429 replies to this topic

[Greg29fan]

He was never established - he's still sliding into position as Kendall goes up for the shot, that's a block.

Edited by Greg29fan, 10 March 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[riboflav]

He was never established - he's still sliding into position as Kendall goes up for the shot, that's a block.

This is a common misread of the rule. You, as a defender, are allowed to slide in one continuous direction and have a right to that path just like offensive player has right to his path. There is no exception for a defender. Marshall turned the corner, while the defender slid continuously and maybe even a tad backward which makes it even more egregious.

[DukeSox]

He was never established - he's still sliding into position as Kendall goes up for the shot, that's a block.

So you're saying it was a bad non-call then, right? Cause they didn't call a block.

[Greg29fan]

It was either a block or nothing, it wasn't a charge. They aren't going to call a charge there regardless with 10 seconds left, you know that, anybody who watches college basketball knows that. It's not a duke/unc/acc thing, it's game-wide. They call way too many charges to start with - every time Zeller draws a charge he's got his arms up initiating contact and they call charges on guys who are already in the air and some guy comes sliding over late.

Edited by Greg29fan, 10 March 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Greg29fan]

John Swofford better get to work fucking over FSU

[Greg29fan]

oh shit

[BigSoxFan]

Holy shit. What a weird finish. Dukies not exactly peaking heading into the dance.

[DukeSox]

Holy shit. What a weird finish. Dukies not exactly peaking heading into the dance.

Keep in mind Ryan Kelly (3rd on team in both points and rebounds) was out for ACCs. But yeah, Duke just doesn't have another go-to player besides Rivers.

There are no midrange players, it's either 3 point shot (which generally has to be uncontested) or a dump inside to a Plumlee. So play tight 3point D and pack the paint, and you can leave the entire space between those two areas open with little fear. With defenders inside packed in the paint, this takes away the drive from outside that would normally be available if defenders were more evenly spaced across the frontcourt.

This team wasn't going to be be a final four threat unless they shot really well in the NCAA tourney. Nothing has changed from that standpoint. So, onward to the big tournament.

[Greg29fan]

good news for Carolina, it'd be hard for this game against FSU to go any worse than the last one.

[DukeSox]

K visits FSU locker room after the game: http://floridastate....061&CID=1341614

Snaer had a game-high six assists with two blocked shots and two steals, earning a big compliment from Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski.
"I love Snaer," Krzyzewski said. "He's just a damn good player. I think he's the best competitor in our league."

Pretty sure K would swap these FSU players for his own in a heartbeat.

Edited by DukeSox, 10 March 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[BigSoxFan]

It's not the Duke players' fault that Coach K has constructed a flawed roster. And even the "flawed" roster is going to be a top 2 seed in the dance. But, seriously, where's the athletic 6'6 wing? Where's the low post scorer? I fail to understand why Duke has to concede the more athletic teams to the UNC's of the world.

[DukeSox]

It's not the Duke players' fault that Coach K has constructed a flawed roster. And even the "flawed" roster is going to be a top 2 seed in the dance. But, seriously, where's the athletic 6'6 wing? Where's the low post scorer? I fail to understand why Duke has to concede the more athletic teams to the UNC's of the world.

Story of the last 5 years; 9 or so if you don't consider Sheldon Williams a real scorer.

As to the wing, haven't really had one of those since Gerald Henderson left.

Saw this on DBR, bolded (my emphasis) sounds about right:

Thirteen of the last 15 Duke teams brought home a serious piece of hardware, either:

- a regular season ACC championship
- an ACC tournament championship
- a Final Four berth; or
- a national title.

... or more than one of those things. See: http://www.sports-re...b/schools/duke/

The only two squads in the past 15 years that did not bring home one of those big four trophies were 2007 and 2008.

The 2007 team went out in the 1st round of the NCAAs; the 2008 team went out in the 2d round.

Right now, 2012 is looking a bit like 2008 in terms of overall accomplishment.

