286 replies to this topic

[Rasputin]

Their payroll is so low that they could try to pitch CC and Fielder on reuniting as the final pieces of what would look on paper like a perennial juggernaut. Hopefully the prospect of summers in Arlington will kill the idea for CC.

Put that team together with the Rays and the ALCS would be really fun to watch.

[OCD SS]

Sounds a lot more like the Rangers are set to drive up the price on CC in an attempt to keep the Yankees away from Wilson. Isn't it assumed that the CC will get more $ than CJ?

[tims4wins]

Sounds a lot more like the Rangers are set to drive up the price on CC in an attempt to keep the Yankees away from Wilson. Isn't it assumed that the CC will get more $ than CJ?

Exactly. This comment makes absolutely no sense:

A baseball source told ESPNNewYork.com today that the Texas Rangers, currently one win away from a second straight trip to the World Series but likely to lose starter C.J. Wilson to free agency over the winter, are preparing to make a strong bid to sign CC Sabathia if the Yankees ace chooses to exercise the opt-out clause in his contract, as expected.

Unless there is a known reason that Wilson wants to leave Texas, then how could Texas be in danger of losing him to free agency, but also have the $$ to sign CC?

[jon abbey]

It makes sense, presumably they value CC decidedly higher, as would anyone. Texas also may know, as you say, that Wilson wants to leave if he can get a comparable offer, since no one in their right mind would want to pitch in 120 degrees in Arlington all summer if they had comparable options.

NY really needs to get the Cashman deal finalized (the latest is that this will happen next week), so that they can do their best to extend CC a year or two before he opts out, if that's even a remote possibility. CC's opt-out date is 3 days after the World Series ends.

[Average Reds]

It makes sense, presumably they value CC decidedly higher, as would anyone. Texas also may know, as you say, that Wilson wants to leave if he can get a comparable offer, since no one in their right mind would want to pitch in 120 degrees in Arlington all summer if they had comparable options.

NY really needs to get the Cashman deal finalized (the latest is that this will happen next week), so that they can do their best to extend CC a year or two before he opts out, if that's even a remote possibility. CC's opt-out date is 3 days after the World Series ends.

How will that work?

Cashman: "Look CC, we want to lock you up before you even hit the market, so let's just work out an extension and you won't need to opt-out."

CC: "Fantastic. I'm the prime catch in this year's free agent crop, so I'll just take a modified version of the deal you offered my man Cliff Lee last year. So tear up my deal and I'll sign for 6 years and $140 million with a mutual option for the 7th year. And I'll also take an unlimited supply of Captain Crunch."

Cashman: "Uh, CC, you're missing the point. It's an extension, not a new contract."

CC: "Uh Brian, you're the one missing the point. I'm about to be a free agent. What possible incentive do I have to sign here for less than I could get on the open market?"

Cashman: "But I thought you said you liked it here?"

CC: "I do. And I'd really like it even more if you treated me like the free agent that I am and not some schmuck who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground."

Cashman (Blood draining from the face): "Uh ... OK. You get the Lee deal."

CC: "Brian, you are the motherf*cking bomb. You really are. But I'm a little hurt that you'd try to play me for a sucker, so I think you're going to have to guarantee that seventh year now."

Cashman: "(Sigh) OK."

CC: "So now that that's done, where the fuck did you put the Captain Crunch? I know it's here somewhere..."

Edited by Average Reds, 14 October 2011 - 04:57 PM.

[jon abbey]

Heh, I did say "if that's even a remote possibility".

[RedOctober3829]

How will that work?

Cashman: "Look CC, we want to lock you up before you even hit the market, so let's just work out an extension and you won't need to opt-out."

CC: "Fantastic. I'm the prime catch in this year's free agent crop, so I'll just take a modified version of the deal you offered my man Cliff Lee last year. So tear up my deal and I'll sign for 6 years and $140 million with a mutual option for the 7th year. And I'll also take an unlimited supply of Captain Crunch."

Cashman: "Uh, CC, you're missing the point. It's an extension, not a new contract."

CC: "Uh Brian, you're the one missing the point. I'm about to be a free agent. What possible incentive do I have to sign here for less than I could get on the open market?"

Cashman: "But I thought you said you liked it here?"

CC: "I do. And I'd really like it even more if you treated me like the free agent that I am and not some schmuck who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground."

Cashman (Blood draining from the face): "Uh ... OK. You get the Lee deal."

