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David Ortiz is upset


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#1 mabrowndog


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:48 AM

This may well be a tempest in a tea pot, but it's getting a lot of play in the local press so I'm throwing it out for discussion. It's a virtual certainty that this will be hyped and dissected at length on the FOX and ESPN national telecasts during this weekend's Yankee series, complete with pompous soapbox admonitions from Fuckface McCarver about what constitutes appropriate player behavior and professionalism.

For those who missed it, an obviously agitated David Ortiz interrupted Tito's press conference Wednesday night with something weighing heavy on his mind.

NECN (video won't embed)


Ortiz said "I'm [bleeping] pissed. We need to have a talk . . . you and me" before the manager and designated hitter agreed to talk about things at a more appropriate time.

Then Ortiz gave away exactly what was bothering him when he muttered "[Bleepin'] scorekeeper always [bleepin'] [bleep] up" while exiting the room.

Ortiz was most certainly upset about a change made by official scorer Chaz Scoggins in Wednesday night's game that turned his first inning two-run single into a one-run single with an error on the left fielder allowing the second run to score. That means an RBI was taken away from Ortiz midway through the game, and he was upset enough about it to bust up Francona's daily pregame meeting with the press with a few choice words.

When approached later in the clubhouse, Ortiz declined comment comment on the incident except to say it was "between me and Tito."


Today on WEEI's Dennis & Callahan, Scoggins explained his decision:

On the play in question during Wednesday night's game, the Red Sox had runners on second and third in the bottom of the first inning. Ortiz singled to left-center, where outfielder Austin Kearns bobbled the ball, and two runs scored. Scoggins initially gave Ortiz two RBIs as he determined the Red Sox' second baserunner, Kevin Youkilis, was heading home anyhow. But he later took away one of the RBIs.

Asked why he changed his scoring, Scoggins explained: "About two innings later, the Cleveland PR guy came over and told me their pitching coach had called him and told him that [Red Sox third base coach Tim] Bogar had put up a stop sign on Youkilis. I told him I didn't see the stop sign and I had looked immediately to see what the coach was doing and he'd waved him home. He said, 'Well, it's on tape somewhere.'

"So, I went back and reviewed the NESN tape. On their replay, sure enough, you could see Bogar throw up his hands to stop Youkilis until the ball was bobbled by Kearns, and then he waved him home. It was only an instant. He never really got his hands up all the way. But clearly, his intent was to stop Youkilis, even though there were two outs, until he saw the bobble.

"At that, I felt I could not give Ortiz two RBIs on that when the intent was to stop Youilis at third."

Scoggins, who writes for the Lowell Sun, said Ortiz' disappointment is not unusual, nor will it affect that way he scores games.

"I've been doing this for 34 years, official scoring, and I'm used to players being upset. So much of official scoring is objective. It's easy to understand why players think the way they do and why scorers think the way they do. It's inevitable that there's going to be conflict. I've never had any problem with it, as long as it doesn't get personal or confrontational."


A few observations:

* The interruption was a bit awkward, more so because of TIto's well-known distaste for interruptions during PCs. He'll sternly address anyone whose cell phone rings or beeps, or does anything disruptive, so it was a little odd for him to just laugh off Ortiz's barge-in. But it's another display of how Tito is a players' manager first and foremost, where he avoids doing or saying anything to upstage his guys even if it's warranted (his restraint following Lackey's recent over-reaction to being pulled from a start was yet another example).

* Obviously in hindsight, Ortiz would have been better served by just telling Pam Ganley (or whoever was at the side door) to be sure Tito knew he wanted to speak with him in private. And bitching out loud about the scoring decision was another regrettable move, especially for a veteran player viewed by many fans as being even-keeled for the most part. But really, it's just an athlete blowing off steam in the immediate aftermath of an event. The press is making far too big a stink about it, which of course is their modus operandi in this town.

* Many fans (and press members) are chiding Ortiz for (A) selfishly putting his stats above the team, and (B) caring way too much about a stat (RBI) and quantity (one) that they see as ranging from trivial to meaningless depending on perspective. On point A, again it was a gut reaction from him. Players have long held that they're judged by the folks that matter based on certain marks in the stat column. For many, even the most basic stats are what help drive them to achieve, as counter-intuitive as it may seem to those of us on the outside. For power hitters, it's all about the HRs and RBIs in their minds. As for point B, anyone who believes more than a handful of MLB players are aware of the sabermetric re-hashing of the RBI's viability over the past decade is kidding themselves.

