933 replies to this topic

[Snodgrass'Muff]

On the flip side, he has had ridiculously talented teams. There are a plenty of managers that could have won it all with what he had to work with in the years they won. I'm not commenting on his abilities as a manager at all, but it's worth noting that his deck has been pretty stacked since day one.

Sure, he's had talent to work with. All great coaches/managers do. But do you really think we win in 2004 with Grady Little at the helm? Or "any average manager"? Seriously? We're one season removed from him working a literal miracle in keeping the Pawtucket Red Sox in playoff contention until September rolled around.

He's had a less than stellar year, but he's the greatest manager the team has ever had in any of our lifetimes and calling him "average at best" is preposterous. His decisions tonight were baffling and frustrating as hell. I'm not defending him keeping Bard in there or calling for a steal with Aviles on first. But being a good or even great manager is about more than any one (or collection of a few) games in a season. Tito gets that. Some members here do not.

What ever, I'm going to go kill shit in Deus Ex for a while. The blood of many Chinese hookers in the Hung Hua Hotel are on his hands.

[SoFloSoxFan]

Give me a break. They had a chance to pick up a game on NY tonight and Tito pissed it away.

This team has no interest whatsoever in catching the yankees. Theo has been very clear what their goal is every year: make the playoffs. That goal is being treated as reached by the team, and the decisions are being made accordingly. Tito is not going to make any extraordinary decisions that might harm a players confidence or hurt the teams chances in the playoffs.

Winning games is no longer this teams number one priority. Thats been clear for a week now, and the team is playing as such.

[ifmanis5]

April didn't concern me. What I've seen lately does.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Come on, look at how many starts have gone to lackey, wake, and miller. Look at Crawford. Sox still have the third best record in baseball, the idea that Tito should be gone is ridiculous.

[OldSaintJohn]

Sure, he's had talent to work with. All great coaches/managers do. But do you really think we win in 2004 with Grady Little at the helm? Or "any average manager"? Seriously? We're one season removed from him working a literal miracle in keeping the Pawtucket Red Sox in playoff contention until September rolled around.

Can you cite some examples of what exactly Francona did that another manager may not have back in 2004? Or are you just reaching to prove a point that might not be there?

[twibnotes]

This team has no interest whatsoever in catching the yankees. Theo has been very clear what their goal is every year: make the playoffs. That goal is being treated as reached by the team, and the decisions are being made accordingly. Tito is not going to make any extraordinary decisions that might harm a players confidence or hurt the teams chances in the playoffs.

Winning games is no longer this teams number one priority. Thats been clear for a week now, and the team is playing as such.

I think this is way oversimplified. I'm sure Tito and the front office would acknowledge that there are trade offs to be considered, but they absolutely want to win the division.

[SoxFan234]

April didn't concern me. What I've seen lately does.

I'm not worried so much as annoyed. We said the exact same thing in September '07 and look what happened.

[DanoooME]

Paps should have been warming once it was bases loaded and nobody out. Agreed. I do not understand Albers there. You bring Paps in once Bard couldn't get that 3rd out and made it 8-7. But they seem completely against a Papelbon 4 out save this year. Has he had even one? I cannot recall, but perhaps he did.

He's had two appearances of 4 outs, April 20th at Oakland, got 4 outs while giving up a run on 2 hits and got the save. The other was May 9 at home against Minnesota, got 4 outs, gave up a hit, and was credited with his first blown save. Nothing since.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

Paps should have been warming once it was bases loaded and nobody out. Agreed. I do not understand Albers there. You bring Paps in once Bard couldn't get that 3rd out and made it 8-7. But they seem completely against a Papelbon 4 out save this year. Has he had even one? I cannot recall, but perhaps he did.

Along with the insanity of pinch running Aviles and having him run into the final out, this is what I'll remember about this game. Need to find out if Pap can get more than three outs before the playoffs begin, and this was an opportunity served up on a silver platter. I don't buy that he's to fragile to even try. He's looked as strong as he ever has all year.

[patinorange]

I have to agree with the sentiment that Wakefield is low on the list of things to worry about with this team.

He should have had his win tonight. He's still better than Lackey.

They need to start winning some series. The Rays have the pitching to rip off a long winning streak and we have the pitching (with all the injuries) to rip off a long losing streak.

Someone please tell my that was a failed hit and run and not a stolen base attempt to end the game.

And if Paps can't face Bautista in that spot for one out, what the hell.

Awful gut punch for Wake, and I hope Bard comes out of this OK.

Carl Crawford is not getting better, he's getting worse.

[twibnotes]

Along with the insanity of pinch running Aviles and having him run into the final out, this is what I'll remember about this game. Need to find out if Pap can get more than three outs before the playoffs begin, and this was an opportunity served up on a silver platter. I don't buy that he's to fragile to even try. He's looked as strong as he ever has all year.

