75 replies to this topic

[Mugsys Jock]

The Red Sox are sitting with Ortiz's agents in the next couple of days to decide what to do next with regard to the $12.5 million option for 2011, and after that.

Management has had an admirable (I think) track record of loyalty when it comes to veterans who have been at the heart of the team and are clubhouse leaders, even in the face of potentially diminishing return on investment (Varitek, Lowell). That said, there is a limit to "goodwill" dollars that can be built into an annual budget.

I picked 'B' -- give him a 2-way option in 2012 at 6/10. Maybe let it vest automatically on 90 RBI.

Edited by Mugsys Jock, 27 October 2010 - 11:44 AM.

[TomRicardo]

I picked 'B' -- give him a 2-way option in 2012 at 6/10. Maybe let it vest automatically on 90 RBI.

Can't do that. You can do games played or PAs but not RBIs.

[Eric Van]

I used to be in favor of a two-year deal, but Adrian Gonzalez' off-season minor shoulder surgery has reduced the odds of his being traded this winter even further (they were already low, IMO), which means the odds of signing him next winter to share 1B / DH with Youk are good enough that you don't want to commit to a 2012 DH.

Now, if they can't re-sign Beltre*, that changes things. If that happens I might guarantee the second year now.

*It's odd that the second most frequently stated belief about FAs here on SoSH is that they always sign for the most money. The most frequently stated such belief is that Boras clients always, always sign for the most money. Which of course does not prevent most people (it seems to me, at least; maybe we need a poll) from thinking that Beltre will sign elsewhere. Do folks not believe we'll be the high bidder, after the year he just had, even though we were the high bidder both of the previous times he was FA? Something doesn't add up.

[OCD SS]

How come their isn't an option for "We're exercising the option and we'll talk about 2012 next offseason"?

Edit: lurker orr4num correctly points out that 2011 is next year. Now I feel old...

Edited by OCD SS, 27 October 2010 - 11:33 AM.

[yecul]

They should try to negotiate a 1 year deal for less money or take the option. Unless he's the roadblock to being able to retain Beltre and/or Martinez it's pretty clear he's a part of the '11 squad. Consider '12+ next offseason.

Regarding Beltre, I'm confused. He doesn't necessarily want the money and will sign for other reasons, but Boston will offer the money and he's turned them down previously when given a west coast long term offer of similar magnitude?

I think you are making the case for those arguing that there's a good chance he signs elsewhere.

Boston will put forth a strong offer for Beltre and I'd be very surprised if it was not one of if not the top offer.

[SoxFanSince57]

How come their isn't an option for "We're exercising the option and we'll talk about 2011 next offseason"?

That would be my preferred course of action.

[wutang112878]

That would be my preferred course of action.

Ditto. Considering the recent contracts for pure DHs, I would hope that Ortiz would realize he is slightly overpaid if the sox exercise the option

[Buzzkill Pauley]

How come their isn't an option for "We're exercising the option and we'll talk about 2011 next offseason"?

Too many complaints about those complex polls....so leaving off the obvious choice is the logical solution.

[curly2]

No matter what you tell him about the contract, you also have to have tell him, "You're not going to start much against left-handers." That might be as difficult for him to accept as getting less money.

[JMDurron]

How come their isn't an option for "We're exercising the option and we'll talk about 2011 next offseason"?

This would be my choice as well.

[yecul]

No matter what you tell him about the contract, you also have to have tell him, "You're not going to start much against left-handers." That might be as difficult for him to accept as getting less money.

IMO, you have to talk to Francona about that one.

[SoxVindaloo]

This would be my choice as well.

Me too--try not to foreclose any possibilities for next offseason now.

[Dick Pole Upside]

How come their isn't an option for "We're exercising the option and we'll talk about 2011 next offseason"?

Not trying to be a wise guy, but I think you mean talking about 2012 next offseason. The option for 2011 is due shortly after the World Series in a week or two.

[OCD SS]

Not trying to be a wise guy, but I think you mean talking about 2012 next offseason. The option for 2011 is due shortly after the World Series in a week or two.

Yep, but in my defense everyone else who responded seemed to read it the way I intended...

[Mugsys Jock]

That would be my preferred course of action.

Fixed.