* Scoggins' writings have given readers plenty of reasons to take issue with him over the decades, but I really have no problem with his scoring decision. The only slight head-scratcher is using the third base coach's signs as a bellwether for doling out or denying credit to a batter. Either the fielder's play allowed the run to score, or it didn't. Whether Bogar stopped the runner and re-sent him, or was waving him home all the way, is immaterial.

Any problems here with Ortiz's reactions, either his interrupting Tito or vocalizing his distaste for a scorer's decision, both within earshot of the entire Red Sox press corps and their microphones? Did Tito handle it properly? Any issues with Scoggins' decision and/or explanation?

Edited by mabrowndog, 05 August 2011 - 10:14 AM.


#2 JMDurron

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 09:57 AM

This may well be a tempest in a tea pot, but it's getting a lot of play in the local press so I'm throwing it out for discussion. It's a virtual certainty that this will be hyped and dissected at length on the FOX and ESPN national telecasts during this weekend's Yankee series, complete with pompous soapbox admonitions from Fuckface McCarver about what constitutes appropriate player behavior and professionalism.

...

* Scoggins' writings have given readers plenty of reasons to dislike him over the decades, but I really have no problem with his scoring decision. The only slight head-scratcher is using the third base coach's signs as a bellwether for doling out or denying credit to a batter. Either the fielder's play allowed the run to score, or it didn't. Whether Bogar stopped the runner and re-sent him, or was waving him home all the way, is immaterial.

Any problems here with Ortiz's reactions, either his interrupting Tito or vocalizing his distaste for a scorer's decision, both within earshot of the entire Red Sox press corps and their microphones? Did Tito handle it properly? Any issues with Scoggins' decision and/or explanation?


The only issue I have with the entire thing is where and how Ortiz brought it up. Tito handled it appropriately (from your description only, as my network folks will exterminate my entire family if I try to watch the video), Ortiz's reaction is understandable, and Scoggins' decision and explanation are perfectly reasonable.

I disagree with your paragraph on Scoggins with regards the the sign from Bogar. That seems pretty material to me. It was a single to LF, more or less directly to the LFer, in Fenway Park, with a slowish runner on 2B. If the 3B Coach is already waving the runner home prior to the bobble, then it is reasonable to think that the runner might have scored anyway. If the 3B coach is clearly shown to be preparing to stop said runner, and then waves him in after the bobble, then I think that makes it pretty clear that the runner scored because of the bobble, and would be standing at 3B otherwise. The coach's initial decision is the result of the batter's action, the subsequent action, if it differs from the initial one, can be reasonable said to be the result of the fielder's mistake instead of the batter's action.

#3 24JoshuaPoint


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:00 AM

I hadn't heard about this till I read the Scoggins explanation. I had a hard time believing that Ortiz had broken into the Press room during an actual PC with Francona until i just watched the video posted. I had no idea any players cared that much about individual stats; because that did seem pretty extreme. I remember Manny having issue with something a few years back and some of that made it to the papers but it wasn't anything like this.

I think he needs to chill out a little bit. He's not doing himself any favors. I always thought his arguing of nearly every strike called on him never did him any favors either although I think he's chilled in that respect.

#4 Buzzkill Pauley


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:03 AM

Any problems here with Ortiz's reactions, either his interrupting Tito or vocalizing his distaste for a scorer's decision, both within earshot of the entire Red Sox press corps and their microphones? Did Tito handle it properly? Any issues with Scoggins' decision and/or explanation?


I don't see why this is an issue at all -- I want Tito to have an open-door policy with the players as much as possible, so I'm glad he does.

And also thanks much Scoggins, I hope to see that very angry David Ortiz venting his ire on Colon later tonight.

#5 glennhoffmania


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

I think this is kind of ridiculous. I remember when Clemens for going for another Cy Young and there was an issue with a scoring decision about a Boggs play at the end of the season that turned unearned runs into earned runs. In that scenario, I could actually see the point because of the possible impact on the Cy Young voting.

