255 replies to this topic

[Trlicek's Whip]

It's not all negative - Posada's hot streak has helped re-lengthen the Yankees lineup. Jorge, Gardner, and even glimmers of Swisher not being automatic outs in the lineup is a benefit.

Guy goes on a hot streak and you manage to spin it into a thoroughly negative thing. Don't ever change.

Of course, when guy goes on a hot streak and his name is Francisco Cervelli and it's 2010, he's proclaimed the second coming of Johnny Bench and Joe Mauer's love child on these very same boards. Obviously there's middle ground, but we are talking about an ancient catcher that can't catch anymore and took all the suckitude out of the word "suck" before he removing himself from the lineup.

Somewhere between Posada's first 100 AB's and the singles-hitting, BABIP-fueled renaissance over his past 55 AB's is possibly a new expected level of performance. Is Posada returning to old form? Maybe. But is not hitting for power over this same span SSS talking or are we seeing Posada 2.0? No idea, but mentioning that he's a singles hitter while on this tear isn't irrelevant to the discussion of what Posada is as a hitter now.

Edited by Trlicek's Whip, 13 June 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[cromulence]

It's not all negative - Posada's average climb has helped re-lengthen the Yankees lineup and their run-scoring machine. Jorge, Gardner, and even glimmers of Swisher recently no longer being automatic outs in the lineup is a benefit.


Of course, when guy goes on a hot streak and his name is Francisco Cervelli and it's 2010, he's proclaimed the second coming of Johnny Bench and Joe Mauer's love child on these very same boards. Obviously there's middle ground, but we are talking about an ancient catcher that can't catch anymore and took all the suckitude out of the word "suck" before he removing himself from the lineup.

Somewhere between Posada's first 100 AB's and the singles-hitting, BABIP-fueled renaissance over his past 55 AB's is possibly a new expected level of performance. Is Posada returning to old form? Maybe. But is not hitting for power over this same span SSS talking or are we seeing Posada 2.0? No idea, but mentioning that he's a singles hitter while on this tear isn't irrelevant to the discussion.

Whoa there. I'm a Cervelli hater. Don't go assuming all Yankees fans are idiots. There are few things more deflating in life than realizing Cervelli is up.

I don't think anyone expects Jorge to continue at his current pace all season; however, it gives hope that he can at least be adequate instead of abysmal. I'll take a singles hitter over a black hole.

[EvilEmpire]

Of course, when guy goes on a hot streak and his name is Francisco Cervelli and it's 2010, he's proclaimed the second coming of Johnny Bench and Joe Mauer's love child on these very same boards.

When did this happen? From what I can recall, Cervelli has mostly been described around here as something between adequate enough to get the job done in the short term and lousy. That said, I've been gone a lot over the last three years with deployments. I'd love to see an impassioned defense of Cervelli as an up-and-coming elite catcher. Link?

[glennhoffmania]

The truth is definitely somewhere in the middle. Here are his LD/GB/FB percentages by month:

April: 11.5/44.2/44.2
May: 16.7/52.1/31.3
June: 30.8/38.5/30.8

So he definitely seems to be making better contact in the last 12 days. Also, his K rate is down to 10.7 in June after it was 25 in May, however his BB rate has gone from 15.8 to 6.5.

His BABIP is a ridiculous .538 in June after a .292 clip in May.

There's zero chance he keeps up this pace, but he also doesn't seem to be nearly as cooked as he was in April and May. Of course, SSS, blah blah blah.

[jon abbey]

I think that pointing out Posada's lack of power (no HRs since April) is quite relevant for a DH. It's great to see him cutting and slashing singles again, but it's still not really acceptable for a fulltime DH.

[rembrat]

DHs are hitting .265/.343/.415 as of today. I'd like to see those numbers without Ortiz' though. Bad year for DHs.

[Trlicek's Whip]

Power in MLB is down this year. It says something that that NYY is leading the league in HR's without Posada and Swisher mashing like they did last year. Tex and Granderson's respective big numbers, and A-Rod's "bounce back" to what we'd expect from him are really making up the difference for the 2011 team.

