701 replies to this topic

[JimBoSox9]

All of the "VALENTINE SUCKS DID YOU SEE HIM ON TV" folks must have missed Girardi on TV.

You'd be happy with Girardi being hired as the next Sox manager? Hypothetical, of course.

[Hendu's Gait]

Thank you.

Plus, what on god's green earth gives you the sense that (Pedroia notwithstanding) this organization likes guys with big mouths and personalities?

Pedro, Ortiz, Millar, Schilling all say hi.

[Ananti]

You'd be happy with Girardi being hired as the next Sox manager? Hypothetical, of course.

Yes, I would. Results are what matters.

[smastroyin]

Yes, I would. Results are what matters.

This is the stupidest fucking thing you have ever said. Results obviously don't matter to you, you care about banal tactical decisions and are stupid enough to think people want to hear you caterwaul about them every night.

Results? Terry Francona has gotten results that are enviable to any manager in the game, but you are willing to throw them away because it doesn't fit your little self-affirmation exercise.

Joe Girardi makes similar decisions to Terry Francona every damn night. And the argument that Tito is a product of his players is as applicable if not more to Girardi.

[rembrat]

You'd be happy with Girardi being hired as the next Sox manager? Hypothetical, of course.

For all the shit we give him he is actually a good manager, top 5 imo. He understands the metrics and he isnt afraid to wave his dick around. He might bunt and use the IBB a bit too much but usually gets the desired result. I also think he is a great tactician when it comes to utilizing his bench in late game scenarios.

[JimD]

Yes, I would. Results are what matters.

Sure he can replicate his results in Boston ... if he brings CC and Mo with him.

[dylanmarsh]

Looking back at this article, Francona was hired over the likes of Joe Maddon, Glenn Hoffman, and DeMarlo Hale. Hoffman is currently the Padres 3rd base coach (for the last 6 seasons) and has half a season of experience managing the 1998 Dodgers (47-41 record). He doesn't seem like a fit but, considering he was interviewed once, then I guess the Sox have some interest in him.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Looking back at this article, Francona was hired over the likes of Joe Maddon, Glenn Hoffman, and DeMarlo Hale. Hoffman is currently the Padres 3rd base coach (for the last 6 seasons) and has half a season of experience managing the 1998 Dodgers (47-41 record). He doesn't seem like a fit but, considering he was interviewed once, then I guess the Sox have some interest in him.

IIRC when Hoffman was interviewed he was apparently so umimpressove the Sox announced he was out of the running before he even got to Logan for his flight home.

Hale is the 3rd name on the list. He's on the staff now. He knows the players. Why wouldn't it be him?

[Ananti]

This is the stupidest fucking thing you have ever said. Results obviously don't matter to you, you care about banal tactical decisions and are stupid enough to think people want to hear you caterwaul about them every night.

Results? Terry Francona has gotten results that are enviable to any manager in the game, but you are willing to throw them away because it doesn't fit your little self-affirmation exercise.

Joe Girardi makes similar decisions to Terry Francona every damn night. And the argument that Tito is a product of his players is as applicable if not more to Girardi.

How long does any manager get to rely on past glory? Should the MFY have kept Torre? Forever?

I'm looking at 2011, and I'm looking at 2009 and 2010, and I'm not seeing results that some how "only Tito" can achieve. So I don't know why people act as though without him the Red Sox can't win in 2012.

[SoxScout]

Hale is the 3rd name on the list. He's on the staff now. He knows the players. Why wouldn't it be him?

Because maybe he was part of the problem, or at least wasn't part of the solution. Or maybe they don't want someone with such a close relationship to the coddled players.

[Ananti]

Sure he can replicate his results in Boston ... if he brings CC and Mo with him.

Is it that inconceivable that had Giradi (or somebody else, I'm not that a big fan of his anyway,) managed the Sox the last 3 years they'd have more than 0 playoff wins?

[JimD]

Is it that inconceivable that had Giradi (or somebody else, I'm not that a big fan of his anyway,) managed the Sox the last 3 years they'd have more than 0 playoff wins?

