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Crawling from the Wreckage: post-mortem game thread


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#151 canyoubelieveit

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:22 PM

It really does take a lot of the sting away now that the Rays have lost, Yanks have lost (in somewhat heartbreaking fashion), and Phillies have lost (in heartbreaking fashion). And the Braves' loss still helps to dilute the situation too.

At this point, I'm no longer upset about the way our season ended. It feels like an important piece of the fascinating narrative of this post-season. However, it does make me more disappointed that Francona won't be coming back. That part doesn't get diluted by the other events.

I'm sure the decision to let go of Tito was nuanced and not based on an immediate reactive move based on our dramatic collapse (as it kind of appeared to be...). But if there was any truth to the latter, I wonder if similar choices would still be made now that so many other dramatic playoff storylines have quickly taken the Sox's collapse out of the spotlight.

So much is ultimately determined by luck this time of year. I wish we hadn't let go of Tito.

#152 AimingForYoko


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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:24 PM

Yanks lost. Phils are out.

Go Tigers!

#153 InsideTheParker


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Posted 08 October 2011 - 08:18 AM

I'm consoling myself with the thought of how wrong the pundits can be. According to the MLBN talking heads, this March and April and perhaps later on, the WS was going to match up the Red Sox and the Phillies. I'm not particularly happy about the season ending for either team (sad about the Sox), but it's nice to see once again the folly of predicting the future even by an inning, but certainly for the season.

#154 BucketOBalls


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Posted 08 October 2011 - 09:48 AM

I'm consoling myself with the thought of how wrong the pundits can be. According to the MLBN talking heads, this March and April and perhaps later on, the WS was going to match up the Red Sox and the Phillies. I'm not particularly happy about the season ending for either team (sad about the Sox), but it's nice to see once again the folly of predicting the future even by an inning, but certainly for the season.


Me, I tell myself that, even if they got in, WAY better teams have lost the divisional series than the Sox, so no way they would get past it. Now I'm just hoping they don't lose Theo also.

#155 LeoCarrillo


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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:24 PM

Me, I tell myself that, even if they got in, WAY better teams have lost the divisional series than the Sox, so no way they would get past it. Now I'm just hoping they don't lose Theo also.


I made peace with "weren't going anywhere anyway" after Lester finished 0-3 in September, including a pounding in The Bronx.

The MFY wasted $50 million this year more than the Sox to NOT be champions. We win!!!

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 08 October 2011 - 04:53 PM.


#156 Brianish

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 06:41 PM

They also got five more games worth of playoff income.

#157 LeoCarrillo


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Posted 08 October 2011 - 11:59 PM

Team ownership gets a smaller postseason gate than most people would think.

First, they have to provide lots of tickets to MLB officials from other teams and players' families. Secondly, the Commissioner's Office takes 15 percent off the top. And the biggest bite, they lose 60 percent in most of the games to the players' pool.

Kind of interesting breakdown on players pool: The Players’ pool is created from 60% of the total gate receipts from the first four World Series Games; 60% of the total gate receipts from the first four games of each League Championship Series; and 60% of the total gate receipts from the first three games of each Division Series. The Pool is distributed as follows: World Series Winning Team: 36%; World Series Loser: 24%; League Championship Series Losers (two teams): 12% each; Division Series Losers (four teams): 3% each; Non-wild Card Second Place Teams (four teams): 1% each. The division of a team’s Players’ pool shall be made by a vote of the Players, in a meeting chaired by the Player Representative.

Of course, they do still sell a lot of souvenirs and beer. MFY surely made a few million, but it's not like they cleared 10's of millions on the three home games (to spend on Yu Darvish), or anything.

#158 Red PR

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:20 AM

http://mobile.boston...llapse?single=1

This...does not make me want to crawl from the wreckage. This is the doomsday scenario I envisioned happening to the Yanks after signings of Arod, Randy Johnson and countless other FA's, complacency, half hearten efforts and lack of interest. Well did not happen to them and happened here.

