299 replies to this topic

[Dogman2]

Per Gammo and Cafardo via Twitter after MRI on Elbow. Bowden is his replacement.

Nothing certain on MRI extent as yet. Link to follow.

MRI Link

Edited by Dogman2, 17 May 2011 - 05:22 PM.

[RedOctober3829]

If it's a long-term injury, do you look outside the organization to pick up a starter? Or is Wakefield going to be sufficient enough going forward?

[Carl Everetts Therapist]

If it's a long-term injury, do you look outside the organization to pick up a starter? Or is Wakefield going to be sufficient enough going forward?

Wakefield can't fill both Lackey and Dice-K's spots in the rotation.

Looks like Aceves might get a chance with Bowden taking his innings out of the pen.

Who else is out there? Gammo mentioned Kevin Millwood and I almost puked in the dugout myself.

I was just scanning the Pawtucket depth chart and I could see Duckworth getting a look..

Edited by Carl Everetts Therapist, 17 May 2011 - 05:00 PM.

[Eric Van]

Well, if we wanted to get a head-to-head comparison between Wakefield and Aceves, we will. It would be desirable to split them up rather than have them pitch back-to-back, since their games will cause the biggest stress on the bullpen. Unfortunately, with no off-days, it will be difficult to do that.

[phragle]

Bowden is his replacement.

Oh, perfect.

[TomRicardo]

If it's a long-term injury, do you look outside the organization to pick up a starter? Or is Wakefield going to be sufficient enough going forward?

Stolmy has been horrendous this season but I suppose you could use him for a spot start if you didn't want to play with the 40.

Honestly I would outright Nava and start Weiland. Weiland has looked pretty good in AAA and will eventually get a chance at Boston's bullpen anyway.

[TheYellowDart5]

Well, on the plus side, at least it's Lackey and Matsuzaka that are hurt. Given how poorly both of them have pitched this year, it's not crushing to have both out.

That said, Wakefield and Aceves in the rotation are going to be a miserable drain on the middle relief of this team, and are really going to put stress on Lester, Beckett and Buchholz to go deep into games. Getting Wheeler and Jenks back healthy and productive would help offset that a lot.

Edited by TheYellowDart5, 17 May 2011 - 05:27 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

Well, on the plus side, at least it's Lackey and Matsuzaka that are hurt. Given how poorly both of them have pitched this year, it's not crushing to have both out.

That said, Wakefield and Aceves in the rotation are going to be a miserable drain on the middle relief of this team.

Which is why it IS crushing to have both Lackey and Matsuzaka out at the same time.

The shame is that Dice-K was showing signs of coming around before the "elbow tweak" game

[phragle]

Stolmy has been horrendous this season but I suppose you could use him for a spot start if you didn't want to play with the 40.

Honestly I would outright Nava and start Weiland. Weiland has looked pretty good in AAA and will eventually get a chance at Boston's bullpen anyway.

Weiland or Duckworth, but I'd rather go with Weiland. It's too bad we don't have Tazawa or Doubront available.

[phragle]

Current FA starters according to MLBTR:

Jeremy Bonderman (28)
Pedro Martinez (39)
Brian Moehler (39)
Ben Sheets (32)
Greg Smith (27)
Jarrod Washburn (36)

[Manramsclan]

Current FA starters according to MLBTR:

Jeremy Bonderman (28)
Pedro Martinez (39)
Brian Moehler (39)
Ben Sheets (32)
Greg Smith (27)
Jarrod Washburn (36)

If we were willing to give up some talent, Wade LeBlanc of the Padres comes to mind. He is currently in AAA.

It would be fairly costly due to the fact that he is a cost controlled lefty who is 26. That said it is realistic in that we could trade someone with a similar profile who is a bit earlier in his developmental curve, but not someone with huge upside like Ranuando. Maybe Stolmy? I'm not saying that he is the right guy but I see the value in trading prospects a year or two away for a young cost-controlled pitcher with experience who could help the major league club right now.

