452 replies to this topic

[filthywater49]

Also, in case no one saw this, Rosell is limited new club memberships to those who are related to a current member, have already been a member before, or are under 14. This is to keep Barca for "our boys," according to him. So, yeah, fuck you, foreign supporters. Also, everyone should do their best to forget that Ronaldinho was a Rosell/Laporta signing and that he will almost certainly continue to bring in foreign players as he sees necessary.

[TapeAndPosts]

There's really two distinct financial issues. One is the lack of discipline on signing players. The other is shady accounting and spending vast sums of money at nightclubs or whatever. The former you would like to improve, especially never doing anything like what we did with Zlatan again, but ultimately that will be judged on the pitch as you say. The latter just needs to be cleaned up regardless, assuming it exists as Rosell says it does, but I agree that making this feud as public as it is is not helping anything. I applaud Rosell straightening out the books, but not waging a PR campaign against Laporta while he's doing it.

Meanwhile there's a Champion's League game in an hour. Valdes is apparently sick so Pinto gets a start. Xavi's Achilles being rested is translating into a Mascherano start, which I kind of suspected, but I didn't expect to see Maxwell in the midfield:

Pinto
Alves, Piqué, Puyol, Abidal
Mascherano, Busquets, Maxwell
Messi, Villa, Iniesta

I expect Sergio to step up to hold that midfield together, letting Javier play further back. Rubén Miño has been called up as a backup goalkeeper.

[kenneycb]

Isn't Pep not that big a fan of Rosell? I seem to recall a fair amount of push back. I know Cruyff doesn't like him, to put it mildly but wasn't sure about everyone else.

[filthywater49]

There's really two distinct financial issues. One is the lack of discipline on signing players. The other is shady accounting and spending vast sums of money at nightclubs or whatever. The former you would like to improve, especially never doing anything like what we did with Zlatan again, but ultimately that will be judged on the pitch as you say. The latter just needs to be cleaned up regardless, assuming it exists as Rosell says it does, but I agree that making this feud as public as it is is not helping anything. I applaud Rosell straightening out the books, but not waging a PR campaign against Laporta while he's doing it.

Meanwhile there's a Champion's League game in an hour. Valdes is apparently sick so Pinto gets a start. Xavi's Achilles being rested is translating into a Mascherano start, which I kind of suspected, but I didn't expect to see Maxwell in the midfield:

Pinto
Alves, Piqué, Puyol, Abidal
Mascherano, Busquets, Maxwell
Messi, Villa, Iniesta

I expect Sergio to step up to hold that midfield together, letting Javier play further back. Rubén Miño has been called up as a backup goalkeeper.

Wow. Rather than play Bojan up front and put Iniesta in an anemic (by Barca standards) midfield, he plays Maxwell as a midfielder. It certainly seems like Bojan's window of opportunity might have closed.

[TapeAndPosts]

Wow. Rather than play Bojan up front and put Iniesta in an anemic (by Barca standards) midfield, he plays Maxwell as a midfielder. It certainly seems like Bojan's window of opportunity might have closed.

Yeah, I'm.... kind of surprised. With Xavi and Pedro both less than 100% I thought this match would be a good place to play Bojan and Mascherano but I was only half-right. Xavi, Pedro and (very late) Keita came in for a few minutes at the end, but not a sign of Bojan, though he was listed on the bench. I believe he had minutes in every game this year before the last one; maybe they have decided to give him a couple games off to clear his head.

For what it's worth, here are some rumors about Inter, Juventus and Arsenal all tracking Bojan in case Barcelona is making him available. To someone like Arsene he probably has all the looks of a talented player who desperately needs a change of scene and could be pried away at low cost.

Anyway, Barça 2-0 Copenhagen, another game we won because we have Messi. His first goal was sick, shot just behind one defender and just in front of another. The second goal in stoppage time was just the exclamation point. And another game where Villa was offsides at least once on a would-be goal and had several decent shots blocked. If this guy ever figures out how to start scoring again, this is going to be some kind of football team.

[Zososoxfan]

Yeah, I'm.... kind of surprised. With Xavi and Pedro both less than 100% I thought this match would be a good place to play Bojan and Mascherano but I was only half-right. Xavi, Pedro and (very late) Keita came in for a few minutes at the end, but not a sign of Bojan, though he was listed on the bench. I believe he had minutes in every game this year before the last one; maybe they have decided to give him a couple games off to clear his head.

For what it's worth, here are some rumors about Inter, Juventus and Arsenal all tracking Bojan in case Barcelona is making him available. To someone like Arsene he probably has all the looks of a talented player who desperately needs a change of scene and could be pried away at low cost.

Anyway, Barça 2-0 Copenhagen, another game we won because we have Messi. His first goal was sick, shot just behind one defender and just in front of another. The second goal in stoppage time was just the exclamation point. And another game where Villa was offsides at least once on a would-be goal and had several decent shots blocked. If this guy ever figures out how to start scoring again, this is going to be some kind of football team.

I wasn't surprised and was happy to see Bojan on the sidelines. I thought Maxwell played well, he gets great services from the flank. Interesting to see Sergio and Masch playing together. I recall only seeing/hearing Sergio once or twice - don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

On offense, instead of having Iniesta play the Xavi role, Messi, Iniesta, Villa, Maxwell, and Alves all took turns running into the center of the pitch and being target men up front. It was total football in a strict sense and it did generate a lot of chances (at least in the first half, didn't watch the 2nd as closely). Messi's first was just beautiful - the Spanish announcers were talking about how it took a deflection for a couple minutes when I was just thinking it would be quite rare for a deflection like that to go perfectly into side netting (read: they are ass clowns).

