73 replies to this topic

[hunter05]

[BGrif21125]

Above all else, we're all upset that a big fight ended in a controversial manner. It sucks.

And while I have no real desire to defend Floyd Mayweather, I can't put him any higher than 3rd on the list of people who contributed to that controversial and disappointing ending.

Ortiz started this entire thing with a blantantly dirty headbutt, and then he broke the most basic rule of the sport, which is to protect yourself at all times.

Cortez failed miserably at his job, which at its most basic level is to be in control and in position to protect both fighters.

The reason the venom in this thread is directed at Floyd is because he's an asshole who continually goes out of his way to piss people off, and as a result, he's an easy target for criticism. I feel no sympathy for him, he brings it on himself.

But if Floyd takes most of the blame for tonight, it will be because he's a hated guy to begin with. It won't be because of those 2 specific punches, becuase they were not the biggest transgression that contributed to the shitty ending.

Edited by BGrif21125, 18 September 2011 - 12:44 AM.

[kenneycb]

Above all else, we're all upset that a big fight ended in a controversial manner. It sucks.

And while I have no real desire to defend Floyd Mayweather, I can't put him any higher than 3rd on the list of people who contributed to that controversial and disappointing ending.

Ortiz started this entire thing with a blantantly dirty headbutt, and then he broke the most basic rule of the sport, which is to protect yourself at all times.

Cortez failed miserably at his job, which at its most basic level is to be in control and in position to protect both fighters.

The reason the venom in this thread is directed at Floyd is because he's an asshole who continually goes out of his way to piss people off, and as a result, he's an easy target for criticism. I feel no sympathy for him, he brings it on himself.

But if Floyd takes most of the blame for tonight, it will be because he's a hated guy to begin with. It won't be because of those 2 specific punches, becuase they were not the biggest transgression that contributed to the shitty ending.

Thank you for bringing some sense into this thread.

[Marciano490]

Ortiz is the biggest punk of the night. You lose a fight and a title, and you should be pissed, not shrugging your shoulders and laughing on your stool. The guy looked happy to be done for the night, and it's not the first tine he's acted that way after losing. He's a bigger disgrace to the sport than PBF.

[rembrat]

Thats boxing for you. Dudes get paid regardless.

Say what you will about mma but 95% of their fighters are classy as hell. That would never fly in the UFC.

[shawnrbu]

[CaptainLaddie]

Floyd would destroy manny. Period. End of story. Manny is
an athlete. Floyd is a boxer. The level in skill is massive. It's miles not inches.

The FUCK are you talking about?

Manny is an athlete who can hit like a motherfucker. Floyd is an opportunist who runs scared when confronted with a challenge.

Isn't it telling as all hell that Floyd continues to refuse to fight someone who could, you know, ACTUALLY beat him?

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

The reason the venom in this thread is directed at Floyd is because he's an asshole who continually goes out of his way to piss people off, and as a result, he's an easy target for criticism. I feel no sympathy for him, he brings it on himself.

That's the only reason I can think of for the "controversy," because Floyd didn't do anything wrong here, not in a "legal" sense or a "sportsmanlike" sense. To me, a baseball analogy would be if a runner on first takes his lead off base, then bends over and starts tying his shoes. Would anyone say it is then "unsportsmanlike" for the pitcher to throw to first and pick the guy off? Would you say that the pitcher should wait for the runner to start paying attention again?

Of course not. Everyone would be laugh at the guy for making an inexcusable mental mistake.

That's what Ortiz did. He made an inexcusable mental mistake and Mayweather took advantage of it. That's all.

Also, watching the replay a few times, I have to say I'm surprised that Ortiz made no effort to get up. He got hit with a couple of hard punches, but I've seen fighters get up, or at least try to get up, from worse. As I mentioned, Floyd floored Gatti under the exact same conditions but Gatti got back up and fought on. I think that the Ortiz who quit against Marcos Maidana was the Ortiz you saw last night. He was looking for a way out of the fight.

[TheGodfather]

Larry Merchant - 1

Floyd Mayweather - 0

[BroodsSexton]

before it gets taken down --

Did Larry Merchant just tell Mayweather he would kick his ass? What did he say there at the end? Couldn't make it out.

Edited by BroodsSexton, 18 September 2011 - 08:53 AM.

[Stu Nahan]

Did Larry Merchant just tell Mayweather he would kick his ass? What did he say there at the end? Couldn't make it out.

He said he wished he was fifty years younger because he would kick Floyd's ass if he was.