This scenario closes many doors as for one Hale cannot coach here. and many of the players are guilty for letting this get out of hand. (I think nobody had the fckin cojones to face up to Lackey)

I have been a RS fan for 20 years and never have I felt as disappointed and downright nauseous. I will be a fan still but difficult to be a fan of a team where influential multimillionaire players who with selfish interests have embarrassed this team to a level in my opinion maybe never seen.

#159 Fragile Freddie

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:34 AM

Let's see: manager gone, GM gone, revelations that some of these players we root so hard for are lazy and complete assholes. This has to be rock bottom, doesn't it?

#160 rajendra82

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:06 AM

Let's see: manager gone, GM gone, revelations that some of these players we root so hard for are lazy and complete assholes. This has to be rock bottom, doesn't it?


There have been several points where we thought that. Until we reach the center of the earth, we can't say it's the rock bottom magic depth. At that point there is no way but up.

#161 jacklamabe65


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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:44 AM

Rock bottom? Haywood, Buddy, and Mrs. Yawkey all say hi.

#162 doubleg

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:18 PM

Rock bottom? Haywood, Buddy, and Mrs. Yawkey all say hi.



In my eyes, whatever goodwill this ownership had in the bank with me after 2004 and 2007 is now gone; they force Tito out, allow Theo to walk, now they are shitting on Tito claiming personal and health issues affected his job performance this year, now to top it off, the sticking point on Theo leaving is how much fucking MONEY they want in return.



They don't want prospects; they want money.



Fucking unreal, what a collective group of carpet bagging assholes they are turning out to be.



Good luck with your "Fenway turns 100" bullshit ad campaign you come up with next year to peddle more crap; try putting a team on the field that can actually make the playoffs as your #1 goal, not how much merchandise you can peddle.

#163 AimingForYoko


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Posted 12 October 2011 - 05:05 PM

This is just a fucking trainwreck. Mess isn't strong enough of a word.

Good lord.

#164 Papo The Snow Tiger

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:09 PM

Rock bottom? Haywood, Buddy, and Mrs. Yawkey all say hi.



Grady Little also sends his regards.

#165 ToeKneeArmAss


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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:38 PM

This whole thing is making me feel like the Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons. First there's the carnage of the collapse, and as we crawl out of that, the bus carrying Tito out of town runs us over, quickly followed by the stagecoach carrying Theo from Boston to Chicago. And as we try to regain our senses, two boulders in the form of Hohler's and Giardi's exposés crash down on us.

But hey, we'll get em next year, right? :rolleyes:

#166 topps148

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:44 AM

Hope springs eternal.

Posted Image

#167 rajendra82

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 07:53 AM

Hope springs eternal.

Posted Image


Wile E. Coyote should not be bunting. A (3 run) bomb is more his style.

Edited by rajendra82, 14 October 2011 - 07:54 AM.


#168 LeoCarrillo


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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:34 AM

Ryan's column today brushed on a theme that got me started toward a summation of thoughts on Beer N' Chickengate. It's the notion of pro ballplayers caring less than the fans. Granted, we're pretty obsessive here and probably will care about the Sox from the age of cognizance, oh, 7 years old or so, until we're buried with our Sox caps on. Meanwhile, a player possibly grows up in the South or out West and only cares about the Sox as long as he's in the uniform. But they should always care about their level of performance. In fact, that's kind of what they're being paid for. Talent is a majority portion of a ballplayer's salary, sure. The gym-class spaz doesn't get a contract from the Celtics because he's all over your shit defensively yet can't finish a layup. But it's also presumed (and in 99 percent of cases likely) that regardless of talent, a huge amount of drive and desire must have also been required to reach the bigs. This is why we love Pedroia. He's the trifecta, really. 1. He's good; 2. He cares a lot; 3. He cares a lot about the Sox.