[IpswichSox]

They should try to negotiate a 1 year deal for less money or take the option.

Also not trying to be a wise guy, but how would this work exactly and under what circumstances would Ortiz accept a deal like this? Why would he accept, say, $8 million in a one-year deal when he knows the team holds a $12.5 million option? The only way I could see him (or any player in a similar situation) taking less annually off of a team option is if he got more years guaranteed. I suppose Ortiz might accept $20 million/2 years or something, but how is it in his interest to accept less than $12.5 million in a one-year deal?

edit: spelling

Edited by IpswichSox, 27 October 2010 - 12:01 PM.

[Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat]

Also not trying to be a wise guy, but how would this work exactly and under what circumstances would Ortiz accept a deal like this? Why would he accept, say, $8 million in a one-year deal when he knows the team holds a $12.5 million option? The only way I could see him (or any player in a similar situation) taking less annually off of a team option is if he got more years guaranteed. I suppose Ortiz might accept $20 million/2 years or something, but how is it in his interest to accept less than $12.5 million in a one-year deal?

edit: spelling

If the team doesn't pick up the option, the $12.5 million disappears and becomes irrelevant. His value will be set by the market.
At that point, it is in his best interest to accept an $8-10 million offer from the Sox if there is nothing better out there for him from another team.

I'm not saying that's how this will or should play out, simply that it isn't impossible to play out this way.

[snowmanny]

Amongst these options I'd pick up the option and that is all. But I am thinking that perhaps I would do something that is not listed, namely tell him that we would like to pick up the option, but if he prefers to leave by declining arbitration that is OK.
If he's going to be here angry, that diminishes his value. And I do not want the DH spot locked up for 2012 with that FA class on the horizon.

[Pumpsie]

This would be my choice as well.

Mine as well. Silly poll leaving out the clearly best choice.

[shepard50]

Club sources have indicated to ESPNBoston.com that the Red Sox are inclined to pick up the option, but Ortiz has said he’s seeking a multi-year deal.

From ESPN's Jackie McMullen

I'd still pick up the option, and see about 2012 at the end of 2011. Even if you believe you can sign a multi-year deal at a lower annual cost, between the coming free agent class and the risk of decline, it seems a bad trade-off.

[BucketOBalls]

From ESPN's Jackie McMullen

I'd still pick up the option, and see about 2012 at the end of 2011. Even if you believe you can sign a multi-year deal at a lower annual cost, between the coming free agent class and the risk of decline, it seems a bad trade-off.

Same here. I think having a 1 year deal is the important thing. While it's possible you might be able to get him for less by declining the option and then seeing what the market is I don't think saving a bit of money(that probably doesn't help them anyway) is worth pissing off a guy who meant that much to the team.

[Lynchie]

You tell him that you are happy to have him for this coming year and pick up the option. Then you let him know that you are interested in talking to him about his future plans in baseball as the season progresses. Right now you are pleased to have him as the centerpiece of the lineup and there is much more to be done to gather the pieces required to put this team back in the World Series.

[teejay1324]

Picking up the option is probably the least complicated thing that can be done here. Really, really hard for a player who agreed to a contract to pout about his 12 million dollar option being picked up. The Sox might look bad to the fan base if they decline the option and then try and bring him back for less. Ortiz or his agent at least, has to be aware of what DHs have been signing for the last couple of off seasons, and just be happy with the 12 mill.

He's probably not worth the option, but after all he's done here for the team, I don't think it's a big deal to overpay in a situation where you probably don't have to.

[JimBoSox9]

Really, really hard for a player who agreed to a contract to pout about his 12 million dollar option being picked up.

Would you perhaps care to rephrase that in the form of a wager?

[teejay1324]

Would you perhaps care to rephrase that in the form of a wager?

I'll kindly decline. I mean yea he could but I don't think he'll win any sympathy from anyone who listens to the pouting..maybe if he realizes that he'll just take his money and try and have a good season.

[wutang112878]

I'll kindly decline. I mean yea he could but I don't think he'll win any sympathy from anyone who listens to the pouting..maybe if he realizes that he'll just take his money and try and have a good season.

It doesnt mean that will stop him. I am fairly confident if they exercise the option and he isnt putting up monster numbers early in the year he will be pouting and talking about all the pressure that is on him, etc just like he did this year at times.