No, but I doubt they win any playoff series with the same roster, injuries, etc.

[Hendu's Gait]

Looking back at this article, Francona was hired over the likes of Joe Maddon, Glenn Hoffman, and DeMarlo Hale. Hoffman is currently the Padres 3rd base coach (for the last 6 seasons) and has half a season of experience managing the 1998 Dodgers (47-41 record). He doesn't seem like a fit but, considering he was interviewed once, then I guess the Sox have some interest in him.

Can we get him to coach 3rd, with a bump in pay? Maybe a title/responsibility bump, too, to help Lowrie and Iglesias with SS development.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Because maybe he was part of the problem, or at least wasn't part of the solution. Or maybe they don't want someone with such a close relationship to the coddled players.

But he's also a guy who knows how the ownership and FO want to run things, via a rational approach using both scouting and advanced statistical analysis.

[Ananti]

But he's also a guy who knows how the ownership and FO want to run things, via a rational approach using both scouting and advanced statistical analysis.

He's not the only one who can do that without the other baggage.

Edited by Ananti, 30 September 2011 - 12:54 PM.

[Van Everyman]

If this is true this is a remarkably stupid decision by the ownership. "Lack of urgency"? "Lack of urgency" worked pretty damn well when we were down 0-3 in the 2004 ALCS and pulled off THE GREATEST COMEBACK IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS on the way to the first championship in 86 years. "Lack of urgency" worked pretty damn well when we were down 1-3 in Cleveland facing their ace, and we started a winning streak that ended in the SECOND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, that was two more than many people have lived to see prior to Francona taking over this team.
"Lack of urgency" gets you a team cool and composed enough to stare down a seven-run deficit in the seventh inning of an elimination game and say, "We may go down in this series, but not today!" (And the irony that a similar 8-7 victory to the team we did this to may cost us THE BEST MANAGER IN RED SOX HISTORY is not lost on me.) I believed we were going to win the 2008 ALCS and go one to our third World Series championship, because the team, like its manager, was HARD TO KILL.

And last season, when injuries struck the club to such a degree that a 7-20 September record would have been explicable and we somehow fought to stay in contention until the last few days of the season, that is also a trademark of a club managed by THE BEST MANAGER IN RED SOX HISTORY.

And now they are going to dismiss all of that because of ONE BAD FUCKING MONTH? What happened to small sample size? The only person who could have managed this club better would have been Jesus Christ, because He could have healed Dice-K, Clay, Beckett, Bedard, et al, and allowed the team to run a real major league level starter out there every night instead of the dreck Francona had to rely on. If this is not Tito's decision to leave but the management's, then they are the ones who have turned this season from a footnote into a disaster.

Shame on them. I thought they were smarter than that.

So let's make sure JC is on the short list.

[chrisfont9]

Phillip Seymour Hoffman would be an intriguing choice.

What? We need fire. John Malkovich-level fire. Matt Damon is a possibility, there's nothing he can't do.

[chrisfont9]

Maddon and Farrell aren't walking through that door. It'd be nice, but until either of their contracts are up, forget it.

[Al Zarilla]

I kind of like the Dave Martinez idea though.

Whew, previous posts I saw had no first name and I could only think of Buck Martinez.

Won't pry him out of SF, but Bruce Bochy would be a good one to have, only mentioning him because Manuel and Maddon and other current mgrs have come up. I think Dave Righetti is as good a pitching coach as there is, but I have a feeling he's not interested in being a manager (from San Jose too). Giants manager in waiting is probably Steve Decker, currently the Fresno AAA team manager and has a great reputation. Bench coach Ron Wotus seems like a good one too, but might not be manager material. How come the Giants are so loaded in the coaching/manager area?

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Looking back at this article, Francona was hired over the likes of Joe Maddon, Glenn Hoffman, and DeMarlo Hale. Hoffman is currently the Padres 3rd base coach (for the last 6 seasons) and has half a season of experience managing the 1998 Dodgers (47-41 record). He doesn't seem like a fit but, considering he was interviewed once, then I guess the Sox have some interest in him.