That looks much more attractive to me than that list of dreck (Sorry Pedro)

Edit: Upon further reflection Stolmy is definitely NOT that guy. The point still stands that the Red Sox have a slew of guys who are at least one or two years away for a rotation that needs bolstering NOW. The only defense for the Lackey signing in my opinon is that the FO knew this, and decided to sink money into a horse(face) who could eat innings and pitch at at least league average level until these guys mature. With both him and Dice-K on the DL, that plan is scuttled a bit.

Edited by Manramsclan, 17 May 2011 - 05:52 PM.

[snowmanny]

Wakefield can't fill both Lackey and Dice-K's spots in the rotation.

This is true, but your comment does bring back memories of 1995, when Sox starters Aaron Sele and Vaughn Eshelman went down in consecutive starts in May while Clemens was out. They called up Wakefield from the minors and he in fact did fill both spots through one turn through the rotation, pitching great on a Saturday then again on a Tuesday, saving the team until Clemens returned.

[teddywingman]

Pedro! Pedro! Pedro!

[trekfan55]

It was absolutely worth it to trade him, but maybe Casey Kelly would be getting his shot now?

From the list shown, is anyone in shape to pitch? If it looks like both will be gone fir a long time, the FO might look into signing someone and have him pitch a couple of minor league starts to get in shape.

BTW, it was 2 starts ago that DiceK tweaked his elbow right?

[jacklamabe65]

I second Pedro. See what he has in the tank. He can't be any worse then their other options.

[E5 Yaz]

Ummm, you folks wanting Pedro realize that Lackey and / or Dice-K could be back by the time Pedro would be ready to pitch in the majors

[EddieYost]

Pedro! Pedro! Pedro!

That would be sweet. I am guessing it would take him a while to get ready though.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I second Pedro. See what he has in the tank. He can't be any worse then their other options.

Even assuming that all he'd need to do would be to take a few minor league starts to get himself up to the 80-100 pitch threshold, signing Pedro tomorrow would still leave the Sox with, at minimum 3-4 weeks to fill the 5th spot in the rotation with something. By that time, one of DiceK or Lackey could be back and ready to go.

And frankly it's a pretty big assumption that Pedro, 39 year old Pedro, is in any kind of shape to just pick up a ball and start pitching again, over a year and a half removed from his last time on a big league mound. Pedro's ship has sailed, and it ain't coming back. I think the Sox would be far better off with any of the options in system (Aceves, Weiland, Duckworth, Doubront) than the shell of a legend.

[Sprowl]

The Red Sox' starting staff has taken a hit, but the team has a deep bullpen. It's comical to think that Aceves, Atchison, Bowden, Hill and Okajima were all in the minors last month, waiting for injuries to open up an opportunity. Now Lackey, Matsuzaka, Jenks and Wheeler each have "injuries," although Matsuzaka's sounds like the most serious. Wheeler and Jenks should be ready again very soon, since theirs were injuries of suckage.

Aceves and Wakefield should each be good for 4-5 innings, with Bowden available for 3-inning stints in long relief. Every other team in baseball would look at Red Sox pitching depth with a twinge of envy.

current bullpen:

Bard: relief ace
Papelbon: closer
Okajima: all-purpose lefty
Hill: loogy or LRL
Atchison: roogy or long relief
Bowden: long relief

It's not quite the knockout bullpen original planned, since Jenks hasn't harnessed his stuff and Bard seems intent on causing coronaries among the game threaders.

[jon abbey]

Carlos Silva is starting in AAA for NY on Thursday, we'll be happy to trade him for Iglesias.

[Sprowl]

BTW, it was 2 starts ago that DiceK tweaked his elbow right?

April 29 in Seattle, following the two one-hitters. Since then there have been two starts and one doomed relief appearance.

[trekfan55]

April 29 in Seattle, following the two one-hitters. Since then there have been two starts and one doomed relief appearance.