[kenneycb]

The FUCK are you talking about?

Manny is an athlete who can hit like a motherfucker. Floyd is an opportunist who runs scared when confronted with a challenge.

Isn't it telling as all hell that Floyd continues to refuse to fight someone who could, you know, ACTUALLY beat him?

Oh fuck. When was the last time Pacquiao fought somebody not over the hill outside of Marquez? Yes, Floyd's an asshole but let's not act like Pacquiao is taking on all comers. Both are fucking cowards and Floyd gets the bad rap because he's an asshole and polarizing and doesn't have tablet commercials.

[BGrif21125]

Oh fuck. When was the last time Pacquiao fought somebody not over the hill outside of Marquez? Yes, Floyd's an asshole but let's not act like Pacquiao is taking on all comers. Both are fucking cowards and Floyd gets the bad rap because he's an asshole and polarizing and doesn't have tablet commercials.

I think we have to separate Pacquiao's full career from the last couple years.

At the end of the day, Pacquiao will have 8 fights against Barrera, Morales, and Marquez, who are all going to the HOF on the first ballot. 8 fights against 3 champions of that caliber might be unprecedented in the sport. Mayweather's list of opponents can't match Pacquiao's.

Now, in recent years, Pacquiao has displayed some of the same qualities that drive people nuts about Floyd. Pacquiao is a company man who has let Arum tell him who to fight and when, even if its a slap in the face to the fans. The Margarito fight was an utter disgrace and the decision to fight Mosley wasn't much better. Pacquiao deserves criticism for that, and those decisions make me think less of him, but it doesn't undo the rest of his resume.

[kenneycb]

I think we have to separate Pacquiao's full career from the last couple years.

At the end of the day, Pacquiao will have 8 fights against Barrera, Morales, and Marquez, who are all going to the HOF on the first ballot. 8 fights against 3 champions of that caliber might be unprecedented in the sport. Mayweather's list of opponents can't match Pacquiao's.

Now, in recent years, Pacquiao has displayed some of the same qualities that drive people nuts about Floyd. Pacquiao is a company man who has let Arum tell him who to fight and when, even if its a slap in the face to the fans. The Margarito fight was an utter disgrace and the decision to fight Mosley wasn't much better. Pacquiao deserves criticism for that, and those decisions make me think less of him, but it doesn't undo the rest of his resume.

I was focusing more on the recent years so, yes, we are more or less in agreement.

[TheGodfather]

J.A. Adande: "The sad part is, Floyd would sign off on the Merchant fight before he'd fight Manny."

[BroodsSexton]

He said he wished he was fifty years younger because he would kick Floyd's ass if he was.

Makes sense. If Merchant were fifty years younger, Mayweather would be a scrap of DNA (if that).

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Now, in recent years, Pacquiao has displayed some of the same qualities that drive people nuts about Floyd. Pacquiao is a company man who has let Arum tell him who to fight and when, even if its a slap in the face to the fans. The Margarito fight was an utter disgrace and the decision to fight Mosley wasn't much better. Pacquiao deserves criticism for that, and those decisions make me think less of him, but it doesn't undo the rest of his resume.

It's not a coincidence that Manny's period of "hand picking" opponents coincides with his signing with Arum. It also not coincidentally coincides with his rise through the weigh classes.

From a fan's perspective, Manny deserves the criticism. But looking at it from Manny's perspective, under Arum he has become much, much richer and more famous and more powerful within the world of boxing than he ever was before. And he was already pretty rich and famous. So it's pretty understandable why he's taken the route he has.

It also shows that Arum may or may not be the world's finest human being, but he's a promotional genius.

Edited by Gene Conleys Plane Ticket, 18 September 2011 - 05:07 PM.

[BoredViewer]

Ortiz is the biggest punk of the night. You lose a fight and a title, and you should be pissed, not shrugging your shoulders and laughing on your stool. The guy looked happy to be done for the night, and it's not the first tine he's acted that way after losing. He's a bigger disgrace to the sport than PBF.

No kidding. Ortiz seemed to be about the least upset person in the whole building. Very strange.

[BGrif21125]

A few additional thoughts:

- That was a really solid undercard. All 3 fights were competitive and hard-fought. All 3 underdogs came to win and put up legit challenges. Considering how awful PPV undercards have been in recent years, that was a nice development. It should be the standard, of course.