Moreover, isn't preserving Bard important?

[shawnrbu]

Can you cite some examples of what exactly Francona did that another manager may not have back in 2004? Or are you just reaching to prove a point that might not be there?

Started Lowe in 4 and 7.

Foulke in the 7th of 4.

Kept the team positive when faced with a 3-0 deficit, despite what Tim McCarver and Jon Lieber claim.

[86spike]

Wakefield has overstayed his career by two seasons.

[Reggie's Racquet]

The problem with this team is they never go for the kill. They always seem to play it safe. It's the 95 wins per season strategy and it's wrong.
They were the favorites to win it all this year. When Dice K went down they should have given up the prospects and acquired a reliable number 3/4 starter to replace him.
Theo gambled that the rest of the staff would stay healthy and that was a big mistake. They should have gone out like Texas did and paid the price for proven bullpen help.
This team, with it's money and resources should not be starting Tim Wakefield and Andrew Mller or bringing Matt Albers out of the bullpen in the middle of a pennant race.

Edited by Reggie's Racquet, 07 September 2011 - 10:04 PM.

[twibnotes]

Our next starting pitchers: Miller, Lackey, Weiland and some guy named TBD

Goddamnit, Tito, you picked a bad night to make stupid decisions.

[Fragile Freddie]

Francona: "You feel when you get it to Bard you can just stop managing, and watch him pitch". Well tonight you couldn't. But you did.

[TFisNEXT]

Red Sox pitchers put on 10 Blue Jay hitters via walk or HBP.

[Soxbrained]

Yeah, shit happens. Get over it. The Red Sox are making the playoffs. There is no "pennant race."

You seem awfully sure of that. Seems like hubris to me. Anyway, they're sending enough crap out there these days that at best, they run the risk to back into the playoffs and get swept in the first round.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

Along with the insanity of pinch running Aviles and having him run into the final out, this is what I'll remember about this game. Need to find out if Pap can get more than three outs before the playoffs begin, and this was an opportunity served up on a silver platter. I don't buy that he's to fragile to even try. He's looked as strong as he ever has all year.

He's not using Papelbon for four outs in a game that doesn't bear on the team's playoff chances. Do you really think having Papelbon in there tonight would have offered any definitive information about his ability to get more than three outs? Do you really think the results of such an outing tonight would or should have any bearing on who Tito goes to if he needs four outs at the end of Game 7 of the ALCS?

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Can you cite some examples of what exactly Francona did that another manager may not have back in 2004? Or are you just reaching to prove a point that might not be there?

Did you even watch the 2004 playoffs? His bullpen management was almost flawless. When the playoffs roll around, Tito manages differently than he does in the regular season. I'm not arguing that he's the greatest manager in the history of baseball, but calling him "average at best" is moronic.

I get it. It hip to bash him this year. So have at it. But by the logic being tossed around here, there's not such thing as a great manger or coach, since all great teams, by nature have a wealth of talented players. It's bullshit reactionary posting at it's finest.

But I have Asian hookers waiting for me to kill them in a virtual environment... so I'm gonna let the haters shit out their mouths some more and pat each other on the back for *knowing* what the peons can't see.

[SoxFan234]

Francona: "You feel when you get it to Bard you can just stop managing, and watch him pitch". Well tonight you couldn't. But you did.

How was the ball coming out of his hand tonight, asshole?

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Sure, he's had talent to work with. All great coaches/managers do. But do you really think we win in 2004 with Grady Little at the helm? Or "any average manager"? Seriously? We're one season removed from him working a literal miracle in keeping the Pawtucket Red Sox in playoff contention until September rolled around.

He's had a less than stellar year, but he's the greatest manager the team has ever had in any of our lifetimes and calling him "average at best" is preposterous. His decisions tonight were baffling and frustrating as hell. I'm not defending him keeping Bard in there or calling for a steal with Aviles on first. But being a good or even great manager is about more than any one (or collection of a few) games in a season. Tito gets that. Some members here do not.

What ever, I'm going to go kill shit in Deus Ex for a while. The blood of many Chinese hookers in the Hung Hua Hotel are on his hands.

So your argument is that because he's better than Grady Little he's great? That's like saying because I'm taller than Peter Dinklage I'm up there with Manute Bol.
And I think Dick Williams would take an exception to your greatest in any of our lifetime claim.

[deconstruction]

I think this is way oversimplified. I'm sure Tito and the front office would acknowledge that there are trade offs to be considered, but they absolutely want to win the division.

If they wanted to win the division as much as winning a playoff series, Papelbon would have replaced Bard. So, sure, they want to win--but no one can seriously argue (and no one is) that putting Matt Fucking Gas Can Albers in with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 8th was a sign that this team felt that they had to have this game.

