301 replies to this topic

[FL4WL3SS]

I don't think so.



It's still not about Pittsburgh.

But what does Lucic and Horton have to do with Seguin's ice time?

[scotian1]

All this incident results in besides the injury is more ammunition to those like the New York Times writer who suggested in a story that maybe parents should think twice before putting their kids in hockey as the game is too violent. That story was the result of the medical report on concussions in hockey.

[Dropkick Izzy]

I don't see any obvious way to eliminate the stanchion risk without changing the participation rules - and that would fuck up the flow of hockey.

What about rounding the glass in that location and at the corners of the bench? The risk is still present but I think the impact would be reduced by not having a plane perpendicular to the lengthwise playing surface. Of course, the counter argument is that this would make it too difficult to assess whether pucks traveled out of play and back in again.

EDIT: I just saw Blacken's post in the March News thread. Great minds and all that...

Edited by Dropkick Izzy, 09 March 2011 - 05:10 PM.

[TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle]

They will probably add thicker and softer padding to those stanchions and to the glass.

Edited by TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle, 09 March 2011 - 04:12 PM.

[Curtis_Lesspanic]

I guess all that's left is to wait for the translation of the fall out from up north. I think they got it right too.

And to put said outrage into proper perspective:

Here's Max Pacioretty boarding Mark Eaton



Seems to me that from the time he crossed the blue line till he put his shoulder between Eaton's numbers, Max had a little more time to consider his next course of action than Chara

Here is Max's take afterwards:
“I remember going in on the forecheck and I thought he was going to turn into me but it didn’t end up that way,” Pacioretty said. “It’s a fast game and sometimes you make mistakes and I definitely made a mistake there and hurt our team. I obviously hurt that player. I’m disappointed with what happened and I wish I could take that back.”
What does the wise and sage coach yoda have to say about it?

The game misconduct triggers an automatic review by the National Hockey League and Martin was asked whether he thought Pacioretty would be suspended.
“I would hope not,” he said. “He’s not that kind of player. He went in with good speed to finish his check and their player turned at the last minute.”

Only he never turned once.

[AimingForYoko]

This won't end well.

It was the right call, but still.

[FL4WL3SS]

I hope you're not insinuating that Pacioretty deserved what he got.

[TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle]

Well, his skirt was VERY short.

[Curtis_Lesspanic]

I hope you're not insinuating that Pacioretty deserved what he got.

Nope, just saying that when a Montreal player can see a guy's numbers from blueline to endboards and still boards him Iron League style it's a "fast game" and he went in with "good speed" and "He's not that kind of player".
Chara has 13 years of being "not that kind of player" as opposed to fragments of three seasons for Max. Chara had a fraction of the time Pacioretty did to react. I don't see the same benefit of a doubt being afforded to him.

[Myt1]

But what does Lucic and Horton have to do with Seguin's ice time?

OK, I'll acknowledge you. You happy now, bitch?

[Jed Zeppelin]

Nope, just saying that when a Montreal player can see a guy's numbers from blueline to endboards and still boards him Iron League style it's a "fast game" and he went in with "good speed" and "He's not that kind of player".
Chara has 13 years of being "not that kind of player" as opposed to fragments of three seasons for Max. Chara had a fraction of the time Pacioretty did to react. I don't see the same benefit of a doubt being afforded to him.

He wasn't suspended or fined, what more benefit of the doubt do you require?

[MoGator71]

Wow, so which poor Canadien has to throw down with Chara next game to defend the honor of the team? Hal Gill?

Chris Nilan. Or Kordic's ghost. Too bad the deadline's passed, they could have traded for Trevor Gillies.

Shocked Chara didn't get a game or 2. And I thought these 2 teams were done but I see there's another one in Boston.

[TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle]

Nope, just saying that when a Montreal player can see a guy's numbers from blueline to endboards and still boards him Iron League style it's a "fast game" and he went in with "good speed" and "He's not that kind of player".
Chara has 13 years of being "not that kind of player" as opposed to fragments of three seasons for Max. Chara had a fraction of the time Pacioretty did to react. I don't see the same benefit of a doubt being afforded to him.

By whom? The league? Because they didn't suspend him. Here? Well, that's a mixed bag. At worst, people are saying it was irresponsible and unnecessary for Chara (mostly, by the way, because it was a sure interference penalty) to hit him but that he did not intend to injure him.

[The Four Peters]

He wasn't suspended or fined, what more benefit of the doubt do you require?

