197 replies to this topic

[Sprowl]

Wipeout!!!!


It's just after midnight Eastern Daylight Time, and our daylight is all gone. This thread is for post-mortems, recriminations, and wipeouts: crawling from the wreckage of the 2011 Boston Red Sox.




Oh yeah, No Yankee Success game thread rule is re-imposed. Everything else is fair game.

[Kull]

"We'll always have Atlanta"

[The Filthy One]

I hope they don't fire Tito. They need to do something to shake up the team, but right now, I have no clue what thing might be (A public execution of John Lackey? Just spitballing here.). They were banged up and the pitching was over-extended, and so many things just flat out didn't go their way.

I have to say this: The last time I felt this way was in 2003, and now, I actually don't even flinch when I think about that. It was merely prelude to 2004. I'm hoping the same is true here. Let's shake some shit up this offseason, and I don't mean by signing that piece of shit Jose Reyes.

[Brianish]

Blow it up.

Not entirely, but this team for real needs to get younger, healthier, and less complacent. You don't need to fire everyone, but this kind of collapse doesn't happen for no reason. Look critically at everyone: players, coaches, front office members, and ask if the team is better with them around. You shouldn't overreact, but no one should be safe. You've gotta ask yourself why this happened.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Fire Bogar. For the love all things holy fire Bogar. Should have been done a long time ago and probably would have made the difference between playing more games in 2011 and not. Not that a whole host of other things didn't go wrong, but this was an easily fixable problem that the organization completely ignored for some reason. It's a bigger mystery than the Okajima thing.

[Kull]

Destiny was right there for the taking. She was giving Paps the sultry, come hither looks, stroking her thighs and batting her lashes, but no. Instead he went home with Karma. And she's a real bitch.

Edit: And speaking of karma, a large percentage of the Sox fans on this site spent a significant amount of time over the past few weeks rooting for the Yankees. I know why you did it, but still. You took karma home too.

Edited by Kull, 28 September 2011 - 11:35 PM.

[Plympton91]

Some form of blowing it up is my inclination as well, but unfortunately some of the biggest square pegs trying to fit into round holes are on massive immovable contracts or players with no obviously better replacement for 2012 or for that matter beyond next year. There's nothing you can do with Carl Crawford except hope he rededicates himself to his workout regimen over the winter (and any enhancements to that regimen he might have skipped this season) so that he becomes worthy of playing leftfield in a major league lineup. If you're going to hit .260 with no walks, you gotta at least steal 70 base s like he used to. There's nothing you can do with John Lackey except hope that he needs Tommy John surgery and can come back for 2013 and 2014 looking something like the pitcher he was in 2009. If you let Ortiz go, you are almost certainly increasing the odds of another 3rd place (or worse) finish next season, because the most logical places for him to end up are the other 4 teams in the American League East. Is there anyone who still thinks Daniel Shiraldi-Bard can be a closer? He was probably the biggest choking dog on the entire team for the past month.

They need to calmly fill the holes on the team and reload for next year. Get Ortiz and Papelbon signed, get everyone who can get healthy, healthy, sign a capable stopgap rightfielder to bridge to Kalish, a 4th starter, and a lefthanded set up man and you're done. They'll get younger by gradually working in Lavarnway to the catcher rotation, hopefully by replacing Scutaro with Iglesias in 2013, and easing Weiland, Wilson, Doubront, and Tazawa into the bullpen or 5th rotation slot. Your trading deadline pickups are Matsuzaka and Hill; and hopefully Middlebrooks and Kalish are knocking on the door by next September.

[mikeford]

As a 26 year old, I feel like I finally understand 1978.

[BucketOBalls]

Crawford should be slipped steroids till he either hits like a left fielder is supposed to or they get out of his contract.

[LeoCarrillo]

Tip of the cap to Tampa. They beat us 6 of 7 in September. They deserve it.

Plan ahead to re-sign Ells at all costs. Tito just fully used up half his '04 and '07 goodwill. One or two more years without a World Series appearance and adios.

And adios, SoSH for the winter. Enjoyed very much being here.

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 28 September 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[AimingForYoko]

Don't fire Tito. Fire Bogar.

Fuck Tampa.

And the less I think about Crawford/Horseface II, the better.

[jtn46]

Tip of the cap to Tampa. They beat us 6 of 7 in September. They deserve it.

