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Ellsbury projections


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#1 Sprowl


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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:44 PM

Theo on Mad Dog radio:

Ellsbury - healthy, great swing in BP, has ability to take game to another level and starting to see it with three HRs this spring on plus fastballs.
...
"imagine how many WS we would have won if I was as smart as Buck Showalter" - said totally tongue-in-cheek. LOL


ELJE is 27, and coming off a hot spring after a lost year. As a player whose best tool is his speed, he should be entering the prime of his career. There have been a few hints of a power breakout in past years: upper-body development, the occasional power swing, and generally improved performance against fastballs. How high is Ellsbury's ceiling, and what are the chances that he puts it all together this year? Do we get Taco, Dreamboat, China Ribs, or Everybody Loves Jacoby Ellsbury?

Three projections (from Fangraphs):

Bill James: .300/.355/.409, with 59 SB in 674 PAs
Marcel: .277/.333./.383, with 25 SB in 311 (!) PAs (Marcel apparently expects China Ribs)
59 fans: .293/.348/.406, with 50 SB in 603 PAs

I'm going with .290/.360/.430 in 600 PAs, including 51 SB and career highs in walks and home runs.

#2 OttoC


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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:14 PM

Ellsbury showed a fair amount of power in his first season, 7/1/3 exbh in 116 ab, which projects to 35/5/15 for 162 games according to bbref. I always felt that since that season he has been trying to play the part of a lead-off batter, slapping at the ball and trying to use his speed. Perhaps he has matured in his thinking.

#3 BosRedSox5


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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:17 PM

Most guys tend to hit for more power around this age, and Jacoby is solidly built. He looks strong and powerful, and I really think that he'd be able to hit 20 or more homers if he worked on making that part of his game. There's a lot of Ellsbury haters on the board. But let's not forget his 2009. He led the league in triples and steals. He hit .300 and he had a .355 OBP. It's going to be a put up or shut up year for him but I believe that he'll be one of the surprise players of the season. He's going to have more than a bunch of pink hats on his bandwagon by June.

#4 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 25 March 2011 - 10:41 PM

I think there's an excellent chance that Ellsbury can raise his game on multiple fronts this year. Here are some of his rate numbers to date, with suggestions for reasonable projection ranges:

BB rate. Career: 6.7% Career best: 7.1%. Minors: 9.6%. Projection range: 6 to 9%.
K rate. Career: 13%. Career best: 11.5%. Minors: 10.7%. Projection range: 11 to 14%.
BABIP. Career: .320. Career best: .328. Minors: .352. Projection range: .316 to .336.
HR/650 PA. Career: 9. Minors: 5. Projection range: 8 to 14.
Doubles/650 PA. Career: 26. Minors: 25. Projection range: 24 to 32.
Triples/650 PA. Career: 8. Minors: 11. Projection range: 8 to 12.

Those projection ranges would yield the following worst case/midpoint/best case slash lines:

Worst: .278/.329/.384
Mid: .295/.355/.431
Best: .310/.380/.478

As rosy as that best-case line looks, it's built from component numbers none of which is unrealistic in itself.

I'm leaning a little on the optimistic side of the midpoint: I've got him at .305/.365/.450.

#5 CaptainLaddie


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Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:50 AM

If Ellsbury puts up those "best" numbers, he'll be an MVP candidate.

Edited by CaptainLaddie, 26 March 2011 - 02:50 AM.


#6 [icon]

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 02:33 PM

FWIW Taco passed the eyeball test last week when my brother was on the field pregame. Said he looks like he's put on even more bulk and was effortlessly stroking deep balls during BP. I'm pretty high on him this year and IMO Savin Hillbilly is pretty close with the "optimistic side of the midpoint" take.

#7 Eric Van


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Posted 28 March 2011 - 03:06 PM

Based just on the .303 / .366 / .438 he hit in 2009 starting with his temporary demotion to 8th on May 31, you'd have to say that something like .310 / .375 / .455 is perfectly within reach. Which is just a little bit better than Savin (whose projection I was not looking at while making mine) who in turn was a bit better than Sprowl ... but I think we're all in the same ballpark.

I'm frankly more up in the air as to what kind of defense we'll get.

Edited by Eric Van, 28 March 2011 - 03:07 PM.


