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Which Heads Will Roll?


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#351 zenter


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:12 AM

Mock if you will...I still think Valentine manages this team next year. Francona has just been pistol whipped by Maddon for 4 years now...if you want a better game tactician, he's it. Girardi and Maddon are a-holes, but they are moving on and we aren't.

I'll mock. In-game tactics are measurable by what metric? And by what measure is this epic collapse attributable to managing versus the more obvious terrible play by on-field actors? Honestly, Tito's not the problem. He managed basically as expected within the constraints of a team playing terribly. He understands the long-game and the marathon, and that's exactly what got the 2007 Red Sox the title.

Edited by zenter, 29 September 2011 - 12:13 AM.


#352 Jack Sox

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:13 AM

Does anyone think Theo - and not Tito - will be let go? If one had to go, I'd probably lean this way. With Renteria, Lugo, Matsuzaka, Lackey, and now Crawford, the majority of his big time free agent signings have been busts - or at least panned out poorly.

It's strange because I've never felt this way before but I just don't believe he's anything special as a GM anymore, especially within the free agent market.

I doubt he goes, but it might be time to surround him with some fresh new minds.

#353 Mystic Merlin


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:19 AM

Does anyone think Theo - and not Tito - will be let go? If one had to go, I'd probably lean this way. With Renteria, Lugo, Matsuzaka, Lackey, and now Crawford, the majority of his big time free agent signings have been busts - or at least panned out poorly.

It's strange because I've never felt this way before but I just don't believe he's anything special as a GM anymore, especially within the free agent market.

I doubt he goes, but it might be time to surround him with some fresh new minds.


Of course, his bad FA track record is pretty well balanced by, well, everything else. Where do you think he got the core of this team?

#354 JimBoSox9


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:22 AM

This was far from Tito's finest hour, but between a 7+ ERA from the starters to untimely meltdowns from Bard and Paps, it's pretty tough to argue anyone could have done better. The talent on this team seems a mile wide and a foot deep. It's hard for a GM to adequately plan for the worst-case scenario, but the ability of the pitching staff to withstand a few injuries needs to be addressed.

The most interesting subplot of the offseason will be Lackey's elbow. I pray he gets surgery and they can write him off for 2012 totally.

#355 Jack Sox

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:31 AM

Of course, his bad FA track record is pretty well balanced by, well, everything else. Where do you think he got the core of this team?


I'm well aware of where the core of this team came from, and that's all fine and well. Does he deserve sole credit for player development? Hazen probably deserves more. I don't know, maybe the ops team has had too much brain drain with the loss of Byrnes, Hoyer, and McLeod. What I do know is there are several organizational elements that are out of sync and that Theo is seemingly at the top of chain of command.

I wouldn't be sad if he weren't the GM next season.

#356 jdubbya

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:31 AM

As for 2012, I could see them finishing 3rd again or even 4th--in the AL East. Can't assume they won't have injuries in the rotation which is an annual thing, Youks not missing 20-30 games, and we all know we have two of the most overpaid players that will limit their ability to upgrade. Their 2nd best hitter is a free agent, their best reliever and closer is a free agent, and they might need to get a RF plus 2 more starters. 95 wins is not a longshot but I think the downside risk is greater than ever. Meanwhile, Tampa and Toronto could be better than this year. The baseline is NOT this team in early June.


I agree with all of this. There are multiple players on the team with injury 'red marks' on their charts. Those things typically don't clear up with age and the roster is aging. The Crawford/Lackey contracts will prevent them from re-signing one of the key free agents and another re-working of the bullpen/bench is hit or miss every year. This year it was a miss, minus Aceves.

I'm also sensing the first real backlash from 'Red Sox Nation' since 2004. There's some pissed off fans, and Idiot Nation will be blowing up the talk radio phone lines. Will that force management into panic-mode? Can they panic worse than the past 2 major free agent signings?

#357 Mystic Merlin


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:34 AM

I'm well aware of where the core of this team came from, and that's all fine and well. Does he deserve sole credit for player development? Hazen probably deserves more. I don't know, maybe the ops team has had too much brain drain with the loss of Byrnes, Hoyer, and McLeod. What I do know is there are several organizational elements that are out of sync and that Theo is seemingly at the top of chain of command.

I wouldn't be sad if he weren't the GM next season.