[mahky bellhorn]

Would you perhaps care to rephrase that in the form of a wager?

You would have won that wager:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5740524

Frighteningly similar to the Randy Moss situation. If he's not willing to get on the same page as the FO, they may as well just cut him loose and let him take his whiney ass elsewhere.

[Lynchie]

You would have won that wager:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5740524

Frighteningly similar to the Randy Moss situation. If he's not willing to get on the same page as the FO, they may as well just cut him loose and let him take his whiney ass elsewhere.

David Ortiz is quoted in that article:
"I just want to cut out all the crap and go back to the guy I was before, a happy guy who doesn't have to be answering questions that have nothing to do with anything but controversy. I just want to be able to play baseball and have fun, like I used to," Ortiz told WEEI.com. "That's where I came back to not wanting just one year, because I know it's going to be just the same thing.

As soon as you struggle for a week, it's going to be the same thing. People saying you are old, saying you have no bat speed anymore. People talking all kind of crap. It's hard to avoid that because it's all over the place. You're a regular human being just like everyone else. It's not like you're in a cage, locked up and you come to the field and that's it. It's not like we don't watch TV, listen to the radio, read the newspaper. We are all connected to that stuff, especially here."

To which I say, "Yeah, just a regular guy that may have to be satisfied with making TWELVE MILLION DOLLARS in one year."

[OCD SS]

It's somewhat ironic that "the most clutch player in Red Sox history" is worried about such scrutiny.

[Foulkey Reese]

What does having a multi-year deal have to do with people ragging on him after a slow start?

It's amazing to me that people like Moss and Ortiz can make comments like that in this economic climate. The "bad" scenario for Ortiz here is that he gets $12 million to play one seasons worth of baseball. Christ

"That's where I came back to not wanting just one year, because I know it's going to be just the same thing.

Cry me a freaking river. I hope he walks now.

Edited by Foulkey Reese, 29 October 2010 - 11:37 AM.

[Red(s)HawksFan]

What does having a multi-year deal have to do with people ragging on him after a slow start?

Exactly what I was asking after reading his comments. Does he really think that having a multi-year deal is going to quiet boo-birds and media criticism if he limps out of the gate again? I seem to recall a lot of the talk about him as he struggled at the start of 2009 was concern and complaint that the Sox were "stuck" with him for another year and a half. So if he's signed up to a multi-year deal again, I can see that being a catalyst for scrutiny rather than a deterrent.

[Bowlerman9]

What does having a multi-year deal have to do with people ragging on him after a slow start?

It's amazing to me that people like Moss and Ortiz can make comments like that in this economic climate. The "bad" scenario for Ortiz here is that he gets $12 million to play one seasons worth of baseball. Christ

Cry me a freaking river. I hope he walks now.

Exactly. If he really wants a 2 year deal, take 2/14. Then he can sleep at night knowing he is signed for next year.

[Lose Remerswaal]

You would have won that wager:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5740524

Frighteningly similar to the Randy Moss situation. If he's not willing to get on the same page as the FO, they may as well just cut him loose and let him take his whiney ass elsewhere.

He's distracted? It's the offseason. Guess what? The offseason IS FOR distractions. Get in there, do your negotiating, and be ready for the season.

And don't sign a contract with an option year if you don't want the option year picked up.

[wutang112878]

It's somewhat ironic that "the most clutch player in Red Sox history" is worried about such scrutiny.

Is it possible that he no longer has his missing magical potion? I generally wouldnt take such a cheap shot but his complaining is getting out of hand.

Its really easy to see through his bs logic, he wants a long term deal because he knows his performance could easily decline and rapidly. The FO also realizes this but they arent taking cheap shots at him in the media. And if Theo did sign him to a 4yr/40M deal and he struggled he might not be facing as much 'will he be back' issues but there will be a lot more 'that contract was an awful idea' issues. If he wants to play the get attention from the media and try to win the public support game, come out and say 'I would like a contract to keep me here for a long time and end my career as a Red Sox', much more PR savy. Instead this whining makes him look pretty silly.

