72 replies to this topic

[AMS25]

Wallace Matthews is a bit melodramatic, but I wonder if his recent discussion of Mo's recent elbow "tenderness" is on to something. Mo is 41; if he goes down, how does that affect the Yankees bullpen? Yep, we all know that Mo is ageless and indestructable and a True Yankee and we shouldn't read too much into one blown save, but......

[jon abbey]

Well, right now they'd be seriously fucked, because they're already thin in the back of the pen with Joba and Soriano out. If Soriano is back and pitching well, it would be much less of an issue.

[JimMonaghan]

I read somewhere last night that Rivera is on pace to make the most appearances in a season since 2005.

[jon abbey]

I read somewhere last night that Rivera is on pace to make the most appearances in a season since 2005.

Since it's almost exactly halfway through the season, that's easy to check:

http://www.baseball-...riverma01.shtml

It's true, but not by much, and his innings are right on track for his usual recent pace.

[RedOctober3829]

Rivera said himself that when he's pitching he doesn't feel any soreness. Everyone wants to think at the first sign of trouble with him that he's going to be done but hasn't been the case yet. I'll wait for the day he's actually diagnosed with a serious injury to try to predict his downfall.

[Dewy4PrezII]

With Mo at 41 and after countless predictions of his demise I will wait until his right arm falls off and after he fails to continue his dominance pithing with his left hand (working glove and pitch ala Jim Abbott) before I count Rivera out. At some point everyone ages right? Right?? Right???

[rembrat]

Rivera said himself that when he's pitching he doesn't feel any soreness. Everyone wants to think at the first sign of trouble with him that he's going to be done but hasn't been the case yet. I'll wait for the day he's actually diagnosed with a serious injury to try to predict his downfall.

Didn't Joba also pitch with no soreness? I don't mind him being out there. He is giving up a lot of hits and every time I watch it seems like he is constantly leaving flat cutters over the heart of the plate.

[crow216]

Didn't Joba also pitch with no soreness? I don't mind him being out there. He is giving up a lot of hits and every time I watch it seems like he is constantly leaving flat cutters over the heart of the plate.

Mo has never been a pitcher that doesn't allow hits though. He's, quite a few times in his career, been right around 1 hit to 1 ip. His stats are all right in line with what he's usually done up until this point. I mean, he's allowed 5 walks and 1hr all season. If he was leaving cutters right over the heart of the plate, they'd be right over the heart of the right field wall.

[mt8thsw9th]

Can someone start the "Is This the Worst Yankee Closer Since 1997" thread?

[jon abbey]

Girardi is expecting Soriano back fairly soon according to his comments today, probably not this weekend, but shortly after the break.

[Kevin Jewkilis]

His splits this year are really exaggerated:

Mo: Home and Away

Split	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
Home	20	69	68	0	10	2	0	0	.147	.159	.176	.336	12	.192	17	-3
Away	15	58	53	7	19	3	0	1	.358	.397	.472	.868	25	.439	202	140
Split	ERA	G	GF	SV	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	SO	BF	WHIP	K/9	K/BB
Home	0.00	20	17	13	20	10	0	0	0	1	16	69	0.55	7.2	16.0
Away	4.85	15	11	8	13	19	7	7	1	4	12	58	1.769	8.3	3.0

It's hard to wrap my head around this (even if it is entirely random BABIP-driven SSS voodoo) -- on the road, batters are hitting .358 against him, but at home they're putting up an OPS of .336! Throughout his career, he's been back-and-forth (pitching slightly better overall on the road). It isn't even just one game -- he has 4 blown saves, a loss, and another game he did his best to blow it (giving up a home run and a single before hanging on for a 1-run lead). Does anybody that's been watching him have a theory on what's going on? Is he actually pitching that much better at home or is he just forgetting to pack his lucky socks on road trips?

[jon abbey]

Yeah, that's really odd, it's like he's two different guys. I'd guess that maybe he's been getting a wide strike zone at home, but I've been watching and I know that's not the case, so I have no idea.