Yes, failures certainly need to fall at his feet, especially if he gets to bask in the afterglow of successes. That's accountability.

But cutting the head off the regime is a lot easier than finding a new one. That's more my concern.

#358 geoduck no quahog

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:36 AM

...The talent on this team seems a mile wide and a foot deep.


Perfect quote.

Position players slump and surge, but this year's team lacked the balance provided by young or goofy players and depth (by trade or call-up) needed to survive the quirks of the game.

{edit: What did Schilling see that so many missed? Whatever it was, it remains "inside" the game...or he was just mouth spouting}

Edited by geoduck no quahog, 29 September 2011 - 06:39 AM.


#359 radsoxfan

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:38 AM

For all the talk about this now being an interesting offseason, I'm not sure there are a ton of things to do. The Ortiz and Paplebon situations have to be resolved of course. But otherwise, it seems like the Sox are pretty much married to this group of players. What positions can really be upgraded?

RF: Drew is probably gone. I had assumed it would be some combination of Reddick, Kalish, Macdonald, low-priced aquisition. Maybe now that's wrong, but I doubt it. With Ellsbury in line for a deal soon, I dont think they want to pay big money to another outfield FA.

SS: Scutaro probably gets his option picked up after his finish. Iglesias isn't ready and Lowrie can't be counted on to be healthy or not suck. I would be shocked to see us involved in the Reyes thing.

LF, CF, 3B, 2B, 1B, C: All pretty much set (I expect a Salty/Lavarnway catcher platoon). I guess maybe if Ortiz doesn;t come back, Youk may DH some and we are potentially in the 3B market or bridging with Lowrie and waiting for Middlebrooks.

Bullpen: Maybe tinkering, but other than maybe Papelbon, I doubt we will see major signings

Rotation: Beckett, Lester, Clay, Lackey, Wake/Weiland/Doubtront/late-season-Dice-K?/low level signing

Most of the current team is pretty much locked down for multiple years. Theo made all of his big plays last offseason. He was hoping this team was set for a nice 3-4 year run. Not sure if he will be able to backtrack from that plan even if he wants to.

Now of course trading Lackey/Crawford (and eating a boatload of money), are always options. And if that happens there will be a major shake-up. But I tend to think that isn't very likely. Those guys just make too much money for too many years. There are only so many Tony Reagins out there.

I suppose the big shakeup could be at the GM/managerial level. Even with all the recent bad signings, I hope Theo isn't going anywhere. Tito certainly made plenty of confuing moves down the stretch, but I also don't expect to find someone better than him. I think Valentine would drive me crazy.

Edit: Curt Young and Bogar can take a hike as far as I'm concerned. I know people mentioned the medical/training staff, but unless there are a lot more issues behind the scenes than have been made public, I think that's just grasping at straws.

Edited by radsoxfan, 29 September 2011 - 06:48 AM.


#360 Super Nomario

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:49 AM

Without a single change, this team could win 95 games next year. Even accounting for Youk's injury, missing Buchholz, Matsuzaka, Hill, Jenks and Wheeler, they played well under what can reasonably be expected. If they play up to their pythag during September, they're in the playoffs right now. They played like shit in September, but this is a better than 90 team as it's presently constructed.

I'm not advocating sitting on their hands, but claiming they have a lot of work to do to to get back to 95 wins is ignoring what this team was when healthy, for the vast majority of the season.

How much of that Pythag was propped up by the two 18-run games, and how much predictive value does a game like that have? I'm guessing it's distorting it by a couple games, and this is more like a 91- / 92- win team once that's factored in.

The Rays are going to get better, too. This wasn't supposed to be their year; they were dicking around with Sam Fuld for two / three months. If Sox basically stand pat and just hope folks get healthy / improve (and the guys who had monster years don't regress), there are going to be a lot of long faces come next September / October, too.

#361 PedroKsBambino


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:01 AM

Yes, failures certainly need to fall at his feet, especially if he gets to bask in the afterglow of successes. That's accountability.

But cutting the head off the regime is a lot easier than finding a new one. That's more my concern.


A question to ponder is this: should we be concerned about the ability of the Sox to attract and retain top lieutenants for Theo? I have a level of concern that one issue is they have not been able to get top-tier guys who join the org, either in scouting or baseball ops roles.