[soPhisHticated]

I think it's really simple. You tell Papi "Congratulations! We're picking up your option! Spring Training starts in February." And drop it there. I don't think there's any further explanation owed or needed. They were really close to DFAing/dealing him this year. He knows it. Here's $12M. Suck it up and play ball.

Assuming the Sox did take a pass on the option, my best guess is that the Sox want nothing more than a 2 year deal. I read "multi-year deal" as he's going to ask for 4 and be willing to enterain 3. I don't think that 3rd year is wise based on what we saw this and last spring and doubt the Sox want to go there. Sooner or later, he's going to slump and not come out of it. Plus, there's always the chance that negotiations go awry, a fan favorite ends up leaving town, and you take another PR hit.

I think bringing him back on the option is overpaying a bit, but when there are so many other moving parts to address it really does seem like the thing to do. If he does well this year, discuss a 2 year deal after the 2011 season.

[SoxFanSince57]

Peter Abraham framed it very well IMO.

I'm all for players getting whatever they can and David has every right to ask for a multi-year deal. But he agreed to a contract that includes a team option for 2011 that would pay him $12.5 million. Once he agreed to that, the Red Sox have the right to pick that up and he shouldn't have much to say about it.

If Boston is too tough a place to play on a one-year contract, then don't agree to that clause in the contract in the first place.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 29 October 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[dcb46]

If they insult him by declining the option and hoping to get him on the cheap he will be the Yankee DH in about 10 seconds. I am not prepared to swallow that, sorry. Sound him out about a 2-year deal, but pick up the option if there is any problem.

And then show him his stats against lefties and tell him the sad truth that he will not be starting against them.

[snowmanny]

If they insult him by declining the option and hoping to get him on the cheap he will be the Yankee DH in about 10 seconds.

And then Adam Dunn will be the Red Sox DH in 15 seconds. So Boston will have the advantage.

[HriniakPosterChild]

Peter Abraham framed it very well IMO.

If Boston is too tough a place to play on a one-year contract, then don't agree to that clause in the contract in the first place.

Well, how does one sign a contract with no final year?

[CR67dream]

Well, how does one sign a contract with no final year?

You can't, but you can certainly not agree to a final year at the complete and total discretion of the team.

I love Papi, but he isn't being blindsided here. It's what he signed up for.

[HriniakPosterChild]

You can't, but you can certainly not agree to a final year at the complete and total discretion of the team.

I love Papi, but he isn't being blindsided here. It's what he signed up for.

I love the guy too, but what he's bitching about would be true whether 2011 was an option year or the last guaranteed year of a multi-year deal.

The 4 year/$52M deal he signed in April 2006 turned out to be too team-friendly for his taste, but he only realized that after he put up a 161 OPS+ at the end of the '06 season (not that he could tell you what OPS+ is, but that's not the point). He was asked about it at the end of that season, and he kind of shrugged it off saying he'd get paid next time.

They all think they'll never break down. He was 30 at the time. (It happens to lots of people who aren't athletes, too.)

--
Edit: "s/but he'd what he's/but what he's/"

Edited by HriniakPosterChild, 29 October 2010 - 11:19 PM.

[wutang112878]

I love the guy too, but he'd what he's bitching about would be true whether 2011 was an option year or the last guaranteed year of a multi-year deal.

The 4 year/$52M deal he signed in April 2006 turned out to be too team-friendly for his taste, but he only realized that after he put up a 161 OPS+ at the end of the '06 season (not that he could tell you what OPS+ is, but that's not the point). He was asked about it at the end of that season, and he kind of shrugged it off saying he'd get paid next time.

They all think they'll never break down. He was 30 at the time. (It happens to lots of people who aren't athletes, too.)

Unfortunately he and his agent opted to sign a safe deal but with significant dollars [significant enough that if he managed his money correctly his children and potentially their children might not have to work]. He could have tried to get to free agency but decided not to do so, and ultimately hindsight being 20/20 he left money on the table. This is kind of the role of an agent, to get contract options for you, lay them out in simple terms, weigh the pros and cons and provide some advice. Oh and also remind you that regardless of how you are playing you are not a superhuman and ultimately will have a downward trend in your career.

