218 replies to this topic

[Plympton91]

You're anti-fun.

Why do you hate America?

Sign me up for no fun too.

I hope they end up with 2 5th seeds from small markets in the championship round of the post-season tournament (formerly known as the world series) and draw the all-time worst ratings for such a TV event of any major sport. This whole 5th place team process is an abomination, and this new round of assholery makes it even more so.

[Rasputin]

Sign me up for no fun too.

I hope they end up with 2 5th seeds from small markets in the championship round of the post-season tournament (formerly known as the world series) and draw the all-time worst ratings for such a TV event of any major sport. This whole 5th place team process is an abomination, and this new round of assholery makes it even more so.

The fifth seed in the AL this year is exceptionally likely to be one of Anaheim, Texas, New York, Boston, or Tampa. It's a lot less clear in the NL but could very easily be any one of Atlanta, Philadelphia, Miami, or Washington. Hell, at the moment, I think the 5th seed would be the Mets. What's the most boring matchup there, Atlanta and Texas? Atlanta and Tampa?

[glennhoffmania]

Sign me up for no fun too.

I hope they end up with 2 5th seeds from small markets in the championship round of the post-season tournament (formerly known as the world series) and draw the all-time worst ratings for such a TV event of any major sport. This whole 5th place team process is an abomination, and this new round of assholery makes it even more so.

Mark the date. I agree with P91 100%. Who gives a shit if the 5th seed is Anaheim, Texas, NY, Boston or Tampa? The playoff system is now a joke. I can't wait until the NBA and the NHL add an extra round of the playoffs that consists of a one game rat tail. Think of how much more excitement it'll generate!!1!11!!

[Saby]

Mark the date. I agree with P91 100%. Who gives a shit if the 5th seed is Anaheim, Texas, NY, Boston or Tampa? The playoff system is now a joke. I can't wait until the NBA and the NHL add an extra round of the playoffs that consists of a one game rat tail. Think of how much more excitement it'll generate!!1!11!!

Umm, so now it's a joke when, for the first time in years, winning the division matters?

[getfoul]

I go back and forth with this. I'd love to see no divisions and a close-to-balanced schedule. I know it's fair.

But the new format they have legitimizes winning your own division, even if divisions aren't all built equally.

Life isn't fair. Neither is baseball.

[glennhoffmania]

Umm, so now it's a joke when, for the first time in years, winning the division matters?

Winning the division has always mattered. It guarantees you a playoff spot and HFA at least over the WC. But if that was really the primary concern, there are solutions that are far more logical than this abortion of a playoff system. When was the last time that a non-football playoff series was one game?

[Fishercat]

Does any other sport, except football, really legitimize winning the division any better than baseball did before this change? This annoys me about the divisions mattering argument. Winning the division in baseball has meant about the same thing as winning your hockey or basketball division (and honestly, probably more since so few WCs made it into the playoffs in the first place). We don't see the NHL having it's 4-8 seeds facing the 9-13 seeds in a single-game playoff to make it in, and I don't see many people clamoring for even an 8 v. 9 play-in. Sure, Florida won their division and automatically got a higher seed over the Devils. Does a team who had a -24 goal differential and a 38-26-18 record really deserve more of an award for winning their poor division over the Devils (who I guess would face the Jets on a one-game play-in to even make it) who had eight more points and a +19 goal differential?

Also, just for fun, if the playoffs started today, this is what the set-up would be.

1. Baltimore (27-15)
2. Texas (26-16)
3. Cleveland (23-18)
4. Tampa Bay (25-17)
5. Toronto (23-19)

So basically, TOR would play TB in Tampa in a one game playoff despite Tampa having a better record than Cleveland. If TOR wins, they have to fly home (farther than Baltimore will have to travel if they end at home) to play two games v. BAL, before going back to BAL. Baltimore only faces the worst team if Toronto wins, not Tampa. Texas and Cleveland would also play.