It's probably fair to say that part of this is an organizational desire to 'grow their own' and instill a certain approach. They've certainly been very good at doing this, and there's a case that the number of guys who other orgs have taken speaks to this being a good approach.

However, whether it be overall depth of talent in FA/scouting or just having enough different perspectives and respected opinions in the room, it is a concern I've had for a while now and seems relevant to considering what comes next here.

#362 Worst Trade Evah


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:40 AM

Even with a horrendous start and the worst September any team ever had, with the loss of Matsuzaka, Buchholz, Youkilis and injuries to many others, this team still won 90 games.

I want pretty much everyone back, especially Theo and Tito. If Bogar, Curt Young, and some members of the medical/training staffs go, I don't care. I'd be fine with a do-over by essentially the same group.

I would just like Crawford and Lackey to leave their suck behind.

The issue of a brain-drain around Theo's staff is an interesting problem, and I agree those kinds of losses can't be sustained forever. I just don't see any way for us to approach that kind of a problem. Maybe they aren't as cutting edge any more as they think they are.

#363 dcmissle


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:51 AM

Kurkjian on M & M this morning, in response to a question about "major changes at the top", paraphrasing --

"I said no and I still am inclined against it. But I spoke with Theo after the game last night, and the look of hurt in his eyes was indescribable. He (Theo) said, 'We have to examine every aspect of this organization from every angle.'" So nothing that happens up there would surprise me now.

Edited by dcmissle, 29 September 2011 - 07:52 AM.


#364 Otis Foster


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:56 AM

The issue of a brain-drain around Theo's staff is an interesting problem, and I agree those kinds of losses can't be sustained forever. I just don't see any way for us to approach that kind of a problem. Maybe they aren't as cutting edge any more as they think they are.


That's an angle I hadn't considered. Were Cherington et al. critical to evaluating major league talent? What were their particular skill sets?

#365 drtooth


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:57 AM

My biggest fear is the possibility of Theo leaving or being shown the door and Lucchino taking over the baseball ops (either himself or by hiring a puppet GM). I feel that we could see a large shift in how things are done if Lucchino is given that kind of control. We are all aware that Larry and Theo have not always seen eye to eye and Lucchino has a big enough ego to want to be the man out front. Tito should be given the ability to decide if wants to walk away instead of just being let go, though I have a feeling Larry would want someone who is "his guy". This could turn out very badly for this franchise in more ways than one.

Edited by drtooth, 29 September 2011 - 08:03 AM.


#366 OttoC


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:15 AM

Has anyone considered that Francona might ask the Red Sox not to extend his contract because he is tired of the local media and Red Sox Nation?

#367 smastroyin


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:45 AM

It is probably worth reflecting on how they came to the point that they were able to have this collapse.

What I'm trying to say is that sure everyone is pissed, and no, it's not acceptable to have this kind of thing happen, and the injuries while difficult do not explain it away.

But this was a team that was on pace for 96 wins until the collapse. It's not like they had a 70 win season. There is a lot more right than wrong. The scorched earth approach with the roster and the front office is something that Peter Angelos or Jerry Jones would do in a hissy fit, and it's not really appropriate to the team. Even if you say "you are what you are" they won 90 games.

#368 yecul


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:58 AM

Has anyone considered that Francona might ask the Red Sox not to extend his contract because he is tired of the local media and Red Sox Nation?


Francona is not a pussy. Lackey would pull something like this, not Francona.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

#369 Paul M


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:00 PM

I guess, Steve, is it fair to ask if this collapse could have been prevented? They knew there was a need for a 3rd/4th starter because Buchholz was not coming back and Bedard was the choice. Most figured an extra win or two over his replacement would be enough so I guess that's an OK move though somewhat risky given he can't stay healthy. Then they got Aviles to protect themsellves at 3B/SS and he was probably as good anything they had though I might be the one person out there that thinks Drew Sutton helps this team too and he was DFA strangely. In short, it was the existing guys not projected to be so damn awful that hurt us. Some stayed awful most of the year like Crawford and Lackey others came up short like Lester and Beckett and of course Bard. The extra 3-4 wins they should have gotten that they missed were internal failures but they were hamstrung all year by some poor moves in the last two years and I think it's borderline adequate how they made moves in-season.