Let's be grown-ups. No. 3 is a bonus. It's a business. Guys get traded. Teams stuff you in the minors to avoid starting the clock on your arbitration. Fine. But at least have No. 2, caring about your performance and having competitive drive. This is where Lackey gets run over by the bus 1,000 times. In a season you're sucking and killing your team, you don't do beer n' chicken. And while I don't think these guys cared zilch, I would say that Beckett and whoever else was in the clubhouse should've cared more in September at a minimum. Get in the dugout. Period. Why? Because you're being paid both for your talent and to care a lot. Now. Not for having cared back in high school when you went running at midnight and lifted weights three times a day. Now.

If this sounds sanctimonious, then here's the core of my point. We, the people ... okay, we the fans who care a lot, for our whole lives and by the way pay a pretty decent amount of money to go to the games, can never find out that you, the players, don't care as much as us. Why? It screws the whole thing up. It makes us rightfully want to care less, and feel stupid for caring so much in the first place. And then, you the organization and ownership, are screwed when we stop showing up (in theory). It's a dangerous line to walk. You ever shoot a game of bar pool against a guy who doesn't care that much, half-asses shots and then goes back to drinking (beer) and eating (chicken maybe) and shooting the shit with the guys at his table. It sucks, and makes you not care either.

I never minded Drew's seeming indifference because I thought his detachment was part of his success, his iciness in pressure moments. Mixed results, fine. I never minded Manny's flakiness for similar reasons and more importantly because it was widely spoken about how he'd be the first guy in the cage every day. Extra hours of batting practice.

Did Manny give a shit about the Sox specifically? No. He cared about his performance. So he was 1. good; and 2. driven and so he didn't have 3. Pedroia's gung-ho Sox devotion. I'll take that.

The beer-and-chicken boys, by hanging out in the clubhouse, have committed the cardinal sin. They've exposed to us that they care less than we do. We watched every unpleasant inning while they played video games.

I will care less about the team, and root less for the team, until I see that change. Which, hopefully, is next April. And if it means a step back competitively in jettisoning Beckett, Papi and anyone else with entitlement, then do it. I don't know if most fans think this way, but I'd rather root for a young, driven team that scratches out 88 wins and fights for a wild card next season than pay money to watch a guy make 10s of millions who you know isn't invested emotionally because he's already gotten a Series ring or two.

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 15 October 2011 - 04:40 PM.


#169 bozzs

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

Grady Little also sends his regards.

Minds me of the bad ol days of 25 guys,25 cabs

#170 InsideTheParker


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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:59 AM

I will care less about the team, and root less for the team, until I see that change. Which, hopefully, is next April. And if it means a step back competitively in jettisoning Beckett, Papi and anyone else with entitlement, then do it. I don't know if most fans think this way, but I'd rather root for a young, driven team that scratches out 88 wins and fights for a wild card next season than pay money to watch a guy make 10s of millions that you know isn't invested emotionally because he's already gotten a Series ring or two.

I feel the way you do, but I doubt that most fans, including Soshers, do. That attitude is about as popular as bunting in these parts.

I've been thinking today that the arrogance of some of the team members, thinking that the play-offs were a given and that they could wait until then to turn it on, mirrors the opinions of most on this message board that missing the play-offs was out of the question and that anyone who suggested it as a possibility was misguided. (Expressed less politely.) Now perhaps most of the fans see what arrogance brings you. Maybe the players have learned the same thing and won't let it happen again. Maybe.

Edited by InsideTheParker, 15 October 2011 - 06:59 PM.


