I was at the game tonight and made it a point to watch Rivers off the ball and on defense. He was awful on both. He just looks out of sorts on the defensive end at this point and not effective without the ball in his hands. He is explosive off the dribble, but his shot is off. He needs to get stronger because when he gets in the lane he got knocked around pretty good.
The one thing I took away about Duke tonight is that UNC will dominate them. Rivers and Curry won't be able to guard anyone in UNC's backcourt and Henson/Zeller/Barnes will overpower Kelly/Plumlees.
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2011-2012 Duke / UNC Hoops
Started by
tims4wins
, Apr 06 2011 04:47 PM
429 replies to this topic
#102
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Rick Derris
Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:55 AM
yeah i'm not looking forward to these games so much.The one thing I took away about Duke tonight is that UNC will dominate them. Rivers and Curry won't be able to guard anyone in UNC's backcourt and Henson/Zeller/Barnes will overpower Kelly/Plumlees.
we'll always have 82-50.
#103
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Rick Derris
Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:24 AM
"Coach told us it was just a normal game, but you know it's hard not to think about it. You want to be part of the team that does it,'' guard Andre Dawkins said. "Then last night, coach Knight came to the hotel to talk to us. He said if we didn't win, he was going to run practice for the next two days, so that's why I decided to go out and score some points.''
#104
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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:56 PM
from dbr
What this blissfully ignores is that up until the mid eighties teams only played 34 or so games... Smith's '82 championship team was 32-2 for instance. 93' 34-4. Smith suffered from players leaving early...whereas Duke has consistently had players stay for the majority of their college careers. Coach K seems to identify great college players whereas Smith had great college players that were pro ready much earlier. (As evidenced by Wallace, Jamison, Carter and Stackhouse all leaving early).
Coach K is a great coach..but number of seasons with 30+ wins is not a great measure when trying to compare with coaches who seasons were far shorter (even when finishing in the finals or final four).
Looking at the numbers it looks as though one thing Duke has done is play a ton of games...probably a lot of early tournaments and good runs into march madness.. I think the better measure would be winning percentage, especially one against ranked opponents (I think Coach K would do well here, but wouldn't be nearly as dominant..Smith 879-254 (1133 in 36 seasons) vs Coach K 903-284 (1187 in 32 seasons))
edit: clarity
Edited by lars10, 16 November 2011 - 03:57 PM.
#105
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Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:33 PM
Smith suffered from players leaving early...whereas Duke has consistently had players stay for the majority of their college careers.
edit: clarity
How on earth is this an argument against Coach K's value as a coach? UNC was at a disadvantage because he recruited players that were ready to jump to the NBA as college freshmen? Really?
If it is such a disadvantage, maybe he should have recruited mor unathletic whiteys like Coach K did. K excels at balancing between recruiting uber-talented one and dones and the rock solid 4 year guys, it's to his credit that he has succeeded in that regard, not an unfair advantage.
#106
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Posted 17 November 2011 - 02:14 AM
How on earth is this an argument against Coach K's value as a coach? UNC was at a disadvantage because he recruited players that were ready to jump to the NBA as college freshmen? Really?
If it is such a disadvantage, maybe he should have recruited mor unathletic whiteys like Coach K did. K excels at balancing between recruiting uber-talented one and dones and the rock solid 4 year guys, it's to his credit that he has succeeded in that regard, not an unfair advantage.
I didn't mean to imply that it was an argument against coach K's value... instead what I meant to say was that there's a reason Coach K has won so many games and part of that is that he's been able to attract and keep players for four years more consistently. Teams have been able to play together for longer periods with less disruption. It's not a question of UNC being at a disadvantage..just that a team is disrupted when their star players move on...and usually struggles for one year or so. Coach K benefited from fewer disruptions...because he's a good coach and able to keep players around.. does that make sense?
#107
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PN23's replacement
Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:23 AM
He's also been able to handle the disruptions. After the mass exodus of 1999, the 2000 team went 29-5. After Williams / Boozer / Dunleavy left in 2002, the 2003 team went 26-7. After Luol Deng went 1 and done in 2004, the 2005 team went 27-6. Etc.
Edited by tims4wins, 17 November 2011 - 10:23 AM.
#108
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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:28 AM
I didn't mean to imply that it was an argument against coach K's value... instead what I meant to say was that there's a reason Coach K has won so many games and part of that is that he's been able to attract and keep players for four years more consistently. Teams have been able to play together for longer periods with less disruption. It's not a question of UNC being at a disadvantage..just that a team is disrupted when their star players move on...and usually struggles for one year or so. Coach K benefited from fewer disruptions...because he's a good coach and able to keep players around.. does that make sense?
Perhaps I got the wrong message since you said it in the same breath as noting that K has more games in the schedule to hit 30 wins. It sorta implied that both were advantages unrelated to his value as his coach.