#370 Shelterdog


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:03 PM

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really think that Francona's time is up. He is passive to a fault. You do not shell out the massive payroll that Henry pays his team and then let it all go to pot while quietly saying "it's a marathon, not a sprint". Francona has had an amazing run. It's time to move on. I don't want passive on my team.

Theo ought to be made to twist in the wind quite a bit as well and his baseball ops staff needs to be reworked.


I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I like beer, pizza, and blowjobs.

#371 JimBoSox9


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:11 PM

RF: Drew is probably gone. I had assumed it would be some combination of Reddick, Kalish, Macdonald, low-priced aquisition. Maybe now that's wrong, but I doubt it. With Ellsbury in line for a deal soon, I dont think they want to pay big money to another outfield FA.

SS: Scutaro probably gets his option picked up after his finish. Iglesias isn't ready and Lowrie can't be counted on to be healthy or not suck. I would be shocked to see us involved in the Reyes thing.

LF, CF, 3B, 2B, 1B, C: All pretty much set (I expect a Salty/Lavarnway catcher platoon). I guess maybe if Ortiz doesn;t come back, Youk may DH some and we are potentially in the 3B market or bridging with Lowrie and waiting for Middlebrooks.

Bullpen: Maybe tinkering, but other than maybe Papelbon, I doubt we will see major signings

Rotation: Beckett, Lester, Clay, Lackey, Wake/Weiland/Doubtront/late-season-Dice-K?/low level signing



The bolded is unacceptable. Completely and totally un-fucking-acceptable. Clay's back is a huge question mark. Beckett hasn't gotten to 30 starts in consecutive years since 2007. Lackey just submitted the worst starting pitcher season in Red Sox history. Wake is only good for 75 pitches anymore. The AAA brigade is bleak. Dice-K is a total unknown.

If a team wants to expect to make the playoffs, they need a couple elite or near-elite pitchers (which they have), and starting pitching depth that goes 7-deep with replacement-level talent. The 2011 depth went 3 deep. THREE. There were only three starting pitchers in the whole fucking organization capable of replacement-level performance. That is insane.

I don't care what the long-term contract commitments currently are. I don't care if they have Tony Conigliaro locked up through 2017 at $15 million per. They need to get one, maybe two pitchers who can slot in between Clay and Lackey in the ordered list you present above. Maybe Garza - I don't know yet. Ideally Lacky goes for TJ surgery now, because it would be easier to operate on the assumption that both he and Dice-K are non-contributers for 2012. Rotation depth is issue 1, 2, and 3 on the problem board this offseason.


Edit: Changed 2001 to 2007 for Beckett.

Edited by JimBoSox9, 29 September 2011 - 02:29 PM.


#372 ookami7m

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:31 PM

As for 2012, I could see them finishing 3rd again or even 4th--in the AL East. Can't assume they won't have injuries in the rotation which is an annual thing, Youks not missing 20-30 games, and we all know we have two of the most overpaid players that will limit their ability to upgrade. Their 2nd best hitter is a free agent, their best reliever and closer is a free agent, and they might need to get a RF plus 2 more starters. 95 wins is not a longshot but I think the downside risk is greater than ever. Meanwhile, Tampa and Toronto could be better than this year. The baseline is NOT this team in early June.



The bolded is unacceptable. Completely and totally un-fucking-acceptable. Clay's back is a huge question mark. Beckett hasn't gotten to 30 starts in consecutive years since 2011. Lackey just submitted the worst starting pitcher season in Red Sox history. Wake is only good for 75 pitches anymore. The AAA brigade is bleak. Dice-K is a total unknown.

If a team wants to expect to make the playoffs, they need a couple elite or near-elite pitchers (which they have), and starting pitching depth that goes 7-deep with replacement-level talent. The 2011 depth went 3 deep. THREE. There were only three starting pitchers in the whole fucking organization capable of replacement-level performance. That is insane.

I don't care what the long-term contract commitments currently are. I don't care if they have Tony Conigliaro locked up through 2017 at $15 million per. They need to get one, maybe two pitchers who can slot in between Clay and Lackey in the ordered list you present above. Maybe Garza - I don't know yet. Ideally Lacky goes for TJ surgery now, because it would be easier to operate on the assumption that both he and Dice-K are non-contributers for 2012. Rotation depth is issue 1, 2, and 3 on the problem board this offseason.