Fuck Tampa. They don't deserve shit, they needed every single Red Sox loss to get in, and additionally, they needed Joe Girardi to manage like it's Spring Training for 3 days. This is solely about the Sox absolutely sucking for a month and nothing else. If it was Anaheim that was chasing them they would have probably figured out how to lose a few more games.

Plan ahead to re-sign Ells at all costs.

Sox have him through 2013.

[The Gray Eagle]

[The Gray Eagle]

[The Gray Eagle]

[The Gray Eagle]

[The Gray Eagle]

[The Gray Eagle]

[Yaz1967]

this fucking sucks

[cptcarl]

As a 26 year old, I feel like I finally understand 1978.

Though your sentiment is quite welcome to me, the 1978 team was much, much better than the 2011 Red Sox. It's still hard to believe they didn't win it all that year. They did have one of the stupidest human beings ever to manage a major league team at the helm, and that was hard to overcome. By comparison, Tito, reputed to be a below average game manager (if not deservedly, at least defensibly) is light years brighter than the Gerbil.

Edited by cptcarl, 29 September 2011 - 12:30 AM.

[patinorange]

As a 26 year old, I feel like I finally understand 1978.

It was worse. But I have to say, tonight did bring back some memories. Nothing compares to 1986, nothing.

Hey, this team didn't even make the fucking "play in" game.

To me, 2008 was worse. What could have been.

[Hendu's Gait]

First loss all year when leading after 8.

Back to 1919-2003 form.

Edited by Hendu's Gait, 29 September 2011 - 12:54 AM.

[Sprowl]

It was worse. But I have to say, tonight did bring back some memories. Nothing compares to 1986, nothing.

Hey, this team didn't even make the fucking "play in" game.

To me, 2008 was worse. What could have been.

Yeah, 1986 was the worst. Nothing else can compare, not taking out Johnson pinch-hitting for Willoughby or Joe Morgan's bloop in 1975, not Bobby Sprowl, Don Zimmer, or Bucky Dent in 1978, not even 2003.

2008 was such a good team, and came so close. 2011 choked. 2011 was a hard team to love, Ellsbury, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Aceves notwithstanding.

[LeoCarrillo]

Fuck Tampa. They don't deserve shit, they needed every single Red Sox loss to get in, and additionally, they needed Joe Girardi to manage like it's Spring Training for 3 days. This is solely about the Sox absolutely sucking for a month and nothing else. If it was Anaheim that was chasing them they would have probably figured out how to lose a few more games.
Sox have him through 2013.

Well, Tampa's better than us right now (given no Youkilis and half a starting rotation). And Girardi's team took 3 of 4 off Tampa a week ago in The Bronx to even keep us in it, so it's not on him.

And yes, I know that Ellsbury is not a free agent this winter. But he will cost about $19 million per in a few years. More immediately, we need a RF and a closer and might need to bite down hard and choose either Papi or Youk. Especially if Papi wants three years.

I don't get the Tampa hate. They're completely home-grown. None of their starters are over 30 years old. Maddon's three times the in-game tactician that Tito is. Their payroll is 1/4 of the Sox's. They don't whine like Showalter. Who on their team is even unlikeable? What, Upton cadillac's it a little. Shit, they even traded the spitter Garza. They even winged it and went goofy on Manny and Damon, and Manny washes out immediately. Stadium sucks. Cowbells are annoying. But I can't think of a more overachieving and deserving team of success in all of MLB.

Or I'm wrong and Jennings, Joyce, Fuld, Longoria, Shoppach and Zobrist are exactly what's wrong with modern professional sports.

Edited by LeoCarrillo, 29 September 2011 - 01:04 AM.

[SemperFidelisSox]

[103mph Screwball]

I don't get the Tampa hate. They're completely home-grown. None of their starters are over 30 years old. Maddon's three times the in-game tactician that Tito is. Their payroll is 1/4 of the Sox's. They don't whine like Showalter. Who on their team is even unlikeable? What, Upton cadillac's it a little. Shit, they even traded the spitter Garza. They even winged it and went goofy on Manny and Damon, and Manny washes out immediately. Stadium sucks. Cowbells are annoying. But I can't think of a more overachieving and deserving team of success in all of MLB.

Or I'm wrong and Jennings, Joyce, Fuld, Longoria, Shoppach and Zobrist are exactly what's wrong with modern professional sports.