So either his agent didnt clearly lay out the pros and cons, Ortiz didnt make peace with potentially sacrificing dollars to remove risk, or he understood all this and is now just being stubborn and spoiled about it. One other small detail he should consider, is that during the duration of the contract he was either the or one of the highest paid pure DHs in the game, also if the Red Sox exercise his option next year he will most likely be the highest paid pure DH in the game.

Look at guys like Tek and Schilling. They ultimately signed deals at levels the team didnt really want to go to, but they got it done by working with the team, being direct and not playing the drama/guilt game with the media. Because both of them understand that the public doesnt want to hear the top 1% of earners in the country complaining about their earnings or 'feelings'.

[Jack Sox]

Look at guys like Tek and Schilling. They ultimately signed deals at levels the team didnt really want to go to, but they got it done by working with the team, being direct and not playing the drama/guilt game with the media. Because both of them understand that the public doesnt want to hear the top 1% of earners in the country complaining about their earnings or 'feelings'.

I was with you until about here. Jason Varitek and Scott Boras probably pulled the pettiest leverage stunt I've ever seen in sports when their camp released a tidbit that Tek was thinking of retiring if the Sox didn't meet his demands. This was after the Sox offered him a take it or leave it deal worth 5 million and an option for 2010. What compounds this much more for me is this call was AFTER the guy turned down arbitration which would have likely netted him around 10-12 million. I lost an absolute ton of respect for the man after that.

Funny enough, I have zero problem with anything Ortiz said. Yeah it's fairly obvious that it's a ploy to leverage multi-year deal but I think he's being pretty sincere about his case. He wants the security of knowing that if and when things don't go well and everyone is on his case, the team is committed to him for more than the 2011 season. It probably isn't going to work out that way for him, but saying you hope they don't sign him now based on these comments is borderline absurd and don't even get me started on the Randy Moss parallel - that's just fucking insane. And for the record, where exactly is David Ortiz being greedy here? I'm serious, did I miss something? Because I've read his quotes and the only thing I can get out of them is that he wants a long term commitment instead of a 1 year deal. Who's to say he's not willing to take a big pay cut for more security in terms of a multi-year deal? Maybe I missed something, but I don't get where the vitriol is coming from.

And seriously, please stop complaining about athletes and their incredibly niche markets that place a high monetary value for their skills - when and if they might have an issue with their contract situation. Yes, the current economic climate sucks and yeah it's probably grating to hear about an athlete be pissed about making 10 million rather than 12. And yes, the majority of us will never sniff the type of money these guys make in a season in our entire lifetime. But this has been happening for how long now? How people can draw up so much emotion over it, I just don't understand.

[HriniakPosterChild]

Who's to say he's not willing to take a big pay cut for more security in terms of a multi-year deal?

Señor Ortiz himself.

Ortiz not taking pay cut to stay in Boston

The Boston Red Sox have the option of retaining the services of David Ortiz next season for $12.5 million. WEEI asked Ortiz if he'd take a pay cut to stay with the team and he indicated he would not.

"I don't feel like going anywhere else but if I have to, I have no choice," Ortiz told the station. "We'll see, we'll see how things go. We'll see. I took a pay cut already, five years ago. That's some homework for you."

Then there's this:

“A pay cut? Should I?” Ortiz playfully asked reporters.

And this:

When a writer asked David Ortiz if he’d be willing to take a pay cut to gain some security in Boston, Ortiz said, “Would you?”

“I did,” replied the writer.

Surprised, Ortiz thought about that. “I took a pay cut already, let me tell you, five years ago,” he said. “Think about it.”

[Jack Sox]

Señor Ortiz himself.

Ortiz not taking pay cut to stay in Boston

Then there's this:


And this:

Thanks for this, I had missed it, clearly.

It still doesn't really change anything for me. He wants to be back on his terms and the Sox apparently want him back on theirs. A compromise will be made somewhere along the way and David Ortiz will be DHing for the 2011 Boston Red Sox.

edit: don't post from iphone

Edited by Jack Sox, 30 October 2010 - 01:19 AM.

[wutang112878]

I was with you until about here. Jason Varitek and Scott Boras probably pulled the pettiest leverage stunt I've ever seen in sports when their camp released a tidbit that Tek was thinking of retiring if the Sox didn't meet his demands. This was after the Sox offered him a take it or leave it deal worth 5 million and an option for 2010. What compounds this much more for me is this call was AFTER the guy turned down arbitration which would have likely netted him around 10-12 million. I lost an absolute ton of respect for the man after that.