[trekfan55]

Can you cite some examples of what exactly Francona did that another manager may not have back in 2004? Or are you just reaching to prove a point that might not be there?

Really?

Were you not watching?

He outmanaged Scioscia, Torre, and Larussa (3 managers everyone considers the best in the game). He made morethan one key decisions that contributed to the WS win. Credit has to be given to players like Dave Roberts et al, but still....

BTW, maybe the reason he left Bard too long is what happened just after he was lifted. As to why Paps was not ready and brought in, we'll never know cause I'm sure no one will ask the question.

[hunter05]

The hatred for Francona in this thread is beyond ridiculous.

[SemperFidelisSox]

And what's the deal with those stupid glasses and fleeces?

[Rudy Pemberton]

It is funny to read about how Tito sucks because he let Bard remain in the game, while not using Papelbon. Seems not all that long ago that Tito sucked because he was pulling his best reliever, Bard, for the clearly inferior Papelbon.

Why did the Sox lose this game? A lousy start; Sox struggle when starter doesn't go 6, not all that surprising. And, Bard blew up. Thankfully, that happens rarely.

[ecko72jc]

Francoma should be fired.

[Fragile Freddie]

Carl Crawford is not getting better, he's getting worse.

I've long since given up thinking a good game is going to turn him around. It's a lost season plain and simple. I hope next season brings the Crawford who used to terrorize the Red Sox, but if it's another year like this one I think Theo has to find a way, ANY WAY, to cut bait.

[103mph Screwball]

The MFY can't block us in a waiver wire deal for Thornton....

[deconstruction]

You seem awfully sure of that. Seems like hubris to me. Anyway, they're sending enough crap out there these days that at best, they run the risk to back into the playoffs and get swept in the first round.

Hubris would be claiming they're going to catch the Yankees.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

The hatred for Francona in this thread is beyond ridiculous.

Peter Dinklage is short. SHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTT!

[SoxFan234]

The MFY can't block us in a waiver wire deal for Thornton....

You're about a week late.

[TFisNEXT]

The hatred for Francona in this thread is beyond ridiculous.

Agreed. I think he should have had Paps warming there when Bard clearly wasn't right after a couple batters, but Francona is not a worry for this team in the playoffs. He is far far down the list of worries. So is Wakefield. Wakefield is the #6 starter on this team who was pushed into the rotation when DiceK got injured and has pitched a little better than replacement. That's what you expect from #6 on the depth chart. The bigger problem is Buchholz getting injured and Lackey completely shitting the bed as a #3/4 starter.

[Kilgore A. Trout]

Really?

Were you not watching?

He outmanaged Scioscia, Torre, and Larussa (3 managers everyone considers the best in the game). He made morethan one key decisions that contributed to the WS win. Credit has to be given to players like Dave Roberts et al, but still....

Well his team outplayed Scioscia's team, as a more talented team will do. Managing or outmanaging him really didn't play into it. And Torre wasn't outmanaged as much as his team freaked out and choked. And Larussa? He is even more of an overrated manager than Francona could ever aspire to be.
He didn't make key decisions in '04 as much as he managed not to make any serious mistakes.

[Reggie's Racquet]

The hatred for Francona in this thread is beyond ridiculous.

I don't hate Francona and I don't think many people here do either.
But he has not had a good in-game managing season.
He is responsible for the coaching staff and they have been pretty awful.
Francona should be accountable for his perforamance everyday just like you and I.
He is not beyond criticism.

What is ridiculous is that we score 24 runs in two games and lose one of them.

[twibnotes]

If they wanted to win the division as much as winning a playoff series, Papelbon would have replaced Bard. So, sure, they want to win--but no one can seriously argue (and no one is) that putting Matt Fucking Gas Can Albers in with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 8th was a sign that this team felt that they had to have this game.

Using Albers instead of Papelbon was stupid regardless of what value they place on winning the division vs just making the playoffs. Win now so you can really let guys rest down the stretch. Sox could easily get swept in TB (look at the match ups)

[Rudy Pemberton]

It's also ironic to read about how Tito was smart to send Dave Roberts (81% success rate) but dumb to send Aviles (80%).

Of course, had Roberts been thrown out, doubt Tito would be here.

[Hee-Seop's Fable]

Moreover, isn't preserving Bard important?

Absolutely.

Side issue tonight, but Crawford hasn't gotten worse, he's simply leveled off at ordinary. He's never had a sustained streak comparable to ones he's had in previous years. I don't understand it given the protection from scrutiny he's had, and the opportunities to demonstrate the big game value he showed in Tampa. I think he needs a better sports shrink to recapture his Tampa mind-set, because there's no apparent physical issue remaining.