But in this case, it's a fucking RBI. Why is Ortiz so upset about this? Does he think it'll affect his upcoming contract negotiations? And to interrupt Tito's press conference for it?

I don't get NESN so I didn't know this happened until I read the thread. When I saw the title I assumed it was something way more meaningful than an RBI dispute.

#6 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:10 AM

What a ridiculous overreaction by Ortiz. The fact that he busted into Tito's press conference and explicitly stated what his beef was leads me to believe that he fully intended for the press to pick up on this and report on it. I'm sure he felt wronged or whatever, but at least do a little background research (or speak to Tito about it in private) before assuming the worst and publicly making an ass out of yourself. I wonder how stupid he felt after hearing Scoggins' explanation.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 05 August 2011 - 10:11 AM.


#7 maufman


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:13 AM

* Scoggins' writings have given readers plenty of reasons to dislike him over the decades, but I really have no problem with his scoring decision. The only slight head-scratcher is using the third base coach's signs as a bellwether for doling out or denying credit to a batter. Either the fielder's play allowed the run to score, or it didn't. Whether Bogar stopped the runner and re-sent him, or was waving him home all the way, is immaterial.


A 7-to-2 play is hardly routine. If Youk was running all the way, Papi deserves his RBI. On the other hand, if Bogar threw up the stop sign and only waved Youk home after the bobble, then it's an error -- because if Kearns fields the ball cleanly, Youk doesn't score. So I agree with Scoggins that Bogar's sign to Youk is an important factor.

Not having seen the video, I can't judge whether Scoggins correctly interpreted what he saw.

#8 Dogman2


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:16 AM

Asked why he changed his scoring, Scoggins explained: "About two innings later, the Cleveland PR guy came over and told me their pitching coach had called him and told him that [Red Sox third base coach Tim] Bogar had put up a stop sign on Youkilis. I told him I didn't see the stop sign and I had looked immediately to see what the coach was doing and he'd waved him home. He said, 'Well, it's on tape somewhere.


Why in the hell would a PR guy and, by extension, the opposing teams pitching coach have any say on how the home team scorer scores the game? You hear it all the time about hometown scoring, why would Scoggins even listen to these guys?

#9 snowmanny

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:19 AM

I would say if there is evidence Bogar was going to give Youkilis the stop sign then he probably could have scored pretty easily on the play and Ortiz should get the ribbie.

#10 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:19 AM

Why in the hell would a PR guy and, by extension, the opposing teams pitching coach have any say on how the home team scorer scores the game? You hear it all the time about hometown scoring, why would Scoggins even listen to these guys?

Because they got it right?

#11 wutang112878


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:26 AM

McCarver's soapbox about this should be great this weekend, we should be very happy that we wont have to experience Joe Morgan talking about this on Sunday night baseball.

For the most part this is much to do about nothing. Ortiz wants the RBI because he wants to pad his stats for his next contract, but I dont see how he is putting himself above the team? This isnt a pitcher lobbying to stay too long in games to hit an innings bonus or something like that. The way Ortiz handled this certainly could have been better, but the handling of it by Tito couldnt have been better.

#12 Alcohol&Overcalls

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:30 AM

Because they got it right?


Also, from the pitching coach's perspective, an error on the LF is way less "important" than an earned run for his pitcher.

#13 Buffalo Head

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:32 AM

To give this some perspective, usually once or twice a season, Terry will be doing his pregame thing and David will open the door and ask him something "urgent" and Terry waves him away and David winks at the media and leaves. For the most part, its David just busting Terry's balls and its usually a lighthearted moment to break up the monotony of a long season.

Obviously, he was genuinely upset in this instance, so it became newsworthy. And there have been incidents between players and scorers in the past. Nomar had a famous one, as I recall. I seriously doubt anyone -- outside this thread -- will talking about it beyond today, however.

#14 YTF

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:33 AM

Papi was dead wrong with his approach to this, but I gotta say this is an ESPN commercial waiting to happen. Use the existing NECN clip seen here, edit out what he says about the score keeper, and as the door closes the camera cuts away to Wally sitting in Ortiz' locker. :lol:



#15 JimBoSox9


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:35 AM

Why in the hell would a PR guy and, by extension, the opposing teams pitching coach have any say on how the home team scorer scores the game? You hear it all the time about hometown scoring, why would Scoggins even listen to these guys?