I was mainly, and should have clarified, referring to Tek's free agency when he signed his 4 year deal. The 2nd time around wasnt so great absolutely, but Tek also instructed Boras to only negotiate with the Sox while he was a free agent, and the threats were that he might consider offers elsewhere or retire. I also dont think the front office was scared whatsoever about Tek suddenly retiring, and his 'leak' thing was handled infintely better than whining to the media about the need for a long term deal. Leaks of 'I might retire' wont lead to much emotion from fans, but of a whine like 'Its so hard to play here on a 1 year deal' will. Its also worth noting that Tek never complained about his current contract or options he agreed to, take last year the Sox declined their option for this year and it cost him money. Tek understood the business side of baseball and didnt try to sway the public for help.

Funny enough, I have zero problem with anything Ortiz said. Yeah it's fairly obvious that it's a ploy to leverage multi-year deal but I think he's being pretty sincere about his case. He wants the security of knowing that if and when things don't go well and everyone is on his case, the team is committed to him for more than the 2011 season. It probably isn't going to work out that way for him, but saying you hope they don't sign him now based on these comments is borderline absurd and don't even get me started on the Randy Moss parallel - that's just fucking insane. And for the record, where exactly is David Ortiz being greedy here? I'm serious, did I miss something? Because I've read his quotes and the only thing I can get out of them is that he wants a long term commitment instead of a 1 year deal. Who's to say he's not willing to take a big pay cut for more security in terms of a multi-year deal? Maybe I missed something, but I don't get where the vitriol is coming from.

Ortiz also needs to recognize that the Sox might not want to even do a 2yr deal at anything >10M because they probably want the option of replacing Ortiz after this year if he declines or his performance is erratic again. Also, if he gets a significant multi-year deal would you agree he would just have another set of problems? Specifically the 'that contract was a mistake' set of problems? If so, his desires arent exactly logical unless his desires are simply about more guranteed money.

I personally dont think he is being greedy, just think he is handling it in the wrong way. The pleas to the public are just a silly way to try to negotiate with a front office that isnt emotional, stood by and supported him during his PED issue, and was probably very close to DFAng him a few times recently but didnt trash him in the media whatsoever. The same way we would critique George for blasting Yankeee players the front office had the opportunity to do that with Ortiz and didnt. So now when he plays the 'poor me' card, its foolish and the front office doesnt deserve to have to deal with it considering how well they have treated him during his various struggles.

And seriously, please stop complaining about athletes and their incredibly niche markets that place a high monetary value for their skills - when and if they might have an issue with their contract situation. Yes, the current economic climate sucks and yeah it's probably grating to hear about an athlete be pissed about making 10 million rather than 12. And yes, the majority of us will never sniff the type of money these guys make in a season in our entire lifetime. But this has been happening for how long now? How people can draw up so much emotion over it, I just don't understand.

If Ortiz came out when he was a FA and said 'I cant accept the Red Sox offer because I feel my value is higher than they are offering' I wont complain about his desire for more money. I also wont complain about him making $12M next year if they exercise the option even though its such a huge number in 'regular peoples pay' terms. But I wont sit by and applaud him for his negotiating skills when he whines to the media to try to sway public opinion about his 'feelings' and the need for 'security' when his potential paycheck dictates that he is very well paid in both real world terms and market value of DH terms and he agreed to the option in the first place.

If Ortiz came out and said 'I want a long term deal because I feel thats my market value', then I would simply discuss the merits of that. But trying to sway the public, and therefore indirectly asking for my help [in a very small way], opens him up to criticism by the fans and its fair to discuss the ethics of his actions and our feelings abaout it. If a down on their luck unemployed friend complains about trying to pay the mortgage its one thing, but if a rich friend complains about paying for a large boat that person opens themselves up to these emotional responses and I dont think its an unreasonable response. Ortiz went down this path by asking for the publics help, its a bad PR move, and then it becomes fair to us to say 'you make so much more than me, dont whine to me about it, and dont try to use me to get even more money'. I dont think that is an unreasonable response or an emotional one, just a fact of the matter response.

