1176 replies to this topic

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Chris Broussard with some good reporting on the unraveling locker room:

http://espn.go.com/n...cording-sources

That article is pretty damning, though just as much so of Anthony as of D'Antoni. What a mess of a franchise. I just put the rest of my tickets for the year on stubhub. And the best part is, somebody who bought into Linsanity and never went to a Knicks game before February is still going to be stupid enough to pay top dollar for them.

And if it's true that Phil Jackson is really their target, and there's a chance of that happening, isn't it going to be a waste to pay Lin the full mid-level to stick around? He's certainly not a good fit for the triangle, though I have a feeling that given how much money he makes Dolan, he's the starting point guard here for better or worse. There are definitely guys I'd prefer over Jackson.

[TheGazelle]

That article is pretty damning, though just as much so of Anthony as of D'Antoni. What a mess of a franchise. I just put the rest of my tickets for the year on stubhub. And the best part is, somebody who bought into Linsanity and never went to a Knicks game before February is still going to be stupid enough to pay top dollar for them.

And if it's true that Phil Jackson is really their target, and there's a chance of that happening, isn't it going to be a waste to pay Lin the full mid-level to stick around? He's certainly not a good fit for the triangle, though I have a feeling that given how much money he makes Dolan, he's the starting point guard here for better or worse. There are definitely guys I'd prefer over Jackson.

I agree with the bolded. It's pathetic that D'Antoni refuses to alter his system at all, but it's also embarassing that Melo ignores what the coach is trying to do. I agree with the posters who say that D'Antoni would be a good college coach, because it seems clear he wants to run a specific system, regardless of the talents of his players. College would let him do that. But having Melo just stand around and spread the floor is a joke. Of course, it's even worse that Melo acts like a petulant child and does whatever he wants.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I agree with the bolded. It's pathetic that D'Antoni refuses to alter his system at all, but it's also embarassing that Melo ignores what the coach is trying to do. I agree with the posters who say that D'Antoni would be a good college coach, because it seems clear he wants to run a specific system, regardless of the talents of his players. College would let him do that. But having Melo just stand around and spread the floor is a joke. Of course, it's even worse that Melo acts like a petulant child and does whatever he wants.

See, this is the part that I think goes back to the personnel, and why I thinK D'Antoni is being unfairly maligned. Carmelo could be a great fit for that system, the problem is that the role he's best suited to is currently occupied by Amare, and ironically, Amare isn't particularly good at it. The Knicks front office did a terrible job of providing D'Antoni with players that fit what he does, and now they find themselves in a situation where they have no cap space, a lot of large contracts (one of which is unmoveable) and no discernible plan as to how to move forward and make it work. Carmelo wants the ball in the spots where Amare gets it. That's where he's most effective, and those are the parts of the floor the article mentions him drifting to. He's a much more effective post player than Amare, and is better at the elbow too. They simply get in each other's way. On top of that, adding Chandler to the mix reduced Amare's effectiveness in the system because he worked better at the 5 as the roll guy. And the worst part of all of this is that Knicks fans--a lot of them anyhow--are naive enough to believe that the pieces in place can win, and that all it's gonna take is better coaching and a different system. In the span of 5 games Carmelo Anthony gave up on trying to make this work. That really inspires a ton of confidence.

However, there is an 11th hour rumor right now about Melo + Tyson for Howard and Hedo. Nothing would make me happier right now than the right to root against Carmelo Anthony.

[Brickowski]

If I were D'Antoni I'd put Melo at the end of the bench and go back to the formula that was winning games before Melo returned to the lineup. I'd dare Dolan to fire me. Unless Melo is traded D'Antoni ia gone in two months anyway.

Interesting trade rumor...but I wonder how long it would be before Melo butted heads with Stan Van Gundy.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

If I were D'Antoni I'd put Melo at the end of the bench and go back to the formula that was winning games before Melo returned to the lineup. I'd dare Dolan to fire me. Unless Melo is traded D'Antoni ia gone in two months anyway.

Interesting trade rumor...but I wonder how long it would be before Melo butted heads with Stan Van Gundy.