All in all, a unremarkable game for the Blaugrana (for their standards) while they try to sort out their finishing.

Pinto's hair was a riot.

[TapeAndPosts]

Interesting to see Sergio and Masch playing together. I recall only seeing/hearing Sergio once or twice - don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Yeah, so I was totally wrong in my earlier post when I said I expected Busquets to step forward (literally) in Xavi's absence. Instead they started playing their alternate formation where Busquets falls back to between Pique and Puyol, while Alves and Abidal push forward on the wings. Mascherano was further up with Maxwell. I thought their flow was very good, particularly in the first half. It is nice to see Alves, Abidal and even Pique pushing forward on the attack — as long as they don't get beat back when they lose possession, of course. This is an advantage of playing a high percentage possession game, but it's cost them some of their goals against this season when they push it too far and get burned. I hope they are figuring it out; it had been a month since our last clean sheet.

Pinto's play was reassuring, even if his hair was troublesome. Do we know whether he's going to be the first choice keeper for the Copa del Rey this year?

[filthywater49]

Pinto's play was reassuring, even if his hair was troublesome. Do we know whether he's going to be the first choice keeper for the Copa del Rey this year?

I actually found his play quite worrying. He was absolutely incapable of kicking the ball past the halfway line. This led to multiple turnover in our own half, and could definitely bite us in the ass at some point.

I would be shocked if he wasn't the starter for Copa games.

[Zososoxfan]

I actually found his play quite worrying. He was absolutely incapable of kicking the ball past the halfway line. This led to multiple turnover in our own half, and could definitely bite us in the ass at some point.

I would be shocked if he wasn't the starter for Copa games.

1:08 in particular, 1:18 for joy.

[TapeAndPosts]

1:08 in particular, 1:18 for joy.

Nice video.

Speaking of Pinto, Copenhagen has accused him of cheating by whistling to trick Cesar Santin into thinking the officials had ruled him outside, saving Barça from a potential one-on-one situation, and UEFA is investigating. I think it's a bullshit move if true — amusing, but still bullshit. Distracting the other side is fine in other ways but not imitating the referee's whistle. He could face a two-match Champion's League ban, which means if Valdes is healthy we won't even notice. If Valdes is sick or hurt again we could be screwed, however.

Lineup against Zaragoza:

Valdés
Alves, Piqué, Puyol, Abidal
Busquets, Iniesta, Keita
Messi, Villa, Pedro

[Zososoxfan]

Nice video.

Speaking of Pinto, Copenhagen has accused him of cheating by whistling to trick Cesar Santin into thinking the officials had ruled him outside, saving Barça from a potential one-on-one situation, and UEFA is investigating. I think it's a bullshit move if true — amusing, but still bullshit. Distracting the other side is fine in other ways but not imitating the referee's whistle. He could face a two-match Champion's League ban, which means if Valdes is healthy we won't even notice. If Valdes is sick or hurt again we could be screwed, however.

Lineup against Zaragoza:

Valdés
Alves, Piqué, Puyol, Abidal
Busquets, Iniesta, Keita
Messi, Villa, Pedro

I can't imagine they would suspend him from whistling. That's kind of absurd. It's like trying to psych out an opposing shooter taking a free throw, or icing a kicker - bad taste and not necessarily effective, but not illegal.

As for the game, I just turned it on in time to see the goal. Very nice pass from Villa. The play really shows Villa's value because he doesn't have to score to be productive - he's a great conduit for this offense. Yes, his goal scoring will only open things further, but the guy is a complete player.

In the limited parts of the game I've seen, it looks like Alves isn't being asked to track back as much, resulting in more of a 3-4-3. My guess is that Pep gives him more reign to go upfield against shite opponents.

Great to see Pedro has recovered. He's become a very valuable player to FCB.

[TapeAndPosts]

I can't imagine they would suspend him from whistling. That's kind of absurd. It's like trying to psych out an opposing shooter taking a free throw, or icing a kicker - bad taste and not necessarily effective, but not illegal.

It's different, though, because he's imitating the referee in particular. He could have started singing Elvis songs or yelling "Ha!" and it wouldn't make a difference, but trying to specifically trick the opponent into thinking the referee has blown his whistle (which apparently he likes to do in practice also) is not just distraction, it's deception. You're not allowed to put on a referee's jersey and start handing out red cards to the other team, either. Of course, Santin is a moron for stopping his run without seeing the linesman's flag up, but that's another story.

As for the game, I just turned it on in time to see the goal. Very nice pass from Villa. The play really shows Villa's value because he doesn't have to score to be productive - he's a great conduit for this offense. Yes, his goal scoring will only open things further, but the guy is a complete player.

Agree 100%. I missed this match but I found the goal on YouTube and it was a very nice through-ball by David. I commend him for continuing to play well in other aspects of the game while his goal draught continues. I get nervous about having two games, four goals, and all of them by Messi. Villa's multidimensional play helps reassure me we're not a one-man team.