#8 joe dokes

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:10 AM

Based just on the .303 / .366 / .438 he hit in 2009 starting with his temporary demotion to 8th on May 31, you'd have to say that something like .310 / .375 / .455 is perfectly within reach. Which is just a little bit better than Savin (whose projection I was not looking at while making mine) who in turn was a bit better than Sprowl ... but I think we're all in the same ballpark.

I'm frankly more up in the air as to what kind of defense we'll get.


I can easily see him putting up Damon-ish numbers (non Bronx version) at bat. Maybe he wont be the best, or a perfect, leadoff hitter, in some abstract sense, but he'll be fine.

I share a defense worry, as well. For as long as he's played CF here, Ellsbury has had a stiff in LF. So going all-out for every ball that was even close was risk-free, in terms of collisions. Now, coming off a collision (altho with a 3B) that wiped out his season, and playing with a LF who has more range than Manny and Bay combined, I wonder if he'll be a bit gun-shy in CF and reduce his range, even if subconsciously. Crawford is used to, at least recently, playing LF with Upton in CF, whose range is seemingly limitless, so he'll be OK. But it's the CFs job to get everything he can. I hope Ellsbury is up for it. But I anticipate a few "I thought he would get to that" balls falling into LCF in the early weeks.

#9 JMDurron

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:15 AM

I share a defense worry, as well. For as long as he's played CF here, Ellsbury has had a stiff in LF. So going all-out for every ball that was even close was risk-free, in terms of collisions. Now, coming off a collision (altho with a 3B) that wiped out his season, and playing with a LF who has more range than Manny and Bay combined, I wonder if he'll be a bit gun-shy in CF and reduce his range, even if subconsciously. Crawford is used to, at least recently, playing LF with Upton in CF, whose range is seemingly limitless, so he'll be OK. But it's the CFs job to get everything he can. I hope Ellsbury is up for it. But I anticipate a few "I thought he would get to that" balls falling into LCF in the early weeks.


I'm not even remotely worried about this. The key will be how well Ellsbury reads the ball off the bat, and how well he chooses his routes to make the catch. The extremely rare "could run into Crawford" scenario might occur 14 times over 162 games (data courtesy of my rectal database), while reading the ball off the bat and picking the right route will be significant on every single ball hit to CF.

I haven't seen any ST games, outside of maybe 1 inning of scrubs against the Yankees on MLB Network. Has anyone who has watched more of the games formed an impression of how Ellsbury looks in CF, in terms of jumps and routes?

#10 BosRedSox5


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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:21 AM

Two hits (including a double) and a walk yesterday. He also scored twice and stole a base. One interesting thing too, is that even though he had one more plate appearances than any other player, he saw more pitches than anyone else. He got Texas pitchers to throw 25 total. That's 9-10 more than Pedroia, Crawford or Youk got.

Pretty solid debut.

#11 rembrat


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Posted 02 April 2011 - 08:49 AM

The walk really impressed me. He was tottally composed and in control. It was like watching Youkilis work a walk. Oh and it was against a tough, tough left handed pitcher in CJ Wilson.

#12 BosRedSox5


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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:40 AM

Well, the team overall has played poorly, but aside from AG, Ellsbury has looked the best in two games so far. He saw a lot of pitches (including what looked like a missed call on a strikeout looking), walked once and on a night where the ball didn't seem to be carrying well... hit a home run to right. Seems like the Sox are scoring runs, but the pitching just isn't getting it done. Yet.

#13 BosRedSox5


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Posted 17 April 2011 - 08:13 PM

So, Ellsbury hasn't really performed like the leadoff guy we'd hoped but he hit an absolute bomb to RF today. ESPN.com says 407 feet, it was absolutely crushed. Seems like it went further. At least one of these seasons we're going to see Jacoby with 20-25 homers. He might even touch 30 before his career is over.

#14 absintheofmalaise


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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:02 PM

So, Ellsbury hasn't really performed like the leadoff guy we'd hoped but he hit an absolute bomb to RF today. ESPN.com says 407 feet, it was absolutely crushed. Seems like it went further. At least one of these seasons we're going to see Jacoby with 20-25 homers. He might even touch 30 before his career is over.