[Trlicek's Whip]

When did this happen? From what I can recall, Cervelli has mostly been described around here as something between adequate enough to get the job done in the short term and lousy. That said, I've been gone a lot over the last three years with deployments. I'd love to see an impassioned defense of Cervelli as an up-and-coming elite catcher. Link?

Some of the thoughts in the Cervelli 2010 thread could be read as Yankee-colored glasses and gleeful SSS, but your assessment of fair-to-middling vs. meh rings true after a re-read.

Edited by Trlicek's Whip, 13 June 2011 - 07:08 PM.

[jon abbey]

He's got to be running out of chances at this point, Montero nipping at his heels.

I don't think they would DFA him with two months to go on the last year of his deal (and probably career), but I do think they might go to him and say "accept this phantom DL assignment and we'll bring you back when rosters expand and you'll have a chance to fight for a postseason roster spot, otherwise we will DFA you".

[h8mfy]

He's got to be running out of chances at this point, Montero nipping at his heels.

I don't think they would DFA him with two months to go on the last year of his deal (and probably career), but I do think they might go to him and say "accept this phantom DL assignment and we'll bring you back when rosters expand and you'll have a chance to fight for a postseason roster spot, otherwise we will DFA you".

Jorge may not agree tht this is the last few months of his career

http://www.boston.co...play_next_year/

[E5 Yaz]

A two-year, $20M deal with a third year player option seems a win-win for Posada and the Yankees

[Doug Beerabelli]

A two-year, $20M deal with a third year player option seems a win-win for Posada and the Yankees

and a win for the Sox.

[wutang112878]

A two-year, $20M deal with a third year player option seems a win-win for Posada and the Yankees

Posada star has fallen and was never in the Jeter category. I cant see the Tampa braintrust giving him a 2 year deal, let alone for that money. He is a catcher they dont let catch, and this season he hasnt been able to hit. How is that worth $10M per?

[ThePrideofShiner]

I'm guessing Yaz was joking.

Anyway, Posada said he wants to play next year. He can come back to the Yankees as a pinch hitter or go somewhere to be a what exactly? A pinch hitter? His numbers are terrible. No one is going to give him a DH job.

[worm0082]

My guess is they would offer him a non guaranteed spring invite to save face (like Bernie Williams) , and he will turn it down. But unlike Bernie I can see him going somewhere for a year on a short money 1 yr deal. Which would be stupid and tarnish his "legacy". Who wants to see a season of Posada backing up catching the Orioles?

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

My guess is they would offer him a non guaranteed spring invite to save face (like Bernie Williams) , and he will turn it down. But unlike Bernie I can see him going somewhere for a year on a short money 1 yr deal. Which would be stupid and tarnish his "legacy". Who wants to see a season of Posada backing up catching the Orioles?

Did Dwight Evans' last year playing for the O's tarnish his Sox legacy? Did Louie Tiant leaving the Sox to go pitch for the Yankees tarnish his Sox legacy?

Posada going somewhere else and hanging on for another year or two isn't going to diminish his Yankee legacy. How could it?

[joe dokes]

Did Dwight Evans' last year playing for the O's tarnish his Sox legacy? Did Louie Tiant leaving the Sox to go pitch for the Yankees tarnish his Sox legacy?

Posada going somewhere else and hanging on for another year or two isn't going to diminish his Yankee legacy. How could it?

Because Billy Crystal's bitter tears could tarnish diamonds.

[Spacemans Bong]

He won't tarnish his legacy, but it would be sad to see him lie to himself to the point he plays somewhere else. If he decides to play one more year it's 50-50 whether he makes it through an entire season.

[TheoShmeo]

Did Dwight Evans' last year playing for the O's tarnish his Sox legacy? Did Louie Tiant leaving the Sox to go pitch for the Yankees tarnish his Sox legacy?

Posada going somewhere else and hanging on for another year or two isn't going to diminish his Yankee legacy. How could it?