It's not like Scoggins just said "yeah, you're right". They told him to check the tape and he did (specifically saw something in the replay that he looked for but didn't see live), and made a sensible decision based off of that. I'd prefer that then him telling them to eff off because they're the road team - he's a member of the media, not an employee of the Red Sox.



-It's a big media story because it was a little peek into the truth. We build narratives about chemistry and playing the game right, and we use Clemens/Bogss as an anecdote to describe why those 80s/early 90s teams didn't win anything. This story gives lie to those narratives - Ortiz screwed up by saying what he really thought and doing it where a camera was. It doesn't surprise me that there is media and public interest in this, and I don't think it's inappropriate either. If athletes want to give BS lines about just helping the team to win all the time instead of actually being interesting, they can expect to get whacked a bit when the facade cracks.

-I've gotten killed for this in game threads, and I'll probably get killed now, but this is a great example of why David Ortiz just isn't that likeable. I'll appreciate him for 2004 and 2007 forever, but he's never ever been in the pantheon of elite/favorite Boston athletes for me. Beneath the Big Papi smiles is a guy who I suspect is arrogant and entitled even by the standards of MLB players. This, the jogging to first, the bitching about strike calls, etc etc...it wears a little thin.

#16 mabrowndog


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:40 AM

A 7-to-2 play is hardly routine. If Youk was running all the way, Papi deserves his RBI. On the other hand, if Bogar threw up the stop sign and only waved Youk home after the bobble, then it's an error -- because if Kearns fields the ball cleanly, Youk doesn't score. So I agree with Scoggins that Bogar's sign to Youk is an important factor.

If Bogar throws up the stop sign, but Youk runs right through it, does it matter then? How about if Bogar waves him home but Youk stops on his own before resuming his sprint? What if fielder handles it cleanly, but the coach erroneously signals to stop the runner before realizing his mistake and resuming his wave?

This is why I find it ridiculous to use a coach's sign(s) as a gauge. Just watching the fielder and runner ought to be sufficient to make the call.

Edited by mabrowndog, 05 August 2011 - 10:41 AM.


#17 glennhoffmania


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:45 AM

I'm surprised so many people are focusing on whether the scoring decision was correct. The far bigger issue is Ortiz' reaction to the whole thing.

#18 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:49 AM

This is why I find it ridiculous to use a coach's sign(s) as a gauge. Just watching the fielder and runner ought to be sufficient to make the call.


The ridiculous thing is that baseball has official scorers making subjective interpretations of what constitutes an error and then attempt to reconstruct how the inning should have played out had error not occurred to determine which runs are earned and which are not. Everything beyond that is just window dressing in the realm of ridiculousness. Getting rid of the whole misguided concept of unearned runs would eliminate all of these pesky little problems. Next they could go about getting rid of the misguided concepts of saves and pitcher wins. Unfortunately, I don't expect any of these things will change in our lifetime.

Edited by Bucknahs Bum Ankle, 05 August 2011 - 10:50 AM.


#19 Dogman2


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:52 AM

Because they got it right?


Yes, but home town scorers generally side with the player and not with opposing team's coach. The pitching coach is looking for an unearned run for his pitcher. The player is looking for an RBI. The scorer usually sides with the home team's player. In this instance, right or wrong, why side with the opposing team? I mean, this is a discretionary call, leave it at that to the benefit of the player.

Edit: If this same play happened in Cleveland, would Ortiz be upset at the Cleveland scorer using the same home town logic?

Edited by Dogman2, 05 August 2011 - 10:55 AM.


#20 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:55 AM

Yes, but home town scorers generally side with the player and not with opposing team's coach. The pitching coach is looking for an unearned run for his pitcher. The player is looking for an RBI. The scorer usually sides with the home team's player. In this instance, right or wrong, why side with the opposing team? I mean, this is a discretionary call, leave it at that to the benefit of the player.

I realize that and was actually pleasantly surprised to see that Scoggins appears to be fairly impartial. Yet another reason why this whole concept is stupid.