I think he means from the inevitable hue and cry that will come from up North.

At least, I think so.

[Curtis_Lesspanic]

He wasn't suspended or fined, what more benefit of the doubt do you require?

I wasn't referring to the league,I was referring to the Montreal media.
Edit: Sorry, I should have made my point a little clearer.

(skates to the box, feels shame)

Edited by Curtis_Lesspanic, 09 March 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle]

Ah, well, that's to be expected.

[Jed Zeppelin]

I wasn't referring to the league,I was referring to the Montreal media.

I see. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for reason and impartiality from the media or fans in any city, never mind Montreal.

[mikeford]

Color me pretty surprised the NHL got this right.

Apparently the dart board method does work, occasionally.

[Stevie1der]

Color me pretty surprised the NHL got this right.

Apparently the dart board method does work, occasionally.

I always thought they used this:

[The Four Peters]

That was actually funnier than I expected it to be.

[TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle]

I liked that the "Pushed a linesman in a fight."-"Was it funny?" trail only had one possible answer.

[Jed Zeppelin]

Also the double yes for Damien Cox. Altogether, a decent flow chart. I also liked "Dammit, Pronger!" Simple but effective.

[The Napkin]

I also enjoyed the "dammit, Pronger!"
downgoesbrown consistently brings the funny.

[AimingForYoko]

The flow chart never fails to crack me up.

[Haunted]

I love that chart.


I can't help but feeling very mixed on this. I think the correct decision was made - no intent to injure, no penalty besides interference (I dont mean called, I mean actual penalty committed), terrible luck with location on ice - but like others I'm sickened a little. I mean, fuck the Habs and fuck this guy, but man, no one wants to see this kind of thing happen.

The analogy to a trip and Malarchuk-like incident is apt, I think. Just an awful, awful incident.

Edited by Haunted, 09 March 2011 - 05:58 PM.

[Sausage in Section 17]

Habs fan checkin' in.

I'll start by saying that I think that was the single most sickening injury I have seen in sports EVER. There have certainly been worse outcomes, but as far as the camera actually documenting a collision, and then watching him lie on the ice, seeing the trainers right in his face and not being sure they weren't giving him mouth to mouth....I have never been quite as shaken up watching a sporting event before.

I don't think Chara had any intent, but I agree with everyone on here and some of the Habs players who said that he basically should be aware of his place on the ice and that it was a dangerous, irresponsible play. It's tough, and I know these things happen, but I do think there is a some kind of spoken or unspoken code among players to be aware of the true hazards such as this. Despite this, these things still do happen. There may not be a specific category within the rules that addresses this, but I think there should be. The fact that Pacioretty might never play again and there is no consequence to the Bruins doesn't feel right, Habs fan or not, and I'm worried that the league's failure to balance this will invite the players to do it. I get why there is no rule that accounts punishment based on the result of the play, but maybe there ought to be. I think suspending him might have been the safer, more responsible choice, even if for just 2 games.

The N.H.L. really needs to address how physical and increasingly dangerous the game is becoming along a number of dimensions, and this is just one of them. Obviously Bruin fans have their own list of grievances in this regard, and it sucks to see elite talents like Crosby, Lindros, etc. have head injuries limit their careers. Players are just bigger and faster then they used to be and Chara is perhaps the most dramatic example of this. He's a great player and he utilizes his size and skill to great advantage, but they have to find a way to keep the best, most exciting players as part of the game too.

[Manzivino]

I can't see a scenario in which Chara doesn't get suspended. He knocked out a Canadien, the officials assessed a major on the play (rightly or wrongly), and if the league doesn't suspend him the headline is going to be "NHL cracks down on hits that cause concussions, unless your team employs Colin Campbell's son."

Well, I was wrong. I'm very surprised that they didn't give him two games, as mentioned previously both to be consistent on cutting down on dangerous hits and to temper the Canadiens' desire to take justice into their own hands. I don't think Chara had any intent to seriously injure him, although there's a part of me full of speculation that wonders if he saw an opportunity to put Pacioretty into the bench to fire up his team and the timing just ended up horribly wrong. Like many, I feel sick that there's a player who barely avoided paralysis or death and there was no punishment handed down to the perpetrator. I also think the Bruins caught a huge break not losing Chara; the division is wide open after last night's game and with the Bruins already down 2 defensemen Chara not being suspended could very well end up being the difference in winning the division. And that makes me feel even sicker. Just a terrible situation.