#171 Papi's fan

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

Hello, everybody. Mr. Arrogance,here. After a weekend of shock when Tito resigned I did a lot of soul searching and fired off an email to the
Sox blaming John Henry for the Sad September. I mentioned that I don't have to pay extra to watch my local team on TV & that the
Rangers have the Sox rightful RFer in David Murphy, so I would become a fulltime Texas fan. I was never in favor of the big contract given
J.D. Drew because I wanted to see how the former Baylor star would fare on my favorite team. I decided to post this after watching Murphy
get a huge hit in ALCS Game 6. I have felt very justified by my decision especially after the mention of Tito's medical issue. As a former
broadcast journalist I would have refused to report that bit of information, but I do know that if you make an editor or producer aware of
the possible issue it can be printed or released without your permission. Some people are blaming Peter Abraham for issues in the Hohler story,
but he may be a victim as well. Just remember that journalism is ful of vipers in a very competitive biz, about like being unpopular on game threads
on this board. I very much liked many posters here even many who disliked me but it's really about the laundry and I wish everyone here the best,
just like many of you are pulling for the Texas Rangers right now. Adios.

#172 snowmanny

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:55 PM

Good riddance.

#173 Brianish

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 08:33 AM

Good riddance.


Edit - Though I'd add that the Phillies are also winning a lot of games right now. Perhaps you could also feel a strong, character-based compulsion to root for them for a while.

Edited by Brianish, 16 October 2011 - 08:50 AM.


#174 judyb

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 08:48 AM

Read this:

http://www.fangraphs...ed-sox-janitor/

#175 unclebobo

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 11:21 AM

Read this:

http://www.fangraphs...ed-sox-janitor/


thank you, it was nice to crack a smirk

#176 LynnRice75

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:51 AM

I can't wait to get past all of this and start focusing on the fact that we have a great team ready to refocus and rebound.
I am tired of the 25 men, 4 six packs talk. (Dustin Pedroia abstaining.)
I am ready for the 2012 mantra: 100 Years/100 wins.

#177 LeoCarrillo


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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:54 PM

I am ready for the 2012 mantra: 100 Years/100 wins.


Something to kill time as we await The Cherringtonator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ku7QNRudg

Jon Lester, you are forgiven. You are forgiven, forgiven, forgiven ...

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 20 October 2011 - 11:54 PM.


#178 genoasalami

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 09:25 PM

BC-APNewsAlert,0102

CHICAGO (AP) -- Cubs hire Theo Epstein as head of baseball
operations.

#179 JBill

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 12:19 AM

I knew that Tito and Theo weren't going to be here forever. But I am really fucking depressed.

This whole thing is making me feel like the Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons. First there's the carnage of the collapse, and as we crawl out of that, the bus carrying Tito out of town runs us over, quickly followed by the stagecoach carrying Theo from Boston to Chicago. And as we try to regain our senses, two boulders in the form of Hohler's and Giardi's exposés crash down on us.

This about sums it up.

#180 BucketOBalls


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Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:24 AM

I hope we look back on this time as "it's always darkest before the dawn" or some such, but I'm really not seeing it right now. This whole offseason feels like the sort of reactionary carnage that happens to stupid teams. It was nice when the Sox were above this.

Heck, there is a 99% chance that the players will fix any clubhouse problems themselves next year. Didn't some of this leadership stuff(to a lesser degree) come out about the Bruins after 2010? I'm gonna guess conditioning won't be a problem next year(if it ever was).

This has been the most depressing offseason in a while. It's been a long time since a team I cared about has willfully made so may obvious stupid decisions. Very depressing.

Edited by BucketOBalls, 22 October 2011 - 09:25 AM.


#181 InsideTheParker


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Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:24 AM

It's funny, but I don't feel depressed and am sorry so many of you do. The decisions made last off-season were curious to me. I would have preferred keeping Beltre with Youks at first. Gonzalez is wonderful but slow as molasses. He really clogs up the base-paths. I winced when the Sox signed Crawford, thinking that they were affected by the defensive awfulness of the Sox catchers, who made Crawford look like a better player than he is. However, if a bad hamstring hamstrung him this season, maybe next season will be better.

There are lots of good players remaining on the Sox, and those who were "shamed" by Beergate ought to appear in better shape next year. All the hoopla may make that more likely. Unload Lackluster, sign another pitcher or two, and let's see what happens.