CC: "Brian, you are the motherf*cking bomb. You really are. But I'm a little hurt that you'd try to play me for a sucker, so I think you're going to have to guarantee that seventh year now."

Cashman: "(Sigh) OK."

CC: "So now that that's done, where the fuck did you put the Captain Crunch? I know it's here somewhere..."

Throw in the milk with the Captain Crunch and it's a deal.

[jon abbey]

CC's clubhouse presence is a definite factor here, I argued earlier in the year that he has become the real captain of the team.

But if you ignore that (which you shouldn't) and just focus on his performance, I'm not totally sure NY will go to seven years on him. He was decidedly mediocre the last two months of the season (after the SEA game where he came back in twice after rain delays), allowing a collective .858 OPS in his last ten starts before a meh postseason (although the rain and short rest made it hard to take much out of that specifically).

So I do think that NY should draw a line here, but I'm not quite sure where. Right now his remaining deal is 4/92, maybe I'd offer either 6/138 or 5/125, his choice. Almost every big FA contract in recent years is a bust (see the recent Joe Pos piece for specifics), at some point there will be at least some big budget GMs who are going to just refuse to make those commitments.

I asked this before, but if he opts out, does NY get a chance to offer him arb and get draft pick compensation?

[Jed Zeppelin]

I asked this before, but if he opts out, does NY get a chance to offer him arb and get draft pick compensation?

I don't know the answer to this, but Cot's explicitly states arb procedures for A-Rod's last contract (could have been offered arb after opting out) but doesn't mention any such thing under CC, so I would guess no based solely on that.

[OCD SS]

Cots doesn't mention it one way or the other, but the Yankees were able to offer A-Rod arb when he opted out, so I assume that Cashman at least knew enough to keep that clause in the contract.

[melonbag]

Cash made a mistake. He put in the clause in case CC didn't like NYC and wanted to leave. But he loves NYC and wants to stay, yet can still use the opt out to get more money.

Cashman put in the Yankees in a position where they can't win. If CC stinks, they are stuck with him. If he hates it in NY, then he can leave. If he loves it and pitches well in the first few years of his deal, he can still opt out and get a raise.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I could see CC getting a deal in the 100-125 million over 5 year range. Cash screwed up royally putting in the opt out clause, and I could see CC using the Cubs, Angels, Rangers, Red Sox, and possibly another surprise team or two. I can only hope they pay CC as much as possible though, then again from a realistic stand point I don't see him going anywhere...nothing wrong with asking for a raise after 3 great years though.

[jon abbey]

Cash made a mistake. He put in the clause in case CC didn't like NYC and wanted to leave. But he loves NYC and wants to stay, yet can still use the opt out to get more money.

Cashman put in the Yankees in a position where they can't win. If CC stinks, they are stuck with him. If he hates it in NY, then he can leave. If he loves it and pitches well in the first few years of his deal, he can still opt out and get a raise.

I'm going to start walking through my computer and punching people who keep repeating this silliness.

Cashman most certainly did not make a mistake here, as we've discussed ad nauseum in multiple threads previously (go to the first few pages of this one, they're linked). CC wanted an out clause wherever he signed, Cashman's mistake would have been not signing him since if he hadn't, NY doesn't come close to winning in 2009.

As it is, they've gotten three years of premium performance (at a premium price) from him and are under no obligation to resign him if they don't want to. Cashman's actual mistake was not building enough of a rotation behind CC over the last three years, specifically the non-trade for Haren in mid-2010.

[EvilEmpire]

If this is Cashman's big mistake I hope he makes more of them. The guy has performed. Too many high-priced FAs don't.

[Brianish]

Given CC's age, you almost wonder if the best long-term move is to let him walk. If he goes downhill as one might expect, Cashman gets lauded as an absolute genius; he effectively signed the top FA pitcher of the 2009 class for his prime years and ONLY his prime years.

[glennhoffmania]

Given CC's age, you almost wonder if the best long-term move is to let him walk. If he goes downhill as one might expect, Cashman gets lauded as an absolute genius; he effectively signed the top FA pitcher of the 2009 class for his prime years and ONLY his prime years.

No chance. You think NY will outbid Texas for Wilson, who is all of 4 months younger than Sabathia, let CC walk, and start 2012 with Wilson, Nova, Burnett, Hughes, and some reclamation project?