#21 Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

To me the issue here, to the extent that we care about "clubhouse stuff" is that there is clearly tension between Ortiz and Francona. The RBI thing seems like a trigger for Ortiz's anger to me, not the cause of it. Later, apparently, Ortiz would only say that the incident was "between me and Tito." If the only thing he was "f*****g pissed" about was the scorekeeper, why wouldn't he just say so? He's never been shy about voicing his opinions before. I think this was a rare glimpse behind the curtain at the tensions that exist in the clubhouse and frankly, can be expected to exist in any clubhouse. I think it shows one of the strengths of Tito's management and the Red Sox organization as a whole is that these issues rarely flare up in public. They are almost always successfully handled "in house."

Maybe whatever the tensions are have something to do with the apparently recent appearance of the “What you see here, what you say here and what you hear here stays here" sign. Though as has been mentioned by me and others in this thread, those signs are pretty common in big league clubhouses and have been for decades. But if it's true that the Red Sox never felt the need to put up the traditional omerta warning until now, maybe there is something going on behind the scenes here.

Maybe Papi's stressed out over his contract situation. Who knows?

#22 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

This is a complete non-story and I highly doubt it will be brought up at all this weekend or by anyone outside of Boston. It was a player having an inside joke with his manager and the press and most of the posters above bear the brunt of it. Come on guys, do you really think this was serious? I mean look at Ortiz's and Tito's faces.

It's good to have a team that has locked up the playoffs so early, because if this is the most important stuff to discuss than the team is in great shape.

#23 JohntheBaptist


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 10:57 AM

I'm surprised so many people are focusing on whether the scoring decision was correct. The far bigger issue is Ortiz' reaction to the whole thing.

Why? Does it actually bother you that David Ortiz is passionate enough about this to get annoyed by it? We're not all sabermetricians. Its important to him. So what?

#24 Kenny F'ing Powers


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:00 AM

As usual, Tim Bogar fucks everything up.

#25 gammoseditor


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:00 AM

Maybe whatever the tensions are have something to do with the apparently recent appearance of the “What you see here, what you say here and what you hear here stays here" sign. Though as has been mentioned by me and others in this thread, those signs are pretty common in big league clubhouses and have been for decades. But if it's true that the Red Sox never felt the need to put up the traditional omerta warning until now, maybe there is something going on behind the scenes here.


This is the interesting part of the story to me. They were talking about this on "Mutt and Merloni" while I was driving to work. They made it seem like they put up this sign because Ortiz was upset this was being reported. If Ortiz makes a fool out of himself in front of the media while microphones and cameras are on then it would have to be fair game, right? WEEI did not mention that these signs are common in clubhouses.

#26 JBill

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:02 AM

Why? Does it actually bother you that David Ortiz is passionate enough about this to get annoyed by it? We're not all sabermetricians. Its important to him. So what?

I don't care that Ortiz is passionate about it or selfish or whatever, I only care about the part of his reaction that has to do with Tito. I agree with the posters saying he knew what he was doing interrupting the press conference, and it bothers me that he would do that to Tito. Not the end of the world, but a little disappointing.

#27 Dogman2


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:04 AM

I'm surprised so many people are focusing on whether the scoring decision was correct. The far bigger issue is Ortiz' reaction to the whole thing.



Again, if this play happened in Cleveland would Ortiz be this upset? Since this happened in Boston it is certainly fair that he wants the home team favoritism. I have no problem with that.

#28 KiltedFool


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:09 AM

So Scoggins I assume is up in the press box or similar location upstairs, and if the Tribe's pitching coach wanted to ask the scorer to take a look at the tape, how would he go about it? He's down in the dugout. He's not a lock to have the extension or phone number for the scorer's booth, but he'd be able to reach his own team's PR guy, who's likely in the same booth or right next door to the scorer.

Bogar's actions have gotten a lot of scrutiny lately, but Scoggins seems to me to be using Bogar's decision making as a tiebreaker, something along the lines of "I can't tell whether the second run was a result of the bobble or not, let's see what the intent of someone who was right in the middle of it with a perfect view, the 'man in the arena'." Bogar was seeing it all in real time, and his interpretation was a stop sign until the bobble. Yes the runner could have run through the stop sign or done anything he wanted, but a coach with the best vantage point that was right on the scene didn't want the runner to go until he saw the bobble.