I agree that Posada will not damage his legacy long term if he finishes off his career on a team other than the Yankees. Still, I think the fact that Posada won 4 titles with that team puts him in a different category than guys like Tiant and Evans, and that his leaving for the Os or Sox would have a greater affect on the Yankee fanbase than the departures of Evans and Tiant had on Sox fans.

Then again, given Posada's diminished play, some of the more hard boiled Yankees fans would probably love to see him in a Boston uniform.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

He won't tarnish his legacy, but it would be sad to see him lie to himself to the point he plays somewhere else. If he decides to play one more year it's 50-50 whether he makes it through an entire season.

That's his decision, isn't it? I would think Posada would have earned himself the right to end his career in the way he sees fit by this point in time.

[terrynever]

Posada pulled a Manny last night, looking at three strikes to end the game. Difference is, Jorge just couldn't pull the trigger. As a Yankee fan, I wish they would release him right now. Screw him and his Yankee legacy. Phil Rizzuto got released in August of 1956. Babe Ruth was traded to the Boston Braves in February, 1935, for one dollar.

I hope Jorge doesn't think he's going to be on the postseason roster because last night's Sphinx-like AB should have sealed the deal in that area. If he wants to play somewhere next year, that's his business. Yogi played a few games for the Mets in 1965. Who cares? Who remembers?

Also, Bernie got invited back in 2006 and hit reasonably well. In 2007, Cashman played hardball and Bernie never came to camp. That was one of the real signs to Torre that his days as manager were over.

Edited by terrynever, 18 August 2011 - 09:23 AM.

[jon abbey]

Posada pulled a Manny last night, looking at three strikes to end the game. Difference is, Jorge just couldn't pull the trigger.

No, the difference is the Manny ones were in the strike zone and only one of the three to Posada was. He still should have swung at the last one, but brutal umpiring in that situation, especially after Soria had just walked the ballpark.

[TheoShmeo]

No, the difference is the Manny ones were in the strike zone and only one of the three to Posada was. He still should have swung at the last one, but brutal umpiring in that situation, especially after Soria had just walked the ballpark.

There were several differences. Manny's at bat was in the 8th inning and was not the Sox last chance. The pitcher was the great Rivera as opposed to a struggling Soria. And while it certainly appeared that Manny had no intention of swinging, who the hell knows what Manny was ever thinking.

Last night reminded me of Beltran against the Cardinals. There was no thought in either case that the failure to swing was deliberate and, at the same time, letting a pitch that is even close to the strike zone go by with two strikes and two outs in the 9th is inexplicable.

[terrynever]

Didn't mean to imply it was deliberate. I just thought Posada couldn't pull the trigger on strike three. If his value to the Yankees in the postseason is as a pinch-hitter or part-time DH, does his lack of success in these two departments mean anything when it comes to making up the postseason roster?

And Jon, I don't factor in bad calls by the umps. If you're hitting and the ump screws you on a 1-0 pitch, then you forget about it and get ready for the next pitch. Soria made a great pitch for strike three. Jorge took it and walked away.

[Bob420]

That pitch to Posada seemed pretty outside, so did the one to Swisher and Cano.

[Spacemans Bong]

That's his decision, isn't it? I would think Posada would have earned himself the right to end his career in the way he sees fit by this point in time.

I guess, but is he really going to look back fondly on 64 games and 122 ABs with the Orioles where he hit .157 and go "Boy, I'm sure glad I ended it on my terms and not Brian Cashman's!"?

Edited by Spacemans Bong, 18 August 2011 - 05:33 PM.

[gammoseditor]

He just turned 40, can't hit, and can't catch, or play anywhere else in the field. Why would anyone sign him next year even if he does still want to play? I'm going to be amazed if he gets AB's in the playoffs for the yankees. They'd be better off DHing Eduardo Nunez.

[cromulence]

Still, I think the fact that Posada won 4 titles with that team puts him in a different category than guys like Tiant and Evans, and that his leaving for the Os or Sox would have a greater affect on the Yankee fanbase than the departures of Evans and Tiant had on Sox fans.