So here's the thing (and bold is mine): There's plenty of conversation in other places about this - and without turning this into a Lackey hate thread - our SPs are getting old. Obviously the Rays are an extreme outlier in the other direction but our staff is as follow:

Lester - 27
Beckett - 31
Lackey - 32 (are we sure he's not from Dominican and actually 4 years older?)
Wakefield - 45
Buchholz - 26 - back issue
Matsuzaka - 30 -TJ'd out until end of next year
Bedard - 32 -SSS due to short part of the year this year
Miller - 26
Weiland 24

that's roughly ordered by number of starts. Lackey and Wake look cooked. Buchholz has huge question marks going into next year, DiceK is empty until the end of the year.
That leaves us with Lester, Beckett (please not even year Beckett), and what exactly? We haven't had the advantage of early draft positions or been blessed with a quality SP developing through the last 4 drafts to the majors. Without some trade like the one that brought Beckett - where are we going to get that type of young stud?

#373 Shelterdog


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:35 PM

The bolded is unacceptable. Completely and totally un-fucking-acceptable. Clay's back is a huge question mark. Beckett hasn't gotten to 30 starts in consecutive years since 2011. Lackey just submitted the worst starting pitcher season in Red Sox history. Wake is only good for 75 pitches anymore. The AAA brigade is bleak. Dice-K is a total unknown.


You can act tough and call it unacceptable all you want, but you better learn how to fucking accept it because we're not adding two or three good starters.

#374 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:45 PM

Bogar had better be gone. It is beyond ridiculous that he is still here.

People in major league scouting need to really be critically looked at. Anyone who opined that Lackey and Crawford would be good signings needs to have been right about a ton of other important things if they are to be retained.

Minor league pitching is an area that has to be looked at closely as well. This year might have all been a combination of things beyond our control. Or maybe not. But there is not a lot of talent above A ball in this system, so that needs to be looked at.

The offseason training of the whole team and preparation in spring training needs a very close evaluation too. Why are we unprepared early and run out of gas late?

#375 smastroyin


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:48 PM

I guess, Steve, is it fair to ask if this collapse could have been prevented? They knew there was a need for a 3rd/4th starter because Buchholz was not coming back and Bedard was the choice. Most figured an extra win or two over his replacement would be enough so I guess that's an OK move though somewhat risky given he can't stay healthy. Then they got Aviles to protect themsellves at 3B/SS and he was probably as good anything they had though I might be the one person out there that thinks Drew Sutton helps this team too and he was DFA strangely. In short, it was the existing guys not projected to be so damn awful that hurt us. Some stayed awful most of the year like Crawford and Lackey others came up short like Lester and Beckett and of course Bard. The extra 3-4 wins they should have gotten that they missed were internal failures but they were hamstrung all year by some poor moves in the last two years and I think it's borderline adequate how they made moves in-season.



I agree they made some mistakes, there is no question. And they need to figure out how in the world to keep pitchers on the mound. but I guess what I'm saying is that the players aren't as bad as they showed in the last month. I agree that if Lester+Beckett+Bard have an ERA north of 6 all season next year then the Red Sox are in big trouble but I don't think there is a huge chance that happens. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Gonzalez are three all-stars that you start he lineup with. Youkilis when he is healthy is right there even though I am worried about his ability to play more than 120 games. I actually like Scutaro and don't think Lowrie is as useless as his down times so I think they are pretty well covered there and I know it is not a popular opinion but if they can stay away from huge team-wide swoons I really like Salty (I'm not sure if his ups and downs coming exactly at the same time as team-wide problems is a mental issue with him or coincidence but he seemed to press as much as anyone the first two and last two weeks of the season) and if you can work in Lavarnway against lefties to ease his problems there then I'm not too unhappy with that either. That leaves DH which is obviously a question, RF where Reddick slumped but delivered an OK performance overall, and the Crawford question. Pick up Ortiz and I think most projections are going to have this as a top 3 offense in the league.

On the pitching side which was really the disaster they have more questions of course. They need to figure out why Lester and Beckett tired out over the course of the season. They need to know what Buchholz's prognosis really is. After that, even if they get the 2010 Lackey and then fill the fifth spot they are looking ok in the rotation. The bullpen is always more of a crapshoot but other than the very top level of elite bullpen guys, who really is that consistent year to year?