[rembrat]

I guess I only watch Rivera pitch on the road. I knew he was getting hit around, I just didn't know it was all on the road.

[CoolPapaBellhorn]

Mo has never been a pitcher that doesn't allow hits though. He's, quite a few times in his career, been right around 1 hit to 1 ip.

His career WHIP is 1.004, and in his last six full seasons he's been under 1.000 in five of them. If he's giving up a hit an inning, that's more than his recent history by a good amount.

If you take out the walks, his career HIP is .774.

[Sampo Gida]

The Orioles and Blue Jays seem to have done the most damage against him. These are the 2 teams he has faced the most. 8 1/3 IP, 11 hit and 4 ER, but almost all the damage in Bal/Tor (3 1/3 IP, 8 H, 4 ER in 3 games). I wonder if these 2 teams are stealing location on him at their home field, or maybe it's just a fluke.

[jon abbey]

He pulled out of the All-Star game, but is available tonight.

[Rough Carrigan]

The Orioles and Blue Jays seem to have done the most damage against him. These are the 2 teams he has faced the most. 8 1/3 IP, 11 hit and 4 ER, but almost all the damage in Bal/Tor (3 1/3 IP, 8 H, 4 ER in 3 games). I wonder if these 2 teams are stealing location on him at their home field, or maybe it's just a fluke.

Maybe he just doesn't get the Closer Emeritus strike zone called for him on the road.

[th@tkid]

He hasn't really gotten it the last two years.. at least not like he used
/no facts to back it up just jaded pinstripe colored observations the last two years.

[abty]

I wonder how much of his success was also psychological? You all know the 'oh, damnit' feeling you get when your team is in Yankee Stadium, down 1, and he's running up to the mound. To be honest, I can't even remember one big game he's blown at home. All of them seem to be on the road:

2004 ALCS, 2001 WS, 97 ALDS (Cle)

and any reg. season blown save I can recall were in Shea/Citi field and Oakland (Scutaro 3 run bomb). Strange. He's just super human at home, generous strike zone/psychological advantage or not.

[YankeesIsrael]

It hasn't always been like that.
http://www.baseball-...=2005&t=p#hmvis

BTW, he also blew game 2 of the 2004 ALDS at home, but eventually ARod bailed him out.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I wonder how much of his success was also psychological? You all know the 'oh, damnit' feeling you get when your team is in Yankee Stadium, down 1, and he's running up to the mound. To be honest, I can't even remember one big game he's blown at home. All of them seem to be on the road:

2004 ALCS, 2001 WS, 97 ALDS (Cle)

and any reg. season blown save I can recall were in Shea/Citi field and Oakland (Scutaro 3 run bomb). Strange. He's just super human at home, generous strike zone/psychological advantage or not.

You forgot the "catch the ball!" game, which was at home.

[Kevin Jewkilis]

His splits this year are really exaggerated:

It's hard to wrap my head around this (even if it is entirely random BABIP-driven SSS voodoo) -- on the road, batters are hitting .358 against him, but at home they're putting up an OPS of .336! Throughout his career, he's been back-and-forth (pitching slightly better overall on the road). It isn't even just one game -- he has 4 blown saves, a loss, and another game he did his best to blow it (giving up a home run and a single before hanging on for a 1-run lead). Does anybody that's been watching him have a theory on what's going on? Is he actually pitching that much better at home or is he just forgetting to pack his lucky socks on road trips?

He blew his 5th save on the road last night, but the split has basically disappeared. Since I posted that chart, batters are hitting .250/.250/.250 in Yankee Stadium III with no walks and a 19% k-rate. Elsewhere, they're hitting .227/.227/.273 with no walks and a 36% k-rate. He's allowed one run each in 4 and a third at home and 6 IP on the road. In the July 24 Oakland game, he stranded two inherited runners in the 8th before giving up a run on 4 hits to turn a 3-run lead into a 2-run win. Last night was a pretty tough blown save, to give up a run on one hit and two outs against a difficult offense.

