34 replies to this topic

[SoxScout]

Jon Lester and Hanley Ramirez were once teammates in the Red Sox minor league system but were on opposite sides of the All-Star Game on Tuesday night. Lester retired Ramirez on a bouncer back to the mound and after the game he was asked if he and Ramirez had ever gone out for pizza and fantasized about being in the Midsummer Classic while they were on their way up the baseball ladder.

It's a silly question, but Lester didn't have a particularly jokey response.

"I'd have a better chance of being struck by lightning than me and him getting a pizza together," Lester said. "You can take that for what it's worth. But there was no chance on God's green earth that I was getting a pizza with him."

http://mlb.fanhouse....hanley-ramirez/

[EdRalphRomero]

Jon Lester and Hanley Ramirez were once teammates in the Red Sox minor league system but were on opposite sides of the All-Star Game on Tuesday night. Lester retired Ramirez on a bouncer back to the mound and after the game he was asked if he and Ramirez had ever gone out for pizza and fantasized about being in the Midsummer Classic while they were on their way up the baseball ladder.

It's a silly question, but Lester didn't have a particularly jokey response.

"I'd have a better chance of being struck by lightning than me and him getting a pizza together," Lester said. "You can take that for what it's worth. But there was no chance on God's green earth that I was getting a pizza with him."

Wow. That is a particularly damning comment. Not that I won't continue to wish there had been some other way to get Beckett and Lowell than Hanley+, but it seems that Hanley really does have some issues.

[E5 Yaz]

Wow. That is a particularly damning comment. Not that I won't continue to wish there had been some other way to get Beckett and Lowell than Hanley+, but it seems that Hanley really does have some issues.

Or, you know, maybe Lester does

[EdRalphRomero]

Or, you know, maybe Lester does

But Jon Lester doesn't have a long train of teammates and managers questioning his maturity and level of commitment. He didn't half-ass it to a ball he misplayed and them publicly question his manager's ability to manage because he never played in the majors. I could cite a long list of guys who have questioned Hanley, so yeah maybe in a vacuum this could be about either of them. But in context, I think a more reasonable persepctive is that Hanley Ramirez is an immense talent who has consistently alienated teammates with his antics.

[PedroSpecialK]

Perhaps one or both of them is lactose-intolerant?

[smastroyin]

I think it would be like the Youks-Manny thing.

Just to add, I mean "super intense to the point that he probably comes off like a douchebag" vs. "happy go lucky with so much talent he probably looks like he is not trying, especially to a super intense guy"

[Rasputin]

But Jon Lester doesn't have a long train of teammates and managers questioning his maturity and level of commitment. He didn't half-ass it to a ball he misplayed and them publicly question his manager's ability to manage because he never played in the majors. I could cite a long list of guys who have questioned Hanley, so yeah maybe in a vacuum this could be about either of them. But in context, I think a more reasonable persepctive is that Hanley Ramirez is an immense talent who has consistently alienated teammates with his antics.

The context had nothing to do with anyone dogging it and everything to do with someone asking if they had ever talked about being in the all-star game over pizza.

For all you know Lester just hates swarthy folks.

[smastroyin]

The context had nothing to do with anyone dogging it and everything to do with someone asking if they had ever talked about being in the all-star game over pizza.

For all you know Lester just hates swarthy folks.

Can we just stop with throwing around even indirect racist accusations?

It really cheapens actual racism when we point to every personality conflict as a matter of race.

[Rasputin]

Can we just stop with throwing around even indirect racist accusations?

It really cheapens actual racism when we point to every personality conflict as a matter of race.

Sure, right after we stop throwing around accusations of throwing around indirect racist accusations.

There's no indirect accusation of racism there; it's a rather more direct accusation of jumping to conclusions.

[EdRalphRomero]

There's no indirect accusation of racism there; it's a rather more direct accusation of jumping to conclusions.

Ramirez has gotten called out at every level by players and managers. Now a former teammate says he wouldn't have a pizza with the guy. You think it is jumping to conclusions to assume it is for the same reasons that Ramirez has been getting called out for all these years (and most recently basically got his manager fired for)? There are very few acceptable reasons to imply that you do not like a guy to a reporter and #1 on just about any list is that he is a lousy teammate. I guess it is a subjective call, but I would give you 100 to 1 odds that I am right (of course without any objective way to verify this short of Lester sitting down with us and explaining his true intent this is, admitedly, internet posturing).

To put it another way, we extrapolate performance all the time on this board with incomplete information. We look at defense using limited metrics. We predict future performance based on small sample sizes. I'd say my perspective on Hanley has more predictive factors than most comments here.

[joe dokes]

Ramirez has gotten called out at every level by players and managers. Now a former teammate says he wouldn't have a pizza with the guy. You think it is jumping to conclusions to assume it is for the same reasons that Ramirez has been getting called out for all these years (and most recently basically got his manager fired for)? There are very few acceptable reasons to imply that you do not like a guy to a reporter and #1 on just about any list is that he is a lousy teammate. I guess it is a subjective call, but I would give you 100 to 1 odds that I am right (of course without any objective way to verify this short of Lester sitting down with us and explaining his true intent this is, admitedly, internet posturing).