Edited by wutang112878, 30 October 2010 - 01:22 AM.

[Jack Sox]

I was mainly, and should have clarified, referring to Tek's free agency when he signed his 4 year deal. The 2nd time around wasnt so great absolutely, but Tek also instructed Boras to only negotiate with the Sox while he was a free agent, and the threats were that he might consider offers elsewhere or retire. I also dont think the front office was scared whatsoever about Tek suddenly retiring, and his 'leak' thing was handled infintely better than whining to the media about the need for a long term deal. Leaks of 'I might retire' wont lead to much emotion from fans, but of a whine like 'Its so hard to play here on a 1 year deal' will.

This is where we differ. It leads to a shit ton of emotion from this fan. Threatening to retire AFTER you've willingly turned down 10-12 million in arbitration - when the team won't meet your demands is so far and beyond what anything Ortiz has done here, IMO.

I personally dont think he is being greedy, just think he is handling it in the wrong way. The pleas to the public are just a silly way to try to negotiate with a front office that isnt emotional, stood by and supported him during his PED issue, and was probably very close to DFAng him a few times recently but didnt trash him in the media whatsoever. The same way we would critique George for blasting Yankeee players the front office had the opportunity to do that with Ortiz and didnt. So now when he plays the 'poor me' card, its foolish and the front office doesnt deserve to have to deal with it considering how well they have treated him during his various struggles.

You lose me here again. "Probably very close". You have absolutely no clue if this is remotely true one way or another. Personally, I don't the Red Sox ever considered DFAing him. If he was such a liability, they would have phantom DLed him or some such nonsense. He's been too iconic in his time here to just be flat out released. The Sox have a thumb on the pulse of how that would have been perceived.

If Ortiz came out when he was a FA and said 'I cant accept the Red Sox offer because I feel my value is higher than they are offering' I wont complain about his desire for more money. I also wont complain about him making $12M next year if they exercise the option even though its such a huge number in 'regular peoples pay' terms. But I wont sit by and applaud him for his negotiating skills when he whines to the media to try to sway public opinion about his 'feelings' and the need for 'security' when his potential paycheck dictates that he is very well paid in both real world terms and market value of DH terms and he agreed to the option in the first place.

You don't have to. I pretty much agree with you here, and for the record, I was just addressing the topic itself and not your post.

[nvalvo]

Well, whatever we tell him, I hope Theo doesn't let him walk.

Astonishingly (to me, at least), he's a Type-B FA.

[sheamonu]

I can't believe he's Type B. $10m per for 2 sounds about right to me but I'm pretty sure it won't to him. I'd guess that we are going down the route of simply picking up the option, seeing what happens and putting off any negotiation for a year. The focus of negotiation this year will likely be on Crawford and bullpen help and Theo's mantra will likely be "two headaches at a time is enough".

[wutang112878]

This is where we differ. It leads to a shit ton of emotion from this fan. Threatening to retire AFTER you've willingly turned down 10-12 million in arbitration - when the team won't meet your demands is so far and beyond what anything Ortiz has done here, IMO.

Ok, I can see how thats frustrating. And personally Teks thing didnt bother me as much and I think Tek handled his situation better PR wise, so I am probably a bit biased when I say I have more respect for that.

You lose me here again. "Probably very close". You have absolutely no clue if this is remotely true one way or another. Personally, I don't the Red Sox ever considered DFAing him. If he was such a liability, they would have phantom DLed him or some such nonsense. He's been too iconic in his time here to just be flat out released. The Sox have a thumb on the pulse of how that would have been perceived.

In 09 he hit 243 in april with a 623 OPS, in 2010 he hit 143 with a 524 OPS in both of those months his bat speed looked very bad, and for a DH to put up those numbers I would think they would have at least considered DFAng him. Even if they werent close to that him my larger point is still valid that they handled that situation very well and showed him tremendous public support. I personally think he should consider that in his actions as a result.

You don't have to. I pretty much agree with you here, and for the record, I was just addressing the topic itself and not your post.

Gotcha, I just wanted to point out that I dont just complain about guys salaries or their stances on market value without being properly provoked, but because of what Ortiz said he has opened up to these complains from fans.