Meanwhile Real Madrid crushed Racing 6-1 with four (!!) goals for Cristiano. I would feel better if we were running up such margins — Barça has not scored more than 3 goals in La Liga in the eight games so far, while Madrid scored 6, 4, and 6 in their last three matches.

On the other hand, we've beaten Atletico away, Athletic Bilbao away, and Valencia at home. Who has Real Madrid beaten? Espanyol at home and a lot of relegation fodder — they have literally played only that one team in the top half of the league table. If they're still still running up the score at the beginning of December, after they've had Atletico, Athletic and Valencia as well as El Clasico at Camp Nou, then we can talk.

[Zomp]

What do Barca fans make of Alves pulling the stunt he did last game?

Have any of the spanish press written about it?

[TapeAndPosts]

What do Barca fans make of Alves pulling the stunt he did last game?

Have any of the spanish press written about it?

Actually very little has been made of this either in the Barça blogs I follow or the Spanish press. Some write-ups do not mention it at all. My general impression from reading comments is that most Barça fans think that

a) Ponzio hit Alves in the head and genuinely merited a red card, and
b) Alves greatly exaggerated how hard he'd been hit to make sure the referee knew Ponzio merited a red card.

So I think the bulk opinion, at least where I've looked, is that the acting can be excused to make sure the official was aware since the sending off was justified. That seems to match with some write-ups like goal.com "While the Brazilian defender did overplay in this situation, the red card's validity was out of question" or ESPN's which simply records "Leo Ponzio was sent off for striking out at Alves".

Not every Barça fan feels that way, like this guy who considers Alves's behavior "inexcusable" and worries that genuine fouls are already not being called on Sergio Busquets because of a reputation for diving.

My own opinion from watching the video is pretty close to the majority view. Alves was not trying to get the guy sent off until he was smacked in the side of the head, but after that happened, he decided he was going to do everything in his power to get the red card raised. It doesn't really bother me; if there had been no contact and it was complete fakery I would call it bullshit, but Ponzio genuinely delivered a jab to Alves's ear for no apparent reason; after that kind of idiocy he loses my sympathy. Yes, Dani exaggerated his pain, but deliberate blows to the head are straight red cards regardless of how much damage is done. We shouldn't get into the business of trying to distinguish unacceptable blows to the head from acceptable ones.

Here is some video, best shot is around the one minute mark:

[teddykgb]

That's quite embarassing. I'm sure there's better video than that somewhere, but it looks like absolutely nothing. Hard to even say that it's intentional, most people get hit in the head harder than that on the T. Maybe there is a rule that all hits to the head are red, I really don't know, but a red card is such a severe penalty for that situation that it's incredibly unjustified. I don't like to assume intent on the part of the tackler or the diver, i think we get into that far too much as spectators of this sport when the reality is that everythign moves far too fast for there to be much calculated thought, but now we've got to deal with this nonsense off the ball as well.

[filthywater49]

That's quite embarassing. I'm sure there's better video than that somewhere, but it looks like absolutely nothing. Hard to even say that it's intentional, most people get hit in the head harder than that on the T. Maybe there is a rule that all hits to the head are red, I really don't know, but a red card is such a severe penalty for that situation that it's incredibly unjustified. I don't like to assume intent on the part of the tackler or the diver, i think we get into that far too much as spectators of this sport when the reality is that everythign moves far too fast for there to be much calculated thought, but now we've got to deal with this nonsense off the ball as well.

Are you kidding me? You don't even think it's intentional? Go watch some other angles. He clearly did it on purpose. Your arm doesn't just jab at an opposing player's head (from behind) unless you mean it to. I agree that the red is severe, but he fucking punched someone in the head from behind. He's gone. He knows the rule. Also it's pretty likely that the linesman told him what happened; it's not like things were just moving so fast (they weren't, anyway) that the ref couldn't keep up and was forced into a snap decision.

Did Alves ham it up? Of course. But that's the risk an opposing player takes when they intentionally strike someone in the head off of the ball. If you get caught, you're gone, and you should be.

[teddykgb]

I'm looking at a 4 x 4 youtube box, I said it's hard to know if it is intentional. I didn't see the rest of the game, I have no idea what would cause the player to be angry and start taking shots at the head, and I can see something like that happening on accident, no matter how much you're making it into an assassination attempt. I really see only one egregious act in the entire video, and it involves the Barcelona player making a complete fool of himself and his team, not the player who garnered a red.

edit: came off as overly cranky as most things do in the morning, not meant to be snarky

Edited by teddykgb, 26 October 2010 - 07:45 AM.

[Zomp]

I think punching him in the face is a harsh way of putting it. It looks more like he flicked his ear.

[Zososoxfan]

Are you kidding me? You don't even think it's intentional? Go watch some other angles. He clearly did it on purpose. Your arm doesn't just jab at an opposing player's head (from behind) unless you mean it to. I agree that the red is severe, but he fucking punched someone in the head from behind. He's gone. He knows the rule. Also it's pretty likely that the linesman told him what happened; it's not like things were just moving so fast (they weren't, anyway) that the ref couldn't keep up and was forced into a snap decision.

Did Alves ham it up? Of course. But that's the risk an opposing player takes when they intentionally strike someone in the head off of the ball. If you get caught, you're gone, and you should be.