To put it another way, we extrapolate performance all the time on this board with incomplete information. We look at defense using limited metrics. We predict future performance based on small sample sizes. I'd say my perspective on Hanley has more predictive factors than most comments here.

One thing to consider is that Lester's full year in Portland was 2005, when Hanley's mediocrity really hurt his stock. if he was mediocre off the field as well . . . .

[Rasputin]

Ramirez has gotten called out at every level by players and managers. Now a former teammate says he wouldn't have a pizza with the guy. You think it is jumping to conclusions to assume it is for the same reasons that Ramirez has been getting called out for all these years (and most recently basically got his manager fired for)?

Of course it is. It's the very definition of jumping to conclusions. The conclusion may well be correct but the process of getting there is flawed regardless.

To put it another way, we extrapolate performance all the time on this board with incomplete information. We look at defense using limited metrics. We predict future performance based on small sample sizes. I'd say my perspective on Hanley has more predictive factors than most comments here.

That's a horrendous analogy. You're claiming because we often make general statements based on incomplete information we're justified in making specific statements based on an almost complete lack of information.

This isn't saying that Adrian Beltre is a damn good fielding third baseman based on several years worth of imperfect statistics; it's saying that Jose Iglesias is going to win the 2015 Gold Glove for the Diamondbacks because lots of people say he plays good defense.

There are very few acceptable reasons to imply that you do not like a guy to a reporter and #1 on just about any list is that he is a lousy teammate. I guess it is a subjective call, but I would give you 100 to 1 odds that I am right (of course without any objective way to verify this short of Lester sitting down with us and explaining his true intent this is, admitedly, internet posturing).

If you can find a way to get a real answer, I'll find a way to put up a hundred bucks, not because I think you're wrong but because those are odds I can't pass up.

Edited by Rasputin, 14 July 2010 - 05:02 PM.

[SoxFanSince57]

Sure, right after we stop throwing around accusations of throwing around indirect racist accusations.

There's no indirect accusation of racism there; it's a rather more direct accusation of jumping to conclusions.

I think smastroyin was referring to the use of the word swarthy. "For all you know Lester just hates swarthy folks."

I imagine he felt that statement represented an "indirect accusation of racism."

It is puzzling why Lester went out of his way to say something negative about HR. Seems like an inopportune time for an old grudge to spill out into the public.

Edited by SoxFanSince57, 14 July 2010 - 05:00 PM.

[E5 Yaz]

Lester could have avoided any furthering of this story by saying something out of the Crash Davis School of Answering Questions, but he didn't. He said something very pointed, then told the press to make of that what they will.

But just because Ramirez has had maturity issues doesn't mean that, in this case, that's what this is about. And consider this: Ortiz certainly is friendly with Hanley, and vice versa -- and said he had told Hanley to get his act together after the incident earlier this year.

Perhaps the two guys just didn't get along; perhaps they hate pizza. But to throw the onus onto to one of them based on examples with no direct relation to Lester does jump to conclusions.

[Rasputin]

I think smastroyin was referring to the use of the word swarthy. "For all you know Lester just hates swarthy folks."

I imagine he felt that statement represented an "indirect accusation of racism."

Of course that's what he was referring to. I disagreed.

It is puzzling why Lester went out of his way to say something negative about HR. Seems like an inopportune time for an old grudge to spill out into the public.

It is odd. I'm trying hard to imagine WTF he was thinking. If he really thinks Ramirez is a douche why wouldn't he just sidestep it? I think there would have to be some serious dislike to make that statement for real. Or it could be they're best buds and he's just fucking with him.

Regardless, I suspect the media types aren't going to let it go.

[FelixMantilla]

Hanley was also traded for Lester's buddy and role model, Josh Beckett.

[xjack]

Hard to know what to make of Lester's comments. Maybe he really did dislike Hanley.

Then again, if you read Odd Man Out -- the minor league memoir authored last year by ex-Angels farmhand Matt McCarthy -- it's pretty clear that Domincans and the American-born players live in very different worlds in the minor leagues. Just because Lester and Ramirez were teammates doesn't mean they interacted a whole lot.

[luckysox]

This thread has awesomeness written all over it. (that is to say it didn't take long to get to "swarthy" and racism)

I simply can't believe a reporter asked that moronic of a question.

2nd half, please.

Edited by luckysox, 14 July 2010 - 05:41 PM.

[smastroyin]

Ras, a guy taking liberties interpreting circumstantial evidence should not be equated to an accusation of racism. That is my point.

[reggiecleveland]

I simply can't believe a reporter asked that moronic of a question.

That is far and away the most believable part of this story.

[E5 Yaz]

Buckley with a different take:

Left unsaid was what Lester’s issues were, and apparently are, with Ramirez. And Ramirez was not available for comment in the packed, jubilant National League clubhouse. While it is well known that Ramirez had what the club called maturity issues back when he was a Red Sox minor leaguer, that’s not really the point here. Ramirez has gone on to have a brilliant big league career with the Marlins, and good for him.