Five titles. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think Jorge will retire once he sees that there's very little demand out there for him. Why pay him to be your DH when he's shown this year that it's not something he's good at? Then again, he still seems to have that irrational athlete confidence this season even as his skills have sharply declined, so who knows what he'll do. It definitely wouldn't tarnish his legacy IMO, but it would be a strange feeling to see him toiling on the Indians or something.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I guess, but is he really going to look back fondly on 64 games and 122 ABs with the Orioles where he hit .157 and go "Boy, I'm sure glad I ended it on my terms and not Brian Cashman's!"?

I suspect he's going to try to end his time in baseball when he makes the decision, not Cashman or anyone else.

[jon abbey]

Five titles. Sorry, couldn't resist.

He only had 15 ABs during the year in 1996 and I'm pretty sure he wasn't on the postseason roster (Girardi/Leyritz), so that fifth one is dubious at best.

[cromulence]

He only had 15 ABs during the year in 1996 and I'm pretty sure he wasn't on the postseason roster (Girardi/Leyritz), so that fifth one is dubious at best.

A ring is a ring. Granted, Girardi and Leyritz had way more to do with it than him. I still consider him a 5 time champ, just maybe not quite on the same level as Jeter, Mo, or Pettitte when it comes to contributions in all five.

Edited by cromulence, 19 August 2011 - 09:29 AM.

[Average Reds]

A ring is a ring. Granted, Girardi and Leyritz had way more to do with it than him. I still consider him a 5 time champ, just maybe not quite on the same level as Jeter, Mo, or Pettitte when it comes to contributions in all five.

He was a September call up in 1996 and saw limited action in 8 games. You're free to think of him however, you want, but you're making a huge assumption if you think he has a ring for that year.

[cromulence]

He was a September call up in 1996 and saw limited action in 8 games. You're free to think of him however, you want, but you're making a huge assumption if you think he has a ring for that year.

I definitely do not know for sure, but isn't it usually that anyone who played on the team gets a ring? Even guys who don't finish the year with the team. I realize with the Sox in 2004 it was a special case, but I know that anyone and everyone involved with that team got a ring. I would assume Posada has one but I could be wrong.

[brs3]

In this instance, I think Posada spending a year or two elsewhere in the AL would probably improve his legacy as a member of the MFY. Say he rolls into town as a member of the Indians. Do you really think MFY fans won't give him a standing O? He'll have a .123 batting average and he'll get a standing O from a MFY crowd. That's the only way he'll get a standing O next season, so there are certainly worse things than him signing elsewhere, as far as his 'legacy' is concerned.

[TheoShmeo]

I definitely do not know for sure, but isn't it usually that anyone who played on the team gets a ring? Even guys who don't finish the year with the team. I realize with the Sox in 2004 it was a special case, but I know that anyone and everyone involved with that team got a ring. I would assume Posada has one but I could be wrong.

Of course, whether he has three, four or five rings is irrelevant to the point I was making. For that purpose, Posada, as a repeated MFY champ, is in a different category than players who never won one title, in my view.

As to your specific point, whether Posada has four or five rings, he was an integral part of four Yankee champions. He might have a ring from 1996 (and he might not), but he wont be remembered as a five time champion by most fans, I suspect. (Unless, of course, the Yankees manage to win a title in 2011. ).

[kneemoe]

Of course, whether he has three, four or five rings is irrelevant to the point I was making. For that purpose, Posada, as a repeated MFY champ, is in a different category than players who never won one title, in my view.

As to your specific point, whether Posada has four or five rings, he was an integral part of four Yankee champions. He might have a ring from 1996 (and he might not), but he wont be remembered as a five time champion by most fans, I suspect. (Unless, of course, the Yankees manage to win a title in 2011. ).

I doubt he'd be seen as contributing to that one either.

[cromulence]

Of course, whether he has three, four or five rings is irrelevant to the point I was making. For that purpose, Posada, as a repeated MFY champ, is in a different category than players who never won one title, in my view.