Ortiz comes off looking badly, and either he's much more a numbers whore than anyone ever expected, or this is a symptom of something else. In the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal.

#29 terrynever


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:13 AM

I realize that and was actually pleasantly surprised to see that Scoggins appears to be fairly impartial. Yet another reason why this whole concept is stupid.

The scorer at PawSox games used to do occasional games at Fenway. He pointed out last night when talking about the Ortiz situation that most players think they get screwed on the road and expect hometown scorers to make up the difference. Scoggins has a rep for trying to be fair to both teams with his decisions.

#30 soxfan121


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:20 AM

I had no idea any players cared that much about individual stats;


Really? In a job where what you get paid is based largely on your stats you didn't realize players would be upset about a scoring change that affects their stats? I distinctly remember Nomar bitching about the official scorer's decisions and before him, Wade Boggs, and before him, etc. Ted Williams bitched about scoring decisions that took away hits and that probably was less about money than vanity, but still...

I have no idea why MLB doesn't hire an official scorer who doesn't sit in the press box, gets paid by the league office and whose identity is kept secret. Allowing any reporter to perform this role is just asking for trouble like this. For example, I have no idea what Scroggins past relationship with Ortiz is but I'm guessing they met before last night. Therefore, there may be some incident in the past or maybe Scroggins wrote a story about Ortiz's decline a couple seasons ago...whatever the specifics are, there's SOMETHING between them, even if it's just normal friction between player & media.

This is hardly a story if Ortiz bursts into a press conference and says exactly what he said last night and the assembled media isn't colleagues with the official scorer. Instead, the story is "Ortiz was upset by a scoring decision. MLB offices declined comment, as they do on every scoring decision made by Anonymous Official Scorer." Maybe Ortiz gets a little sympathy, maybe he gets criticized for caring about his stats. But it certainly doesn't include 1000 words of explanation from a guy who is ostensibly there to report, not be part of the story.

#31 glennhoffmania


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:26 AM

Why? Does it actually bother you that David Ortiz is passionate enough about this to get annoyed by it? We're not all sabermetricians. Its important to him. So what?

No, I'm fine with him being passionate about it. I'm talking about how disproportionate his reaction was compared to the magnitude of the issue. The fact that it's about RBIs, a stat most people on here don't give a shit about, isn't the point. The point is that this is all over one RBI.

#32 smastroyin


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:32 AM

No, I'm fine with him being passionate about it. I'm talking about how disproportionate his reaction was compared to the magnitude of the issue. The fact that it's about RBIs, a stat most people on here don't give a shit about, isn't the point. The point is that this is all over one RBI.


At the same time, the change in the first place was from a complaint over one Earned Run.

And Ortiz and his contract situation have a lot more invested in that run than Carlos Carrasco.

I think Scoggins ultimate decision is right, on the other hand, there are probably ways to have all this communication better. I would imagine that if Ortiz had never been credited with two RBI, he would have been less upset. That the RBI was credited then taken away is what causes someone to get pissed.

#33 TheYaz67

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:42 AM

Maybe Papi's stressed out over his contract situation. Who knows?


I think he is pissed because he is in a funk at the plate right now - he has been visibly frustrated after repeated ground outs to the right side in the past week, I have to imagine that has something to do with it. Since his grand slam (a 1-4 day on 7/27), he has in the past 8 games managed to go just 3 for 29, with 2 RBIs (and lots of stranded runners) - just angry at the world, and specifically the scorer, who he feels is not helping him while he is struggling....

#34 MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:45 AM

This is a complete non-story and I highly doubt it will be brought up at all this weekend or by anyone outside of Boston. It was a player having an inside joke with his manager and the press and most of the posters above bear the brunt of it. Come on guys, do you really think this was serious? I mean look at Ortiz's and Tito's faces.

It's good to have a team that has locked up the playoffs so early, because if this is the most important stuff to discuss than the team is in great shape.


100 percent agree with this. Are people watching that video and thinking Papi is really pissed? He's totally just fucking around. That is not the demeanor of someone that's actually upset. People raking Papi over the coals are nuts.