It was longer than I thought. So was he pitching through an injury? He might have made it worse.

[Noah]

current bullpen:

Bard: relief ace
Papelbon: closer
Okajima: all-purpose lefty
Hill: loogy or LRL
Atchison: roogy or long relief
Bowden: long relief

And Matt Albers.

[Harry Hooper]

although Matsuzaka's sounds like the most serious.

The odd thing about the elbow MRI report was DM's breaking pitches were his best stuff last night.


BTW, you left Albers off your bullpen list, but that kind of reinforces your main point.

[TheYellowDart5]

Pedro Martinez was chucking an 88 mph fastball in 2009 with the Phillies. Unless he's seen Colon's ass-fat man recently, there's almost no way he'd be an effective pitcher in the AL, and especially the AL East, with such a depleted pitch.

[Eric Van]

Weiland or Duckworth, but I'd rather go with Weiland. It's too bad we don't have Tazawa or Doubront available.

Kris Johnson was just released, which means that Doubront, who was only expected to miss 1-2 starts, will be starting Friday. He could then take Aceves' presumed second start.

The rainout allows them to split up Wakefield and Aceves.

Wed 5/18 vs Det: Buchholz vs LHP
Thu 5/19 vs Det: Beckett
Fri 5/20 vs ChN: Wakefield vs LHP
Sat 5/21 vs ChN: Lester (5)
Sun 5/22 vs ChN: Aceves
Mon 5/23 at Cle: Buchholz
Tue 5/23 at Cle: Beckett
Wed 5/24 at Cle: Wakefield or Doubront (day game after night)
Thu 5/25 at Det: Lester
Fri 5/26 at Det: Aceves, Wakefield (6), or Doubront (6)
Sat 5/27 at Det: Buchholz vs LHP
Sun 5/28 at Det: Beckett

or (better for the catchers, Wakefield probably matches up better vs the Tigers than the Cubs -- but less flexibility and Beckett has already been announced for Thursday)

Wed 5/18 vs Det: Buchholz vs LHP
Thu 5/19 vs Det: Wakefield
Fri 5/20 vs ChN: Beckett vs LHP
Sat 5/21 vs ChN: Lester (5)
Sun 5/22 vs ChN: Aceves
Mon 5/23 at Cle: Buchholz
Tue 5/23 at Cle: Wakefield
Wed 5/24 at Cle: Beckett (day game after night game)
Thu 5/25 at Det: Lester
Fri 5/26 at Det: Aceves or Doubront (6)
Sat 5/27 at Det: Buchholz vs LHP
Sun 5/28 at Det: Wakefield or Aceves (6)

[bsj]

I'd actually take Washburn, as he was still pretty darn effective last year. BUT...he retired by his own volition and I dont see coming back.

[Sprowl]

And Matt Albers.

The odd thing about the elbow MRI report was DM's breaking pitches were his best stuff last night.

BTW, you left Albers off your bullpen list, but that kind of reinforces your main point.

Whoops -- I should have known the bullpen list looked too short.

Revised bullpen:

Bard: relief ace
Papelbon: closer
Albers: groundballs, or all-purpose righty
Okajima: all-purpose lefty
Hill: loogy or LRL
Atchison: roogy or long relief
Bowden: long relief

Given that Aceves isn't stretched out fully, and the probability of a Bad Wake, it's just as well that every current reliever has shown the ability to go multiple innings. As soon as one of them mops up a blowout, he gets sent down to Pawtucket and replaced by Wheeler. The next one gets replaced by Jenks. Rinse with a 2-week stint in the minors, recall, and repeat ad lib.

[jon abbey]

I'd actually take Washburn, as he was still pretty darn effective last year. BUT...he retired by his own volition and I dont see coming back.

That was actually 2009, and he was horrendous after being traded for SEA to DET at the trading deadline.