Based on the league's response to both Cooke/Savard and Chara/Pacioretty ("based on the rules, there's nothing we can do as far as supensions") and their clear desire to cut down on this type of scenario, I wonder if we'll see them try to implement a "reckless endangerment" rule in the next CBA where minor supplemental discipline (1 to 2 games) is allowed in cases where the league decides the player making an illegal hit was out of control rather than intending to injure, headhunting, etc. - it would give them a lot more discretion in situations like this while the cap on suspension length would limit them from going too far..

[scotian1]

So I guess the only outcome of this event is that Pacioretty's career is most likely over and whether or not he has some permanent disability or not is yet to be determined. This all from the result of a reckless play.
That being said more things like this are inevitable given the nature of the equipment. (in 60's and 70's- shoulder and elbow pads were miniscule compared to the plastic coated armour they now wear)That along with recent rule changes prohibiting defenceman from holding up forecheckers have heightened the danger on the ice. The speed and recklessness of play has created many of these situations. ( I believe that the recklessness has been caused by the equipment that gives players a feeling on invincibility.

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

Weei.com

According to the Canadian Press, Montreal police have been 'inundated' with phone calls demanding Bruins captain Zdeno Chara's arrest.

Chara was not suspended Wednesday after his hit on Max Pacioretty sent the Canadiens forward into a stanchion and left him with a severe concussion and fractured vertebrae.

The calls reportedly began coming in heavily in the minutes following the league's ruling to not suspend the Bruins' captain. The police have requested the fans stop.

[scotian1]

Although this is not the case where this is going to happen, (ie arrest), this is most likely where this all is headed. Whether it is the result of a fight or a hit to the head, I can forsee the day when the courtroom is part of hockey. Still waiting for the Bertuzzi/Moore case.

[The Allented Mr Ripley]

Although this is not the case where this is going to happen, (ie arrest), this is most likely where this all is headed. Whether it is the result of a fight or a hit to the head, I can forsee the day when the courtroom is part of hockey. Still waiting for the Bertuzzi/Moore case.

Dino Ciccarelli says hello.

Edited by The Allented Mr Ripley, 09 March 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[Ferm Sheller]

If this was an arrestable offense, wouldn't Shane Hnidy be obligated to detain him?

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Dino Ciccarelli says hello.

Wasn't Dave Forbes of the Bruins actually tried for assault?

[Greg29fan]

Apparently Air Canada (one of the league's biggest sponsors) is none too pleased over headshots in general and this incident specifically.

http://bit.ly/hBlPyg

[Jed Zeppelin]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would choose not to fly Air Canada because of their sponsorship of the NHL. Of course they write the letter after this particular hit (which wasn't a headshot), probably after their phone calls to the police were ignored.

[Sausage in Section 17]

Here we go.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=357316

Montreal Canadiens forward Max Pacioretty spoke to TSN Hockey Insider Bob McKenzie from his hospital room on Wednesday evening about the injury that he suffered against the Boston Bruins on Tuesday night.

"I am upset and disgusted that the league didn't think enough of (the hit) to suspend him," Pacioretty told TSN. "I not mad for myself, I'm mad because if other players see a hit like that and think it's okay, they won't be suspended, then other players will get hurt like I got hurt."

"It's been an emotional day. I saw the video for the first time this morning. You see the hit, I've got a fractured vertebrae, I'm in hospital and I thought the league would do something, a little something. I'm not talking a big number, I don't know, one game, two games, three games...whatever, but something to show that it's not right."

"I heard (Chara) said he didn't mean to do it. I felt he did mean to do it. I would feel better if he said he made a mistake and that he was sorry for doing that, I could forgive that, but I guess he's talking about how I jumped up or something."

"I believe he was trying to guide my head into the turnbuckle. We all know where the turnbuckle is. It wasn't a head shot like a lot of head shots we see but I do feel he targeted my head into the turnbuckle."

[AimingForYoko]

Is everyone* in Montreal insane?

Calling the police to arrest Chara. I understand one idiot, because you hear those calls all the time (like calling the cops for chicken nuggets) but enough people called that they had to make a statement...what? really?


*yes I'm totally making generalizations.

[Sausage in Section 17]

Translation from this French site.


http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../107551/public

''The incident happened 24 hours ago. I saw the images of the hit and I can tell you I am surprised to be feeling as well as I am right now. What I saw on TV was just unbelievable to see.''