#35 joe dokes

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:46 AM

I dont care. But anything that gives Buck and McCarver a chance to get on their soapbox and whip up the idiocracy while pining for the old days & the "right way to play" is fine by me. I'm a firm believer in handing idiots all the tools they need to prove their idiocy. If I was with the Sox, I'd hand Ken Rosenthal little notes by the dugout profanely proclaiming my disdain for the manager.

He watches his homers. He questions official scorers. He's not Derek Jeter. Yawn.

#36 OttoC


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:48 AM

Right after the announcer called it a double, I said "single and error."

#37 Lose Remerswaal


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:50 AM

Which is another reason why when they add more replay, and have a 5th umpire in the booth as replay official, he can also be the Official Scorer, and allow the media to do the work of the media.

If there is any media left by then.

#38 JohntheBaptist


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:50 AM

No, I'm fine with him being passionate about it. I'm talking about how disproportionate his reaction was compared to the magnitude of the issue. The fact that it's about RBIs, a stat most people on here don't give a shit about, isn't the point. The point is that this is all over one RBI.

But that's all he has to care about. That's his entire profession. Its been a hot-ass summer. Yeah, he got frustrated and overreacted. And? Doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

#39 xjack


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:51 AM

When something like this happened 15 years ago, it merited one line in a notes column. Today, the ESPN-ization of sports coverage blows these things up into big stories. When sport coverage was primarily local, the local media could focus on more relevant questions like whether the back of the Sox rotation is any good. But national viewers don't care about local minutiae, which is how you end up with over-the-top attention given to unimportant records (like Brett Farvre's games-started streak) and controversies that really aren't controversial (like this Ortiz thing or the tempest in the spring with Jorge Posada).

Personally, I don't understand why any of this is important. Sports is not a morality play. JD Drew is not better than Manny Ramirez just because he's more polite. David Ortiz isn't any less valuable if he's actually a less nice guy than we've been lead to believe over the past eight years. I don't care whether the Red Sox are a team full of gentlemen and choir boys any more than I care whether Robert Plant and Jimmy Page were good guys when they recorded Led Zep 2. The problem is -- and I say this as a media person -- is that the topics that generate the highest ratings and the most page views online are rarely the ones that have the most impact on wins and losses.

#40 glennhoffmania


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:53 AM

At the same time, the change in the first place was from a complaint over one Earned Run.

And Ortiz and his contract situation have a lot more invested in that run than Carlos Carrasco.

Oh I agree. The Cleveland coach is being ridiculous as well. That doesn't diminish the nuttiness of Ortiz' reaction though.

#41 pedro1918

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 11:58 AM

Right after the announcer called it a double, I said "single and error."


Who called it a double? Orsillo didn't and Ortiz was standing on first base when the play was over.

#42 Phil Plantier

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:00 PM

When something like this happened 15 years ago, it merited one line in a notes column.



I'm pretty sure if you replaced "David Ortiz" with "Mo Vaughn," a move like this would be a whole Will McDonough column (or maybe several, complete with epithet)

#43 luckysox


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:02 PM

100 percent agree with this. Are people watching that video and thinking Papi is really pissed? He's totally just fucking around. That is not the demeanor of someone that's actually upset. People raking Papi over the coals are nuts.


I've watched this about 10 times now...I think Papi's pulling one over everyone here. No one, NO ONE looks angry in this clip. Pam's laughing, Papi is trying to keep a straight face, and Tito's laughing and shaking his head. I'm surprised at everyone's reaction here given what is actually in the clip.

#44 opes


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:06 PM

I'm not quite understanding why Papi is pissed at tito. I dont see how Tito is at fault for any of this.

#45 Deathofthebambino


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:07 PM

Would anyone be surprised if David Ortiz had a clause in his contract that provided him with an additional 100k, 500k, 1m if he hit 100 RBI's this season? Would that change folks' perception of his reaction?

I, for one, don't have a problem with the reaction, the explanation by the scorer or anything else, other than David interrupting Tito's press conference. There's a time and a place, and I'm sure there was going to be another opportunity 5-10 minutes later that David could have waited before saying something, and it would have avoided any of us knowing a damn thing about it.