Have to, unfortunately, agree. While the city of Tampa, specifically it's "fans", or lack thereof, can go fuck themselves, I can't hate on the Rays. That being said, this is the year that Wake and Tek have to go. I love both of them, both some of my favorite players ever, but theres a time when you have to let go, and with these two, now is the time. Neither of them have a place on a team that wants to contend for a championship, unless it's coaching. I'm not blaming them for anything this year, there others for that, but I can't see how these guys have a place on this team come spring

[right_arm_of_God]

Drew misplayed a ball in RF earlier in the game to go along with Crawford's game ending flub with rainbow throw. Dreamboat didn't drop anything tonight.

The infield made several superlative plays. That 6-4-3 DP: Scutaro shovels to Pedrioa and then Dusty did the rest. The kid catcher executing a perfect tag at the plate.

Lester gritted it out like the #1 / Ace he is. The pen, even Bard, held the lead until Paps blew up completely.

Pedrioa was a laser show, the other big guns not so much. There were plenty of men on base, but not many runs.

In the end all that can be said is the team could not make enough plays to beat the Orioles on the last and most important game of the season.

I certainly hope that the Sox players that remain on the team for next year remember the level of effort the Orioles put in during this final series and rip their miserable Oriole throats out next year.

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

Even tonight Lester wasn't "Ace" like (I know, three days rest). And Beckett was just as ineffective in the past weeks.

I have my doubts about this rotation going forward (and that's not even including Lackey). Lester has to get back to being more aggressive with the fastball, and working the curveball with more regularity.

But how can this not weigh heavy on anybody's mind: how poorly these two guys pitched when their team needed them the most? That's pretty alarming.

EDIT: The only thing that makes me smile from this season was the quote: "If I wake up tomorrow, I'm good". Aceves was sensational. Love that guy.

Edited by greek_gawd_of_walks, 29 September 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[Sprowl]

Even tonight Lester wasn't "Ace" like (I know, three days rest). And Beckett was just as ineffective in the past weeks.

Lester was pretty good, considering the short rest and the execrable performances by the other starters in September, but consider Chris Carpenter's line for the Cardinals: 9 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 11 K, Win. That's ace-like.

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

I can't even bring myself to pull up ESPN or the box score from tonight. I'll avoid any TV showing sports highlights for a few days (in this case, maybe a few weeks).

This hurts so much because it was directly ahead of us, and we could see it clearly all the way. Like a car without breaks, we glided closer and closer, while we wailed and gnashed our teeth. We were a stunned boxer praying to be saved by the bell.

[mikeford]

Let me just say that I am very much NOT looking forward to facing Matt Moore for the next 6+ years on Tampa and then god knows how long on NYY.

[jmcc5400]

As a 26 year old, I feel like I finally understand 1978.

A little bit. But, as I mentioned in another thread, at least the '78 Sox found redemption in forcing a playoff by winning 12 of 14 and their last 8. And they were vying for the best record in baseball at 99-63. This team lost out in the race for 4th place in the American league, despite having massive economic advantages over its closest competitor. 1978 was hearbreaking. This was pathetic.

[derekson]

Anyone who can't see that Francona's time in Boston is over is out of touch with reality.

There are going to be huge shakeups after this collapse. This team was complacent, passive, and then when the time came to actually turn up the intensity, they couldn't do it. It happened at the start of the season in April, and it happened in September. The second this became a real race in September these guys wilted under the pressure and Francona did nothing about it.

They took their foot off the gas at the end of August and started holding LOOGY tryouts as Randy Williams, Franklin Morales, etc. were put into tight games to see what they could do. They dicked around with a 6 man rotation because they wanted to keep trying Miller and wanted to get Wakefield his 200th win because of sentimentality. And when it came time to start playing to win to solidify their position, they just couldn't do it.

Edited by derekson, 29 September 2011 - 02:48 AM.

[CaptainLaddie]

That's a really nice design.

[CaptainLaddie]

Hard to blame Gonz. Dude had 3 IBBs tonight.

[Solder]

I'm 30, so I can't compare this to 1078.

But I will say that as much a kick to the nuts as this is, it's NOTHING like 2003.

This team wasn't anywhere near as likable, and I genuinely think they gave up a ton of individual appearances, and thus gave up a lot of games they should have won.