''I do not want to come off as someone who exaggerates'', said Pacioretty, who stayed clam throughout the interview. ''Yes, emotions are running high right now. But the reality is I was disgusted when I heard the news. There are not enough words I could use to tell you how I feel about the league's decision. In the new NHL, a defenceman does not have the right to hold me. So what he did is put his hand on my head and I wasn't able to defend myself. I could not move. He then sent me straight towards the stanchion and I lost consciousness right after. It's a disgrace they let this kind of stuff happen in the NHL. I only woke up when I was on the stretcher. I was telling the doctors to leave me alone because I felt ready to play. They quickly told me it wasn't the case and to not move. I saw Brian Gionta to my right while opening my eyes and P.K. Subban on the bench who was looking at me.''

How did he learn there would be no suspension?

''I was undergoing tests the whole day and I was concentrating on what I had to do. At one moment, a nurse told me there was no suspension. What is ironic is that people in the Habs brass came to visit me and told me it's time for the league to solve the problems. In reality, I do not wish any harm on Zdeno Chara. I only want this type of gesture to be out of my sport.''

Pacioretty wanted to be re-assuring:

''One of the doctors who saw me told me he did not want to come to work today because he was scared to see a person seriously hurt, after seeing the images on TV last night. Yes, I have a fracture in my neck, and I know it sounds scary, but it remains a fracture like any other. As for my concussion I feel very good right now and as soon as I can help my team, I will do it.''

I fucking love this kid and am glad he appears safe. It will be incredible if he can play again.

[kenneycb]

Chara never put his hand on Pacioretty's head. His arm was across the upper half of his chest but if he made any contact at all with his head it was barely on the chin.

[PedroSpecialK]

Yeah, the more I think about this the more the NHL probably got it right.

Still, tough to think there's a guy now with a broken neck and done for the season and no punishment. Not saying it's wrong, just feels weird.

Obviously, I love that there is no suspension because our most important player doesn't have to miss a game.

It isn't right though. The timing of the fist-first follow-through warranted a couple of games because of its recklessness.

[PedroSpecialK]

Habs fan checkin' in.

I'll start by saying that I think that was the single most sickening injury I have seen in sports EVER. There have certainly been worse outcomes, but as far as the camera actually documenting a collision, and then watching him lie on the ice, seeing the trainers right in his face and not being sure they weren't giving him mouth to mouth....I have never been quite as shaken up watching a sporting event before.

I don't think Chara had any intent, but I agree with everyone on here and some of the Habs players who said that he basically should be aware of his place on the ice and that it was a dangerous, irresponsible play. It's tough, and I know these things happen, but I do think there is a some kind of spoken or unspoken code among players to be aware of the true hazards such as this. Despite this, these things still do happen. There may not be a specific category within the rules that addresses this, but I think there should be. The fact that Pacioretty might never play again and there is no consequence to the Bruins doesn't feel right, Habs fan or not, and I'm worried that the league's failure to balance this will invite the players to do it. I get why there is no rule that accounts punishment based on the result of the play, but maybe there ought to be. I think suspending him might have been the safer, more responsible choice, even if for just 2 games.

The N.H.L. really needs to address how physical and increasingly dangerous the game is becoming along a number of dimensions, and this is just one of them. Obviously Bruin fans have their own list of grievances in this regard, and it sucks to see elite talents like Crosby, Lindros, etc. have head injuries limit their careers. Players are just bigger and faster then they used to be and Chara is perhaps the most dramatic example of this. He's a great player and he utilizes his size and skill to great advantage, but they have to find a way to keep the best, most exciting players as part of the game too.

Fantastic post and I could not agree more, both with you and with Pacioretty in his comments on the league's responsibility to make a statement that carelessness is flatly wrong. There had to be a suspension here, and the league completely blew it.

Edited by PedroSpecialK, 10 March 2011 - 12:22 AM.

[Jack Sox]

Fantastic post and I could not agree more, both with you and with Pacioretty in his comments on the league's responsibility to make a statement that carelessness is flatly wrong. There had to be a suspension here, and the league completely blew it.

As someone who is shocked that Chara wasn't suspended - not because I think it was deserved but because for once I think the league got it right - I really don't agree.

I think all of this talk about the players not respecting the rules and the league needing to make some sort of statement with Chara is a crock. If you suspend Chara there, you are basically running the risk that routine rub outs can't happen on a certain area of the ice. Is that really a road the NHL wants to go down without some sort of written rule in place first? I just don't see it.