Put me in this camp. The ref looks like he had his back toward the play, meaning the linesman would've had to call it in. Dani is a known diver, so what do you expect if you cheap shot him? Sure, it's not how I play the game (I only return cheap shots,try not to fire the first salvo) and it's not how I prefer the game to be played by pros, but these guys are trying to get any advantage they can.

Has anyone figured out a good way to prevent diving yet?

[teddykgb]

I think it is clear that the linesman was calling it in, you can see him talking into his headset as he walks over. That doesn't change much, if anything it's more of a reason to show a yellow instead of a red. And saying that he's a known diver and you should know better than to touch him is pardoning the criminal. This has nothing to do with diving, this isn't something that happens during the course of play, two guys running and sliding at one ball. I think a lot of the simulation that happens in those instances is either desperation or anticipated contact. This is a much more ridiculous situation and it had no bearing on scoring opportunities, advantage, or anything of the sort. Just a player making a huge scene out of nothing away from the ball to get a player a red card.

[Zososoxfan]

I think it is clear that the linesman was calling it in, you can see him talking into his headset as he walks over. That doesn't change much, if anything it's more of a reason to show a yellow instead of a red. And saying that he's a known diver and you should know better than to touch him is pardoning the criminal. This has nothing to do with diving, this isn't something that happens during the course of play, two guys running and sliding at one ball. I think a lot of the simulation that happens in those instances is either desperation or anticipated contact. This is a much more ridiculous situation and it had no bearing on scoring opportunities, advantage, or anything of the sort. Just a player making a huge scene out of nothing away from the ball to get a player a red card.

First off, looking at the play in a vacuum, yes, it could've only been a yellow.

But as you admit, it was called in by a linesman, which means what he saw was a blatant, not-in-the-course-of-play strike to the head (albeit a seemingly soft one). That's the key for me - this wasn't a tug or a shove, which would've likely earned him a yellow, it was a slap/punch to the dome and that shit's never gonna fly. The infraction is red-worthy, regardless of DA antics. Do harder and more malicious slide tackles get yellows instead of reds? Yeah, but hitting a guy in the head is an easy call.

[TapeAndPosts]

Like Zoso, what was most important to me was the head contact, not what Alves did afterwards. I totally agree that it didn't look like a very serious hit - although I have to say, from the distances that the cameras recorded it, it's hard to be totally sure. And this is the point for me; I don't want referees out on the pitch going through the thought process of, "Okay, he hit that guy deliberately on the head, but it looked like a pretty gentle hit on the head, so play on." Allowing a head strike that you can get away with, any head strike you can get away with, sends a message that head shots are okay in some circumstances. Then you'll have guys trying to hit each other on the head but hoping to get only a yellow card for it, and that's just not the road we want to go down. David Villa hit somebody in the face a few weeks ago, that wasn't very hard either, and he got shown a red and rightfully so; I was all over his ass for being an idiot. I don't really care if Dani danced Swan Lake afterwards; Ponzio was dumb enough to (in my opinion) deliberately, not in the course of play, turn himself into a slap boxer, and I'm glad he was sent off.

Not to interrupt the discussion, but it's time to get our Copa del Rey on. I have to admit I didn't even know a place called Ceuta existed. This little anti-Gibraltar, a tiny outpost of Spain across the Mediterranean in North Africa, and its Segunda B team are playing host to Barcelona. In the style department, Barça did manage to arrive in Ceuta by helicopter, although unfortunately they did not rappel down directly onto the pitch.

This is a great opportunity to see some Barça B players and borderline-first teamers get some playing time. It's also a chance for some young players who have not been having the success or the playing time they (and we) hoped for a chance to do something good. Not that I'm looking at you or anything, Bojan.

Pep called this "the most dangerous match of the year". He means for God's sake don't lose to a Segunda B team or they'll never let you live it down.

Pinto
Adriano, Bartra, Fontàs, Maxwell
Mascherano, Thiago, Keita
Jeffren, Pedro, Bojan

[TapeAndPosts]

This year, the Segunda B team that gets to eliminate Madrid is Real Murcia, who just a few years ago were in the Primera. They fell hard and fast.

And speaking of not living it down, just quoting AusTex's old post, Real Madrid just got held to a 0-0 draw by Segunda B club Murcia, despite starting Cristiano and subbing in Higuain.

[Zososoxfan]

Like Zoso, what was most important to me was the head contact, not what Alves did afterwards. I totally agree that it didn't look like a very serious hit - although I have to say, from the distances that the cameras recorded it, it's hard to be totally sure. And this is the point for me; I don't want referees out on the pitch going through the thought process of, "Okay, he hit that guy deliberately on the head, but it looked like a pretty gentle hit on the head, so play on." Allowing a head strike that you can get away with, any head strike you can get away with, sends a message that head shots are okay in some circumstances. Then you'll have guys trying to hit each other on the head but hoping to get only a yellow card for it, and that's just not the road we want to go down. David Villa hit somebody in the face a few weeks ago, that wasn't very hard either, and he got shown a red and rightfully so; I was all over his ass for being an idiot. I don't really care if Dani danced Swan Lake afterwards; Ponzio was dumb enough to (in my opinion) deliberately, not in the course of play, turn himself into a slap boxer, and I'm glad he was sent off.

Not to interrupt the discussion, but it's time to get our Copa del Rey on. I have to admit I didn't even know a place called Ceuta existed. This little anti-Gibraltar, a tiny outpost of Spain across the Mediterranean in North Africa, and its Segunda B team are playing host to Barcelona. In the style department, Barça did manage to arrive in Ceuta by helicopter, although unfortunately they did not rappel down directly onto the pitch.