I had forgotten that they had interviewed Maddon. At the time I assume they thought that he didn't have enough experience to handle the veteran squad that would become the historic 2004 Red Sox. But, especially based on the portrait of Maddon in Jonah Keri's "The Extra Two Percent," (not to mention the performance of the Rays since he's been manager) Maddon would be the ideal choice. Almost perfect.

I have no idea about his contract status in Tampa but if they could wrench him free (if in fact Tito is really gone) I would actually be excited.

[mt8thsw9th]

What part of Bobby V's 1117-1072 record, including presiding over one of the most disappointing teams in recent history (the 2001-02 Mets) gets people around here so excited?

I don't know, the amount of games they won over their expected won-loss record? You really think the Valentine era was worse than the Art Howe error?

Now I'm not saying Valentine should even be considered, but he's better than some of the candidates being mentioned.

[behindthepen]

I thought Macha was considered oddly uncommunicative by the players in Oakland. That doesn't seem very good if true.

I actually brought up the name because I know someone who played for him, and he liked him a lot. My guy also though Tito was way too hands-off, for whatever that's worth.

[joyofsox]

Maddon was the guy I wanted the Sox to hire back in 2003-04.

I also recall Larry Dierker being interviewed and saying some great things about progressive ideas.
Wiki says he is now a community outreach executive for the Astros.

[jtn46]

Any chance we can get Eric Wedge out of Seattle? I have always been a big fan of his.

EDIT- May be tough...we'd have to buy out 2 years...

He was pretty terrible in the '07 ALCS.

Maddon and Farrell aren't walking through that door. It'd be nice, but until either of their contracts are up, forget it.

Maddon's just signed through next season, so the Sox could go to a stopgap. I don't know if Maddon fits here, though. He's a good tactician, but he makes some really ugly lineups. The FO would have to keep scrappy bench players off the roster, else they end up batting 2nd against the Yankees.

[Al Zarilla]

He was pretty terrible in the '07 ALCS.


Maddon's just signed through next season, so the Sox could go to a stopgap. I don't know if Maddon fits here, though. He's a good tactician, but he makes some really ugly lineups. The FO would have to keep scrappy bench players off the roster, else they end up batting 2nd against the Yankees.

Is this tongue in cheek, because the Rays payroll is about one fourth that of the Red Sox.

[soxfan121]

1. If Tito steps down for health reasons (or simple burnout), and he's told the staff then the meetings today were about whether DeMarlo Hale is the right guy to take over, long term. He finished in the top 2 in 2004, has been a successful 3rd base coach, minor league manager and major league bench coach. If the organization wants continuity and stability, DeMarlo is the guy.

2. If Francona is being pushed, even slightly, then Hale is not an option. In that case it's about a fresh start and new voices/faces in charge on the field. In that case, I expect two or three "hot" managerial prospects, Larry Dierker, Eric Wedge, and every other suspect under the sun to get a look.

3. If nothing happens quickly, except for Tito announcing his retirement/resignation, then Theo is also exploring the market and the new GM will be given a say in the next manager. In that case, this could drag into November.

[Kramerica Industries]

Maddon's just signed through next season, so the Sox could go to a stopgap. I don't know if Maddon fits here, though. He's a good tactician, but he makes some really ugly lineups. The FO would have to keep scrappy bench players off the roster, else they end up batting 2nd against the Yankees.

What?? A stopgap?? A stopgap manager? Really?

Thats just insane.

The Red Sox will find a manager and it may not work out. It may only last one season. But they are not signing a manager with the idea going into it (!), that it will only last one season. That's going into a season believing that they wont be successful, which is unacceptable in this market.

[Lollardfish]

IIRC when Hoffman was interviewed he was apparently so umimpressove the Sox announced he was out of the running before he even got to Logan for his flight home.