[BucketOBalls]

Honestly, I would like to see in cases like this is big-ass fines. Something like x% of the players paycheck. This sends the message that recklessness won't be tolerated, but acknowledges cases that arn't intentional.

[Spacemans Bong]

As someone who is shocked that Chara wasn't suspended - not because I think it was deserved but because for once I think the league got it right - I really don't agree.

I think all of this talk about the players not respecting the rules and the league needing to make some sort of statement with Chara is a crock. If you suspend Chara there, you are basically running the risk that routine rub outs can't happen on a certain area of the ice. Is that really a road the NHL wants to go down without some sort of written rule in place first? I just don't see it.

How about yeah? Dude, a guy broke his neck here. The NHL is perfectly within the bounds of reason to say it is your responsibility as a player to make sure a guy doesn't break his neck on that section of the ice. If you have to give up a shot on goal then so what (if any player was being in Pacioretty's skates they'd rather have the shot on goal than the C4 fracture, so this is not some outrageous idea). The rules already tell us that there's certain things you can't do to prevent shots on goal. Work on changing the layout of that area to minimize it happening again but until then there are more important things than even your team's well being when you take the ice.

[Spacemans Bong]

Sounds like the league has vastly underestimated the enmity this decision would bring. MPs on the rampage, Air Canada threatening to pull sponsorship, emergency hotline gets bogged down from people complaining about Chara, lawyers pondering whether Chara could be charged with a crime, et al.

[FelixMantilla]

nevermind.

Edited by FelixMantilla, 10 March 2011 - 07:28 AM.

[The Four Peters]

How about yeah? Dude, a guy broke his neck here. The NHL is perfectly within the bounds of reason to say it is your responsibility as a player to make sure a guy doesn't break his neck on that section of the ice. If you have to give up a shot on goal then so what (if any player was being in Pacioretty's skates they'd rather have the shot on goal than the C4 fracture, so this is not some outrageous idea). The rules already tell us that there's certain things you can't do to prevent shots on goal. Work on changing the layout of that area to minimize it happening again but until then there are more important things than even your team's well being when you take the ice.

So when people get hurt, even when no rules are broken, then it's a suspension? What if Chara tripped him and he broke his neck sliding into the boards? Is it his responsibility to make sure he doesn't break his neck there?

Or is it only when Canadiens players get hurt?

Edit: I'm Ron Burgundy?

[Salem's Lot]

emergency hotline gets bogged down from people complaining about Chara,

Is the emergency hotline system different in Canada then it is in the U.S.? If it isn't then this is the only "protest" that I have a real problem with. Imagine needing an emergency response for something, and not being able to get through because people are complaining about a fucking hockey game.

[kenneycb]

Sounds like the league has vastly underestimated the enmity this decision would bring. MPs on the rampage, Air Canada threatening to pull sponsorship, emergency hotline gets bogged down from people complaining about Chara, lawyers pondering whether Chara could be charged with a crime, et al.

That sounds more like an overestimation of the collective intelligence of Canadiens fans. I know hockey is the driver of their economy there but this is a tad absurd.

[Spacemans Bong]

So when people get hurt, even when no rules are broken, then it's a suspension? What if Chara tripped him and he broke his neck sliding into the boards? Is it his responsibility to make sure he doesn't break his neck there?

Or is it only when Canadiens players get hurt?

Edit: I'm Ron Burgundy?

Well, rules were broken here.

I'll be honest, I don't know whether Chara should have been suspended or not. Pacioretty thinks he was targeted and they have history, but Chara has a clean record and certainly with his size he could do a great deal of damage if he wanted to.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume players doing the hitting to assume a greater level of responsibility in that section of the ice, and when a guy has a broken neck getting off without punishment leaves a bad taste in my mouth (I don't consider a game misconduct in a 4-0 game much of a punishment). That feeling is something I need to reconcile with Chara's conduct and my general opposition to the idea of outcome being a factor in NHL disciplinary proceedings, which I believe the NHL has admitted in the past. If I try and take your head off and I miss, that should get me the same punishment as if I knocked you out. This was gory but if Pacioretty got up and was OK, it's true we probably aren't having this discussion.

Obviously the complaining, especially by Air Canada (based in Montreal), is inspired primarily by this incident. But there's compelling reasons that the league needs to take this more seriously. The sports world is getting increasingly uncomfortable with the noggin being injured in sports, and we've had good and great players off the ice this past year or two from concussions.