This is a great opportunity to see some Barça B players and borderline-first teamers get some playing time. It's also a chance for some young players who have not been having the success or the playing time they (and we) hoped for a chance to do something good. Not that I'm looking at you or anything, Bojan.

Pep called this "the most dangerous match of the year". He means for God's sake don't lose to a Segunda B team or they'll never let you live it down.

Pinto
Adriano, Bartra, Fontàs, Maxwell
Mascherano, Thiago, Keita
Jeffren, Pedro, Bojan

1 bona fide starter and 3 regulars (no, Bojan doesn't count)? B side indeed. I actually would really like to see this game to check them out, although I'm the same kind of person who enjoys leveling up their characters in RPGs. Is this game being broadcast stateside?

[TapeAndPosts]

1 bona fide starter and 3 regulars (no, Bojan doesn't count)? B side indeed. I actually would really like to see this game to check them out, although I'm the same kind of person who enjoys leveling up their characters in RPGs. Is this game being broadcast stateside?

Seeing a first team/second team hybrid is always fun. I am watching it online at atdhe.net.

[TapeAndPosts]

Bojan hit off the crossbar in rather spectacular fashion. I think somewhere in Madrid there's a little voodoo doll of him, right next to the one for Villa.

But I will give him credit for a pretty assist to Maxwell for the first goal.

Also liked Pedro's nice hustle goal. 2-0 victory, nothing to pat ourselves on the back over, but got the job done. Better than 0-0, certainly — just to pick a score out of a hat.

[TapeAndPosts]

Rumors abound, apparently mostly from Sport, that Barça is interested in Dutch midfielder Ibrahim Afellay. Afellay has stated he will not sign a new contact with PSV Eindhoven, leading to reported interest from Barcelona, Inter, Liverpool, Everton, Juventus and of course Arsenal, and those are just the teams I saw mentioned in two minutes googling. Barça's interest is being parsed by many as an admission that Cesc is out of reach for the time being, with their financial issues finally starting to catch up with them and preventing the fee Arsenal demands from being furnished. Of course, the conspiracy theory would be that they are trying to motivate Cesc to be more forceful in demanding a transfer if he sees his destined spot being taken. Meanwhile, picking this guy up would fill the all-important "Guy with Ibrahim somewhere in his name" slot that we have sorely lacked these last few months, so we've got that going for us.

Some video:


Meanwhile, as mentioned in the Arsenal thread, Arsene is at it again, apparently trying to sign away 15-year-old Barça midfield prospect Sergi Samper for the Gunners. Apparently he's the new Xavi, but aren't they all? While making fun of Wenger is always good fun — just imagine him lurking outside the youth academy in that coat, candy and contracts in hand — I have to admit I find the proprietary attitude a lot of Barça fans adopt towards our youngsters to be a bit over the top. The truth is, we can't find room for every single cantera product on the first team, and the apparent expectation that the kids should be so grateful to be in La Masia that they should just wait faithfully until their time comes someday at Camp Nou without any thought of going elsewhere is a bit ridiculous. I don't want to lose another player of Cesc's quality either, but when your youth academy is churning out high quality players with regularity, it's just inevitable that some of them will strike out for elsewhere to find minutes and glory. I just hope if they do let this guy get away, then they've calculated that he's more Merida than Fabregas.

[RIRedStockings]

Rumors abound, apparently mostly from Sport, that Barça is interested in Dutch midfielder Ibrahim Afellay. Afellay has stated he will not sign a new contact with PSV Eindhoven, leading to reported interest from Barcelona, Inter, Liverpool, Everton, Juventus and of course Arsenal, and those are just the teams I saw mentioned in two minutes googling. Barça's interest is being parsed by many as an admission that Cesc is out of reach for the time being, with their financial issues finally starting to catch up with them and preventing the fee Arsenal demands from being furnished. Of course, the conspiracy theory would be that they are trying to motivate Cesc to be more forceful in demanding a transfer if he sees his destined spot being taken. Meanwhile, picking this guy up would fill the all-important "Guy with Ibrahim somewhere in his name" slot that we have sorely lacked these last few months, so we've got that going for us.

Some video:


Meanwhile, as mentioned in the Arsenal thread, Arsene is at it again, apparently trying to sign away 15-year-old Barça midfield prospect Sergi Samper for the Gunners. Apparently he's the new Xavi, but aren't they all? While making fun of Wenger is always good fun — just imagine him lurking outside the youth academy in that coat, candy and contracts in hand — I have to admit I find the proprietary attitude a lot of Barça fans adopt towards our youngsters to be a bit over the top. The truth is, we can't find room for every single cantera product on the first team, and the apparent expectation that the kids should be so grateful to be in La Masia that they should just wait faithfully until their time comes someday at Camp Nou without any thought of going elsewhere is a bit ridiculous. I don't want to lose another player of Cesc's quality either, but when your youth academy is churning out high quality players with regularity, it's just inevitable that some of them will strike out for elsewhere to find minutes and glory. I just hope if they do let this guy get away, then they've calculated that he's more Merida than Fabregas.