#46 glennhoffmania


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:08 PM

Would anyone be surprised if David Ortiz had a clause in his contract that provided him with an additional 100k, 500k, 1m if he hit 100 RBI's this season? Would that change folks' perception of his reaction?

Yes, because it's not allowed by the CBA.

#47 Standard Bearer

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:09 PM

This is a complete non-story and I highly doubt it will be brought up at all this weekend or by anyone outside of Boston. It was a player having an inside joke with his manager and the press and most of the posters above bear the brunt of it. Come on guys, do you really think this was serious? I mean look at Ortiz's and Tito's faces.

It's good to have a team that has locked up the playoffs so early, because if this is the most important stuff to discuss than the team is in great shape.


Not really sure why you would think, watching that video, Ortiz was joking around. Well, that's not true ... I suspect you think it is because of how Francona handled it, which was to laugh it off. As BH mentioned earlier, Ortiz is good for busting into Francona's pregame press conference a couple times a year, with every one of those I remember from my time covering the team being a gag. (My personal favorite, from back in the days when it was still held in Francona's office, was Ortiz clearing the room by taking a dump in Francona's toilet.)

This was not him joking, IMHO. He was genuinely pissed, probably because he's slumping already, with his not wanting to talk about it afterward pretty solid evidence of that.

I do agree it's a non-story, much as I'm intrigued by a possible connection to the "what you see here" sign stuff. Just so happens we all got a view into something that usually happens behind closed doors.

#48 joe dokes

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:13 PM

Would anyone be surprised if David Ortiz had a clause in his contract that provided him with an additional 100k, 500k, 1m if he hit 100 RBI's this season? Would that change folks' perception of his reaction?



I'd be surpirsed. I thought bonuses for individual stats were from a bygone era. There are incentives for awards, starts/finishes, roster time, attendance. maybe they're not allowed, but you just hear too many for hits/wins/RBIs anymore. (That said, I suppose an RBI could cost him an MVP award, which surely has a bonus attched.).

EDIT: Hoffmania clarifies....

still yawning. As someone said, this could all be a put-on just so that when McBuck is interviewing Tito between inningins, he can say, "yeah, Timmy, everyone knows david is a useless pain in the ass, just like Pedroia."

Edited by joe dokes, 05 August 2011 - 12:14 PM.


#49 DannyHeep


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:27 PM

* Scoggins' writings have given readers plenty of reasons to take issue with him over the decades, but I really have no problem with his scoring decision. The only slight head-scratcher is using the third base coach's signs as a bellwether for doling out or denying credit to a batter. Either the fielder's play allowed the run to score, or it didn't. Whether Bogar stopped the runner and re-sent him, or was waving him home all the way, is immaterial.

Any problems here with Ortiz's reactions, either his interrupting Tito or vocalizing his distaste for a scorer's decision, both within earshot of the entire Red Sox press corps and their microphones? Did Tito handle it properly? Any issues with Scoggins' decision and/or explanation?


The fact that the third base coach was stopping Youk is 100% material to the conversation.

That is balls-on evidence that the runner would not have scored without the bobble. Coach throws his hands up, Youk stops, no run scores. Coach sees bobble and then sends the runner. You don't get clearer evidence than that. You also get the coaches perspective. A coach who has years of experience in these kinds of things didn't think he would score on the play. That is even more evidence to reverse the scoring call.

If the coach was waving him on the whole way, and then the bobble occurred then you have no real evidence either way, and he probably allows the initial scoring to stand.

#50 reggiecleveland


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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:28 PM

I watched the replay and could not see Youk hesitate at all. I was a poor decision to change. Ortiz handled it poorly, but in a sport where your identity is numbers I can understand his frustration. When I coached college basketball our home stats people were awful, and would not assign rebounds to about a third of missed shots. One of our kids missed leading the conference in rebounding by about three rebounds and it understandable rankled him, and others. If you are David Ortiz and when you are up for the Hall of fame some day (I don't think he has a chance but he probably hope he does)things like 100 rbi seasons matter. He had 99 rbi in 09, perhaps there was a questionable call there. So I can see how taking away and RBI would piss him off. And he if he gets to 100 this year he will just get there.