Also, record wise, the 1, 3, 5, 6, and 10 teams are all in the ALE. The ALC is 4, 8, 9, 13, 14. The ALW is 2, 7, 11, 12.

The NLE is similarly stacked: 2, 3, 5, 6, 9 and presents the same scenario: WAS and either NYM/MIA have to play in WAS, and then LAD has to travel cross-country to play either of those teams. Great draw for the #1 seed.

But the issue in saying that it legitimizes winning a division is that, realistically, at least three ALE teams would probably be winning the AL Central right now, and with how the Red Sox have done against the Central, they might be as well (probably the Yankees too). You're really emphasizing something that doesn't need to be emphasized. Teams in good divisions are punished enough by their record deflation.

Edited by Fishercat, 21 May 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Plympton91]

Umm, so now it's a joke when, for the first time in years, winning the division matters?

Why should winning your division matter more than having the second-best record in the league? The validity of the wild card is that it ensures, in a system where more than one team makes the playoffs, that the second best team is included regardless of any accidents of geography. There is no such justification for including a second wild card team, and also no justification for preferencing a "Division winner" over a wild-card team with a better record.

That is why I will never use the term "World Series" ever again. From this day forward, it is the "Championship Round of the Post-season TV Tournament"

[glennhoffmania]

Good post, Fisher. The other thing is, as has been discussed in the past, we now have 40% of the playoff teams as WCs yet the schedule is still totally unbalanced. They need to figure out their priorities. Either have only division winners get in (with some kind of reshuffling of the division structure) if that's the true goal or balance the schedule so the 4 WC spots are at least a reasonably fair fight. It's almost like they're trying every possible idea except the ones that make mathematical sense.

[Plympton91]

Good post, Fisher. The other thing is, as has been discussed in the past, we now have 40% of the playoff teams as WCs yet the schedule is still totally unbalanced. They need to figure out their priorities. Either have only division winners get in (with some kind of reshuffling of the division structure) if that's the true goal or balance the schedule so the 4 WC spots are at least a reasonably fair fight. It's almost like they're trying every possible idea except the ones that make mathematical sense.

Glenn, the problem you're having is that you are trying to use non-Selig logic. For Bud Selig, the whole idea is to make it as easy as possible for the Milwaukee Brewers to make the playoffs. By extension, that makes it easier for other small minded market teams to make the playoffs, which he supports as a secondary goal.

Edited by Plympton91, 21 May 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[glennhoffmania]

Ah, that explains the whole Ryan Braun sample screw up then.

I don't really believe that Bud is making decisions to help the Brewers because the owners would throw a collective shit fit. But even for the sake of appearances hiring an owner as the commissioner was a monumentally stupid idea.

[Saby]

Winning the division has always mattered. It guarantees you a playoff spot and HFA at least over the WC. But if that was really the primary concern, there are solutions that are far more logical than this abortion of a playoff system. When was the last time that a non-football playoff series was one game?

First of all, HFA is hardly much of an advantage in baseball. Not for being the better team over a 162 game period.

People are quick to point out that winning your division in basketball, football or hockey isn't as emphasized. So why should baseball give such a holy place to division winners?

Well, baseball is a 162 game season. In football, you have 16 games. It's hard to lock up a division with 3 or 4 games left, and so the race is usually on till about the last to second last week.

Basketball's regular season has always been a joke. If you're not the fan of a team that's on the playoff fringe, then you know your team will be in the playoffs and the whole "each game matters" thing is obsolete. Even in a shortened season, the top 6 teams in the West were pretty much a given for the playoffs. For the best part of a decade, you've had the Spurs literally treating the regular season like extended practice.

I'm pretty sure no one thinks either football or basketball are applicable templates for baseball.