As to your specific point, whether Posada has four or five rings, he was an integral part of four Yankee champions. He might have a ring from 1996 (and he might not), but he wont be remembered as a five time champion by most fans, I suspect. (Unless, of course, the Yankees manage to win a title in 2011. ).

Yeah I see what you meant; didn't mean to derail the thread over a ring count. I actually disagree; I'd say most Yankee fans lump him in with the "dynasty", especially after all the "Core Four" stuff the last couple years. But you're right, he really contributed to four.

[terrynever]

Yeah I see what you meant; didn't mean to derail the thread over a ring count. I actually disagree; I'd say most Yankee fans lump him in with the "dynasty", especially after all the "Core Four" stuff the last couple years. But you're right, he really contributed to four.

Posada earned five rings. Christ, they hand out World Series rings to people who get traded halfway through a championship season. Doesn't Nomar have one? Jorgie has five and he earned five.

[jon abbey]

Posada earned five rings. Christ, they hand out World Series rings to people who get traded halfway through a championship season. Doesn't Nomar have one? Jorgie has five and he earned five.

No, he earned four, come on. He had about as much to do with 1996 as I did.

Part of me wants to say that he could be a competent backup C for the Mets or someone, but then I remember how dreadful he was on D.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why argue over whether he "earned" a 5th? This isn't Phil Seibel or Abe Alvarez we're talking about here. It's OK if Posada has 5 rings to his name no matter the level of contribution to one of them. Hasn't he done enough for you people?

[jon abbey]

Sure, but to me the point is that he's had an awesome career and was a big part of four WS winning teams and numerous other editions that made the playoffs and didn't win it all.

But he had about as much to do with 1996 as he did with 1978 or 1927, whether he got a ring or not. 1996 isn't and shouldn't be part of his legacy, he has plenty without that to be proud of.

[terrynever]

Sure, but to me the point is that he's had an awesome career and was a big part of four WS winning teams and numerous other editions that made the playoffs and didn't win it all.

But he had about as much to do with 1996 as he did with 1978 or 1927, whether he got a ring or not. 1996 isn't and shouldn't be part of his legacy, he has plenty without that to be proud of.

Posada was around that 1996 team in spring training and September. In fact, 1996 marks the beginning of his relationship with Girardi. Remember, Girardi was the catcher Torre and Zimmer brought in to replace defensively-flawed Mike Stanley, a key member of the 1994-95 teams. Jorgie was the raw catcher who could swing a bat. I wonder how they got along back then? Did Girardi "mentor" Posada? Or was that Torre's job?

[jon abbey]

You could even make something of an argument that if Posada was on the 1996 WS roster, NY loses instead of wins. Leyritz was the backup C and of course had the Series-changing 3 run blast off Wohlers in game 4.

http://www.baseball-...199610230.shtml

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

You guys are crazy. Like it or not he's got 5 rings. Go ahead and just live with it. Sheesh.

[jon abbey]

http://bleacherrepor...d-series-titles

[terrynever]

http://bleacherrepor...d-series-titles

Who's Perry Arnold, the writer of that piece?

Answer: 58 years old, married, three children, three grandchildren. Can't remember when I didn't love sports and NY Yankees. Remember as a kid watching Sunday afternoon baseball with my Grandad. Played baseball through college, coached some, now just a fan. Live too far away to get to many games live, but have traveled to New York, Cincinnati and Chicago to see Yankees play. Love to go to minor league games and get MLB on Direct TV to see as many games as possible. Read everything I can on the Web including New York newspapers to follow Yankees. As a kid was a huge NFL fan and sort of lost interest, but have picked it up some in last few years because my wife is a huge Colts fan. Enjoy college basketball. Can't stand NBA. No interest in hockey or NASCAR.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Bleacher Report = Automatic fail.

[SumnerH]

You guys are crazy. Like it or not he's got 5 rings. Go ahead and just live with it. Sheesh.

Wikipedia can clear this up!!!!

Posada has also been a member of four World Series championship teams (1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2009)

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ah, the hive mind at work.

[terrynever]

Bleacher Report = Automatic fail.

Red Sox28 turned down a job offer from BR. Said it was beneath him.