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Daisu(BB)e to the DL


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#151 SoxScout


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Posted 24 May 2011 - 07:01 PM

Jeff Passan: Red Sox in no-win situation with Dice-K

Daisuke Matsuzaka is back in Japan, and if Boston Red Sox brass were slipped a dose of truth serum, they’d love for him never to return. It’s one thing to deal with a headache. It’s another to pay $103 million for it.

With his right elbow pained by a sprained ulnar collateral ligament – the one that when damaged badly enough results in Tommy John surgery, and may yet do so for him – Daisuke sits on the disabled list for the fifth time in two seasons. Among his shoulder, elbow and forearm, he’s faced problems with every part of his arm. The only thing left is his hand, and as many times as he’s raised a figurative middle finger at the organization, it’s a shock he hasn’t hurt that, too.

Matsuzaka’s tack with the Red Sox, according to sources inside and outside the organization, has been simple: Ignore what they want and do what he wants. While manager Terry Francona continues to stick up for Matsuzaka publicly – “Dice has been really good about this,” he said – the Red Sox’s regret is tempered only by the expiration date of his deal drawing nearer by the day.

When Boston dropped a $51.1 million bid for the rights to negotiate with Matsuzaka, then in late 2006 handed him a six-year, $52 million contract, they expected an ace. They got an ACE: Another Chubby Easterner, Hideki Irabu 2.0, a disappointment, a waste of money.

A bust.

If Matsuzaka can avoid Tommy John, it’s more of the same. As much as their lack of pitching depth frightens them, the Red Sox also grew frustrated at Matsuzaka giving up seven runs in one start and twirling 15 innings of two-hit, shutout ball in his next pair. That Daisuke whets Boston’s appetite enough where it deals, begrudgingly, with his diva behavior. One source called him “stubborn,” another “pigheaded” and one more, in the most chilling assessment, “lazy.” That source added: “They’re tired of his act.”



#152 redsox2020

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 07:37 PM

After Dice-K re-appears from his side trip tpo Japan, he has an appointment with Dr Jobe a week from Friday

https://twitter.com/#!/pgammo/status/73163767000731648 mabrowndog is a dingus

#153 czar


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Posted 24 May 2011 - 07:44 PM

I might add that if you bowl and throw a hook, the amount of hook will decrease and manifest itself closer to the pins the faster you throw the ball.


Contingent on many other factors (mainly how the ball surface interacts with the lane surface and the axis around which the ball rotates) which makes any corollary between bowling hook and baseball pitch motion a poor one. Completely different force balances (inertial/frictional vs. Magnus/gravity) at work.

</end bowler dork rant, back to Dice-K>

Edited by czar, 24 May 2011 - 07:44 PM.


#154 koufax32


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Posted 24 May 2011 - 08:37 PM

If he loses velocity, might he gain movement? There is often talk about fastballs "straightening out" when the velocity increases. Anecdotally, in some of the other threads, posters have stated that Bard's fastballs last night were in good locations, but were perhaps hittable because they appeared to be straight and without much movement.

I don't know whether there is any Pitch/fx evidence to support the general premise of slower = more movement for some/many pitchers - either on a general level or re: Bard specifically. But it seems like a possibility, at least on the level of whatever the baseball equivalent is of an old wive's tale.


In college he had great velocity late into games. The FB was also arrow straight.

#155 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:39 AM

Jeff Passan: Red Sox in no-win situation with Dice-K

The continuing pattern of "sources" kicking players while they're down remains a constant irritation. If Passan's not just making this stuff up, airing dirty laundry like this doesn't reflect well on the organization regardless of the validity of the complaints.

#156 JMDurron

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:53 AM

The continuing pattern of "sources" kicking players while they're down remains a constant irritation. If Passan's not just making this stuff up, airing dirty laundry like this doesn't reflect well on the organization regardless of the validity of the complaints.


Passan seems like a very atypical avenue for airing the dirty laundry. I would have expected Gammons, CHB, or maybe an article from WEEI.com to be the method of attack if this was an "unofficial official leak." Has Passan been used in the past, and I'm just not aware of it? The only source that is quoted at the end of the article could either be one of the "inside" sources that Passan references, or one of the "outside" sources.