[jon abbey]

Sherman thinks it's possible they lose CC and don't land Wilson or Darvish:

http://www.nypost.co...FqenHtyDBZs4AIJ

The one ridiculous statement there is this:

"But I have yet to find a baseball executive or scout who views Wilson as an ace and very few who even think he is a No. 2. Heck, one member of the Yankees decision-making apparatus told me he thinks Wilson is a No. 4 on a championship-caliber team, which just blew me away."

Um, Joel, it might be worth noting that back in the real world, Wilson was the #2 guy last year on a WS team, and is the #1 guy this year on a WS team.

[glennhoffmania]

Sherman isn't saying that. He's saying that scouts have told him that.

[jon abbey]

Right, but it's his article, and to me it's ridiculous to include those scout's opinions without including what I added. I don't think anyone would argue that Wilson is a true #1, but calling him a #4 is pretty silly IMO.

[glennhoffmania]

Oh I agree with you. I also think it's odd that the only one who said Wilson is a 4 was NY. Trying to drive down the price?

[Brianish]

No chance. You think NY will outbid Texas for Wilson, who is all of 4 months younger than Sabathia, let CC walk, and start 2012 with Wilson, Nova, Burnett, Hughes, and some reclamation project?

That's why I specified long-term. Also why I said it might be a good idea, not that I think they'd do it. But, considering the potential tasty in next year's FA pitching crop, it might actually wind up being worth it.

[jon abbey]

Oh I agree with you. I also think it's odd that the only one who said Wilson is a 4 was NY. Trying to drive down the price?

Yeah, that was what I thought. I think he's a #2 who is extra valuable to NY because he's a LHP. On top of everything else, if NY loses CC and doesn't get Wilson, they're likely to have no lefties in the rotation next year, unless Banuelos is ready to make the jump.

[rembrat]

Joel Sherman reports with a 2 part tweet:

With Gm 7 now locked in, Sabathia has until Tues noon to alert #Yankees voiding final 4 yrs. Yanks fully expect, which is y they (cont)

Link

have been proactive, put together an offer to submit to CC to see if they can avoid him becoming free agent

Link

Edited by rembrat, 28 October 2011 - 12:47 PM.

[glennhoffmania]

Well what's the package? I'll guess 8/200, with an opt out after 3 years and a promise to not other arb if he opts out.

[rembrat]

Well what's the package? I'll guess 8/200, with an opt out after 3 years and a promise to not other arb if he opts out.

I'm going with 7/151 and an opt out after every year.

[glennhoffmania]

You're crazy. He ain't taking a pay cut.

[JohntheBaptist]

I say 7/170 and the opt out after year four.

[jon abbey]

I agree with Sherman that it'll be something like 5/125, with one or two options of some kind.

[melonbag]

lol about him getting another opt out.

[Rasputin]

lol about him getting another opt out.

Because obviously a player wanting an opt out and a team willing to give an opt out could never possibly come to an agreement with an opt out.

[rembrat]

"SI_JonHeyman: Cc sabathia is planning to opt out of his yankees contract by the monday night deadline, making him a free agent"

http://twitter.com/S...772166668075009

Guess he didnt like the initial offer.

Edited by rembrat, 30 October 2011 - 05:32 PM.

[EvilEmpire]

I'm curious what they offered him. While I like the big man, I think it may take too many years to keep him. I hope they don't pull another ARod. Just Thank the man for his service, shake his hand, and try to get through next year as best they can until Banuelos and Betances have another year under their belt and a potentially much, much better FA crop is available.Doubt that will happen though. More likely they just back the Brinks truck up.

[melonbag]

Let him test the market.
If CC loves NYC as much as they say, he'd give the Yanks a chance to match another offer.

Do I want him for 6 years? Probably not at the salary we're anticipating.
7 more years? Definitely not. Especially when we're feeling the effects of bidding against ourselves with ARod.

[jon abbey]

I agree with Sherman that it'll be something like 5/125, with one or two options of some kind.

Bingo to me.

[Average Reds]

Bingo to me.

CC did, in fact, opt out, but at the end of the day the deal he signed was a lot closer to what you and others had been suggesting all along than what I assumed, so kudos.

Edit: And now I see from the vesting option that he essentially got a 6 year deal. Still, this played out pretty close to how you had forecast, with CC never really hitting the market.

Edited by Average Reds, 01 November 2011 - 08:15 AM.

[jon abbey]

Technically he never opted out, he got the extension in exchange for not doing so.

[Average Reds]

Technically he never opted out, he got the extension in exchange for not doing so.

Yup. I see that now.

It's easy to get the details wrong when the only way you can get information is through radio reports until you can grab one or two hours at Starbucks...