I'm really very curious to find out what you're basing this on. Is it just some WAG or are you basing this on some sort of projection system? I think the most I've ever seen him projected to hit is around 20. If you're going to say something like this please be prepared to back it up with some evidence.

#15 BosRedSox5


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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:51 PM

Sorry, it's just a WAG. I didn't write a PhD level thesis on why I think Ellsbury will eventually hit for power. Just a feeling based on how far he drilled that one today and how he doesn't seem to be hitting well, yet exactly a third of his hits have been homers. Over 40% have been for extra bases. He just seems like a powerful guy, and all the 2011 projections for his power numbers seem comically low.

I know we don't want a bunch of wild predictions and nonsense flying around on the main board but I'll hang my hat on this one. I believe Ellsbury will have one season of 25 or more homeruns in his career. It may take years for be to be proven right or wrong, but I'll stand by it.

Edited by BosRedSox5, 17 April 2011 - 11:52 PM.


#16 absintheofmalaise


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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:21 AM

Sorry, it's just a WAG. I didn't write a PhD level thesis on why I think Ellsbury will eventually hit for power. Just a feeling based on how far he drilled that one today and how he doesn't seem to be hitting well, yet exactly a third of his hits have been homers. Over 40% have been for extra bases. He just seems like a powerful guy, and all the 2011 projections for his power numbers seem comically low.

I know we don't want a bunch of wild predictions and nonsense flying around on the main board but I'll hang my hat on this one. I believe Ellsbury will have one season of 25 or more homeruns in his career. It may take years for be to be proven right or wrong, but I'll stand by it.

I wasn't asking if you'd done a dissertation on Ellsbury. I just wanted to know why you think that a guy who hasn't ever hit double figures in HRs at any level of professional baseball and who no projection system I've seen has him coming close to hitting 20 HRs in a season would hit that many. Granted, he is in his power years now and the Sox might be able to move the RF bullpen fences in next year. That would certainly help him approach 20 in a season. With his approach at the plate and his past performance (and I am by no means some projections expert), I just don't see it happening.

#17 EddieYost

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:27 AM

I wasn't asking if you'd done a dissertation on Ellsbury. I just wanted to know why you think that a guy who hasn't ever hit double figures in HRs at any level of professional baseball and who no projection system I've seen has him coming close to hitting 20 HRs in a season would hit that many. Granted, he is in his power years now and the Sox might be able to move the RF bullpen fences in next year. That would certainly help him approach 20 in a season. With his approach at the plate and his past performance (and I am by no means some projections expert), I just don't see it happening.


I agree with this. I see ~20 as his upside. I think the only way he'll get there is to be more selective at the plate and look for pitches that he can drive.

Is there talk that they will move the RF fence in or is that just speculation?

#18 OttoC


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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:36 AM

Ellsbury also lead the club in home runs in spring training.

#19 redsox2020

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 12:08 AM

Ellsbury also lead the club in home runs in spring training.

And he's currently leading the club with 4, on pace for 43 ;) (obligatory SSS mention).

I just wanted to know why you think that a guy who hasn't ever hit double figures in HRs at any level of professional baseball and who no projection system I've seen has him coming close to hitting 20 HRs in a season would hit that many.

Haven't the scouts always said he was a strong kid who would grow into his power as his hitting developed? At the very least, I remember Johnny Damon's name being thrown around as a constant comparison. 20 seems reasonable. 30 still sounds like a reach, but stranger things have happened.

Edited by redsox2020, 19 April 2011 - 12:09 AM.


#20 BosRedSox5


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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:42 AM

http://www.hittracke...410&type=hitter

I don't know what, if anything this means but none of Ellsbury's 4 homers have been cheapies. All 4 have gone at least 400', reached over 100 MPH off the bat and cleared the wall by more than 10 vertical feet. They've also all been pulled. It's definitely a small sample size, but it seems weird that a guy who is not hitting real well otherwise (just 10 for his first 50, exactly .200) would be crushing such a high percentage of deep, line drive, home runs. Doesn't it seem like the homerun should be the product of seeing the ball well and good pitch selection? Anyway, Ellsbury may be on the way to a breakout season with 4 dingers in April and almost 2 weeks to play. I'd like to see what an outlier season does to all these projections.