2012: 27 wins, early season tourney crown, ACC semis exit, AP high rank of 3, NCAA: ????????
2008: 28 wins, early season tourney crown, ACC semis exit, AP high rank of 2, NCAA: round of 32 exit


Just crazy to bring home big trophies 13 out of 15 years. May yet get a big one this year ...... hopefully 2012 finishes stronger than 2008 did.

Edited by DukeSox, 10 March 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[lars10]

Story of the last 5 years; 9 or so if you don't consider Sheldon Williams a real scorer.

As to the wing, haven't really had one of those since Gerald Henderson left.

Saw this on DBR, bolded (my emphasis) sounds about right:

My impression as a UNC fan has always been that Duke doesn't typically rely on athletic players... typically relying more on three point shooting and a great system and coach. They do have a problem though if their 3 point shooting is off which can happen in any one game.

This years team seems to lack all of what you guys are talking about..but is this a truly complete Duke team or a team in transition? Their interior definitely needs help it would seem...but when was the last time they really had an NBA bound body down there?

[DukeSox]

My impression as a UNC fan has always been that Duke doesn't typically rely on athletic players... typically relying more on three point shooting and a great system and coach. They do have a problem though if their 3 point shooting is off which can happen in any one game.

This years team seems to lack all of what you guys are talking about..but is this a truly complete Duke team or a team in transition? Their interior definitely needs help it would seem...but when was the last time they really had an NBA bound body down there?

Duke gets athletic players, but like you said does not rely on them, instead fitting them within a more comprehensive system of players K thinks have the ability (both basketball and mental) to play together as a team. Many of those athletic players you mention have a ton of variance coming out of high school...for every athletic player who you see starring in the tournaments right now, there are others that were at the same level in high school when they were being recruited that never panned out. I think K dislikes that.

It's the same as the NBA draft -- teams (used to?) draft 19 year old athletic freaks who they hope can put it together on the floor and become great NBA players...hence Bilas' overuse of the phrases "upside potential" and "really long" in recent years. Many colleges "draft" (recruit) athletic 16 year olds who may become awesome in college, if they can polish that jump shot or develop some inside moves...but there's a good chance they just don't pan out.

Whereas I think K recruits more polished high school kids (the NBA equiv. of a 4 year college grad) who he thinks have the basics down, and are athletic enough to compete, so he can teach them to play together in a team game. And then there are the players that have the skills and the athletics but maybe not the mental makeup or attitude that K is looking for, which is why he typically only targets a few of the top-15 high school kids in each class that fit all 3 -- skills, athletic enough, and attitude. K's willing to give up on the athletic aspect if the other two are there.

So out of the lottery of high school kids, the crazy athletes disperse to all the other teams. And because it's a lottery, some of them become great players after a couple years, and others don't. K dislikes that risk and would rather understand what he has coming in and not hope for the best.

And Duke generally puts together a pretty good team this way, that is good enough to win most of it's ACC games. But every year there is a national tournament, which consists of teams that have been quite good that year -- that is, the teams frequently comprised of several really athletic players out of high school who have figured it out in college and become good basketball players as well -- this is why the team is in the tournament in the first place. And when Duke runs into a collection of players like that in the tournament, things like teamwork and mental attitude don't really overcome disadvantages of inches and pounds and speed all over the court.

And things like this happen: http://espn.go.com/n...ameId=310830150. or this: http://espn.go.com/n...ameId=264000053

K is essentially trading high annual variance (generated by trying to collect a bunch of those lottery tickets, and where missing may keep you out of the tournament but hitting on those tickets gives you a real shot at the Final Four) for moderation (players with known skills that generate a solid 13-3 in the ACC, leading to a usually high NCAA seed, but a team that may not actually be dominant like one would normally expect a #1 seed to be).

It's like Theo trying to create a 95 win team that'll get you into the postseason tournament, and what happens from there is a crapshoot.

Except I think the NCAA is less of a crapshoot, in that at some point you're going to play some really good teams, and you don't have a 5 or 7 game series to show you're the better team, you only have one shot. So if you're not able to keep up with bigger/faster/stronger players, you're going to get exposed. Which is why you see Duke get to the 2nd week of the tournament a lot, and less frequently go out the first week or make it to the Final Four.