[E5 Yaz]

Wednesday vs. Detroit: Clay Buchholz

Thursday vs. Detroit: Josh Beckett

Friday vs. Chicago: Jon Lester

Saturday vs. Chicago: Alfredo Aceves

Sunday vs. Chicago: Tim Wakefield

Francona, by way of Globe

[bsj]

That was actually 2009, and he was horrendous after being traded for SEA to DET at the trading deadline.

I stand corrected. Time warp apparently...

[Plympton91]

Not to be a broken record today, but I'm not dreading Aceves as a starter at all. He's started 9 games in AAA, going 67.1 IP, 60 H, 18 BB, and 60 K; he started 5 games for the Yankees, averaging more than 5 innings a start with a 3.42 ERA and a 1.25 WHIP. That's pretty darn good, actually. He's prone to the home run ball as a starter, but as long as the walks stay down that shouldn't hurt him much.

Plus, you're basically replacing him in the bullpen with Jenks at this point. No loss there either.

[chrisfont9]

I read some baseless speculation recently (Heyman?) that the Braves would like to pass on Derek Lowe's salary. Obviously they would want blue chips in return, so on that end of things it depends. But if we need long-term help, we know the guy can pitch.

[Kramerica Industries]

I read some baseless speculation recently (Heyman?) that the Braves would like to pass on Derek Lowe's salary. Obviously they would want blue chips in return, so on that end of things it depends. But if we need long-term help, we know the guy can pitch.

FWIW:

There has been some speculation about the Braves trading Derek Lowe, but they have no interest in that; he's pitched very well for them.

http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/70249799684857856

The only option, right now, has to be in-house. There's not going to be much out there on May 17th that's going to better that what you already have. Weather the storm.

Or Vin Mazzaro might be avialable

[Plympton91]

So, it appears that after the Red Sox convinced Daisuke to change his throwing program, he had a streak of several good starts and then seriously hurt his elbow. Coincidence? Elbow injury was there all along and just kept getting a little worse? Not good for a team and player who disagreed about preparation so publicly for such a long period to have this happen.

[PrometheusWakefield]

Pedro Martinez was chucking an 88 mph fastball in 2009 with the Phillies. Unless he's seen Colon's ass-fat man recently, there's almost no way he'd be an effective pitcher in the AL, and especially the AL East, with such a depleted pitch.

And he still struck out 7.46 batters per 9 innings, while walking 1.61. He's perfectly capable of being a good to very good starter at 88.

[TheYellowDart5]

And he still struck out 7.46 batters per 9 innings, while walking 1.61. He's perfectly capable of being a good to very good starter at 88.

In the National League. Color me skeptical that he can replicate those results in a much tougher pitcher's environment after a year-plus on the sidelines.

[Rudy Pemberton]

So, it appears that after the Red Sox convinced Daisuke to change his throwing program, he had a streak of several good starts and then seriously hurt his elbow. Coincidence? Elbow injury was there all along and just kept getting a little worse? Not good for a team and player who disagreed about preparation so publicly for such a long period to have this happen.

He's been hurt every year since his rookie season. He had a lot of mileage on his arm when the Sox got him, this is probably just the cumulative effect.

I'm not sure why folks are so worried about Aceves, he's a pain in the ass but has been an effective pitcher throughout his pro career. It's not as if the bar is real high here; Dice-K was averaging just over 5 innings a start; with a BB rate of 5.5. Aceves should be able to replace that fairly easily.

It always sucks to lose depth, but the Sox lost the two most replaceable starters on the roster. These guys have combined to go 5-8 with a 6.69 ERA. 41 BB and 46 K in 76 2/3 IP. That's terrible.

[Al Zarilla]

I'm not sure why folks are so worried about Aceves, he's a pain in the ass but has been an effective pitcher throughout his pro career.