Re: Wenger...if he is going to continue to "cherry pick" kids from other team's youth systems than he has to accept the fact that other teams are going to go after his "adult" better players. And I know, Barca fans (myself included) can have a "proprietary attitude" about our youth system's players, but who can argue with the results? I will point out, however, that between La Cantera and La Masia there has been (and continues to be) a ton of money spent and a lot risks involved. The money is spent on developing players, not only from a playing standpoint but also feeding and housing them, educating (programming?) them, etc--so in many ways the overall system is like a military academy. And if they don't produce high-quality players, they're lose the war with the "fatter" Real Madrid. (hmmm...sound familiar with another rivalry we all love?)

Edited by RIRedStockings, 29 October 2010 - 09:59 AM.

[TapeAndPosts]

Re: Wenger...if he is going to continue to "cherry pick" kids from other team's youth systems than he has to accept the fact that other teams are going to go after his "adult" better players.

I think all Barça fans can agree on that.

Yesterday's game was the most fun all year. I watched it twice. 5-0 over a solid side like Sevilla can't be bad, and Messi was Messi, but Villa's brace made it really something special. His first goal in particular was a delight to behold, the overrun, bringing back the ball, arcing a perfect shot to the far side of the net. I especially enjoyed Leo and David's interaction. It was Messi who gave Villa the ball on that goal, and Messi there and waiting to get the ball back certainly didn't make it easy for Sevilla to collapse multiple defenders on Villa. If both keep playing like this, it will be very difficult for the other side to know who the hell to try and defend.

[Zososoxfan]

Just a ho-hum Barca bump.

Xavi, meanwhile, also admitted he might not be as effective in a team like Real Madrid as he is for Barca and Spain.

"Let me say one thing: I depend on my team-mates. My football and my passing would be worthless without my team's help. That's something which is very clear to me," he said.

"Sometimes I start thinking and I look at Madrid for example, who have truly great players, but I'd struggle with them. They play through the middle and I need players who open the play down the flanks, who make diagonal runs, who leave space for me in the centre and who never stop moving."

http://soccernet.esp...cc=5901&cc=5901

[TapeAndPosts]

Looks like the Ibrahim Afellay transfer is rising out of the usual morass of innuendo and rumor and into actual reality. Barça's negotiations have been confirmed by Zubizarreta on the official site and Rosell on Barça TV. Meanwhile PSV are resigned to losing him.

Seems like a smart move to me. There's the usual resistance from the culés who are certain all answers can be found within the cantera, especially after Thiago had a fine game against Ceuta. The key is that Afellay's contract expires after this season, so he can be had for short money — around €3 million by all reports. He's nice insurance for Xavi's Achilles. If he's a revelation, they can extend him. If he's not great, or the team wants to clear a bigger role for Thiago, or they find the money to go out and get Cesc or Pastore, they can let him walk in June. It leaves them a lot of options. Nice bargain hunting for a team that seems suddenly concerned with their finances.

Also a nice game against the Yellow Submarine today. First half was a little painful with the phantom offsides not just costing us a goal but also setting up Villarreal for the equalizer, but the second half they rose to the occasion and made sure the linesmen won't have to hide their faces in Catalonia for the rest of their lives. Messi remains revelatory, and he now has infinity goals in his last five matches, but Villa is inspiring much more confidence these days as well. Seeing the two of them work in tandem is finally what we signed up for. Even Bojan scored a goal against Ceuta! Of course, Messi had to cue it up about one meter outside the line for him, but we'll take what we can get. Overall, good feelings as El Clasico looms a little more than two weeks ahead.

Edited by TapeAndPosts, 13 November 2010 - 10:03 PM.

[Zososoxfan]

It's official: Afellay to join Barca in January

[TapeAndPosts]

It's official: Afellay to join Barca in January

One more Dutchman in Barcelona. Apparently all that remains (besides waiting for January) is working out the personal terms. Wondering if Barça is going to scuttle the flexibility I alluded to above and sign him to a long-term deal.

WIll he be able to play in the Champions League? I've heard conflicting reports.

[filthywater49]

One more Dutchman in Barcelona. Apparently all that remains (besides waiting for January) is working out the personal terms. Wondering if Barça is going to scuttle the flexibility I alluded to above and sign him to a long-term deal.

WIll he be able to play in the Champions League? I've heard conflicting reports.

I would think that the idea would be to not use him in the CL, but that this is a depth-move. As such, he'd feature more against weaker domestic opponents, right?

[mikeford]

PSV made Europa League this year and Affelay has played in those matches, so it is my understanding he would be cup-tied and not able to play in the CL. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but UEFA's rules page appears to make no distinction between CL and Europa league when discussing these types of matters.

[TapeAndPosts]

PSV made Europa League this year and Affelay has played in those matches, so it is my understanding he would be cup-tied and not able to play in the CL. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but UEFA's rules page appears to make no distinction between CL and Europa league when discussing these types of matters.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. If you just google "Afellay cup-tied" you find a lot of people saying he's not cup-tied. But wikipedia says "UEFA club football regulations state that, with very few exceptions, players who play in a European Club competition are subsequently cup-tied with respect to all European football for the remainder of the season," which would definitely rule him out, and some other sources seem to agree, so that seems most likely.

Then there's this comment thread, where someone confidently claims only your second Europa pick-up is cup-tied in the CL. I don't even know.