Anywya, my point is that the idea that they need a re-boot is a bit much. Most of these guys are in their primes, it's not like they are all 33+. A large part of their fortunes lie with Crawford and Lackey which seems like a huge mistake but that's in the past and isn't really helped by firing everybody.

#376 OttoC


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:51 PM

I think there is more than Bogar involved with the bad base running. I also don't understand the seemingly myriad plays where not-a-prayer throws were made allowing other runners to move into scoring position.

#377 dcmissle


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 02:16 PM

I think there is more than Bogar involved with the bad base running. I also don't understand the seemingly myriad plays where not-a-prayer throws were made allowing other runners to move into scoring position.


There is damning evidence at this micro level, and at the macro level too --

"This is one for the ages, isn't it? What was going on with those two games, how poorly we played in September. We can't sugarcoat this, this is awful. We did it to ourselves, and put ourselves in a position for a crazy night like this to end our season. It shouldn't have been this way," said Epstein. "[A] 7-20 [record] in September, we go 9-18, we're where we want to be. [Going] 9-18 is what, winning a third of your games? The worst teams in baseball win a third of their games. There's no excuse. We did this to ourselves."




Quick translation > Short of the team charter going down, .250 baseball is unacceptable -- especially when .333 gets you in. Period.

Based on other comments attributed to Theo, I have no doubt the autopsy will be thorough. I just hope it's carried out deliberately, professionally and in the cool atmosphere of a morgue.

Pre gorilla suit, I'd have been greatly fearful that the long knives would be out internally and that this would play out in a circus atmosphere.



#378 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 29 September 2011 - 02:35 PM

You can act tough and call it unacceptable all you want, but you better learn how to fucking accept it because we're not adding two or three good starters.

Agreed. Saying something is unacceptable is kind of pointless unless you can propose a solution. I mean, it's unacceptable that I will never sleep with Zooey Deschanel, too.

#379 xpisblack

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:40 AM

How did they under perform down the stretch? Lackey has sucked all year. Wakefield has broken down at the end of every year since 2006. Weiland, Doubront, Miller, etc, etc, etc simply arn't very good.

Beckett had 2 bad outings in his last 4, but not incredibly awful.

Well, one place to start is to ask why the backup pitchers-- who, based on past and present season-arcs, are needed in key games every year-- are not very good. The point made earlier about this rotation being too stacked to attract good pitchers was fair and well received, but settling for Weiland and Miller as feasible options to replace even the #4 and #5 starters in case of dire need-- which, again, the team should now know to expect, whatever the reason-- seems like a terrible decision, and seemed so at the time. But of course the optimists looked at Lester, Beckett, and Buchholz as being able to last the whole year, and then hoped Lackey would rebound from his career-worst year instead of doubling down on his own personal horrorfest, and saw Matsuzaka as a reasonable shot to pitch his usual or maybe better if he stayed healthy, with Wake as a possible replacement for one of them.

My point here is that this team apparently needs to expect the potential 7th, 8th, and maybe 9th pitchers as givens for a good chunk of the season, be it due to bad luck or whatever else; Weiland and Miller are not reliably good in any way, and so their awfulness could have been expected, though the time granted to each was excessive. With the number of injuries we fans now have to expect-- not always this many, but we should have learnt to expect at least an injury or two to key pitchers-- that means that bullpen generally needs to be deeper than predicted, as well. Which means the Sox need some genuinely MLB-ready pitchers in Pawtucket every year, or more-injury-resistant pitchers (which is debatably knowable in the best of circumstances). In pitching injuries, the 2011 Red Sox had 9 pitchers with 5 or more starts, out of 27 total pitchers (including Darnell McDonald's single inning and other spotty contributors); the 2010 Red Sox had 6 with 5 or more starts, and 25 pitchers total; the 2009 team had 9 out of 27; the 2008 team, 8 out of 23; 2007, 7 out of 20; and 2006, 10 out of 28. And I understand that accruing that sort of pitching depth as an afterthought is nigh impossible, but this year, the team barely managed to assemble pitching theatre, much less pitching talent.