My new theory is that somewhere in Panama he has a painting of a relief pitcher whose shoulder is hanging on by a thread as he sports an ERA above 6 and a dozen blown saves. We just need to convince him to stab it and then he'll finally become mortal.

[cromulence]

He only blew that save cause of Fenway. Scutaro's double is a routine fly ball anywhere else.

[NoMaRRaMoN]

He only blew that save cause of Fenway. Scutaro's double is a routine fly ball anywhere else.

If anyone should be griping about Fenway's dimensions, it's Josh Beckett. Beckett only allowed a run because of Fenway. As you can see, Nunez's home run is only out in Fenway. So, I guess you could blame Fenway for Rivera having a save opportunity to blow in the first place.

Edited by NoMaRRaMoN, 09 August 2011 - 09:38 AM.

[rembrat]

He only blew that save cause of Fenway. Scutaro's double is a routine fly ball anywhere else.

Dat delusion.
Dat butthurt.

[Mystic Merlin]

He only blew that save cause of Fenway. Scutaro's double is a routine fly ball anywhere else.

More like it's a home run anywhere else.

Do you not understand basic dimensions and physics?

[RingoOSU]

He only blew that save cause of Fenway. Scutaro's double is a routine fly ball anywhere else.

My question, and more appropriate for the title, iswhy did Girardi think Hughes was a better 10th option than a Mo who only threw 9 pitches, of which only one was a fluke hit?

Edit: Not trying to sound snarky, I'm really baffled by the one inning Mo use.

Edited by RingoOSU, 09 August 2011 - 10:14 AM.

[cromulence]

More like it's a home run anywhere else.

Do you not understand basic dimensions and physics?

Wow. If you're gonna come off like such a know-it-all, you should probably be right. Go watch the video. It looks scary off the bat, but he just missed it. Gardner gets back to the wall and waits - and waits - and watches the ball scrape off the wall on its downward trajectory. It was a high-arcing flyball. The ball was gonna land like 10 feet past the monster, if it hadn't been there. It's an out.

That said, I'm not blaming Fenway for the outcome. I realize Nunez's HR was a cheapshot. Just saying I'm not worred about Mo. At all.

Edited by cromulence, 09 August 2011 - 10:12 AM.

[cromulence]

Dat delusion.
Dat butthurt.

Dude, your act is funny, but cmon. I'm not delusional at all. I'm stating a fact. You guys would whine like crazy if Papelbon blew a slave on a cheap Yankee Stadium homer; all I'm saying is Mo got Fenway'd.

[hunter05]

Dude, your act is funny, but cmon. I'm not delusional at all. I'm stating a fact. You guys would whine like crazy if Papelbon blew a slave on a cheap Yankee Stadium homer; all I'm saying is Mo got Fenway'd.

I love this post with all my heart and soul.

[JohntheBaptist]

That said, I'm not blaming Fenway for the outcome. I realize Nunez's HR was a cheapshot. Just saying I'm not worred about Mo. At all.

So if Scutaro'd hit a "legitimate" double, you would be worried about Mo?

You're blaming Fenway for the outcome. Just say it.

[jon abbey]

My question, and more appropriate for the title, iswhy did Girardi think Hughes was a better 10th option than a Mo who only threw 9 pitches, of which only one was a fluke hit?

Edit: Not trying to sound snarky, I'm really baffled by the one inning Mo use.

Well, NY needed at least two more IP at that point if they were going to win, so maybe he figured he'd need Hughes anyway and better to have him in a tie game than trying to protect a lead.

Also, he really tries to stay away from using Mo in multiple innings in regular season games these days, although admittedly he doesn't always succeed. If the wild card didn't exist, presumably Mo would have been in there for a second inning.

[Toe Nash]

Well, NY needed at least two more IP at that point if they were going to win, so maybe he figured he'd need Hughes anyway and better to have him in a tie game than trying to protect a lead.

This doesn't make sense. There's less margin for error in a tie game than with a lead. Not to mention there's a chance the Yankees get a three-run homer and it's not even a high-leverage save.

[joe dokes]

This doesn't make sense. There's less margin for error in a tie game than with a lead. Not to mention there's a chance the Yankees get a three-run homer and it's not even a high-leverage save.