[filthywater49]

Yeah, I think you're probably right. If you just google "Afellay cup-tied" you find a lot of people saying he's not cup-tied. But wikipedia says "UEFA club football regulations state that, with very few exceptions, players who play in a European Club competition are subsequently cup-tied with respect to all European football for the remainder of the season," which would definitely rule him out, and some other sources seem to agree, so that seems most likely.

Then there's this comment thread, where someone confidently claims only your second Europa pick-up is cup-tied in the CL. I don't even know.

Commenters to that site are generally idiots.

On a related note, if anyone knows a Barca forum with better content than this thread, please share.

[mikeford]

Yeah, I think you're probably right. If you just google "Afellay cup-tied" you find a lot of people saying he's not cup-tied. But wikipedia says "UEFA club football regulations state that, with very few exceptions, players who play in a European Club competition are subsequently cup-tied with respect to all European football for the remainder of the season," which would definitely rule him out, and some other sources seem to agree, so that seems most likely.

Then there's this comment thread, where someone confidently claims only your second Europa pick-up is cup-tied in the CL. I don't even know.

From the Player Eligibility section of the UEFA website:

18.07 As a rule, a player may not play in a UEFA club competition (i.e. UEFA
Champions League and UEFA Europa League, but not UEFA Super Cup) for
more than one club in the course of the same season. Exceptionally,
however, a player who has been fielded in the first, second or third qualifying
round of the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League is entitled to
play in the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League for another
club as from the group stage, provided that his former club did not qualify for
the group phase of either the UEFA Champions League or the UEFA Europa
League; moreover, as from the start of the round of 16 (round of 32 for UEFA
Europa League), a player can be registered in accordance with paragraphs
18.17 to 18.20 below. For the avoidance of doubt, a substitute player who
has not been fielded is entitled to play for another club competing in the
UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League in the course of the
same season, provided that he is registered with the UEFA administration in
accordance with the present regulations.

[TapeAndPosts]

From the Player Eligibility section of the UEFA website:

Awesome, thanks. And obviously that exception concerning your team being bounced out early doesn't apply here, since PSV made it to the group stage. Now here's paragraphs 18.17 and 18.18 which are alluded to:

18.17 For all matches from the start of the round of 16, a club may register a maximum of three new eligible players for the remaining matches in the current competition. Such registration must be completed by 1 February 2011 (24.0 CET) at the latest. This deadline cannot be extended.

18.18 One player from the above quota of three who has played UEFA club competition matches for another competing club in the current season may exceptionally be registered, provided that the player has not been fielded:
− in the same competition for another club; or
− for another club that is currently in the same competition.

Bold mine. So if I'm reading this right, this confirms what the commenter at totalbarca was claiming: if Barça makes it to the round of 16, they may then add Afellay to the CL squad, since he played in a different competition, Europa League not Champions. However you can only do that with one player, so if they acquired Pastore in January as well (just for the sake of argument), they could only add one of them to the CL roster since Palermo is also playing in the Europa League.

[sachmoney]

Hopefully, this ends the Fabregas pursuit for a couple years. That's the only reason I hope that this deal works out for you guys because I really like Afellay. You know, so much as your interests don't conflict with mine.

It's a good move for Barca, who are clearly fielding a depleted squad. Fielding a squad of 19 (I believe it was 17 at the start of the season) seemed like a horrible idea and they clearly needed depth. Xavi and Iniesta, despite playing in a soft league, seem to always get hurt at one point or another. Keita, Busquets, and Mascherano aren't creative enough to step into that role, and you can only rely on Messi and the other of the two attacking midfielders for so much. Cesc would have been perfect for that role, but when you are close to €400 million in debt, despite having the second largest revenues in football, you probably cannot afford a player of that quality. Afellay is a good player who fills a need, nearing the end of his contract. He's a good get for Barca.

[Zososoxfan]

Hopefully, this ends the Fabregas pursuit for a couple years. That's the only reason I hope that this deal works out for you guys because I really like Afellay. You know, so much as your interests don't conflict with mine.

It's a good move for Barca, who are clearly fielding a depleted squad. Fielding a squad of 19 (I believe it was 17 at the start of the season) seemed like a horrible idea and they clearly needed depth. Xavi and Iniesta, despite playing in a soft league, seem to always get hurt at one point or another. Keita, Busquets, and Mascherano aren't creative enough to step into that role, and you can only rely on Messi and the other of the two attacking midfielders for so much. Cesc would have been perfect for that role, but when you are close to €400 million in debt, despite having the second largest revenues in football, you probably cannot afford a player of that quality. Afellay is a good player who fills a need, nearing the end of his contract. He's a good get for Barca.

I'd still love to see Pastore make his way over to the Nou Camp, but I have my Albiceleste bias. He would come cheaper than Cesc, though. Overall, Affelay seems like a better fit for this season - a lower cost player than Pastore, to be the 3rd center mid behind Xavi and Iniesta. With Iniesta's increasing comfort playing more in the Xavi-generalito role, I wonder if Affelay can fill in the Iniesta-terrorize the wing/doppleganger role. i.e. can they have enough confidence to sit Xavi and play Iniesta in the middle now that there's a real 3rd creative mid on the squad.