But what it says about Lester is remarkable. In an age when players share agents, in an age when players routinely change teams, in an age when the powerful Players Association pulls its charges together under a one-for-all, all-for-one umbrella, Jon Lester appears unwilling to throw imaginary bouquets at opposing players simply because he has been asked to do so.

http://news.bostonhe...a...&position=4

[Rasputin]

Ras, a guy taking liberties interpreting circumstantial evidence should not be equated to an accusation of racism. That is my point.

And my point is that it wasn't.

I mean, lets be clear here.

I didn't say Lester was racist.

I didn't say anyone else said Lester was racist.

In the context of saying someone didn't have the data to reach the conclusion they reached I equated the conclusion they came to to concluding that Lester was racist.

The All Star Break is like a mini off season but without all the transactions. It blows.

[Doug Beerabelli]

I look forward to the day when we as Americans are assumed to have made mean, irrational, nasty, if sometimes accurate judgments about others not based upon the color of their skin, but on the content of their character.

[Yaz4Ever]

Everyone's a little racist, sometimes.

Let's move along and focus on more important things, please.

Edited by Yaz4Ever, 14 July 2010 - 06:11 PM.

[BucketOBalls]

Perhaps one or both of them is lactose-intolerant?

Or maybe one of them likes anchovies.

Honestly, there are a bunch of reasons lester could say that, and only about 60% of them involved them disliking each other.

[E5 Yaz]

Let's move along and focus on more important things, please.

here's a good one:

#rwesty25: First day hitting off a tee today! !!!

http://twitter.com/RWesty25

[AlNipper49]

Want to grab a pizza then bang my brains out?

No?

Don't like pizza huh

[bd11]

One would hope this would not be an impediment to the Sox acquiring Hanley if he ever became available. What a talent.

[Caspir]

One would hope this would not be an impediment to the Sox acquiring Hanley if he ever became available. What a talent.

I don't know. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Red Sox run all personnel decisions by Lester before they make a move. Not good since he also said he would never have a Waldorf salad with Albert Pujols.

[kazuneko]

I simply can't believe a reporter asked that moronic of a question.

Or failed to ask a follow up when he actually got an interesting answer... You gotta think a lot of the speculation here wouldn't have to be pondered if whoever the moron was who asked the question went on to find out what the heck Lester meant by his response...

[Flynn4ever]

Here is a guarantee for all: I don't know Lester and I don't know HR. I think they are both brilliant stars and will see each other at the All-Star Game repeatedly and I hope that if the Marlins get their act together in a World Series or two. I would even love to have HR back here when and if he grows up. The guarantee is, after Lester went through chemo, he took stock of what was important and what was not. I am sure he decided that Hanley's behavior when they were teammates made Hanley unimportant to him. There may be more beyond that, but that is all you need to know.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Or failed to ask a follow up when he actually got an interesting answer... You gotta think a lot of the speculation here wouldn't have to be pondered if whoever the moron was who asked the question went on to find out what the heck Lester meant by his response...

That's the sports media for you. The bitch endlessly that today's athletes often don't provide much in the way of interesting quotes or personality, and then when Lester actually showed some dislike for a former minor league teammate with an honest answer to a pretty silly question, everyone gets their panties in a bunch.

I can only assume that Hanley isn't Lester's favorite person in the world from their time together in Portland. It's really no big deal; there's a lot of guys who hate each other's guts while being teammates.

[URI]

Here is a guarantee for all: I don't know Lester and I don't know HR. I think they are both brilliant stars and will see each other at the All-Star Game repeatedly and I hope that if the Marlins get their act together in a World Series or two. I would even love to have HR back here when and if he grows up. The guarantee is, after Lester went through chemo, he took stock of what was important and what was not. I am sure he decided that Hanley's behavior when they were teammates made Hanley unimportant to him. There may be more beyond that, but that is all you need to know.

Or maybe Hanley is a dick. Or maybe Lester is.

You guarantee that Lester consciously took stock of his life at 22 and decided to cut out Hanley Ramirez because of things that happened years earlier? It couldn't have been a decision made pre-cancer, based on a personality clash? By the time Lester was diagnosed, Hanley was out of the organization.

There is a better chance that after chemo, he tried to bang that cute candystriper that kept stopping by. Lester's cancer is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Don't make stupid touchy/feely posts again.

[bd11]

I don't know. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Red Sox run all personnel decisions by Lester before they make a move. Not good since he also said he would never have a Waldorf salad with Albert Pujols.

You're right. Front offices have never considered the views of their own players before making deals. Not even a possibility.

[Ryo Sen]

If anyone still cares, Toucher & Rich asked Lester about this on his weekly interview. Lester said his comments weren't a big deal, and he was surprised the reporter printed the remark since he made it offhand while walking away. Lester said he was referring to the fact that Hanley was the big-shot prospect (my words, not his) while they were teammates, and they basically ran in different circles, but they don't hate each other or anything.