This system isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn close. What you have with it is:

• Legitimate, old school division races. Over 162 games, every game matters. Every game a team loses, every game they let get away could end up contributing to the difference between the team's record and that of the division winner. There's no coasting, no conceding. EVERY game matters. NO ONE wants their season to have to come down to a one-game playoff.
• Teams who previously never had a chance now do. It's easy to think about this through the lens of a high payroll team fan. Not every team is the Red Sox or Yankees. For fans of small market teams, the regular season is now somewhat more relevant. Now, in a few years, when their pitching gets too expensive to keep, the Rays won't be relegated back to the outside looking in. The Brewers, the A's, the Orioles, etc. etc

This would be a horrible system if it were a 3 game playoff series. Why? Because then winning the division isn't as big a deal. Just coast, grab the 1st WC seed and you can beat the 2nd WC.

But 1 game? Nope. No team wants a part of that if they can avoid it in any way. Anything happens in one game, the better team isn't necessarily going through.

I can understand though why people on this board would be livid with this. For no team is this worse than the Red Sox. With the Yankees and their payroll to compete with, in some years, the Sox will have to play a 1 game playoff despite being perhaps the 2nd best team in all of baseball. But, on the flip side, now the BOS-NYY rivalry actually matters in the regular season. Once the Rays fade, it won't be a matter of these two teams just playing out the season as they wait for the playoffs. Every game between them may now be the difference between making the playoffs as the division winner or having to play an absolute roulette of a round.

It's just a matter of perspective.

If you want absolute fairness, go the EPL system, crown the winner after the regular season after everyone plays a balanced schedule. Something tells me that ain't happening anytime soon.

But if you want a system in which more fans are engaged for deeper into the season, this is it. The only fans for which this sucks is the first or second WC who isn't good enough to win the division and isn't in danger of falling out of either WC spots.

Unfortunately, in some years, that will be the Sox. Like I said, it sucks most for the Sox and you guys are probably the only fans with legitimate claim to be upset. That doesn't make it a bad system though.

[getfoul]

It's just a matter of perspective.

If you want absolute fairness, go the EPL system, crown the winner after the regular season after everyone plays a balanced schedule. Something tells me that ain't happening anytime soon.

But if you want a system in which more fans are engaged for deeper into the season, this is it. The only fans for which this sucks is the first or second WC who isn't good enough to win the division and isn't in danger of falling out of either WC spots.

Unfortunately, in some years, that will be the Sox. Like I said, it sucks most for the Sox and you guys are probably the only fans with legitimate claim to be upset. That doesn't make it a bad system though.

I still think the best system would be to eliminate divisions, play a close-to-balanced schedule, and have the top 5 in the league qualify for the postseason. I mentioned this in the other thread about this...the regular season should be reflected in the seeding for the postseason. The top-3 should make the playoffs because they earned it, not because they are located in a certain part of the country. Then the the 4th and 5th best teams can play each other as a second chance game. Right now, you can have a 2nd best team be gone after a 1-game playoff. Yes, the 1-gamer is gimmicky, but if you know it's the 4th and 5th best teams, it's less objectionable.

So let's make the 162-game schedule the real first round of the playoffs, where the top 33% qualifies for the next round.

It would also legitimize the MVP's, Cy's, and batting titles. You would know that players played a balanced schedule, not just feasted on bad teams from a bad division.

So hopefully after Selig and Reinsdorf are gone, they will use some common sense and move to a balanced schedule. It's a pipe dream, but hopefully they'll do it someday.

[Plympton91]

I've said this earlier in the thread, but the problem is this scenario:

Going into the final weekend, the 5th place team has a record of 89-70, with 4 game lead over the 6th place team, allowing it to set up its pitching rotation and rest its regular players.

Meanwhile, the first and second best teams in the league, tied with records of 100-59 going into the last 3 games of the season, are in the same division. They each have to play each game of the final weekend like a championship game, burning out their bullpen, using their best starters, and playing the regulars every day.