In order of preference, Go Tigers / Rangers / Rays!

See ya'll in 2012. Better times ahead.

[mauidano]

That's a really nice design.

It'll look great on the Somalian kids.

[mauidano]

I can't even bring myself to pull up ESPN or the box score from tonight. I'll avoid any TV showing sports highlights for a few days (in this case, maybe a few weeks).

This hurts so much because it was directly ahead of us, and we could see it clearly all the way. Like a car without breaks, we glided closer and closer, while we wailed and gnashed our teeth. We were a stunned boxer praying to be saved by the bell.

After the game, just listened to music and watched the network shows i like. NO sports news for a couple days as I recover. Friends even MFY friends have been consolable. I keep coming back here to where other's understand my pain. We all took this road together through the highs and too many lows. I appreciate the "misery loves company" comradeship.

[Red PR]

After all is said and done I hope Tito stays by far not his best year. If Crawford had issues, multiply those by 10 after this shit show of a season and his non catch only makes it worse. He has looked scared from day one, no way out with that contract, really wish there was one

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Look, '78, '86 and '03 were worse BY DEFINITION.

The Red Sox to that point had not won a championship in my lifetime or my parents lifetimes. Even in 1978, no one under the age of about 65 could credibly claim to remember a Red Sox championship. As much as I hated and scoffed at the "curse" bullshit, it really felt in those years that we were doomed and that to be a Red Sox fan meant to suffer eternally. I fully expected the epitaph on my gravestone to read, "He Never Saw The Red Sox Win It All."

But all of that changed in '04 in the most perfect, storybook way possible. Then the '07 Chamoionship came along to validate that '04 experience and reaffirm that it wasn't all just a dream.

So as crappy as I feel about this team right now, it doesn't even compare to the abject depression I experienced in '78, '86 and '03 -- not to mention the intervening years when it seemed like they would never get it done. This year was a terrible, depressing performance by my favorite sports team. Those previous collapses were a negation of my very existence and everything I like to think I stand for.

There's a huge difference.

[genoasalami]

The money printing machine on Yawkey Way is going to have to stop handing out ridiculous free agent contracts. They can't be eating contracts like Lackey and living with Crawford's production at his cost forever. Theo is tying his hands with the amount of $$$$ he has blown.

[gatorgurl67]

So Lackey is getting divorced. Leaving his wife while going through cancer. Nice stand up guy. Hopefully she kicked his ass to the curb. On the bright side at least half the money we are paying him will go to her.

[mikeford]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Horseface had a prenup.

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

There is literally nothing Carl did right this year. Every reason to sign the guy was a reason to hate him. He couldn't steal, because he couldn't get on base, because he has the patience of an obese man in the Cheesecake Factory. He couldn't hit because of said patience, because he was constantly in an 0-2. And the only time he was able to use his speed consistently (out in the field) he was a negative ball player there. I don't know the SABR numbers for defense very well, but Crawford, for someone who was supposed to be able to not only create runs, but save runs, did neither. In fact, the opposite. He gave them away.

Crawfraud.

Anyways, I woke up this morning, showered, and put on the reddest Red Sox shirt I have. Did I want to? Not really. But I couldn't not do it. As a fan of this team from childhood, this is something I needed to do. This was an obligation; a necessity. In good conscience, I could never wear a Sox shirt after a huge win or Championship again if I didn't. Even after last night, nothing changes 04 or 07. Those are my two best moments in life. They gave me that. While last night fuckensuckedmassiveballs, I still remember the way I felt after those wins, and I'm kind of buoyed. But I had to wear a shirt, or hat, or something to represent this team. Even though I didn't want to. I had to. I did this when they lost in 08, swept by the Angles in 09, and after they went quietly in 10. In 11, I am no different.

Edited by greek_gawd_of_walks, 29 September 2011 - 12:52 PM.

[LynnRice75]

Anyways, I woke up this morning, showered, and put on the reddest Red Sox shirt I have. Did I want to? Not really. But I couldn't not do it. As a fan of this team from childhood, this is something I needed to do. This was an obligation; a necessity. In good conscience, I could never wear a Sox shirt after a huge win or Championship again if I didn't. Even after last night, nothing changes 04 or 07. Those are my two best moments in life. They gave me that. While last night fuckensuckedmassiveballs, I still remember the way I felt after those wins, and I'm kind of buoyed. But I had to wear a shirt, or hat, or something to represent this team. Even though I didn't want to. I ahd to.