Hale is the 3rd name on the list. He's on the staff now. He knows the players. Why wouldn't it be him?

The part of the Tito interview process I loved is that they put him through a series of interesting innings he had been through in the following year as bench coach (IIRC), asked him about his thought process in each, and how he'd handle it and all related subsequent moves. I'd assume that if Hale handled that part very well, he would have become manager, but perhaps in the years working with the team has developed.

That said, such an interview process is not a reputation-based hire, and that encourages me. I hope they repeat it.

[terrynever]

Associated Press just sent a news bulletin: Terry Francona is out.

More to follow.

[terrynever]

AP story:

BOSTON (AP) — The Terry Francona era is over in Boston, as the Red Sox will not pick up the option on his contract.

In a joint statement released on Friday after Red Sox brass met with the manager, owners John Henry, Tom Werner, and Larry Lucchino acknowledged a change was needed, and thanked Francona, who led the franchise to two world titles.

"Tito said that after eight years here he was frustrated by his difficulty making an impact with the players, that a different voice was needed, and that it was time for him to move on," the statement said. "After taking time to reflect on Tito's sentiments, we agreed that it was best for the Red Sox not to exercise the option years on his contract."

The statements ended a whirlwind day at Fenway Park that saw all of the principle parties shuttle in and out of the facility several times. Francona was in the building three different times.

Boston missed the playoffs despite leading the AL wild-card race by nine games on Sept. 4. It went 6-18 after that, ending with a 4-3 loss Wednesday in Baltimore.

[Jordu]

Surprised there's not more talk here about Tony Pena. It ended badly for him it KC, but whose tenure in KC doesn't end badly. He's got the toughness to get the clubhouse in order, the sense of humor to manage in Boston, and serious baseball smarts.

[Flynn4ever]

I will post in the "Thank You Tito" thread as well, but I honestly believe the best manager for 2012 would be Jason Varitek. It has been mentioned in other threads and it keeps enough of the old and brings some new. LaRussa was a player/manager, Girardi only spent a few years as a coach before becoming a good manager. Tek can do this.

[Rough Carrigan]

Surprised there's not more talk here about Tony Pena. It ended badly for him it KC, but whose tenure in KC doesn't end badly. He's got the toughness to get the clubhouse in order, the sense of humor to manage in Boston, and serious baseball smarts.

Tony Pena was apparently obsessed with using little ball strategies while he was the manager in KC. Someone over at Baseballthinkfactory did a great job reworking Poe to describe it. Quoth the Pena . . little ball.

And his rep for, um, stability off the field is not the best.

No thanks.

[Rough Carrigan]

I will post in the "Thank You Tito" thread as well, but I honestly believe the best manager for 2012 would be Jason Varitek. It has been mentioned in other threads and it keeps enough of the old and brings some new. LaRussa was a player/manager, Girardi only spent a few years as a coach before becoming a good manager. Tek can do this.

What's your basis for saying this? It's not logically impossible that it's true but it's nearly an arbitrary assertion.

[Harry Hooper]

Surprised there's not more talk here about Tony Pena. It ended badly for him it KC, but whose tenure in KC doesn't end badly. He's got the toughness to get the clubhouse in order, the sense of humor to manage in Boston, and serious baseball smarts.

Is there any evidence that he would embrace a rigorous analytical approach vs. old scratch-your-ass, bunt-happy tendencies?

[AZBlue]

I think the Sox need a Frank Robinson, Don Baylor, et al type manager. Credibility because of their major league career, very smart, very tough. Kirk Gibson would also fit but is unlikely to move.

[Flynn4ever]

What's your basis for saying this? It's not logically impossible that it's true but it's nearly an arbitrary assertion.

You're right, Rough, I didn't put much behind that. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that part of the Sox success throughout Tek's tenure here was partially due to his obsessive study of opposing hitters. Not to mention that he was a very good hitter himself until the past few years (and even with a bit of a comeback this year, for awhile.) That was on the edge at the time, and I feel he would continue to prepare players to know what to expect at all times. I also do not want to see some new face in the dugout. We don't suck, we need a tweak. Just my thoughts.