The more I think about it, the less I think the Dolan-Carmelo thing matters. At the time he pushed for that trade because he saw Carmelo as a fantastic marketing opportunity. Now Jeremy Lin's his meal ticket, and Melo is getting booed in pre-game introductions.

There's also another very interesting Knicks related rumor out there today, which is that Jerry Sloan would be interested in coaching the team. I have no idea why he'd be interested, but "sources" close to him said as much to Sam Amick.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

And here's another take on the Carmelo-D'Antoni thing from Howard Beck:

http://www.nytimes.c...the-knicks.html

It includes this interesting tidbit, which D'Antoni has been blamed for here:

Nor is Anthony fulfilling his presumed role as a clutch performer. He misfired repeatedly down the stretch in Chicago, adding to a string of fourth-quarter failures this season. He intentionally fouled Kyle Korver and sent him to the line on a key possession in the final minute, with the Knicks down by 4, after the players had been instructed to simply play defense.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 14 March 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[ishmael]

There's also another very interesting Knicks related rumor out there today, which is that Jerry Sloan would be interested in coaching the team. I have no idea why he'd be interested, but "sources" close to him said as much to Sam Amick.

Sloan with this team would be amazing. How long until a 70 year old Sloan challenges Carmelo to a bare knuckle fight?

[TomRicardo]

And if it's true that Phil Jackson is really their target, and there's a chance of that happening, isn't it going to be a waste to pay Lin the full mid-level to stick around? He's certainly not a good fit for the triangle, though I have a feeling that given how much money he makes Dolan, he's the starting point guard here for better or worse. There are definitely guys I'd prefer over Jackson.

I think Lin is for more likely to survive than Melo. No way Jackson wants anything to do with Melo.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

I'm more than happy to engage Orlando, but given what we know (he has his sights set on Brooklyn), there's no way I'm offering Melo. Either they can take Stoudemires contract or they can take a hike. Even if he left for the Nets, getting rid of Amare's deal would be sufficient reason to make that trade.

I'm sorry, I still blame D'Antoni for this over Melo (not that he's without blame). In what other basketball situation do we expect a ten year star to defer to a mid-tier rookie PG? In what basketball situation is the onus not on the coach to make sure his best player can succeed, and in turn help the team succeed? These are basic high school principles.

We can hem and haw and complain that Melo doesn't play like Lebron or Kurt Thomas or Charles Oakley or Willis Reed. But he is what he is. And he's not going to change, so its the coach's job to get the most out of him in that context. And frankly, he's been a better sport up until this point than I would have expected.

[TomRicardo]

For the past 10 games, the Knicks have been demonstrably worse when Anthony plays. With Anthony on the court, the Knicks are scoring at a rate of 97.7 points per 100 possessions. When he is on the bench, that rating soars to 109.8. The contrast is just as sharp on defense: the Knicks give up 107.1 points per 100 possessions with Anthony on the court, 95.1 with Anthony on the bench. His personal differential, a minus-9.4 rating, is the worst on the team in that 10-game stretch.

Definitely sounds like D'Antoni's fault. Look people knew this was going to happen. Melo doesn't want to play team offense or defense. Without Melo getting injured this team probably won't make the playoffs.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I'm more than happy to engage Orlando, but given what we know (he has his sights set on Brooklyn), there's no way I'm offering Melo. Either they can take Stoudemires contract or they can take a hike. Even if he left for the Nets, getting rid of Amare's deal would be sufficient reason to make that trade.

I'm sorry, I still blame D'Antoni for this over Melo (not that he's without blame). In what other basketball situation do we expect a ten year star to defer to a mid-tier rookie PG? In what basketball situation is the onus not on the coach to make sure his best player can succeed, and in turn help the team succeed? These are basic high school principles.

We can hem and haw and complain that Melo doesn't play like Lebron or Kurt Thomas or Charles Oakley or Willis Reed. But he is what he is. And he's not going to change, so its the coach's job to get the most out of him in that context. And frankly, he's been a better sport up until this point than I would have expected.