Meanwhile, those of you talking about character and passion and whatever whilst either lionising or denouncing reality can go sit on the payroll spike and spin. As far as I can tell, that's all just code for "I didn't like something about certain players," and about as stable as a queef in gale-force winds. Just stop it. We get it; you're passionate about this game. That's fantastic, and I laud your devotion. But don't check your brain at the gates. Culture has nothing to do with it: maybe you're trying to suggest that the Sox have somehow developed a team mindset that presumes winning as its God-given right, which is about as foetid as llama-shit can possibly be. And any perceivable beneficial urgency exists only in your mind, and is generally harmful to an actual team-- red-assing is not aspirational, it's a detriment. You say they lack confidence, but that's pure pop-speculation nonsense: for all you know, they have Casey-level confidence (Casey as in Thayer, not as in Sean, although as I think of it, either would do) and that's making them swing so badly.

Trading Lester would probably bring a lot of value, sure. But paper value is useless if it's the wrong kind of value-- if the Sox can manage to trade Lester (and possibly a low-level player or two) into a middle-echelon starter, an average backup 2B/1B, a streaky outfielder, and a too-young-to-tell reliever, then does that really count as good value? If they can manage a 3-team swing and get, for the sake of discussion, Zumaya, Wainwright, and Tyler Greene, would that count as "good value," given that Zoomy and Wainwright are coming off surgery and Greene would have to learn at least one new position? On paper, the Sox would gain almost $1millionUSD in that trade, but the reality is far bleaker. Now, if they could get Y. Molina and post-surgery wildcard Wainwright for Lester, I'd start to sit up a little straighter, but likely still ultimately dislike the deal. After a year plagued by poor pitching, I don't understand the logic of shopping around one of the few effective pitchers available-- as someone else noted, any such trade would come from a place of weakness, and that rarely ends well.

One of the things I appreciate about this team is that they are always willing to listen to the right trade proposal. No one is safe, because no one is irreplaceable. They'd trade Pedroia in a heartbeat if the right deal arose. But that doesn't mean they respect anyone else's valuations, either. They know how much they value each player, and are willing to listen to any swop that matches their numbers.

But fundamentally, this team appeared knackered down the end. They didn't make what could have been routine plays, the pitchers lost their stuff, the fielders broke badly and came up short... They looked exhausted and played poorly. But, some say, if they come back next year hungry for a title, then this team could win 113 games! ... Or it could win 82. No one fucking knows, but their tongue-assed exhaustion down the stretch does raise at least the spectre of some organisational lackaday, and I still believe it points at least near the conditioning and medical staff. The key here is that this same team, if kept healthy, have a significantly higher potential than 2011 realised; now the bosses need to learn how to keep them on the field.

As it shook out, this was a 90-win team that sometimes looked like a 97-win team and sometimes like a 75-win team, but it got labelled as a potential 100-win one before a single game was played. On paper, it should have won more than 90, but so it goes and all that. I've endured years when I'd have killed-- literally killed-- for a 90-win team; 2011 was not one of them.

If I've learned one thing from this board it's that this is completely wrong. Simply throw out his bad numbers. The remainder is his true talent.

They should dump the extra pitcher to allow them to expand the bench. Do a pseudo 2003 thing. Bring in a few guys to mix in and hope one sticks.

This was bloody beautiful in context.

#380 Marbleheader


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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:50 PM

So, should I change the title to which heads won't roll? Amazing how much has changed in such a short time. I'll add that poll too.

#381 OttoC


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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:16 PM

I have no idea how much autonomy Francona had in setting lineups, using pitchers, giving rest but if someone had decided to give the regulars a couple of games off, maybe tied in with a travel day, and played the September call-ups and scrubs that might have allowed the regulars to regroup.

#382 P'tucket, rhymes with...


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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:19 PM

I have no idea how much autonomy Francona had in setting lineups, using pitchers, giving rest but if someone had decided to give the regulars a couple of games off, maybe tied in with a travel day, and played the September call-ups and scrubs that might have allowed the regulars to regroup.


Or, as it turns out, to go on a bender.

Tito was pretty good about trying to keep everyone ready for the stretch run--perhaps the one thing I'll be happy to see go with his departure is the endless carping about his "Sunday lineups."