#157 Joshv02

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:54 AM

And, extending this logic to Bard, how much heat would Bard lose if he had to stretch out for starting? In so doing, how much of his effectiveness is lost? An enormous part of his effectiveness on offspeed pitches is from the speed differential which might significantly close in a starting gig.

Sprowl said he might move from 98 to 95, is there any reason to think that might fall to 93 or 92 as the season wears on?

Bard was known in the minors and in college for maintaining velocity. This was evident in the college ws too. In the minors, couldn't throw a strike, but he could throw hard for a long time.

When I saw Paps in the minors, too (again, not many starts) he generally dropped noticeably by the 5th inning. I don't think there was much comparison to Bard - they throw with very different styles and different amounts of effort.


I don't think Bard will be converted to a starters role but if he is, I don't suspect that diminished velocity would be any reason for ineffectiveness.

#158 Carl Everetts Therapist


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:12 AM

That article by Passan seems more like an opinion piece than anything else.

It is pretty much worthless and I wouldn't read anything into it other than Passan isn't a fan of Dice-K...

I don't believe that Dice-K's problems have to do with laziness, he seems to be a max effort type guy.. infact that may be more to fault than a lack of effort.

#159 Rudy Pemberton


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:27 AM

It seems like every source is speaking negatively of Dice-K, though, and it's always been that way. Maybe there's a conspiracy, or maybe he's just not a popular player for whatever reason. Ultimately seems like a lot of frustration has built up over the years, but the Sox need to take responsibility. They knew (or should have known about) about his habits, regimens, etc. when they bid on him, not sure why they would expect him to change.

#160 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:28 AM

That article by Passan seems more like an opinion piece than anything else.

It is pretty much worthless and I wouldn't read anything into it other than Passan isn't a fan of Dice-K...

I don't believe that Dice-K's problems have to do with laziness, he seems to be a max effort type guy.. infact that may be more to fault than a lack of effort.

Passan has "sources" that use derogatory terms to describe Dice K. He put those terms in quotes to show they were direct lines from his sources. Now, his sources could be the scalpers outside the park, but in all likelihood they're not. A lot of the article is an opinion piece, but he's not making it up that some people within the team don't have kind things to say about Dice K and were willing to talk to Passan about it. I hate that shit.

What amuses/disappoints me is that Passon rails about Dice K's stubbornness and refusal to do things the team's way, but the team just made him change his between-starts routine a few weeks ago and suddenly today he's facing elbow surgery. Dice K did change his routine, and promptly got hurt. Maybe not directly causative, but you'd think someone might connect the dots there.

#161 twothousandone

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:42 AM

Matsuzaka’s tack with the Red Sox, according to sources inside and outside the organization, has been simple: Ignore what they want and do what he wants


Dice K did change his routine, and promptly got hurt. Maybe not directly causative, but you'd think someone might connect the dots there.


There is a vibe that says Matsuzaka's way is wrong, and, though tougher to read, that he'd rather get hurt his way than stay healthy the Sox way. It is tough to imagine that is really the case. I have no doubt that the person within the Red Sox organization most passionate about Matsuzaka staying healthy and pitching very well is Matzusaka himself.

If the Red Sox are so smart, why didn't they put him on the DL after the game in Seattle?

#162 Buzzkill Pauley

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:43 AM

Passan has "sources" that use derogatory terms to describe Dice K. He put those terms in quotes to show they were direct lines from his sources. Now, his sources could be the scalpers outside the park, but in all likelihood they're not. A lot of the article is an opinion piece, but he's not making it up that some people within the team don't have kind things to say about Dice K and were willing to talk to Passan about it. I hate that shit.

What amuses/disappoints me is that Passon rails about Dice K's stubbornness and refusal to do things the team's way, but the team just made him change his between-starts routine a few weeks ago and suddenly today he's facing elbow surgery. Dice K did change his routine, and promptly got hurt. Maybe not directly causative, but you'd think someone might connect the dots there.


Except that in his quoting of his source saying that "They're tired of his act" indicates that the source making such derogatory comments was not a club source, nor should his failure to identify the source as an MLB-source go unnoticed. Not only was the source not a Red Sox source, it wasn't even a baseball source. Who does that leave? Other media, or perhaps Johnny at Burger King.