[PaulinMyrBch]

The problem I see with Duke is too many of the same player, not enough roster diversity. The Plumlee's are similar and just not that good. The guards, small forwards, are all stand and shoot types lacking penetration ability except for Rivers. Duke has always promoted guards to dribble, penetrate, dish. Austin is the only one doing that and since he finishes better now than earlier, the dishing to the three line is less frequent. No one plays them zone, and why would you. Guard everyone and let the one guy who can create try to beat you himself.

This Duke team is not what it needs to be, but its not fatally flawed either. Just replace one small or one big with a player that offers a different type of game and things suddenly appear balanced. For instance put Elton Brand or Deng on this squad, or JJ or Gerald on this squad, and suddenly things aren't as one dimensional. And had Kyrie stayed...is anyone denying what would be happening then?

K has his down years, but unlike UNC, you don't have to wonder whats wrong, how come these kids won't play like they're supposed to. K is not the one who people are constantly whispering about behind his back on Tobacco Road.

Edited by PaulinMyrBch, 11 March 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[Greg29fan]

John's taking warmups today and then they'll decide if he's going to play.

[Greg29fan]

we have no clue how to beat Florida State...none. fuck, can't even compete with them.

[Hendu's Gait]

we have no clue how to beat Florida State...none. fuck, can't even compete with them.

yeah, they may be the 2nd or 3rd most talented collection of players in the country, but they're not a #1 seed if they can't compete with a conference foe. I pray they avoid Kentucky and Ohio state (or FSU) until the FF.

Edited by Hendu's Gait, 11 March 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Greg29fan]

Dulkys is an ameoba against every other team these guys play but he's a hall of famer against UNC

[Greg29fan]

10-18 from 3 for them. Almost comical how well they've shot the ball in the 2 games.

[JShams]

I can't believe this team lost to BC. How the hell did that happen?

On the plus side if Hairston starts shooting like he was expected to, that will be huge for the tournament.

[Greg29fan]

run it down to one possession and they go off again, including another bomb. unreal

[DukeSox]

Interesting to note that FSU can play a defensive game (see yesterday's 62-59 win against Duke) OR an offensive game (up 71-65 with 9 minutes to go).

That's versatility, and huge for the tournament. Len Hamilton isn't the best coach in terms of getting his team up for every game (see loss to BC, as noted by JShams), but in the post-season that shouldn't be an issue -- FSU has been up for the ACC tournament and there's no reason to expect they won't be even more amped for the NCAA tournament. Strong team, make them do work in your brackets.

[Hendu's Gait]

OMG, not the shot I wanted, but will take it. Kendall does nothing but exceed my expectations.

[DukeSox]

Leonard Hamilton is terrified right now.

[JimBoSox9]

Jesus...talk about not the shot you wanted

[Greg29fan]

oh fuck off with that bullshit shot Kendall

[DukeSox]

Jesus...talk about not the shot you wanted

Just like Rivers jacking up a 3 yesterday.

[JimBoSox9]

If he makes the second, FSU should foul

[Hendu's Gait]

Good for the conference to have a strong #3 team.

[Greg29fan]

nice sequence guys, a 2 gives you the lead, you jack one from outer mongolia, wind up with one from even farther outer mongolia at the buzzer

[Greg29fan]

congratulations to Florida State, you go undefeated against Duke and Carolina, you deserve to win something.

[Hendu's Gait]

OMG, not the shot I wanted, but will take it. Kendall does nothing but exceed my expectations.

Your fucking fault, Hendu.

(btw, Gminski is much likeable as an analyst then a player)

[DukeSox]

congratulations to Florida State, you go undefeated against Duke and Carolina, you deserve to win something.

der....

http://espn.go.com/n...ameId=320540052

[Greg29fan]

yeah duh I forgot they played you guys twice

[DukeSox]

yeah duh I forgot they played you guys twice

Unbalanced sched. is the worst, ain't it?