To me, this is like a play. It will be interesting to see what the third act unfolds.

#182 Sprowl


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Posted 22 October 2011 - 12:22 PM

It's funny, but I don't feel depressed and am sorry so many of you do.

Me neither. Theo and Tito have served us well and will be missed, but the time had clearly come to move on. They are not irreplaceable, and their talents were not well matched to undoing the damage done by the September meltdown and the accumulated free agent head-scratchers.

The decisions made last off-season were curious to me. I would have preferred keeping Beltre with Youks at first. Gonzalez is wonderful but slow as molasses. He really clogs up the base-paths. I winced when the Sox signed Crawford, thinking that they were affected by the defensive awfulness of the Sox catchers, who made Crawford look like a better player than he is. However, if a bad hamstring hamstrung him this season, maybe next season will be better.

I loved the Gonzalez acquisition, and still do. Too bad they didn't keep Beltre as well, since he is looking like MVP material in Texas. Crawford should be better, but he'll never be as good as when he was running on Tek.

To me, this is like a play. It will be interesting to see what the third act unfolds.

If it's a three-volume novel of more than usually revolting sentimentality, then in the third part virtue triumphs, the bad guys get their comeuppance (or their tumbledownance), and it closes on a high note.

#183 mikepnq

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:11 PM

If it's a three-volume novel of more than usually revolting sentimentality, then in the third part virtue triumphs, the bad guys get their comeuppance (or their tumbledownance), and it closes on a high note.

Does this mean Lackey will light himself on fire and take a running leap off the monster?

#184 Sprowl


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Posted 22 October 2011 - 04:11 PM

Does this mean Lackey will light himself on fire and take a running leap off the monster?


I'm thinking that, one way or the other, the Chin will be launched out of town.

Like a rocket full of toxic waste being disposed of in outer space, I just hope that he doesn't blow up before he has exited the atmosphere.

#185 AMS25

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:29 PM

It's funny, but I don't feel depressed and am sorry so many of you do.


I'm not depressed, either. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new guy (Cherington) can do, and foresee an interesting off-season. Time to purge the team (figuratively) of its poor performers and to add some new guys to the mix.

What I'm annoyed about is the NBA lockout. I was looking forward to using basketball to get me through the winter. Now, I'm stuck, watching football, not my favorite sport.

#186 Sprowl


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Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:35 PM

What I'm annoyed about is the NBA lockout. I was looking forward to using basketball to get me through the winter. Now, I'm stuck, watching football, not my favorite sport.

I'm trying to cultivate an interest in hockey, although it's a bit of a struggle. The NBA will rue the day it took our interest for granted. :angry:

#187 AMS25

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:53 PM

I'm trying to cultivate an interest in hockey, although it's a bit of a struggle. The NBA will rue the day it took our interest for granted. :angry:


This. The NBA will take a hit, though I'm lucky to be the fan of a young team (Thunder). I think the Thunder's best days are still ahead. But, I'm annoyed. And, not particularly interested in football, despite living in Sooner territory. (We're #3!)

#188 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:45 AM

Jon Lester, you are forgiven. You are forgiven, forgiven, forgiven ...

So who plays the role of Ivar the Engine Driver in this version? A bucket of buffalo wings? Posted Image

If it's a three-volume novel of more than usually revolting sentimentality, then in the third part virtue triumphs, the bad guys get their comeuppance (or their tumbledownance), and it closes on a high note.

"The good will end happily, and the bad unhappily. That is what 'restoring order' means." --Miss Prism

BTW, did anybody see this morning's Globe? It's perfectly characteristic of this offseason that the Sox can't escape involvement even in a restaurant fish-labeling scandal (Papi's restaurant in Framingham was mentioned as one of the offenders).

#189 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:42 PM

TOMMY JOHN'S BACK, AND HE'S BACK BIG!!!!