So if Passan was quoting CWB or PeteAbe, would anyone here be surprised at those descriptives?

I expect Matsuzaka is in Japan talking to doctors in his primary language. The Sox and Boras have their own go-to doctors, so I can't begrudge DiceK talking to one of his. The upshot will probably still be TJ anyway, and the likelihood that he'll never pitch again in a Sox uniform. That would be a suitably disappointing ending to a disappointing signing.

#163 Jimy Hendrix

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:55 AM

The worst thing about that Passan article is that you can feel him high-fiving himself about that painfully forced ACE line as you read it.

The undeserved self-satisfaction just radiates right out of the words.

Clever acrostics are not as easy as the Wu-Tang Clan makes them seem.

#164 Bucknahs Bum Ankle


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:08 AM

The worst thing about that Passan article is that you can feel him high-fiving himself about that painfully forced ACE line as you read it.

The undeserved self-satisfaction just radiates right out of the words.

Clever acrostics are not as easy as the Wu-Tang Clan makes them seem.

Yep, that was lame and borderline offensive. Yes Mr. Passan, those "easterners" are all alike, we should have seen this coming.

#165 luckysox


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:25 AM

The worst thing about that Passan article is that you can feel him high-fiving himself about that painfully forced ACE line as you read it.

The undeserved self-satisfaction just radiates right out of the words.

Clever acrostics are not as easy as the Wu-Tang Clan makes them seem.


I dismissed the article as worthless as soon as I read the ACE remark. I honestly won't give this piece another serious thought - using such offensive language as a "journalist" pretty much saps all credibility in my eyes. I'll just keep waiting with the rest of us to see what the outcome is, and how the Sox handle it when it comes. Until then, everything else is mostly idle speculation mixed with some indefensible horse pucky.

#166 Shelterdog


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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:32 AM

Except that in his quoting of his source saying that "They're tired of his act" indicates that the source making such derogatory comments was not a club source, nor should his failure to identify the source as an MLB-source go unnoticed. Not only was the source not a Red Sox source, it wasn't even a baseball source. Who does that leave? Other media, or perhaps Johnny at Burger King.

The problem with the article is that it's so poorly sourced we can't even tell if it's club-sponsored hit piece. Normally it's much easier to tell (e.g., an on the record source says something slightly negative then a "club source" says awful source consistent with but much worse than the on the record info).

#167 kneemoe

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 10:55 AM

Passan has "sources" that use derogatory terms to describe Dice K. He put those terms in quotes to show they were direct lines from his sources. Now, his sources could be the scalpers outside the park, but in all likelihood they're not. A lot of the article is an opinion piece, but he's not making it up that some people within the team don't have kind things to say about Dice K and were willing to talk to Passan about it. I hate that shit.

What amuses/disappoints me is that Passon rails about Dice K's stubbornness and refusal to do things the team's way, but the team just made him change his between-starts routine a few weeks ago and suddenly today he's facing elbow surgery. Dice K did change his routine, and promptly got hurt. Maybe not directly causative, but you'd think someone might connect the dots there.


Wasn't the change intended to get him back to what he used to do in Japan? He's got a ton of mileage on his arm already, and I think we all know he's a bit injury prone because of that.

http://fullcount.wee...es-for-daisuke/

"It represents a seemingly incidental change of course, yet for a pitcher who is incredibly committed to his process of preparing for starts, it required some negotiation. The adaptation from the schedule in Japan — where pitchers typically get six days of rest between starts, rather than the four or five in Major League Baseball — has made it challenging to find a routine that balances Matsuzaka’s desire to throw with the increased workload in games.

[Pitching coach Curt Young] and [Matsuzaka] had been talking about throwing his side a day later. With what Dice has been doing over the course of his career, in Japan, they had the extra day. So he’d have long toss [one day], side [the next],” Francona told reporters in Bradenton, prior to the Sox’ game against the Pirates. “Here he’s been doing it on the same day. He’s always done it. He was adamant he would do it. Curt’s trying to get him where he doesn’t do it on the same day. We asked him, hey, just try it. That’s what we’re attempting to do.”"