#21 JMDurron

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:27 AM

http://www.hittracke...410&type=hitter

I don't know what, if anything this means but none of Ellsbury's 4 homers have been cheapies. All 4 have gone at least 400', reached over 100 MPH off the bat and cleared the wall by more than 10 vertical feet. They've also all been pulled. It's definitely a small sample size, but it seems weird that a guy who is not hitting real well otherwise (just 10 for his first 50, exactly .200) would be crushing such a high percentage of deep, line drive, home runs. Doesn't it seem like the homerun should be the product of seeing the ball well and good pitch selection? Anyway, Ellsbury may be on the way to a breakout season with 4 dingers in April and almost 2 weeks to play. I'd like to see what an outlier season does to all these projections.


If teams start adjusting and pitching him more to the outside part of the plate, I hope to see him go the other way for singles and doubles, like he did in 2007 and 2008. Power to the inside, contact to the outside, and he might just hit that ceiling that some folks here have been telling us about for years now. Back in 2008, when teams started busting him inside, he couldn't adjust, but maybe he is in the process of doing so, and it will be time to head back to the outside part of the plate again. A guy can hope, at least.

#22 TheShynessClinic


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Posted 09 May 2011 - 01:12 AM

17 game hit streak. .823 OPS on the season.

Is this hot streak? Or is Jacoby finally healthy, and putting it all together?

#23 John DiFool

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 08:44 AM

17 game hit streak. .823 OPS on the season.

Is this hot streak? Or is Jacoby finally healthy, and putting it all together?


He is striking out a lot more than he used to-20% of PA, when for his career he's been around 12%.

#24 bsj


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Posted 09 May 2011 - 09:09 AM

He is striking out a lot more than he used to-20% of PA, when for his career he's been around 12%.



Fair enough...but his OBP is still above his career avg, .350, and if he can just find a way to get that strikeout rate back back down into the low to mid-teens, that could be a factor in getting that number closer to .360, which is getting closer to the decent (albeit still not great) range for a top of the order guy.

The kid just needs to stay healthy. I think this season, if he stays healthy, he will take many of the steps forward we expected him to take post 2009...fingers crossed he does.

Edited by bsj, 09 May 2011 - 09:10 AM.


#25 MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 11:58 AM

It goes without saying that he's not as good as this 17-game streak, but just how luck-filled is it?

As noted above, he's striking out 19 percent of the time even during this run, and he's walked just five times (3/1 K/BB rate isn't exactly encouraging). So, how do you put up a .378/.418/.514 line when you're striking out and not walking?

Yes, a .475 BABIP. That's nuts.

For reference, over the same 17 games, when he's been almost as hot (.347/.373/.583), A-Gon's BABIP is only .386.

It's funny, though. Maybe you just don't exactly look for the walk when you're as hot as these guys are. Gonzalez' K/BB rate is actually WORSE than Ellsbury's (12K/3B - 4/1) in that time frame. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect someone to be patient at the plate when everything that comes off his bat is falling in.

#26 Eric Van


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Posted 09 May 2011 - 01:54 PM

It goes without saying that he's not as good as this 17-game streak, but just how luck-filled is it?

As noted above, he's striking out 19 percent of the time even during this run, and he's walked just five times (3/1 K/BB rate isn't exactly encouraging). So, how do you put up a .378/.418/.514 line when you're striking out and not walking?

Yes, a .475 BABIP. That's nuts.

For reference, over the same 17 games, when he's been almost as hot (.347/.373/.583), A-Gon's BABIP is only .386.

This is an important point. If you look at his play log and scorecards of all the games, you can see that without luck, his BABIP would only be .424. Maybe .407.

Seriously.

Popups: 0/1
Fly balls: 0/2
Deep fly balls: 1/1, 2B (near HR. If we discriminated between shallow and deep fly ball hits we'd have much better luck adjustments.)
Fliner (Fly): 2/6
Deep Fliner (Fly): 2/2, 2 2B. Neither remotely catchable, either
Fliner (Liner): 8/9, 4 2B
Liner: 4/6, 2 2B
GB: 11/31, 2B
Bunt: 0/1

FB%: 20
LD%: 27
GB%: 54

I'm not sure whether the 2/6 on Fliner (Fly) is lucky by one or not.
.800 on liners is lucky by a hit.
.355 on grounders for a guy with Ellsbury's speed is lucky by 2 hits: without them you'd have .290, and Crawford's lifetime grounder BABIP is .284.