I agree with this. But I also can't really find fault with Girardi not pitching his aged reliever for 2 innings in a game in early August.

But I was surprised to see Hughes in relief. Hadn't he just come off two non-sucky starts? And his relief appearance bumped his next start back, too. So while not using Rivera was sound long-range strategy, using Hughes and throwing him out of the rotation seemed to be just the opposite. Was the NY pen so completely spent that there was no alternative? I have no idea what Hughes's future is, but his own team throwing up roadblocks like this can't help much.

[cromulence]

So if Scutaro'd hit a "legitimate" double, you would be worried about Mo?

You're blaming Fenway for the outcome. Just say it.

No I didn't say that at all. I'm just saying Mo blowing that save doesn't cause me any concern nor do I think it warranted bumping this thread. I think his appearance was fine. Fenway giveth and taketh. It's annoying but its not why the Sox won the game.

[jon abbey]

This doesn't make sense. There's less margin for error in a tie game than with a lead. Not to mention there's a chance the Yankees get a three-run homer and it's not even a high-leverage save.

Sure, that's true, but the question was why Girardi did what he did. My guess is if you asked him (and I'm sure someone did), he'd say something like "Hughes has been in that situation before as a setup guy", and to his thinking, Hughes possibly trying to get the save would be a pretty new situation for him. Dunno, just guessing really...

As for why use him at all, NY has a really odd situation right now with their rotation, six guys healthy and the worst of them is being paid too much to drop him out entirely (at least as of now), and so Hughes was deemed eligible to pitch out of the bullpen this weekend going in.

[singaporesoxfan]

Isn't there a case to be made for using starting pitchers in relief roles on the day of their side sessions? I didn't think using Hughes was a bad decision in itself - I would only question why Rivera wasn't given an extra inning, with Hughes saved for the 11th inning.

[Kevin Jewkilis]

Looking at the game log, he's pitched in more than one inning three times this season, on long rest each time (4, 5, and 3 days). It's probably as simple as Girardi trying to not do too much with him in too little time in the regular season given that they're almost certain to make the playoffs.

[joe dokes]

Isn't there a case to be made for using starting pitchers in relief roles on the day of their side sessions? I didn't think using Hughes was a bad decision in itself - I would only question why Rivera wasn't given an extra inning, with Hughes saved for the 11th inning.

You are right. Often, the "throw-day" guy might be good for an emergency ining or two. But here, though, after using Hughes for less than an inning (13 pitches), they've altered the rotation. I think he was supposed to pitch tonight or tomorrow. Now it seems like he's out of the rotation entirely (FWIW-- ESPN.com doesn't have him listed as starting for the next 7 days at least.) He's 25, coming off a pretty good year, and it seems that they jerk him around like he's a fringe veteran who should be thankful to have a major league payheck.

[jon abbey]

He's 25, coming off a pretty good year, and it seems that they jerk him around like he's a fringe veteran who should be thankful to have a major league payheck.

He had a fantastic first half of 2010, a mediocre at best second half, a dreadful start to 2011 before being put on the DL, and since he's come back has been adequate with one very nice (albeit 6 innings truncated by rain) start against the punchless White Sox. He's being treated more than fairly IMO.

Ideally Burnett would be put on the DL for a couple of weeks if he doesn't pitch lights out tonight with a phantom injury, but since I doubt that will happen, Hughes and maybe Nova will continue to get jerked around even though NY really needs both of them to be in the 2012 rotation.

[th@tkid]

The original idea was Hughes would pitch Thursday (after his relief stint) pushing Colon back or skipping him entirely this time around. Lohud has the rotation listed with Colon in it but Girardi hinted at this prior to and during the Sox series.

[Adrian's Dome]

No I didn't say that at all. I'm just saying Mo blowing that save doesn't cause me any concern nor do I think it warranted bumping this thread. I think his appearance was fine. Fenway giveth and taketh. It's annoying but its not why the Sox won the game.