[filthywater49]

I'd still love to see Pastore make his way over to the Nou Camp, but I have my Albiceleste bias. He would come cheaper than Cesc, though. Overall, Affelay seems like a better fit for this season - a lower cost player than Pastore, to be the 3rd center mid behind Xavi and Iniesta. With Iniesta's increasing comfort playing more in the Xavi-generalito role, I wonder if Affelay can fill in the Iniesta-terrorize the wing/doppleganger role. i.e. can they have enough confidence to sit Xavi and play Iniesta in the middle now that there's a real 3rd creative mid on the squad.

Add me to the pile of people who would love to see Pastore in Camp Nou, though I've heard he's not super keen on it. Zosox, do you have any insight on that?

[sachmoney]

Add me to the pile of people who would love to see Pastore in Camp Nou, though I've heard he's not super keen on it. Zosox, do you have any insight on that?

Uh, no?

"It would be a dream to play with Messi inBarcelona, a club much bigger than Palermo,"Pastore told El Mundo Deportivo.

"It's what I want. I always dreamed of playing in Europe and now I'm here I want to keep growing and I know that to do this I have to play in clubs like Barcelona.

"Manchester City, Inter, Chelsea, Milanand Real Madrid are all big clubs but Barca's style of play is the one I like most. Barca are the greatest, for sure.

"I think if I continue to improve and grow I can keep up with Xavi and Iniesta, for me two of the best players in the world after Messi.

"When I sleep I dream about playing with them. I hope I can reach their level."

Sounds like he wants to go to Barca, but he has also said that money is not a factor in his move. Palermo has put a huge price tag on him, so Barca might not have the funds to get him.

[TapeAndPosts]

Sounds like he wants to go to Barca, but he has also said that money is not a factor in his move. Palermo has put a huge price tag on him, so Barca might not have the funds to get him.

Pastore is not the only player who has had dreams of playing for Barça. Can you name the player whose summer 2010 quotes appear below?

'I have been a fan of Barcelona since childhood,' he said recently. 'I can not describe exactly what it is but there is something that I love about the team.'

'They've always had the best players. A few years ago they had Luis Figo and Rivaldo - now they have Lionel Messi.'

'Playing for Barcelona has always been my dream and someday I hope to achieve it.'

But yes, Pastore seems quite open to the idea, while Palermo is asking for stupid money — I've heard up to €70 million. He's a nice player, but is there a situation where Barça can afford him and wouldn't rather spend the money on Cesc?

[sachmoney]

But yes, Pastore seems quite open to the idea, while Palermo is asking for stupid money — I've heard up to €70 million. He's a nice player, but is there a situation where Barça can afford him and wouldn't rather spend the money on Cesc?

I don't see the relevance of including that quote in your post. We all know Cesc wants to go to Barcelona one day, and that's not exactly a secret and no one is denying that fact.

When Palermo extended Pastore's contract, they put in a €40 million buy out clause. Not sure how that will play out on the transfer market, but I don't know if they can ask for much more than that. I will tell you right now, €40 million is not going to get you Cesc, and I don't expect Pastore's salary to be as high as Cesc's salary. I've heard that a deal for Cesc -with fees, salaries and commissions taken into account-would amount to €85 million. At this point, Pastore is the better get for the money that Barcelona has. Of course, they would much prefer to bring their a catalan home though.

[Zososoxfan]

Add me to the pile of people who would love to see Pastore in Camp Nou, though I've heard he's not super keen on it. Zosox, do you have any insight on that?

Only the Bleacher Report drivel I usually see. I never go to theoffside.com anymore, since the writer joined up with ESPN, but they used to be a good resource at least.

[TapeAndPosts]

I don't see the relevance of including that quote in your post. We all know Cesc wants to go to Barcelona one day, and that's not exactly a secret and no one is denying that fact.

The quote's not Cesc! Granted, maybe he said similar things. But those quotes were from:

Spoiler

Mesut Özil

All I was thinking about was, just because someone says they dream of Barça, doesn't mean it's the only place they'll play, or that they won't jump somewhere else at an opportunity. Some days it seems everybody dreams of Barça, but the dreams of many seem correlated with the width of the checkbook.

As for Cesc vs. Pastore, yes I agree, if Arsene insists on €50 million and Palermo can be talked down to €30 million, then Pastore will make a lot more sense. I had been thinking about the €70 million figure I saw somewhere, which is probably just a vacuous talking point to start negotiations high.

Edited by TapeAndPosts, 17 November 2010 - 05:25 PM.

[filthywater49]

Uh, no?
Sounds like he wants to go to Barca, but he has also said that money is not a factor in his move. Palermo has put a huge price tag on him, so Barca might not have the funds to get him.

I read a story on Goal.com about how Pastore said he wanted to stay and that if anything, Messi should come to Palermo. Guess they took it out of context. My bad. That's what I get for reading Goal.com

[TapeAndPosts]

I read a story on Goal.com about how Pastore said he wanted to stay and that if anything, Messi should come to Palermo. Guess they took it out of context. My bad. That's what I get for reading Goal.com

I remember that article. The headline made it sound like something that meant something, and then it turned out to be an off-the-cuff remark no doubt made in jest. That's goal.com!

[sachmoney]

I love that one source is from a pro-Barcelona news paper (I read El Mundo Deportivo every morning in Barca, it really pissed me off every single fucking time), and one from an Italian source. I wonder if either has an agenda in all of this...

I really don't know Pastore's game enough to have a clue. All I know is that a lot of clubs want him.

Edited by sachmoney, 17 November 2010 - 11:55 PM.