So, three or four lucky hits in this streak.

Edited by Eric Van, 09 May 2011 - 02:25 PM.


#27 redsox2020

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 04:10 PM

As noted above, he's striking out 19 percent of the time even during this run, and he's walked just five times (3/1 K/BB rate isn't exactly encouraging).

I don't wanna say he's getting hosed by the umps, but it seems like Ellsbury has been taking a lot of close pitches for strike three so far this season. Looking at his 29 Ks in the logs: 11 are swinging, 16 looking and 2 thrown out at first on dropped strike three. Are stats kept on this and if so, how does this ratio compare to his previous seasons? Whether it's bad luck or just poor judgment, his numbers look better if some of those calls go the other way.

#28 Sprowl


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Posted 29 May 2011 - 11:04 PM

Over the last week, Ellsbury has turned into the leadoff hitter of our dreams. 7 runs, 8 hits, 2 HR, 4 SB, 7 walks in 6 games, and pitches seen per game: 25, 29, 24, 24, 24. He's wearing out the opposing pitchers from the first inning on. He battled Verlander about as well as a hitter can, and got a hit and a walk off him.

#29 Al Zarilla


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Posted 30 May 2011 - 01:31 AM

Over the last week, Ellsbury has turned into the leadoff hitter of our dreams. 7 runs, 8 hits, 2 HR, 4 SB, 7 walks in 6 games, and pitches seen per game: 25, 29, 24, 24, 24. He's wearing out the opposing pitchers from the first inning on. He battled Verlander about as well as a hitter can, and got a hit and a walk off him.

Quick scan of ESPN stats, Ellsbury has the second best OBP of all qualified AL leadoff hitters (Denard Span #1). OPS for leadoff hitters? Ells is #1. Fun fact: he's .004 behind ARod in OPS. Keep it up JE.

#30 Frisbetarian


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Posted 30 May 2011 - 07:02 AM

Using linear weights with park and positional adjustments, Jacoby has contributed more runs above average this season (almost 12) than all but 8 AL players. Remember, this is not a rate stat.

Observationally, which is all we have with the very limited data, he has been very good defensively in 2011, as well.

#31 luckysox


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Posted 30 May 2011 - 10:05 AM

Quick scan of ESPN stats, Ellsbury has the second best OBP of all qualified AL leadoff hitters (Denard Span #1). OPS for leadoff hitters? Ells is #1. Fun fact: he's .004 behind ARod in OPS. Keep it up JE.


It makes you realize just how much we missed him last season...his injury was so early and the press/team etc. made the situation so ugly that the fact that it really hurt the team last year became almost an afterthought. Everyone was caught up on Pedey and Youk and VMart going down...but if we were also missing this Ellsbury, there was never a chance, really.

#32 Van Everyman

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 10:12 AM

Fun fact: he's .004 behind ARod in OPS. Keep it up JE.

A fun fact not lost on Scott Boras I am sure. It's interesting how down folks were on JE based on one injury-riddled year. Looking back, it was his play in the second half of April in a lot of ways that kept them from completely falling off the map.

Edited by Van Everyman, 30 May 2011 - 10:18 AM.


#33 mikeot

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:29 PM

Looking back, it was his play in the second half of April in a lot of ways that kept them from completely falling off the map.


tru dat

#34 John DiFool

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:40 PM

A fun fact not lost on Scott Boras I am sure. It's interesting how down folks were on JE based on one injury-riddled year. Looking back, it was his play in the second half of April in a lot of ways that kept them from completely falling off the map.


Hell, Beckett suffered the exact same kind of doubts, and after he got healthy again went back to being the high-quality starting pitcher that he usually is.[/whatasurprise]

#35 Eric Van


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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:31 AM

I just checked my scorecards and verified that Jacoby has been victmized by two terrible CS calls (4/19, the non-interference call, and 6/5) without benefiting from a blown call the other way. That's the main reason his SB% rate is down from his career norm of 85% (assuming that bad calls have in the past evened out); he'd be at 83% instead of 76% with those extra two.