#168 HriniakPosterChild

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 08:55 PM

If the Red Sox are so smart, why didn't they put him on the DL after the game in Seattle?


Because the Sox haven't been to Seattle this year? </snark>

#169 nvalvo


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:34 PM

From the Globe's Daigo Fujiwara, via Twitter:

Mamoru Shikama of Nikkan Sports in Japan is reporting that Daisuke Matsuzaka needs Tommy John surgery. #RedSox bit.ly/kS7PKm


Edited by nvalvo, 01 June 2011 - 08:35 PM.


#170 kelpapa

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:36 PM

@amalieBenjamin
Dice may have pitched his last game for the Sox.

RT @DaigoFuji: Nikkan Sports in Japan is reporting that Daisuke Matsuzaka needs Tommy John surgery. #RedSox


Edit: What he said...

Edited by kelpapa, 01 June 2011 - 08:37 PM.


#171 Foulkey Reese


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:56 PM

Welp, thanks for the 2 wins in the 2007 post season.

#172 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:12 PM

And next up is Lackey. When Crawford tears his knee then maybe they'll stop Theo from ever going big in free agency again.

I guess this will force them to go and get someone who can go more than 5 innings in less than 100 pitches. the problem is that they don't have the trading chips to match the Yankees or most other teams that might need an innings eating starter

#173 Noah

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:20 PM

And from an American source, Tim Brown

Source: Matsuzaka leaning toward TJ surgery after Yocum found significant tear and recommended procedure. DM to discuss with Red Sox.



#174 BCsMightyJoeYoung

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:24 PM

And next up is Lackey. When Crawford tears his knee then maybe they'll stop Theo from ever going big in free agency again.

I guess this will force them to go and get someone who can go more than 5 innings in less than 100 pitches. the problem is that they don't have the trading chips to match the Yankees or most other teams that might need an innings eating starter


I think they will see what they can get from Doubront in the next 8 weeks before pulling the trigger on a trade. I bet he's up after he gets completely stretched out.

#175 mabrowndog


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:44 PM

Apparently Daisuke flew from Japan to L.A. yesterday, and he and Boras went to see Yocum together today.

The Google translation of the Nikkan report mentions a few things of interest. It says he had "returned home temporarily for treatment". That's confusing, since according to the Sox he had gone back to Japan to attend to personal affairs.

The translation then states: "play cell activation and muscle, also used in medical and orthopedic therapy PRP (platelet injection), including repeated treatments in Japan, where recovery had trouble watching the situation. This test is appropriate for two weeks. Still, finding a doctor Yoakum, rather than continuing the rehabilitation of transplant surgery was a complete cure."

It continues (paraphrasing): Boras has sent the results of the exam to the team, and in talks over the next two days an official decision will be reached. Surgery could be performed as early as next week. Recovery will take 12 to 18 months.

If I'm interpreting this right, the "treatment" he received in Japan was repeated doses of platelet injection therapy (PTP), which it calls an appropriate measure for the first two weeks. Sounds like he underwent the injections without the club's knowledge or approval, but hopefully someone with better translation abilities can confirm.

Edited by mabrowndog, 01 June 2011 - 10:12 PM.


#176 bosockboy


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:55 PM

He just had too much mileage on the arm...they misjudged the effects of his pitcher abuse in Japan. Not blaming them....I still like the move and the risk they took. Just didn't work out.

#177 MHead81

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:59 PM

MLBTR is reporting that he is going to have Tommy John surgery.

Edit:: per Gordon Edes Twitter

Edited by MHead81, 01 June 2011 - 10:00 PM.


#178 Tokyo Sox


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:03 PM

The translation then states: "play cell activation and muscle, also used in medical and orthopedic therapy PRP (platelet injection), including repeated treatments in Japan, where recovery had trouble watching the situation. This test is appropriate for two weeks. Still, finding a doctor Yoakum, rather than continuing the rehabilitation of transplant surgery was a complete cure."


Okay, okay, hold on, I'll read it...

#179 P'tucket, rhymes with...


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:06 PM

MLBTR is reporting that he is going to have Tommy John surgery.

Edit:: per Gordon Edes Twitter


The sumbitch is going to turn up in Oakland two years from now, and shut us down in that cow pasture they call a baseball field on the opening game of a West Coast swing.