- The Alvarez-Gomez stoppage was very premature. I'm all for protecting the fighters, but some refs go way too far. Yes, Gomez was hurt and wobbled, but it's a fight, that happens. You stop a fight when a guy is hurt to the point where he can't protect himself, you don't stop a fight because a guy is hurt and covering up to weather the storm. I think Gomez's postfight complaints were on point. That stoppage ruined what could have been an interesting fight down the stretch.

- Alvarez is fun to watch, but he has a long way to go if he wants to be a real top fighter, as opposed to just being an attraction. If he gets matched up with someone who can really box (say, Erislandy Lara), he'll get taken to school. But against slow stationary guys, he can make entertaining TV fights. After that performance Saturday night, I don't think Golden Boy will be matching him against a dangerous opponent anytime soon.

- He's a shell of his former self and the belt he won was completely bogus, but it was good to see Morales win. One of my all-time favorite fighters. Unlike the Alvarez fight, the stoppage in this fight was on time. No reason to let a young fighter like Cano take an unnecessary beating. I liked how Steward kept mispronouncing Cano as "Canoe".

- I would love to hear the Nevada state commission explain their thought process in selecting Cortez to ref the main event, considering they have several experienced referees who are far more competent and far less senile than Cortez. Of course, that will never happen, since there's zero accountability in boxing and no expectation of logic.

- It's pretty pathetic that there have been 3 major mainstream fights this year, and after each one, all the talk has been about something negative. After Pacquiao-Mosley, all the talk was about how Mosley mailed it in, and how Pacquiao should have never agreed to fight him in the first place. After Klitschko-Haye, all the talk was about Haye's ridiculous toe injury excuse for a no-show performance. Now there's this controversy. It sucks. These last 2 years have been really really bad for the sport, and I've lost my energy to defend boxing, but at the same time I know I'll never be able to stop watching.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

- It's pretty pathetic that there have been 3 major mainstream fights this year, and after each one, all the talk has been about something negative. After Pacquiao-Mosley, all the talk was about how Mosley mailed it in, and how Pacquiao should have never agreed to fight him in the first place. After Klitschko-Haye, all the talk was about Haye's ridiculous toe injury excuse for a no-show performance. Now there's this controversy. It sucks. These last 2 years have been really really bad for the sport, and I've lost my energy to defend boxing, but at the same time I know I'll never be able to stop watching.

Yeah, I feel the same way, not as much about the controversies but about the general lack of quality, exciting fights -- either at the PPV level or any level. Not to say there haven't been any. Of course there have been some. I'm hoping that boxing is just going through a transition to the next generation of compelling fighters. But look, I was extremely unexcited about the Mayweather-Ortiz matchup in the first place, regardless of how it ended up. That's just one example. I was psyched about the rapid rise of Sergio Martinez, but now it seems like as quickly as he skyrocketed to the top, he just as quickly ran out of opponents. The Kitschkos continue to batter anyone in their path -- and more power to them! They are not responsible for the barren landscape of the heavyweight division and they do what they're supposed to do: fight whoever comes along and beat them all convincingly. But there's no drama or excitement there. We all know the Pacquiao and Mayweather situations. De La Hoya, Mosley and Cotto are all gone (or should be).

To add insult to injury, we're treated to monumentally unsatisfying events like what happened Saturday night. I've really lost a lot of my passion for boxing over the past 18 months or so. Which sucks because I grew up watching boxing with my dad, who was a huge fan, and other than baseball it was my favorite spectator sport. Right now, I can't say that's true anymore, though I hope it will be again soon.

[kenneycb]

Yeah, I feel the same way, not as much about the controversies but about the general lack of quality, exciting fights -- either at the PPV level or any level. Not to say there haven't been any. Of course there have been some. I'm hoping that boxing is just going through a transition to the next generation of compelling fighters. But look, I was extremely unexcited about the Mayweather-Ortiz matchup in the first place, regardless of how it ended up. That's just one example. I was psyched about the rapid rise of Sergio Martinez, but now it seems like as quickly as he skyrocketed to the top, he just as quickly ran out of opponents. The Kitschkos continue to batter anyone in their path -- and more power to them! They are not responsible for the barren landscape of the heavyweight division and they do what they're supposed to do: fight whoever comes along and beat them all convincingly. But there's no drama or excitement there. We all know the Pacquiao and Mayweather situations. De La Hoya, Mosley and Cotto are all gone (or should be).

Aside from fighting each other...

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

Aside from fighting each other...

I don't believe they're supposed to fight each other and wouldn't want to see it. Only in the movies.