[Norm Siebern]

This was the worst loss of the year. Right now, with all things considered, I would not give his team two figs of a chance in the playoffs.

[irinmike]

Is it more important for Wakefield to get 200 wins or the Sox to pick up a game in the loss column to the Yankees. You could see the "choke" in Bard's face the entire time he was on the mound tonite. Why because it meant that much for him to help Wake get his 200th. Solution, get Wakefield OUT of the starting pitcher lineup. Lets get back to winning games, and not make any start by Wakefield an "event". As for Francona, he has always managed like this, but when you win the moves he makes or fails to make are always overlooked. Make out the lineup card, put a pitcher on the mound, and cheer for the team while they play. Thats been his mantra since he arrived, and it will be his deal until he leaves. Tonite was a perfect example of how NOT to manage a ball game.

[Jed Zeppelin]

For the record I don't want Tito fired nor do I think he is average or below average by any means. He is great at some things, average at other things, and bad at some other things. He has had his shining moments of glory and some cringe-worthy moments and his two titles put him in pretty good company. He is a good to very good manager. If he can pull it together and take this team to another title I would be willing to call him great, even though he once again has some crazy talent on his side.

[hunter05]

I don't hate Francona and I don't think many people here do either.
But he has not had a good in-game managing season.
He is responsible for the coaching staff and they have been pretty awful.
Francona should be accountable for his perforamance everyday just like you and I.
He is not beyond criticism.

What is ridiculous is that we score 24 runs in two games and lose one of them.

I'm not arguing against criticizing him or having an issue with his in-game decisions, but questioning his body of work seems, at best, moronic.

[twibnotes]

It's also ironic to read about how Tito was smart to send Dave Roberts (81% success rate) but dumb to send Aviles (80%).

Of course, had Roberts been thrown out, doubt Tito would be here.

True, but Francisco is not Mariano Rivera

[Norm Siebern]

What is ridiculous is that we score 24 runs in two games and lose one of them.

But hey, their pythag is awesome fantastic!

[TFisNEXT]

This was the worst loss of the year. Right now, with all things considered, I would not give his team two figs of a chance in the playoffs.

I actually like this team's chances if Lester/Beckett/Bedard are all healthy. Most of the losses in recent days have been when Andrew Miller, Lackey, and Wakefield pitched.

The bullpen blew the Lester start in the MFY series, but overall I think this team will be tough to beat with those 3 at the top. Even more optimistic if Buchholz can come back and pitch meaningful innings in the post season. It looks bad right now, but we have to remember which pitchers are losing these games.

Edited by TFisNEXT, 07 September 2011 - 10:17 PM.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

He is not beyond criticism.

No one is saying that he is.

[P'tucket, rhymes with...]

Is it more important for Wakefield to get 200 wins or the Sox to pick up a game in the loss column to the Yankees. You could see the "choke" in Bard's face the entire time he was on the mound tonite. Why because it meant that much for him to help Wake get his 200th. Solution, get Wakefield OUT of the starting pitcher lineup. Lets get back to winning games, and not make any start by Wakefield an "event". As for Francona, he has always managed like this, but when you win the moves he makes or fails to make are always overlooked. Make out the lineup card, put a pitcher on the mound, and cheer for the team while they play. Thats been his mantra since he arrived, and it will be his deal until he leaves. Tonite was a perfect example of how NOT to manage a ball game.

Wakefield is starting every fifth day because he's one of the five best guys we have available right now, not because the team is trying to do him a favor. You can't mess with Aceves without disrupting the obviously crumbling bullpen just now. Who's this obviously superior starter you have in mind to take his place?

[trekfan55]

Well his team outplayed Scioscia's team, as a more talented team will do. Managing or outmanaging him really didn't play into it. And Torre wasn't outmanaged as much as his team freaked out and choked. And Larussa? He is even more of an overrated manager than Francona could ever aspire to be.
He didn't make key decisions in '04 as much as he managed not to make any serious mistakes.

Maybe I am being too simplistic. It would take a College Essay to write all the things Tito did everyday to win in 2004. This is a game thread so I'll leave it at that. If anyone wants to starta thread in the main board then it's another story.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I actually like this team's chances if Lester/Beckett/Bedard are all healthy. Most of the losses in recent days have been when Andrew Miller, Lackey, and Wakefield pitched.

The bullpen blew the Lester start in the MFY series, but overall I think this team will be tough to beat with those 3 at the top. Even more optimistic if Bechholz can come back and pitch meaningful innings in the post season. It looks bad right now, but we have to remember which pitchers are losing these games.

Yeah I think that aspect is being overlooked a bit. In the playoffs, the good pitchers will be the ones doing most of the pitching. You can ride a rotation of Beckett/Lester/Bedard and a pen of Aceves/Bard/Papelbon to a title if they perform at or near the best of their ability.