Bleh. Liked the signing at the time, just didn't work out.

#180 SeanBerry


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:06 PM

I imagine future generations won't hate this deal as much as the modern Sox fan does. 49-30 with a better then league average ERA. He was a solid part of a World Championship team and he won a World Series game and even had a big hit. They should find his periphals oddly fun.

The signing was obviously not a good one. They could have spent the money in much better ways and depending on him hurt a lot over the past 3 seasons.

It was a strange time here from a guy who seems pretty strange. He seemed likable but distant. Even though he made over a 100 starts with the team, it always seemed like you never knew what you were going to get. He was a total mystery.

Weird.

#181 HriniakPosterChild

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:28 PM

The signing was obviously not a good one. They could have spent the money in much better ways and depending on him hurt a lot over the past 3 seasons.


But, but, what about the marketing opportunities this opened up for Fenway Sports Group?! Think about what it did for the Red Sox brand in East Asia!

#182 Clears Cleaver


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:52 PM

I think they will see what they can get from Doubront in the next 8 weeks before pulling the trigger on a trade. I bet he's up after he gets completely stretched out.


Can you count on Doubront to give you a complete season though? he threw 129 and 131 innings in 2008 and 2009 and 105 last year. He's thrown 20 innings this year and his longest stint has been 4+ innings. He would be asked to make 20+ starts from here on in. if he was to average 5ip per start, he'd be at his all time high in IP and he'd still kill the bullpen. I think he can help, but he is clearly not a solution

#183 Max Power


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:57 PM

It's important to remember the free agent starting pitching class of 2006.

http://www.usatoday....-pitchers_x.htm

Dice doesn't look so bad compared to the rest of those signings. He was better than Zito, Schmidt, Mulder, Loiaza, Weaver, Milwood, and Ryan. Maybe Burnett would have been a better idea, but that's debatable. It was a pretty terrible group overall.

#184 ThatsMyPeskyPole

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 10:59 PM

Meh, disappointing but time to move on and stop wondering or worrying what will happen with his next start.

#185 Tokyo Sox


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 11:08 PM

If I'm interpreting this right, the "treatment" he received in Japan was repeated doses of platelet injection therapy (PTP), which it calls an appropriate measure for the first two weeks. Sounds like he underwent the injections without the club's knowledge or approval, but hopefully someone with better translation abilities can confirm.


It sounds like that is what happened, yes. It doesn't say whether the team knew or not (though I don't know why they'd bother calling it a "personal matter" if they did know), but he spent 2 weeks trying the platelet injection thing, "cell activation", and muscle regeneration treatments, but the end result was that the 2nd diagnosis was the same as the first, and TJ surgery is required. Matsuzaka wouldn't discuss the diagnosis, and a formal & final announcement is expected to be made on June 2nd. (Dog, I think your "2 days" was actually "the 2nd (of June)" mistranslated.)

If he is done with the Sox, I'd call it 50/50 that he goes back to Japan to finish his career.

#186 NomarRS05

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 11:13 PM

How much of this goes back to the last WBC? I remember how upset the Red Sox were over it and he's never quite been able to stay healthy since.

Oh well, if Bartolo Colon can come back at 38 years old throwing in the high 90's I'm sure Dice-K can sustain his career for another decade.

Losing him is certainly not ideal, but part of me is thrilled not to have to watch him start every five days.

#187 patinorange


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Posted 01 June 2011 - 11:32 PM

It's important to remember the free agent starting pitching class of 2006.

http://www.usatoday....-pitchers_x.htm

Dice doesn't look so bad compared to the rest of those signings. He was better than Zito, Schmidt, Mulder, Loiaza, Weaver, Milwood, and Ryan. Maybe Burnett would have been a better idea, but that's debatable. It was a pretty terrible group overall.



The end is not pretty, but a championship in 2007 is probably not possible without Dice K's contributions. It was a solid, calculated risk that paid off. It would have been nice if it had paid some more long term dividends.
That's an interesting list. Let's hope Milwood is not the only replacement option.

#188 Flynn4ever

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 12:39 AM

But, but, what about the marketing opportunities this opened up for Fenway Sports Group?! Think about what it did for the Red Sox brand in East Asia!