#36 mabrowndog


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Posted 07 June 2011 - 10:07 AM

The Herald's Scott Lauber has a great piece today on how Ellsbury trained his ass off to recover over the winter with a program designed to let his ribs fully heal without sitting on his ass.

Six days a week, beginning in early October, Ellsbury reported to the Phoenix-based Athletes' Performance, and in concert with the Red Sox training staff and agent Scott Boras' office, Hartman put him on a program to rebuild his core without rattling his ribs.

As the bones healed, Ellsbury began more intense exercises to stimulate "trunk stability and thoracic mobility," Hartman said. Soon, he added a shoulder strengthening program, and by December, after getting cleared by doctors, he was doing rotational exercises that preceded swinging a bat in January.

Ellsbury's goal was simple: He wanted to be ready to play from the moment he reported to spring training. While most players pace themselves during the workouts before the Grapefruit League schedule begins, he didn't want to waste any time in Fort Myers.

The most difficult part, especially for an athlete with track-star speed, was taking it slowly enough that his ribs healed properly before he intensified his workouts. There were times, [physical therapist Anna] Hartman said, when she had to pull back the reins.

"I had to get back to where I was, and then, from there, I could start getting into my strength training and all that," Ellsbury said. "That was the biggest challenge, just starting in a position where I'm not even at where I normally am. There was no time to rest, no time to waste."

And so, Ellsbury didn't make vacation plans. When the holidays rolled around, he flew his family to Arizona rather than return to his native Oregon, which would have necessitated missing physical therapy and training sessions.

"His physical therapy visits were up in the 60s and 70s, and he had less than five days missed," said Hartman, who has worked with Ellsbury for four years. "You can't ask for better compliance. He was here on Saturdays, even days that weren't official therapy days. It was really cool to see."



#37 luckysox


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Posted 08 June 2011 - 10:16 PM

Ellsbury is as irreplaceable to this team right now as anyone, including Gonzalez. He is that good, and in fact his success so far has almost hidden Pedey's lack of success. He's picked up Pedroia's role as fire starter for the offense. If we can get the two of them hitting at the same time, well Holy God; we'd be very, very good.

#38 luckysox


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Posted 08 June 2011 - 10:38 PM

Yeah, umm, so they probably won't be hitting together for awhile. Ugh.

#39 nvalvo

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 01:21 AM

Yeah, umm, so they probably won't be hitting together for awhile. Ugh.


Chin up, LuckySox! A Lowrie/Crawford platoon in the two hole will get it done if Pedroia has an extended absence.

#40 luckysox


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Posted 09 June 2011 - 06:12 AM

Chin up, LuckySox! A Lowrie/Crawford platoon in the two hole will get it done if Pedroia has an extended absence.

I totally agree and expect Francona would do that. Just hope Lowrie's shoulder gets healthy so we don;t see an extended Sutton-as-starter experiment.

#41 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 12:51 AM

Just updating to note that after 63 games and 280 PA, Jacoby's slashes are now very close to the best-case scenario I suggested in March.

Worst: .278/.329/.384
Mid: .295/.355/.431
Best: .310/.380/.478
through June 10: .316/.374/.482


Of course it would be optimistic to assume that's where he'll be when the year is done, but not irrationally optimistic. And that "mid" scenario is starting to look pretty conservative. Barring a catastrophic slump, I think we can say Ellsbury is delivering the breakout year we were hoping for on offense. He has gone in two-plus months from question mark to legit All-Star candidate. Not bad.

#42 SoxFanSince57


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 09:49 AM

Other teams will be ISO ways to find a hole in his plate coverage and/or effectively pitch around his hot bat. It will be interesting to if see teams start to throw more pitches off the plate to Ells in an attempt to get him to bite on pitches out of the zone. There seem to be a fair amount of quotes about Ellsbury's hitting from opposing managers. All this is to say Ells may come back to earth, but he has begun to get inside the heads of opposing managers and pitchers so I expect him to end up with some pretty decent stats. Would love to see his BB rate continue to climb.