Anyway, Gabriel Montoya has the best assessment Ive seen about the end of the Mayweather-Ortiz fight here.

Basically, Ortiz created a bad situation. The ref Cortez made it a lot worse. What Floyd did was perfectly legal. Ortiz screwed up by fouling Floyd then, by his own admission, "spacing out." But if the ref had adequately controlled the situation in the ring, it probably would not have happened the way it did.

[CrouchingTonyHiddenPena]

It's no secret I haven't like Floyd much. After the recent 24/7 however, there was one interview near the end of the show where he truly humanized himself in a way I have never seen him before. He copped to the 'act' he performs unconditionally to "give the fans what they want". That interview combined with his unbelievable work ethic in the gym had me respecting the hell out of him for the first time ever. Then he pulled what he pulled. His performance in the interview with Larry was anything but Larry's fault, and saying Merchant should hang it up is laughable. That was one of the most classless displays by an athlete, even for Floyd, that I have ever witnessed. Floyd was out of line and there is no defense for what he said. NONE. A 40+ year HOF career in boxing journalism with universal respect from peers pretty much disproves Floyd's insane assertion that he "ain't know shit about boxing".

In the ring, I have no beef with what unfolded from a legally allowed standpoint either. It was legal, and Ortiz knows better. What I and (I think) most people are taking extreme umbrage with is the nature with which it all unfolded. Floyd supporters have to at least acknowledge that someone very generally disliked already for his polarizing pomposity and perceived perennial disrespect for anyone who differs in opinion with him, is going to be even more disliked for 'legally sucker punching' (that's as accurate as it gets) a fighter to win. It might be legal, but it certainly and undeniably has a stink of 'unsportsmanlike' to it, and no logical rationalization based on rules and known ring decorum will ever relieve that sentiment. The crowds' visceral reaction of disapproval proves this, whether or not Floyd fans want to hear it. Perception is reality, especially in a 24/7 media world with tweeted/facebooked opinions littering the internet and driving media sentiment shortly thereafter. It looked nothing other than cheap, and to many casual fans with no rooting interest or intimate knowledge of the rules, Floyd just became even more disliked overall. He will forever have the 'punk' moniker associated with him name and resume', and its moments like Saturday night that the general boxing world will point to for an explanation as to why.

In short, the question was never CAN he do what he did. The question was SHOULD he have. With his unmatched skill and complete command of the fight after winning the first 4 rounds (Ortiz was never going to win 7 of the next 8 to take the fight), the answer has been a resounding 'no' by an overwhelming public majority.

Montoya puts it nicely:

In the end, I felt Floyd denied himself the greatness of a clean victory on Saturday night. Yes, it was justified and legal but to many, it’s not a victory that can be celebrated without saying, “Yeah, but…”

To me, it’s a shame that when we get boxing’s version of the Super Bowl, there always seems to be a problem. We’re in a dogfight with the UFC and things like this get in the way. While I am sitting here absolving Floyd and crediting Ortiz and Cortez with screwing up the night, Floyd’s way of ending the fight left me with a bad taste in my mouth and feeling like many who came out and spent hard-earned money to be there: a bit cheated out of what I hoped would be a great night at the fights.

I am in complete agreement with you GCPT, and Montoya, as to laying this on Cortez as well. They should have been separated, period. In fact I think all root blame lies with Cortez alone, but the end result is still that "bad taste in [our] mouth". With the sport hurting recently, and MMA rising in ratings, the writing is on the wall, and in my opinion Floyd hurt the sport Saturday night. A sport which really can't afford to be hurt at this time. It's a damn shame too, because he is truly one of the greatest fighters of all-time.


reposted link: http://www.maxboxing...ess-self-denied

[teddykgb]

The only thing I really disagree with is that Ortiz was confused about the status of the fight. The ref could have been better, but blaming him is sort of strange because Ortiz is just apologizing absurdly at that point. Yes, technically, the ref could have created a more clean restart to the fight, but it's still on Ortiz that when a guy came at him hands up, he continued to try to apologize and possibly just waste time.

That said, you can't watch it and act like Mayweather didn't take advantage of a really weird situation. I hadn't seen the fight live, and hearing the initial reactions it sounded like Mayweather maybe hadn't exploited as much as the initial furor indicated, but when you really watch it, there really is no chance for Ortiz to go from hug (number 3) to defensive position, Mayweather jumps all over him and puts him out incredibly quickly.