#190 bloodysox

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 06:01 PM

It's funny, but I don't feel depressed and am sorry so many of you do. The decisions made last off-season were curious to me. I would have preferred keeping Beltre with Youks at first. Gonzalez is wonderful but slow as molasses. He really clogs up the base-paths. I winced when the Sox signed Crawford, thinking that they were affected by the defensive awfulness of the Sox catchers, who made Crawford look like a better player than he is. However, if a bad hamstring hamstrung him this season, maybe next season will be better.

There are lots of good players remaining on the Sox, and those who were "shamed" by Beergate ought to appear in better shape next year. All the hoopla may make that more likely. Unload Lackluster, sign another pitcher or two, and let's see what happens.

To me, this is like a play. It will be interesting to see what the third act unfolds.

Wait, so you wish the Red Sox didn't trade and extend Gonzalez?




#191 mt8thsw9th


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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:42 PM

Yeah, he clogs the "base-paths"!!!11

#192 Red PR

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:25 AM

Its almost December and feels like we are still crawling from the wreckage, thanks super ownership buffoons.

#193 InsideTheParker


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Posted 29 November 2011 - 11:24 AM

Wait, so you wish the Red Sox didn't trade and extend Gonzalez?



I was excited about the Gonzalez trade and dismayed by the Crawford acquisition. The season turned out about as I had expected for those two, but in retrospect, I would have been happy keeping Beltre with Youks at first because Youks is so much better there, in my opinion, than at third, and because I can remember (but not cite without doing research I don't have time for), so many games in which AG's slowness affected the game negatively. His bat is tremendous, of course, and I am glad enough that the Sox have him.

#194 JBill

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:22 AM

I was really sad to see Theo go, but forget that now, now im just pissed, you left us and now we suffer Bobby Valentine, Theo, Bobby Valentine!

Edit:

This has been the most depressing offseason in a while. It's been a long time since a team I cared about has willfully made so may obvious stupid decisions. Very depressing.

And to think, you said this before Lucchino publicly undermined his new GM in order to hire...Bobby Valentine! It's all like a very bad dream.

Edited by JBill, 30 November 2011 - 01:35 AM.


#195 S. H. Frog

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 08:07 PM

I for one welcome the Red Sox 2012 season. The baseball off-season is ponderous and speculative, like Melville or Tolstoy. I want the actions of actors on stage, like Dostoyevsky, or Mamet, or even P. G. Wodehouse, with Bobby Valentine as Jeeves, deftly untying some knot, or maybe as some muddled aristocrat, scheming everything into a hashed-up mess. Let them at it, I say, even if it is only Carl Crawford poking Clay Buchholz in the snoot, or Jon Lester hung out to dry in the press for accepting mediocrity. I want the games, that's what I want.

#196 Sprowl


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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:48 PM

Its almost December and feels like we are still crawling from the wreckage, thanks super ownership buffoons.

Nick Punto. :o


It's mid-December, and we're not out of the wreckage yet.

#197 AMS25

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:01 PM

Nick Punto. :o


It's mid-December, and we're not out of the wreckage yet.


Kelly Shoppach? Mark Melancon? Nick Punto? The 2012 baseball season? I say, "Bring it on!" Ben is the man.

Seriously, there have been two good things about the off-season so far.

1. The biggest (new) sports scandals have not been about the Red Sox (not counting the one from pre-2003 era -- that's old news). Chicken and beer? Ryan Braun's alleged PED use and Sandusky underscore the silliness of the portentious news coverage of the collapse.

2. Basketball is back.

So, welcome, Nick Punto. I here you're a winner. Kelly? May you throw out more baserunners than Tek. And Melancon? Hope you're a hidden gem I just never paid much attention to before.

#198 BucketOBalls


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Posted 22 December 2011 - 12:13 AM

Nick Punto. :o


It's mid-December, and we're not out of the wreckage yet.


And now a guy who's only ML pitching coach experience is....the Royals. For a team that supposedly wasn't prepared for the stretch run. Well...hope it works. If you get fired by the Royals though...