I hope you realize that if the game had taken place in Yankee Stadium instead of Fenway that Ortiz's double would've been a big fat HR, so...you can say what you want about Fenway, but it works both ways. Scutaro still scorched that ball. You can't blame park factors for any specific outcome in a game...it's like saying Lester would be a Cy Young winner every year if he pitched in Petco.

Edited by Adrian's Dome, 09 August 2011 - 03:18 PM.

[tims4wins]

I hope you realize that if the game had taken place in Yankee Stadium instead of Fenway that Ortiz's double would've been a big fat HR, so...you can say what you want about Fenway, but it works both ways. Scutaro still scorched that ball. You can't blame park factors for any specific outcome in a game...it's like saying Lester would be a Cy Young winner every year if he pitched in Petco.

Did you even read his response? "Fenway giveth and Fenway taketh away...it's not why the Sox won the game". All cromulence is saying is that he's not concerned about Mo based on how he pitched. Which is a perfectly reasonable statement. I wouldn't be concerned either if Paps had blown a save due to a wall scraping double that would have been an out anywhere else. Yeah, it'd suck to lose like that, but it happens, and as cromulence pointed out, there are many other factors that went into the loss than a single wall scraping double.

[Adrian's Dome]

Did you even read his response? "Fenway giveth and Fenway taketh away...it's not why the Sox won the game". All cromulence is saying is that he's not concerned about Mo based on how he pitched. Which is a perfectly reasonable statement. I wouldn't be concerned either if Paps had blown a save due to a wall scraping double that would have been an out anywhere else. Yeah, it'd suck to lose like that, but it happens, and as cromulence pointed out, there are many other factors that went into the loss than a single wall scraping double.

Obviously. We've got a 15 year sample size on Mo, including this season, that gives everyone plenty of reasons to not be concerned about him. He only made that statement after first blaming Fenway, I was just giving a counter-argument to Scutaro's hit in that Ortiz's would've had a better result in a certain different environment.

[tims4wins]

Obviously. We've got a 15 year sample size on Mo, including this season, that gives everyone plenty of reasons to not be concerned about him. He only made that statement after first blaming Fenway, I was just giving a counter-argument to Scutaro's hit in that Ortiz's would've had a better result in a certain different environment.

Seemed to me like all he was saying was:

1) Mo only blew the save due to Fenway (I basically agree with this point)

and

2) The overall outcome of the game had nothing to do with Fenway (also agree with this)

I don't see how anything he said is remotely controversial. It's just another case of this board jumping all over a MFY fan for no good reason.

Edit: basically, the argument is that it is possible to blame Mo's blown save on the park without blaming the outcome of the game on the park. Doesn't seem to be a contradictory statement to me.

Edited by tims4wins, 09 August 2011 - 03:39 PM.

[rembrat]

Didn't Joba also pitch with no soreness? I don't mind him being out there. He is giving up a lot of hits and every time I watch it seems like he is constantly leaving flat cutters over the heart of the plate.

Bump.

[Sampo Gida]

Mo's woes continue at home to hand the yankees their 3rd straight loss. His 0.37 ERA at home took a bump (1IP, 2 ER, 1 HR). The 377 ft HR to Abreu may have been an out at Fenway (did not see it just going by the summary and dimensions)

http://scores.espn.g...ameId=310809110

Not a good time for Rivera to slump. IIRC he also had a little slump last year in September but was strong in the playoffs.

[Lose Remerswaal]

A: maybe a good thing he didn't sign here for 3 years
B: still wondering if the Yanks will be chasing Papelbon?

[NoMaRRaMoN]

Mo gave up another homer (to pinch hitter Russell Branyan), but still got the save today. I'm still in the "Get Back to Me in October" camp, but I could see Yankee fans starting to worry.

Edited by NoMaRRaMoN, 11 August 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[rembrat]

rembrat, on 05 July 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:
Didn't Joba also pitch with no soreness? I don't mind him being out there. He is giving up a lot of hits and every time I watch it seems like he is constantly leaving flat cutters over the heart of the plate.

Bump.

Bumpan.