#43 Savin Hillbilly


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:41 AM

An interesting thing about his plate discipline numbers: his swing percentage so far is the highest of his career--but the difference is mostly in his Z-swing component. His O-Swing% has been quite consistent over the years, ranging from a low of 24.4 in 2009 to a high of 26.9 in 2007. This year it's 26.7. These figures have generally been quite near league average (because the league O-Swing has gone up several ticks the last couple of years--perhaps due to PitchFX recalibration?--he's actually better than average this year).

On the Z-Swing% side, Ellsbury was slightly over league average in his 2007 stint, but has been well below it since: 58.8 in '08 and 57.6 in '09 where league averages were 65.4 and 66.0. This year he's right at league average (64.4/64.7). Interestingly, his Z-Contact% so far is a career worst (still pretty decent at 90.6%, but he's usually in the 95% range).

I think the story of this year is that Ellsbury has made a quantum leap in pitch recognition and/or confidence in same. He's seeing the pitches he can drive and pulling the trigger on them more consistently than ever before. Occasionally this leaves him more vulnerable to being fooled (hence the lower Z-Contact and higher K rate), but it allows him to make hard contact far more often (his LD% of 25.2 is way above career norms, as is the .166 ISO). This is a very good tradeoff. A higher BB rate would the cherry on the sundae, but it can wait.

#44 Eric Van


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 09:48 PM

An interesting thing about his plate discipline numbers: his swing percentage so far is the highest of his career--but the difference is mostly in his Z-swing component. His O-Swing% has been quite consistent over the years, ranging from a low of 24.4 in 2009 to a high of 26.9 in 2007. This year it's 26.7. These figures have generally been quite near league average (because the league O-Swing has gone up several ticks the last couple of years--perhaps due to PitchFX recalibration?--he's actually better than average this year).

On the Z-Swing% side, Ellsbury was slightly over league average in his 2007 stint, but has been well below it since: 58.8 in '08 and 57.6 in '09 where league averages were 65.4 and 66.0. This year he's right at league average (64.4/64.7). Interestingly, his Z-Contact% so far is a career worst (still pretty decent at 90.6%, but he's usually in the 95% range).

I think the story of this year is that Ellsbury has made a quantum leap in pitch recognition and/or confidence in same. He's seeing the pitches he can drive and pulling the trigger on them more consistently than ever before. Occasionally this leaves him more vulnerable to being fooled (hence the lower Z-Contact and higher K rate), but it allows him to make hard contact far more often (his LD% of 25.2 is way above career norms, as is the .166 ISO). This is a very good tradeoff. A higher BB rate would the cherry on the sundae, but it can wait.

A terrific analysis that I believe needs only one sentence changed (the one in bold).

First, it's not a quantum leap; it's the evolution and maturation of the major adaptation he made in 2009 at the start of June, when he hit .302 / .365 / .439 the rest of the way. That's why many of this saw this coming (someone has a sig where I quote the argument for his becoming a superstar.)

And it is not pitch recognition, which has always been terrific (making him an excellent two-strike hitter), it's pitch anticipation, looking for specific pitches much more often, rather that defensively reacting to whatever is thrown.

He used to have great numbers when behind in the count and relatively weak numbers when ahead -- a sure indication of defensive hitting and failure to take advantage of hitter's counts.

These numbers are all sOPS +, which is OPS+ relative to league in same split:

(I didn't even know this year's splits until I looked them up.)

After being ahead 2-0, after being behind 0-2:

2008: 69, 121
2009: 71, 226
2011: 213, 170

Ahead, even, behind in count

2008: 90, 97, 123
2009: 86, 91, 170
2011: 134, 171, 104

And he used to have tremendous splits where he had great numbers only in situations where you might expect him to look for his pitch and drive the ball versus just trying to get on base -- his numbers with the Sox ahead, 2 outs, weak hitter up next were astronomical, while his numbers with the score tied or Sox trailing, 0 outs, good hitter up next were terrible.

0 outs, 1 out, 2 outs:

2008: 78, 106, 111
2009: 85, 108, 136
2011: 123, 184, 120

Sox ahead, tied, behind

2008: 102, 91, 89
2009: 120, 93, 96
2011: 111, 164, 150

B-ref doesn't break down splits by batter following, but as of June 2009 they were startling. A big reason why he used to hit immensely better 8 and 9 rather than 1 is that he didn't have Pedroia following him, so he tried to drive the ball more rather than just get on base.