[wyatt55]

I think the Sox need a Frank Robinson, Don Baylor, et al type manager. Credibility because of their major league career, very smart, very tough. Kirk Gibson would also fit but is unlikely to move.

If Baltimore doesn't promote him, Norfolk Tides Manager Gary Allenson.

[Ananti]

I want a young, hungry guy who's ready to kick some butts.

Edited by Ananti, 30 September 2011 - 06:46 PM.

[SoxScout]

FWIW, Remy says Hale would have no problem managing with a firmer hand. But also questions if he is too close to Francona, ect.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Surprised there's not more talk here about Tony Pena. It ended badly for him it KC, but whose tenure in KC doesn't end badly. He's got the toughness to get the clubhouse in order, the sense of humor to manage in Boston, and serious baseball smarts.

Nobody can get past his .600 OPS he put up in his four years in Boston.

J/K, I'm with you. I think he'd be a great fit.

[SoxScout]

Torey Lovullo and Don Wakamatsu were both mentioned in places tonight. Gammons seemed to like Eric Wedge, said he has experience working with front offices similar to Boston, he has managed good teams, shitty teams, and will have a good grip on the clubhouse. Frankly, with what he will be working with, that might be more important than his tactical ability.

[allaboutthesox]

While we're vetoing people, it'd be nice if Maddon wasn't brought up either. No chance he makes that move. He's not an NCAA football coach.

Phillip Seymour Hoffman would be an intriguing choice. It'd also be fun to be on this board if they hired away Scioscia, just for the meltdowns. He'd turn Jacoby into Juan Pierre 2.0 in no time at all.

Well that sucks as he was my choice as I figured he [Maddon] would be looking to make the move from Tampa to a bigger market. It will be interesting to see who the managerial candidates might be. I think they will have to go with a proven commodity based on the make up of this team and the players on it right now.

[mauidano]

Torey Lovullo and Don Wakamatsu were both mentioned in places tonight. Gammons seemed to like Eric Wedge, said he has experience working with front offices similar to Boston, he has managed good teams, shitty teams, and will have a good grip on the clubhouse. Frankly, with what he will be working with, that might be more important than his tactical ability.

A plus is that he can grow a cool mustache.

[catomatic]

A plus is that he can grow a cool mustache.

Bud Black was in the mix last time around wasn't he?

Gary Allenson could be kind of interesting as a former Sox player. Eric Wedge fills me with meh.

[Harry Hooper]

Wedge is practically an adopted son for Old Hickory, so that endorsement is not surprising.

[SMU_Sox]

Talking to my Indians friends, and remembering a discussion about him on MLB radio, I want no part of Wedge. His game-time decision making is awful and he did not take some very good Indian teams farther than the ALCS. He strikes me as unimpressive.

[Ferm Sheller]

A Wedge hiring would make this game thread page very ironic. (Read all the way through.)

Edited by Ferm Sheller, 30 September 2011 - 09:14 PM.

[cannonball 1729]

Talking to my Indians friends, and remembering a discussion about him on MLB radio, I want no part of Wedge. His game-time decision making is awful and he did not take some very good Indian teams farther than the ALCS. He strikes me as unimpressive.

Moreover, he missed the playoffs altogether with some very good Indian teams - the 2005-06 incarnations were way better than their records showed (the 2006 version under-performed their Pythagorean by 11 games). He's always seemed to be the sort of guy who makes a team less than the sum of its parts.

[Rough Carrigan]

Moreover, he missed the playoffs altogether with some very good Indian teams - the 2005-06 incarnations were way better than their records showed (the 2006 version under-performed their Pythagorean by 11 games). He's always seemed to be the sort of guy who makes a team less than the sum of its parts.

Didn't he have some gratuitous policies like every guy had to wear a sport coat when the team was travelling? He's like the character of Chef in Apocalypse Now only instead of being too tightly wound for Nam, he's too tightly wound for Fenway.