This isn't about him deferring to Lin. It's about him buying into the team concept, and with the exception of Broussard, literally everybody else is reporting that the entire Knicks roster is frustrated with Carmelo for refusing to buy in. Carmelo Anthony is blatantly breaking out of the offense, refusing to stay in his spots, and demanding that other players adhere to his style. And when he plays, the Knicks are worse in every facet of the game. What has Carmelo done to earn the right to be a petulant child and put himself above the team?

[TomRicardo]

What has Carmelo done to earn the right to be a petulant child and put himself above the team?

He has experience holding a team hostage while demanding to be let out of town.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

From the Post:
-----
According to the source, Grunwald has had just one conversation with Anthony since he became GM. And D’Antoni rarely talks to Anthony after games, especially since Anthony’s return from a groin injury.
-----
D’Antoni rarely speaks in the same reverential tones about Anthony as he does about Lin, Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler.
When D’Antoni was asked after Monday’s loss to the Bulls if Anthony looked frustrated, D’Antoni replied, “More than normal, you mean? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask him.’’

Sure seems like D'Antoni's working hard at that relationship. I guess we can pretend that the NBA isn't a star league, and that the coach should be able to just say what he wants and all his guys follow it blindly. But frankly, that's not reality--and its the coaches job, more than anything else, to get the stars to play well. And he's not doing his job.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Sure seems like D'Antoni's working hard at that relationship. I guess we can pretend that the NBA isn't a star league, and that the coach should be able to just say what he wants and all his guys follow it blindly. But frankly, that's not reality--and its the coaches job, more than anything else, to get the stars to play well. And he's not doing his job.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that everybody else on the team was on board with D'Antoni.

But I get it, you hate D'Antoni and that's not gonna change. Fair enough.

[maufman]

Why would they have taken Amare a month ago and not now? A month ago, they might have had hope they ll find a better trade, today Amare might be the best trade offer they get. Although tbh, I don't think Amare is going anywhere, because it's just not an acceptable trade for anyone.

A month ago, Amare was a guy who was recently a top 10-15 player who was slumping -- and of course had bad knees, and a bad contract. Melo was a top 20 player without any of Amare's baggage. Faced with the prospect of Howard leaving for nothing, and with the Magic seemingly headed for a one-and-done in this season's playoffs, I think they would have done the Melo deal, and would even have been tempted by the Amare deal.

Now, of course, you're right -- there's no deal to be made. Amare's contract looks like an albatross, Melo has convinced most people that he can't fit on a contender, and Howard has decided he wants to play out the string in Orlando and sign with Brooklyn this summer. The Magic would rather have the salary relief, and the Knicks aren't going to give up a marquee player (even an overrated one) for a rental.

[Nick Kaufman]

As the Knicks roster is currently constructed, Chandler has to start at Center and Amare at PF right? if Amare starts at PF, then Carmello needs to start at SF right?

An NBA team, not just D'Antoni's team, but any NBA team, needs a 3 point deep threat right? If your starting backcourt is Lin and Fields or even Schumpert, then who else other than Anthony is supposed to sit on the 3 point line keeping defenses honest and creating the space for the rest of the offense?

If by some magical way, the Knicks got rid of Amare, then they can play the roster much more to its strengths. They can move Carmelo at PF and use Novak or a new wing signing as the deep threat.

[Nick Kaufman]

I think at this point getting rid of Amare for free is addition by subtraction.

[lars10]

As the Knicks roster is currently constructed, Chandler has to start at Center and Amare at PF right? if Amare starts at PF, then Carmello needs to start at SF right?

An NBA team, not just D'Antoni's team, but any NBA team, needs a 3 point deep threat right? If your starting backcourt is Lin and Fields or even Schumpert, then who else other than Anthony is supposed to sit on the 3 point line keeping defenses honest and creating the space for the rest of the offense.

If by some magical way, the Knicks got rid of Amare, then they can play the roster much more to its strengths. They can move Carmelo at PF and use Novak or a new wing signing as the deep threat.