He's a pain in the ass how? I've barely seen him pitch.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Well, he's got a reputation as being stubborn and a pain in the ass, as a teammate. It's supposedly part of the reason the Yankees let him go, he thinks he's a much better player than he is. Some would just call that confidence, I guess. Who knows whether it's true or not, but it seems irrelevant to me. The guy has a limited pro record in the US, but it's all good.

[Al Zarilla]

Well, he's got a reputation as being stubborn and a pain in the ass, as a teammate. It's supposedly part of the reason the Yankees let him go, he thinks he's a much better player than he is. Some would just call that confidence, I guess. Who knows whether it's true or not, but it seems irrelevant to me. The guy has a limited pro record in the US, but it's all good.

Sounds something like Jonathan Sanchez of the Giants, who is too good to give up on in spite of the rocks in his head. But, Sanchez seems to be growing up little by little. Maybe Aceves can also.

[teddywingman]

admittedly, I refuse to be rational about the return of Pedro. But does anyone know anything about what he's been up to?

He talked about making a comeback. Would he talk about it if he wasn't serious about it? (don't answer that)

In my dream he's down in the Dominican, stretching himself out against the national team in some hidden facility. Theo gets a call and sends down the scouts. "He's ready," they say. And the rest is history.

John Lackey is never seen on the Fenway mound again and Pedro gets through one more season on intelligence and grit.

[Rasputin]

admittedly, I refuse to be rational about the return of Pedro. But does anyone know anything about what he's been up to?

He talked about making a comeback. Would he talk about it if he wasn't serious about it? (don't answer that)

In my dream he's down in the Dominican, stretching himself out against the national team in some hidden facility. Theo gets a call and sends down the scouts. "He's ready," they say. And the rest is history.

John Lackey is never seen on the Fenway mound again and Pedro gets through one more season on intelligence and grit.

I would say this belongs in the RSN depository but I am far too fond of it for that.

[Doug Beerabelli]

I know it might take awhile for him to get prepared, but how about Andy PettiTTe? We can sign Posada for the league minimum to catch him.

[Doug Beerabelli]

Yes, I'm kidding.

[PandaSox]

According to the Globe, Matsuzaka has "a sprained elbow, which likely means there is some degree of ligament tearing." He will be shut down indefinitely.

Lackey is just fine, apparently - he will be eligible to return as early as May 27. Tito even called it "precautionary," and it sounds like more of a mental break than a physical issue.

My thoughts on the Matsuzaka injury - he has a very "old" arm for a 30 yo pitcher, and has never had Tommy John surgery. Given the extremely high number of pitches thrown, do you think it's possible that his UCL is damaged/frayed/torn? If so, Tommy John surgery might be in the near future.

[Eric Van]

Kris Johnson was just released, which means that Doubront, who was only expected to miss 1-2 starts, will be starting Friday.

Maybe not -- they also promoted Miguel Gonzalez to Pawtucket and he looks likely to take that start on 5 days rest.

[mfried]

Francona, by way of Globe

According to the announced pitching sequence, Varitek definitely catches Beckett, Salty will certainly catch Wake, who will catch Aceves (this could be a matchup with the opposing pitcher)? In some ways the present rotation might give Francona more flexibility in the receiving department.

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

admittedly, I refuse to be rational about the return of Pedro. But does anyone know anything about what he's been up to?

He talked about making a comeback. Would he talk about it if he wasn't serious about it? (don't answer that)

In my dream he's down in the Dominican, stretching himself out against the national team in some hidden facility. Theo gets a call and sends down the scouts. "He's ready," they say. And the rest is history.

John Lackey is never seen on the Fenway mound again and Pedro gets through one more season on intelligence and grit.

Pretending for a moment that this is a serious proposal, Pedro looks ready to announce his retirement.

[bosockboy]

If Dice-K is done for the year, I could see Theo going after Buehrle in a month or so. The White Sox are dead and Theo pushed pretty hard for him in 2007 before he re-upped with Chicago.

He'd be a perfect 4.00 ERA-ish innings eater to fill out the rotation.