#109
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Posted 17 November 2011 - 01:27 PM
Perhaps I got the wrong message since you said it in the same breath as noting that K has more games in the schedule to hit 30 wins. It sorta implied that both were advantages unrelated to his value as his coach.
fair point... my argument could have been ordered better.
As a fan of UNC for my entire life I did the best I could to make a case for both Smith and Coach K.
The 30 win plateau to me is less relevant given length of schedule...but it's hard to argue against some of those seasons with 1-4 losses.
And the number of wins albeit a great accomplishment is also not quite as great given the fact that his teams have played in 50 more games (albeit possibly more tournament games) in 4 fewer seasons than Smith's teams...but only slightly...it's still a great accomplishment.
They're both great coaches as are the others on the initial list.
#110
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Posted 17 November 2011 - 01:31 PM
He's also been able to handle the disruptions. After the mass exodus of 1999, the 2000 team went 29-5. After Williams / Boozer / Dunleavy left in 2002, the 2003 team went 26-7. After Luol Deng went 1 and done in 2004, the 2005 team went 27-6. Etc.
Williams/Boozer/Dunleavy were all in their Junior year..which means freshman and sophomores had a year more to develop. It's true that his teams have responded well....
Honestly it's great to be a fan of either team...because they don't just recruit..they reload.
#112
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darrell foster wallace
Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:03 PM
I started watching Carolina basketball at the same time I started watching...well, anything. It has been instilled in me and I've followed every season with a disturbing level of fanaticism. So when I tell you that Kendall Marshall, who is barely a Sophomore, is my favorite UNC player of all time it comes with a weight. I am just such a ridiculous fanboy about him that I'm blinded, and I'm not usually like that with players. But his demeanor, leadership, intelligence and (most importantly) game is just so awesome.
On another note; Congrats to Coach K. He deserves it and by every account, even as someone groomed to dislike him, he is a class act. I still maintain he is the best basketball coach in the game and has been since the early nineties. I love Dean Smith like no other and he's right there, but he falls a hair short as a coach. Not as a teacher, though Coach K is fantastic at that as well, and Smith was probably a better recruiter and judge of talent but that just magnifies what Coach K means to that program, his players and college basketball on the whole.
I'm also looking forward to beating them three times this year.
On another note; Congrats to Coach K. He deserves it and by every account, even as someone groomed to dislike him, he is a class act. I still maintain he is the best basketball coach in the game and has been since the early nineties. I love Dean Smith like no other and he's right there, but he falls a hair short as a coach. Not as a teacher, though Coach K is fantastic at that as well, and Smith was probably a better recruiter and judge of talent but that just magnifies what Coach K means to that program, his players and college basketball on the whole.
I'm also looking forward to beating them three times this year.
#115
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PN23's replacement
Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:23 AM
Real solid win for Duke yesterday, liked what I saw from Rivers when he was driving the ball, not so much when he was shooting the ball. Mason Plumlee has really improved this year, I definitely was pessimistic about the chances of that happening.
Another good test today against Michigan, and then another opportunity to play a quality team tomorrow, followed by Ohio State next week. Love all of these early season tests. Even the easier games (Belmont, Davidson) have been against quality teams.
Another good test today against Michigan, and then another opportunity to play a quality team tomorrow, followed by Ohio State next week. Love all of these early season tests. Even the easier games (Belmont, Davidson) have been against quality teams.
#117
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Rick Derris
Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:19 PM
Duke never plays anyone hard! Wahhhh!!!Real solid win for Duke yesterday, liked what I saw from Rivers when he was driving the ball, not so much when he was shooting the ball. Mason Plumlee has really improved this year, I definitely was pessimistic about the chances of that happening.
Another good test today against Michigan, and then another opportunity to play a quality team tomorrow, followed by Ohio State next week. Love all of these early season tests. Even the easier games (Belmont, Davidson) have been against quality teams.
#122
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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:42 AM
Irving was much more polished coming in and had better ball handling skills but do they even play the same position? It seems as though Rivers is more of a SG than a PG, while Irving was a pure PG. Rivers also seems to be more of a volume scorer that needs more shots to get his points but goes to the line a lot. I think he'll develope into a really good player as the year goes on but right now there are definately moments that he doesn't look good. Rivers also seems to switch to his off hand really well when driving.Kyrie Irving was so much better than Rivers is.
#124
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Posted 23 November 2011 - 08:56 PM
It's also worth remembering that Rivers is stepping into a team with no established star. Irving was superb, but Smith and Singler were the leaders of the team. The better comparison for Rivers is Jason Williams as a freshman. Carawell and Battier weren't stars when J-Will showed up, just really solid players. Jason's first few weeks were a lot like Austin's. Flashes of dominance, followed by stretched of forcing the action and ending up with turnovers. Austin is actually a little above where Jason was 6 games into his career. J-Will went on to one of the greatest careers in ACC history. Austin just needs time and to continue to work hard on improving every single day.Irving was much more polished coming in and had better ball handling skills but do they even play the same position? It seems as though Rivers is more of a SG than a PG, while Irving was a pure PG. Rivers also seems to be more of a volume scorer that needs more shots to get his points but goes to the line a lot. I think he'll develope into a really good player as the year goes on but right now there are definately moments that he doesn't look good. Rivers also seems to switch to his off hand really well when driving.