[DukeSox]

That said, when was the last time an ACC team beat both Duke and UNC TWICE in the same year? Seriously, anyone know?

Edited by DukeSox, 11 March 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Greg29fan]

Unbalanced sched. is the worst, ain't it?

gonna get even worse when Syracuse and Pitt come in

[Saturnian]

That said, when was the last time an ACC team beat both Duke and UNC TWICE in the same year? Seriously, anyone know?

They showed a graphic a few times during the game today - Georgia Tech in 95-96 was the last team to pull that off. FSU became the 5th team; I don't remember the others, think GT did it one other time, and Wake did it once when Duncan was there.

Edited by Saturnian, 11 March 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[tims4wins]

Since shooting 6-12 for 22 points in the 2/23 win @ FSU, Andre Dawkins is 1-14 from the field with 3 points in the last 5 games. He DID NOT SCORE in the ACC Tournament. He appears to be a lost cause when he misses his first shot of the game. He needs to be so much more consistent for Duke to be any kind of a threat this year.

[tims4wins]

My predictions:
Maryland over Wake
NC State over BC
Virginia Tech over Clemson
Miami over Georgia Tech

UNC over Maryland
NC State over Virginia
Duke over Virginia Tech
FSU over Miami

UNC over NC State
FSU over Duke

UNC over FSU

So close

[Clears Cleaver]

Good for the conference to have a strong #3 team.

you think Duke is strong?

FSU beat Duke twice, UNC twice and lost to two different ivy league teams (as well as BC)

[tims4wins]

Injury updates

2. Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski wasn’t prepared to rule out forward Ryan Kelly (foot injury) for Friday's second-round game against Lehigh but wasn’t sounding too optimistic that he will play. You can’t compare Kelly to Kyrie Irving, but it is a bit of déjà vu that the Blue Devils are dealing with a foot injury heading into the NCAA tournament for the second consecutive season.

3. North Carolina coach Roy Williams wouldn’t give an exact time frame for the return of forward John Henson, who missed the past two games with a wrist injury. The selection committee was under the impression that Henson would be back for the tournament.

[BigSoxFan]

So...whither Austin Rivers? Duke's talent level needs an upgrade, in my opinion.

[tims4wins]

Really not sure what happened to this team down the stretch. After the fantastic win at Florida State, they completely collapsed. Curry was horrible over the last 5 or 6 games. The team totally lost its outside shooting ability. Rivers wasn't quite the same player. Dawkins totally disappeared.

Coming into the tourney, I thought that if they just made the Sweet 16 or Elite 8, and if Mason Plumlee and Rivers returned, they would be preseason #1. Now it feels like there are a lot more questions, and they'll probably settle in around #5 to #8 to start the year (not that it really matters).

[DukeSox]

Really not sure what happened to this team down the stretch. .

I think they just didn't really like playing together. Plumlee made some comment about how the 2010 team were bros, implying that
these guys aren't.

Next years team won't be significantly better.

[Drocca]

I also think the team was relying too much on Curry who I just don't think is very good.

[tims4wins]

I also think the team was relying too much on Curry who I just don't think is very good.

Lot of truth in this.

DBR is a pretty lousy site, but every once in a while Al Featherston writes a good article for them, and he did today

This year’s Duke team was built on a shaky foundation. The team’s leading scorer – and most consistent offensive player – was a freshman who had a difficult time integrating his brilliant one-on-one skills into a team concept. Three juniors who had considerable experience as role players on past Blue Devil teams all failed to achieve the consistency expected of Duke’s leaders. There were nights when Seth Curry, Ryan Kelly and/or Andre Dawkins looked like stars – but none of the three could sustain that level of play. Veteran post players Miles and Mason Plumlee were fairly consistent on the boards and usually (with a couple of glaring exceptions) did a good job defensively, but neither ever established a consistent offensive groove.
The team’s most important defensive player – sophomore Tyler Thornton – was an offensive liability. There was nobody in the rotation able to apply ball pressure or to stop mid-sized wing players and there were times when the Plumlee brothers got overpowered in the post.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

So, as an Ohio grad who didn't watch much non-MAC college basketball this year, what does the (likely) loss of Marshall do to UNC?