#383 The Gray Eagle


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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:37 PM

So the tally so far is something like this:

Out:
Theo
Francona
Shipley
Ron Johnson
Curt Young
Gill
Trainers
Papelbon
Drew
Heidi Watney

Still on the bubble:
Ortiz
Varitek
Wakefield
Bedard

Still Here:
Lucchino
Bogar
Allard Baird
Lackey
Crawford


Possibly incoming:
Bobby Valentine
Omar Minaya

I have to say I am not pleased with the direction things are moving.

Edited by The Gray Eagle, 17 November 2011 - 04:48 PM.


#384 jacklamabe65


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Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:05 PM

Which heads will roll?

After today's events - it's obvious. The members of SoSH top the list.

#385 Marbleheader


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Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:06 PM

It's interesting reading through this again. I thought there would be changes, but...yeah.

No one's head is going to roll, because no one in the organization is going to over-react Steinbrenner-style to some bad luck and injuries.



The Red Sox have not been prone to knee jerk reactions for the most part (Doug Mirabelli aside), so I don't think any major pieces of the front office or coaching staff are going anywhere. I'd love to see Bogar replaced, though they seem to have blinders on with him.

.....



Probably because John Henry is smart enough to realize you don't make changes for changes sake. Without evidence to the contrary, a string of bad luck on the injury front is all one can go by.

The only evidence we have is that some of the older players on the team have had to deal with nagging injury issues, but nothing that is atypical of older players on other teams. The other evidence is that some players have been on the DL longer than expected, or had had more complicated injuries than originally thought. But there has yet to be a case where a player was definitively brought back "too early".

I do agree that the team will take time to assess the issues before doing anything. And, given that, I wouldn't expect that a bunch of heads will roll.

Again, Theo and Tito are 100% safe right now.



Sometimes nobody is to blame. Christ.

This is like when somebody dies and people look for some bad habit to blame it on. "Oh he smoked that's why he got hit by that bus." Blaming the doctors fits this analogy as well.

Nobody gets axed, but some of them, like Theo, are no longer bullet proof.

.....



#386 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:21 AM

Which heads will roll?

After today's events - it's obvious. The members of SoSH top the list.

Certainly our eyes are rolling, but I think technically what our heads are doing would be more of a yaw.

It is kind of astounding just how much worse this has all been than most of us imagined. Who would have guessed, on that bleak Thursday morning, that far from finally being over, the team's collapse was just entering its second and more damaging phase?

#387 lexrageorge

  • 2,336 posts

Posted 18 November 2011 - 01:23 PM

So the tally so far is something like this:

Out:
Theo
Francona
Shipley
Ron Johnson
Curt Young
Gill
Trainers
Papelbon
Drew
Heidi Watney

Still on the bubble:
Ortiz
Varitek
Wakefield
Bedard

Still Here:
Lucchino
Bogar
Allard Baird
Lackey
Crawford


Possibly incoming:
Bobby Valentine
Omar Minaya

I have to say I am not pleased with the direction things are moving.


Obviously, on September 19th, when the Sox were still very much in playoff contention, I certainly didn't expect quite the level of wholesale changes so far. But, let's look at this more unemotionally:

Theo/Tito: Been discussed ad infinitum here. It's a shame, but it's been done, and been done for a while. Time to move on (seriously).
Shipley/Johnson/Gill/Young/Training staff: Seems like house cleaning where some house cleaning needed to happen. Bit players that don't play baseball, so these guys don't worry me so much.
Papelbon: Probably the 2nd biggest lost (see below for #1), but paying >$15M/annum for the next 4 years for a guy who pitches 60 innings may have seemed like a hollow victory.
Drew: Was retiring no matter what. And may have been a bigger pain in the ass than what we thought.
Heidi: Obviously, the biggest lost so far.

Still here:
Lucchino: Anyone who thought he was going anywhere was sadly deluded. He's the boss, and the team won 2 titles with his being the boss.
Bogar/Baird: Yawn.
Lackey: Technically, he won't be "here" in 2012.
Crawford: 2011 was a "black swan" style outlier in terms of performance. Let's give this one another year, at least.
And you forgot: A lot of good players from the 2011 team; last I checked they had a few.

Possibly incoming:
You fogot to add: Players yet to be acquired via trades and free agency, stuff which really doesn't pick up until next month anyway.

Let's not jump off the bridge yet.

#388 geoduck no quahog

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:17 PM

Wow. Whoever put thsis here today...brilliant. Kudos to your Quixote.




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