#132
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Rick Derris
Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:19 AM
Rivers with 4 fouls, K leaves Thornton in till the end of the game instead of putting Rivers back in, and Thronton nails the last 2 3's to win the game.
that kind of coaching gets you 907 wins.
that kind of coaching gets you 907 wins.
Edited by DukeSox, 24 November 2011 - 12:20 AM.
#135
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Rick Derris
Posted 24 November 2011 - 12:50 AM
i would like to thank the refs for this awful call in the 2nd half. it sat Rivers with 4 fouls, forcing Thornton to come in and take his place and eventually win the game.awful call on that offensive foul on rivers. 4 point swing.
#136
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sloppy seconds
Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:01 AM
And stick around for 3 years.
Huge test for the Blue Devils tonight.
Unless Rivers wants to go all William Avery he better stay 3 years as he is far from an NBA level PG. He relies on his first step now which isn't really an explosive one at the next level, isn't very athletic for a starting NBA PG, doesn't possess the passing skills of an NBA PG, and is struggling with his perimeter shooting with the speed of the college game. I'm going to say Rivers is at Duke for 3 years.....or at the very least, should be.
#137
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Rick Derris
Posted 24 November 2011 - 01:35 AM
In the past, Duke's live by the/die by the 3 was usually focused on one or two shooters.
Tonight, 5 guys attempted at least 2 3pt attempts. All 5 of them hit at least 2 3pt attempts. Among them, only Kelly's percentage was below 40%.
Tonight, 5 guys attempted at least 2 3pt attempts. All 5 of them hit at least 2 3pt attempts. Among them, only Kelly's percentage was below 40%.
#138
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Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:27 AM
Which followed the block no call; Taylor should've had two free throws but instead turned it over for the 11th time, though it looked an awful lot like it went of Kelly's knee.I was too busy looking at the traveling no call.
Either way, KU looked a whole lot better than it did a week ago against Kentucky. Reign in Taylor some more, develop a bunch and the Jayhawks will be just fine. They took quite a few steps forward this week.
#140
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Rick Derris
Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:23 AM
I was too busy looking at the traveling no call.
4-44-1.a
Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving or
dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously
on both feet (no pivot foot).
legal play. it happened slower than you're used to seeing, so it kinda looked weird, but definitely no travel there. last minute of play, all the refs were clearly watching the ball and that play very closely.
#141
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SoSH Member
Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:08 AM
The problem with KU is that they just aren't real deep after the suspensions of Ben McLemore and Jamari Traylor. Also, Taylor needs to find some consistency in his game. I remember the Big 12 title game win last year over Texas(20 pts 5 assists) as a benchmark of how good he can be. But last night, he was awful. Just plain awful. Double-digit turnovers is not acceptable from a senior point guard.Which followed the block no call; Taylor should've had two free throws but instead turned it over for the 11th time, though it looked an awful lot like it went of Kelly's knee.
Either way, KU looked a whole lot better than it did a week ago against Kentucky. Reign in Taylor some more, develop a bunch and the Jayhawks will be just fine. They took quite a few steps forward this week.
To be competitive against the top teams, Jeff Withey(14 and 10) needs to play like he did last night every time out. They aren't real deep outside of Thomas Robinson down low, so his presence is needed to take some pressure off him. I can see this team going to the Sweet 16, but nothing beyond that because they aren't deep.
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SoSH Member
Posted 27 November 2011 - 12:14 AM
UNLV is a good team, but they are getting every loose ball and hitting every open shot. Remarkable. Henson should not be on the court v this team. UNLV has 9 fouls, if Roy was smart (and I think he is), they will pound it down low to Zeller and Barnes posting his guy and try to shoot 10 FTs or more down the stretch. If not, they better make some threes
#149
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sloppy seconds
Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:21 AM
UNLV is a good team, but they are getting every loose ball and hitting every open shot. Remarkable. Henson should not be on the court v this team. UNLV has 9 fouls, if Roy was smart (and I think he is), they will pound it down low to Zeller and Barnes posting his guy and try to shoot 10 FTs or more down the stretch. If not, they better make some threes
This was a perfect storm for UNLV playing their Super Bowl in their home city while UNC had their eyes set on their 2 big games coming up this week. Come March the result of this game will be meaningless to UNC and hopefully they can learn from it. If this game showed anything it is that there may be "too much" talent on the Tar Heels and not enough players fitting into a role for the team to reach their apex. McAdoo's shot selection was atrocious while Zeller, Henson, and Barnes never got into the flow of the game offensively or defensively.....i have concerns with Zeller playing at the pace this team wants to play at while i know he is fast and athletic he doesn't appear comfortable playing "that" fast. I love how comfortable Hairston looks out there.....you can't teach what he can do with the basketball.
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