Was he generally responsible for initiating the offense, or did they run it through Barnes a large portion of the time anyhow? I literally know nothing about Stilman White. What is the book on him?

UNC's length makes this a really tough match-up for OU, as we just don't see teams like this in the MAC, and play a guard heavy rotation. But crazier things have happened, I guess, and John Groce is such a good coach and DJ Cooper is so fearless, that I'm confident we won't back down at least. UNC is obviously a much better team, but the only solace I take is that I've seen us play much, much better this season than we did against either Michigan or South Florida. If we can play like we did against Northern Iowa, or Akron/Kent State at home, and UNC struggles to adjust to Marhsall's absence offensively, we may have a punchers chance.

I think key for Ohio will be to avoid giving up a ton of second chance points and to get a couple of our secondary scorers going. Cooper is easily the best player on our team, and though his numbers weren't as good as some other guys, he was far and away the best player in the MAC, too. In addition to being our leading scorer, he also holds Ohio's all time career assist and steals records and is our 4th leading rebounder. He's small--maybe 5'9--but has a huge wingspan which lets him play bigger on the defensive end and helps him to get shots off in the paint. He's willing to shoot from just about anywhere and isn't afraid to challenge big guys. He has really quick hands, and along with Offutt/Kellog/TJ Hall, we play very good perimeter defense, which is why we matched up so well against a team like Michigan who relies so heavily on the 3.

Outside of Cooper, we have a lot of talent for a MAC team, but they've been inconsistent. Our second leading scorer is Walter Offutt, who transferred from Ohio State and is an athletic guard who rebounds his position and is a streaky shooter. When he's hitting his shots, we're at our best. Our next scoring options are Reggie Keely and Ivo Baltic; Keely is basically just a bull. He's listed at 6'8 265, but I'd guess the 265 is right, but he's more like 6'6. He's a decent rebounder, has decent hands, but plays hard and has taken on some tough defensive assignments. Baltic is a very athletic 6'8 forward with a decent but inconsistent jump shot, and is probably our best defender. He'll spend time on Barnes, Henson, and Zeller most likely. I thought his versatility on defense was the key in the Michigan game as he really shut down Novak and spent time on Hardaway Jr. We also get good minutes from Nick Kellogg, Clark's son, who is the best pure shooter on the team and plays hard. Jon Smith, a St. Louis transfer, starts for us at center and basically just brings good length, rebounding, and shot blocking. He's quick for a 5, and rotates well on the defensive end, but is not involved in the offense and usually ends up playing less than both Keely and Baltic. TJ Hall, Ricardo Johnson, and Stevie Taylor back up Kellogg, Offutt, and Cooper respectively. They're all competent players who can provide 10 minutes or so without a ton of drop off. Of the three, Stevie Taylor, a freshman point guard, is the only real scoring threat and has had a couple of big games this year.

Ultimately, if we can play the way we played against Northern Iowa, Akron (at home), Wright State, or Kent State (at home), we have a shot. But unless we shoot very well, I think that even at our best, UNC is probably 10-15 points better than us. That said, I firmly believe that John Groce is one of the best basketball coaches in the country, and know that we'll come out to play. Also, there's a decent chance I don't sleep between now and Friday.

[tims4wins]

So, as an Ohio grad who didn't watch much non-MAC college basketball this year, what does the (likely) loss of Marshall do to UNC?

Was he generally responsible for initiating the offense, or did they run it through Barnes a large portion of the time anyhow? I literally know nothing about Stilman White. What is the book on him?

Marshall definitely runs the show. He set the ACC single season assist record this year. He's their most important player on offense, IMO. He averages 7.4 assists in their losses, and 10.1 in their wins. He's not a key scorer but he does average about 8 points a game, and has averaged almost 15 per game in during their last 6 games.

Edited by tims4wins, 19 March 2012 - 09:09 AM.