing was straight, every pitch had movement and just looked unhittable.

I had originally hoped Kurcz came over with Carpenter or some other top prospect and was dissapointed when all we got was Carpenter, I later was actually excited that Kurcz was added as the PTBNL...

I'll see if I can find the link I'm talking about.

[Kull]

I'll see if I can find the link I'm talking about.

[Beomoose]

This got me thinking about who was the GM when each of the current 40-man roster was acquired. This is what I've come up with (please correct me by PM if you see a mistake and I'll fix it). Players currently listed as on the active roster at the Red Sox website are in bold.

I think you could probably put Beckett, if not everyone from Beckett to the end of the list, under "Lucchino."

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I think you could probably put Beckett, if not everyone from Beckett to the end of the list, under "Lucchino."

There is no way -- no way in hell -- Lucchino wanted $3MM of Nick Punto.

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Win the whole damn thing.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I totally agree. Hard to imagine that the Sox didn't do a thorough exam of his medicals. Seems like you just have to chalk this up to yet another aspect of this whole deal that stinks.

But if Sox were to win the 2012 WS, we'll obviously be able to give a glancing nod towards Theo's "contributions" to the roster in much the same way as Duquette gets credit for assembling much of the '04 roster that Theo inherited and augmented.

Juuuust a bit outside...