I am wearing a Sox shirt, too. It's what I do. Last night was perhaps the most bizarre evening of baseball I have ever witnessed. I love the sport. I love the Sox.
So many odd moments combined to bring us to this point. You can recite a plethora of tiny incidents - choices - gaffs- bad calls - that could have changed our fate.
I am bummed. Will be for a while, but this is not an unexpected feeling after watching this team the last month.
The emptiness of a non-Sox post season will wane and the excitement of a new season will return in the New Year.
As others have stated - this is nothing compared to the end of 08, the pain of 03, or the sadness of 78. Those were better and more likeable teams with real chances of winning it all.
Let's hope the team we field in 2012 will learn from this season and give us that chance again.

[rajendra82]

I had to let the shock of last night subside a bit before I could bring myself to post. At this point I am not asking for Tito's head, but I would not be sad if a change was made. I think it's time to bring someone more proactive to the position. Last night's 6th inning was a good example of this. Lester had clearly begun to labor after 70 pitches at the end of 5th, and predictably started to struggle with his command in the 6th. We did not get anyone up, nor send Young out there until there were two on, and disaster almost struck again. Why was Albers not warmed up to begin the inning? Why was Young not sent out at the first sign of control problems? In the end we escaped unscathed out of that inning, but those were bad decisions. What we are seeing is the bad decisions adding up over the course of a season into underachievement. I wouldn't mind someone like Jim Hickey brought in to replace Tito, but I don't demand it. If Tito was to make a few changes, he could be on the top of his game again, and I am willing to give him another year.

These are people I wish to not see back:
Curt Young
Tim Bogar
Jason Varitek
Tim Wakefield
J. D. Drew
Theo Epstein

These people should only be back under favorable terms for the team:
Jonathan Papelbon
David Ortiz

While Lackey and Crawford are both gigantic waste of resources. I don't see a way to get out from those contracts without eating an unacceptable amount of money. We can hope that enought shame has been brought upon them for them to try for a bounce back year in 2012.

[Rooster Crows]

Not meaning to bring up the old intangibles debate, but in addition to the obvious errors and performance dips and dives, there was a complete lack of player leadership, particularly among the pitchers and the pen, and when the least little thing can give you the edge, I think it matters. Although I was in it 200% 'til there was no "it" anymore, one particular image recently resonated. I can't get it out of my head and I remember getting a bad feeling in my gut. It was late innings recently of a "big" game (haven't they all been?), we were either a run up or a run down, 2 men on base, heart of the order up. They showed the bull pen: Aceves is banging on the roof ala the 2007 Pirates Cove, like his life depended on it - trying to get something going. The rest of the pen looked at him with blank stares or walked away. Contrast that with 2007 and Cap'n Timlin, an Oki who wasn't afraid of his own shadow, a Papelbon who ocassionally thought about the team as much as how great he is . . . .Where was this team's Timlin, Schilling, Millar or Damon, for that matter (remember the rising hand as Damon is carted off the field), etc.?

Edited by Rooster Crows, 29 September 2011 - 08:12 AM.

[TomBrunansky23]

Who's excited for even-year Beckett?

[Sprowl]

They showed the bull pen: Aceves is banging on the roof ala the 2007 Pirates Cove, like his life depended on it - trying to get something going. The rest of the pen looked at him with blank stares or walked away.

Leadership isn't worth nearly as much when the band won't follow, especially in the Percussion Section.

On the bright side, Aceves would have been a lock for the TJ Contest if the team made the playoffs. After pitching 4 games in a row, he would have pitched every playoff game too. Now he can take a rest.

[redsoxcentury]

This team, with all of its supposed talents, won ONE more game than the 2010 squad, that was absolutely destroyed by injuries, and relied on the unbelievable talents of Darnell mcDonald, et al.

Goodbye to the following: Drew, Varitek, Wakefield and (hate to say it) Papelbon. You can come back for decent money if you're Scutaro, Papi or Aceves. You can go on the DL for a year until you get yourself together if you're Lackey.

And if you're Crawford and Gonzalez (now on 2 teams in a row who collapsed down the stretch!), review what it takes to come through in spite of the difficulties. You better figure it out now, because, unless you want to (and are allowed) to rip up your contracts, you're here for a very long time.