It definitely turned Japan from a Mariners/Yankees loving country to a more democratic fan base, but all the caps and T-shirts sold here (and I believe anywhere) are part of a revenue-sharing plan, didn't benefit the Sox' own wallet much. Ironically, it was on a trip to Korea a few years back that I was able to get a cheap Sox jersey because Bung Hole Kim had just been (mercifully) traded by the Sox.

#189 Rasputin


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 12:50 AM

It definitely turned Japan from a Mariners/Yankees loving country to a more democratic fan base, but all the caps and T-shirts sold here (and I believe anywhere) are part of a revenue-sharing plan, didn't benefit the Sox' own wallet much. Ironically, it was on a trip to Korea a few years back that I was able to get a cheap Sox jersey because Bung Hole Kim had just been (mercifully) traded by the Sox.


It still pisses me off that people booed him. I was really disgusted at Red Sox fans that day.

#190 Tokyo Sox


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:03 AM

But, but, what about the marketing opportunities this opened up for Fenway Sports Group?! Think about what it did for the Red Sox brand in East Asia!


Well, I know this post is tongue-in-cheek, but as F4E notes it did do a fair bit. And even if it hadn't, who cares? JWH said from Day 1 that these external potential revenue streams were not a reason for them to sign Daisuke, and that the best way for the Sox to make money off him was for him to win a bunch of games. Certainly on that front the results were mixed, but to your "point", without Daisuke/Oki we do not sign Tazawa (jury will be out for a while on that, but it could be a big positive). Also that Funai deal was for a few million, and I'm sure the Sox did indeed benefit financially from tour packages to & merchandise sales around Fenway by Japanese fans. While that is difficult to quantify, and none of it immediately makes up for the total money we shelled out on Matsuzaka...at the same time it doesn't quite deserve to be dismissed in the way that you've done here.

#191 nvalvo


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:33 AM

I imagine future generations won't hate this deal as much as the modern Sox fan does. 49-30 with a better then league average ERA. He was a solid part of a World Championship team and he won a World Series game and even had a big hit. They should find his periphals oddly fun.

The signing was obviously not a good one. They could have spent the money in much better ways and depending on him hurt a lot over the past 3 seasons.

It was a strange time here from a guy who seems pretty strange. He seemed likable but distant. Even though he made over a 100 starts with the team, it always seemed like you never knew what you were going to get. He was a total mystery.

Weird.


I agree with Sean that it will look better in the future, but I think the present assessment shouldn't be quite that bleak.

The Foulke deal was a terrible overpay if you just look at the regular season, but he was huge in the postseason. Matsuzaka wasn't as huge as Foulke in the postseason, but he threw a lot of quality innings in 2007, and had a decent postseason (and won a ring!), before winning a pile of games in that freakish 2008. Longterm FA deals for pitchers usually go south, but you sign those deals in the hope that it will all come together for a postseason run.

I wish we could have gotten one more good season out of him.

My favorite Matsuzaka start for the Sox was the no-hit bid against the Phillies. My least favorite was one I attended, the meltdown in Oakland.

Edited by nvalvo, 02 June 2011 - 01:34 AM.


#192 PaulinMyrBch


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 05:52 AM

I don't look at this deal as a bad one per se, but one that didn't work out as hoped. To think he wasn't valuable in stretches is crazy, just not consistent enough for us to bitch about others on a message board.

But to me there was value in the FO strategy on the posting fee, both from a standpoint of securing this player and sending certain messages to teams in our similar pay scale that we were capable of being real damn creative when it comes to securing the guys we truly want. The fallout had the Yanks secured him for $20M less of a posting fee (?) would have been historic.

Bottom line medically, the UCL is a wear out the rubber band injury as far as I understand. It's not a failure from a specific pitch or throw. So when you pay the guy the kind of money the Sox did, knowing full well he threw pitch counts and side sessions that made him the poster boy for future TJ surgery, I don't think it was unreasonable for us to expect he follow our off day and preseason routines. I'm sure privately the Sox would admit that if he were allowed to keep doing things his way, he'd end up here.

He's the perfect candidate to pick up velo after the rehab, since its likely he's been pitching with a worn out arm since his high school graduation....He will be an interesting follow 14 months from now.