Then the 101-61 "second place" team, with its 4th or 5th starter on the mound and a tired bullpen, plays the 90-72 5th place team, with its ace on the mound and a fully rested bullpen. There is no justification for allowing such a situation to occur. No argument can be made that the 5th place team deserves that shot.

With this change, the baseball playoffs are officially the biggest joke in all of professional sports. It would be fairer just to cancel the last week of the season and have a second-chance round-robin tournament with everyone participating.

Edited by Plympton91, 29 May 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[kieckeredinthehead]

Not sure where to put this, but the AL East is collectively 84-52 against the AL Central and West, a .617 win % and 100 win pace.

[Fishercat]

Another fun fact. If the playoffs started today, here's the AL Scenario

1. Texas Rangers
2. Baltimore Orioles or Tampa Bay Rays or Chicago White Sox (depending how tiebreakers go for Chicago v. ALE, and the tiebreaker game goes for BAL/TB)
3. Baltimore Orioles or Tampa Bay Rays or Chicago White Sox (see above)
4. Balitmore Orioles or Tampa Bay Rays (whoever loses the division winner play in game)
5. New York Yankees or Cleveland Indians (does this go to tiebreakers record wise, or another tiebreaker game. I think record tiebreakers)?

Here's how it breaks down.

First, the Orioles and Rays will have to go a game to determine division winner. The loser of that game gets bumped to the four seed, where they will have to play another game against either the Yankees or Indians (I think tiebreakers determines this, but if it doesn't...). Feasibly, that could result in Tampa traveling to Baltimore to play for the division, then traveling home to play the Yankees/Indians, then hosting the Rangers for two games right after that (for this season only, they'd be traveling to Texas in the future).

The Indians are 24-16 against the ALC and ALW, and 2-5 against the ALE. The Yankees .500 record in division is the worst of their performances between the three divisions. Only one of the nine teams outside of the ALE has a winning record against the ALE (the Rangers). The Red Sox, last in their division, are one game back of Cleveland and 13-7 v. the Central (Cleveland is 14-12).

[Fishercat]

It's been about a month, so a quick update on the AL Playoff scenario

-The Chicago White Sox, who would be tied for 6th with the Red Sox in a league based standings system (ignoring the benefit they have had by playing the ALC), automatically make the playoffs
-The Baltimore Orioles, who would be 3rd in said rankings and who have topped the Jays, Rays, and Red Sox, probably have to beat Jered Weaver to make it into the playoffs.
-The Los Angeles Angels, who would be 4th in said rankings, have to travel across the country to play Baltimore, and then travel across the country again back home to play NY for two games
-The Tampa Bay Rays, 5th in said rankings, are completely out of the playoffs, despite finishing better than Chicago.

Love it!

[soxhop411]

It's been about a month, so a quick update on the AL Playoff scenario

-The Chicago White Sox, who would be tied for 6th with the Red Sox in a league based standings system (ignoring the benefit they have had by playing the ALC), automatically make the playoffs
-The Baltimore Orioles, who would be 3rd in said rankings and who have topped the Jays, Rays, and Red Sox, probably have to beat Jered Weaver to make it into the playoffs.
-The Los Angeles Angels, who would be 4th in said rankings, have to travel across the country to play Baltimore, and then travel across the country again back home to play NY for two games
-The Tampa Bay Rays, 5th in said rankings, are completely out of the playoffs, despite finishing better than Chicago.

Love it!

The only way that changes is if they scrap divisions (no east/west/etc) and seed the AL and NL by record... The WC has nothing to do with it.....

[getfoul]

The only way that changes is if they scrap divisions (no east/west/etc) and seed the AL and NL by record... The WC has nothing to do with it.....

As a White Sox fan, I'm hoping they win the division with an 85-77 record or worse, just to show how stupid the new format is.

With 5 of 15 teams making the postseason, divisions aren't needed. Top 3 should make the playoffs, with 4 and 5 playing each other to get in.