Now, you might point out that the 2009 numbers show no signs of an adaptation. But if we split them up, first two months versus last four, I'm fairly certain they would. His 2008 tendencies had become that much more pronounced in the first two months of 2009, which is why his numbers were way down. At that point I first discovered this phenomenon (tipped off by pitch/fx data that showed him leading the club at swinging at pitches in the middle of the zone but last in SA when he did, a huge red flag for defensive hitting) and posted about it here. At around that time they happened to drop him in the order, and he started making the adjustments he needed to make -- he started looking for pitches to drive regardless of situation, and started looking for pitches to drive when ahead in the count. Hence his 2011 splits are as predicted back then. (And, yes, the Sox definitely were aware of these tendencies.)

#45 phragle


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 09:52 PM

His .386 wOBA is only bested by Matt Kemp and Curtis Granderson for qualified center fielders. He needs to be extended. Has a superstar Boras client ever signed a contract extension before becoming a free agent?

Does anyone know a site where you can compare hitters by batting position? I bet he is one of the best leadoff hitters to boot.

#46 John DiFool

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 10:41 PM

His .386 wOBA is only bested by Matt Kemp and Curtis Granderson for qualified center fielders. He needs to be extended. Has a superstar Boras client ever signed a contract extension before becoming a free agent?

Does anyone know a site where you can compare hitters by batting position? I bet he is one of the best leadoff hitters to boot.


And to think that some were saying he shouldn't be the leadoff guy.

#47 absintheofmalaise


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 11:22 PM

And to think that some were saying he shouldn't be the leadoff guy.

I was one of those and I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

#48 E5 Yaz


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 11:24 PM

I'll also gladly admit to Abs being wrong

#49 SumnerH


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Posted 11 June 2011 - 11:42 PM

His .386 wOBA is only bested by Matt Kemp and Curtis Granderson for qualified center fielders. He needs to be extended. Has a superstar Boras client ever signed a contract extension before becoming a free agent?

Does anyone know a site where you can compare hitters by batting position? I bet he is one of the best leadoff hitters to boot.


I sorted teams by their split at leadoff, then pulled the primary leadoff hitters for the top several teams. If there's someone not on this list with better leadoff numbers than Ellsbury, he probably has a lot fewer appearances in the leadoff slot.

sOPS+ is the park/league adjusted OPS for the split in question--a 100 would be the adjusted league-average for leadoff hitters. Unfortunately baseball-reference doesn't have anything like wOBA or EQA in their splits, and fangraphs doesn't do splits by batting order position at all as far as I could see.

Sizemore: .286/.337/.649/.987 sOPS+ 170 (only 17 games)
Reyes: .340/.387/.519/.906 sOPS+ 152
Ellsbury: .335/.389/.486/.875 sOPS+ 144
McCutcheon: .261/.357/.478/.835 sOPS+ 132
Fukudome: .301/.415/.405/.821 sOPS+ 131
Weeks: .277/.353/.480/.833 sOPS+ 131
Kinsler: .236/.361/.434/.795 sOPS+ 122

There's a pretty compelling case that Ellsbury's in the top 3 for leadoff performance this year: Reyes is almost certainly better. You could make a case for Fukudome's OBP being undervalued by sOPS+, maybe you'd take his line over Ellsbury's. Anyone else is a tough argument.

Whether performance by position really matters much (and if so how much it's significant in a partial-year split) is another kettle of kraken entirely.

Edited by SumnerH, 11 June 2011 - 11:46 PM.


#50 HriniakPosterChild

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 12:37 AM

His .386 wOBA is only bested by Matt Kemp and Curtis Granderson for qualified center fielders. He needs to be extended. Has a superstar Boras client ever signed a contract extension before becoming a free agent?


I'm certain that Boras prefers that his clients go to arb each year to maximize their income and reach free agency at the earliest possible date. But Alex Rodriguez preferred to sign a multiyear deal with the M's when he became arb-eligible. That worked out okay in the long run.

(I am almost certain that the M's didn't buy out a free agency year. My point is that Boras really does let his clients figure out which way they want to point the car even if they do expect him to do much of the driving.)




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