#193 5dice

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:13 AM

The personal anger from people here is ridiculous and tinged with something that feels just shy of racism. It didn't work out--get over it. MLB is littered with failed plans. The Japanese marketing results don't equal the full value of the contract? And that makes you mad? It was a gamble that a rich, marketing savvy team can make. The posting fee gamble? Gotta go big to have a shot. At the time, most agreed it was ballsy and smart. Be happy you have a team that can take and survive risks like this rather than a small market team that can be crippled for years by a failure on this scale.

#194 EddieYost


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:17 AM

The personal anger from people here is ridiculous and tinged with something that feels just shy of racism. It didn't work out--get over it. MLB is littered with failed plans. The Japanese marketing results don't equal the full value of the contract? And that makes you mad? It was a gamble that a rich, marketing savvy team can make. The posting fee gamble? Gotta go big to have a shot. At the time, most agreed it was ballsy and smart. Be happy you have a team that can take and survive risks like this rather than a small market team that can be crippled for years by a failure on this scale.


Racism? I dunno. SOSH is pretty down on John Lackey too.

#195 Tokyo Sox


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:24 AM

Racism? I dunno. SOSH is pretty down on John Lackey too.


Chin-ism. Can be interpreted as anti-Lackey or anti-Asian.

#196 Doctor G

  • 1832 posts

Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:36 AM

The signing of Matsuzaka also resulted in the Yankees wasting millions of dollars on Igawa.

I wish Daisuke the best with his recovery.
In the end I just wish his hands had been a little bigger.

#197 TheoShmeo


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:40 AM

The personal anger from people here is ridiculous and tinged with something that feels just shy of racism. It didn't work out--get over it. MLB is littered with failed plans. The Japanese marketing results don't equal the full value of the contract? And that makes you mad? It was a gamble that a rich, marketing savvy team can make. The posting fee gamble? Gotta go big to have a shot. At the time, most agreed it was ballsy and smart. Be happy you have a team that can take and survive risks like this rather than a small market team that can be crippled for years by a failure on this scale.

As Eddie wrote, the racism thing is a reach. Yesterday also brought news of Shaq's retirement and I thought his glowing comments about how Boston treated him coincidentally demonstrated that a likable athlete will be embraced by Boston fans regardless of his race or color.

I think the point that people are making with the Daisuke marketing references etc. is that whatever upside the Sox were counting on or even obtained with income streams or edges in recruiting Asian players didn't come close to offsetting the overpay and disappointment over him not meeting the massive expectations.

As to the injury, I have to say that I'm glad this is probably it for him in Boston. He had his moments and, like others, I'm grateful for his role in 2007 (hell, I'm grateful for the limited contributions of Julio Lugo in 2007), but Matsuzaka after 2008 was trick or treat, and mostly trick. He was also one of the more annoying Boston athletes to watch in recent memory given how slow he worked, his penchant for nibbling and the "Five and Dive" quality of many of his wins.

#198 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 06:59 AM

I'm usually not slow to sniff racism, but I never saw much in Sox fans' responses to Dice-K. Yes, there were a few times when cultural stereotypes about the Japanese crept into discussions of his training regimen etc., but for the most part I think people responded to him simply as a pitcher--at first a good one whose stuff made him fun to watch, later an inconsistent one whose lack of command made us tear our hair out.

I don't think you can say it was a bad signing, though it was ultimately a disappointing one. It would be fun to see him come back, whether for us or somebody else.

#199 OttoC


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:16 AM

I can't help but think of his back-to-back one-hitters this year and think of what could have been.

#200 SMU_Sox


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Posted 02 June 2011 - 08:14 AM

Two good years followed by three severely limited by injury. I loved the signing then and while it didn't ultimately pay off given the information we had when we signed him I think it was the right decision. Even in his injury plagued years he would show us flashes of brilliance. He will be back and maybe this time he will dominate. I'm one of the few who enjoyed watching the guy. Part of that is because you never knew how he would approach a given game. Some games would be cutter and fastball dice-k, others changeup and slurve dice-k. I think he will sign with a team in the NL like the Cardinals or in a pitchers park in either the AL or NL on the west coast.




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