Or maybe they could experiment with not playing Melo and Amare at the same time so much...hard to do with the number of minutes they play, but if Melo is purposely not playing in the system that's in place then maybe he shouldn't be playing so much.. it would seem to start to explain the lack of movement and confusion on the offensive end.

[Nick Kaufman]

Or maybe they could experiment with not playing Melo and Amare at the same time so much...hard to do with the number of minutes they play, but if Melo is purposely not playing in the system that's in place then maybe he shouldn't be playing so much.. it would seem to start to explain the lack of movement and confusion on the offensive end.

I agree, but show me a coach that would bench a purported superstar and I ll show you a coach with a big locker room problem on his way out the door.

[maufman]

I agree, but show me a coach that would bench a purported superstar and I ll show you a coach with a big locker room problem on his way out the door.

D'Antoni has little to lose -- he's out the door anyway if the Knicks don't make the playoffs. Cutting Amare and Melo to 30 minutes apiece per night, and minimizing the minutes they're on the floor together, seems like a sensible strategy.

Of course, this is precisely the sort of in-season change that's difficult to make without regular practices.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

As the Knicks roster is currently constructed, Chandler has to start at Center and Amare at PF right? if Amare starts at PF, then Carmello needs to start at SF right?

An NBA team, not just D'Antoni's team, but any NBA team, needs a 3 point deep threat right? If your starting backcourt is Lin and Fields or even Schumpert, then who else other than Anthony is supposed to sit on the 3 point line keeping defenses honest and creating the space for the rest of the offense?

If by some magical way, the Knicks got rid of Amare, then they can play the roster much more to its strengths. They can move Carmelo at PF and use Novak or a new wing signing as the deep threat.

The perfect compliment would be a guy who shoots the 3 well, rebounds his position decently, plays defense, can handle the ball, and most importantly, gets to the line so that he can get points without take 20 shots a game. You know, somebody like Danillo Gallinari.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

The perfect compliment would be a guy who shoots the 3 well, rebounds his position decently, plays defense, can handle the ball, and most importantly, gets to the line so that he can get points without take 20 shots a game. You know, somebody like Danillo Gallinari.

I was with you until that didn't end with "You know, somebody like Wilson Chandler." Lets not revise history so thoroughly as to pretend Gallo played defense!

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I was with you until that didn't end with "You know, somebody like Wilson Chandler." Lets not revise history so thoroughly as to pretend Gallo played defense!

That's in no way a revision of history.

Edit: Oh wait, my bad. I thought I'd originally written "makes an effort on defense." Gallinari isn't a great defender. But he tried.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 14 March 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

That's in no way a revision of history.

Edit: Oh wait, my bad. I thought I'd originally written "makes an effort on defense." Gallinari isn't a great defender. But he tried.

His "trying" and Melo's "not trying" led to 2.5 DWS for Melo last year and 1.2 for Gallo.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

His "trying" and Melo's "not trying" led to 2.5 DWS for Melo last year and 1.2 for Gallo.

I didn't mention Melo at all in that post. In fact, in this very thread I'm one of the few people who has defended Melo's defensive abilities. But, okay.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

I didn't mention Melo at all in that post. In fact, in this very thread I'm one of the few people who has defended Melo's defensive abilities. But, okay.

Sorry--read your post of "making an effort" as inferring that Melo doesn't. Carry on.

I have no idea how I've become Melo's staunchest advocate here, but shit I just love watching the guy when he's on.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Sorry--read your post of "making an effort" as inferring that Melo doesn't. Carry on.

I have no idea how I've become Melo's staunchest advocate here, but shit I just love watching the guy when he's on.

No worries. I don't know a single Knicks fan who hasn't been a bit testy over the last week or so. This team makes me want to light things on fire.

[TripleOT]

I wonder if Amare could regain at least some of his form playing center like he did when he had success with the Knicks. SInge they've acquired Chandler, Amare's been off, now having to maneuver his gimpy legs around PF s instead of too slow centers. And if he does get going, there's another big on defense to contend with.

It's really sad that this guy went from someone with comic book hops to this. They should take him out six minutes into tthe game, then have him sub in for Chandler and play half his minutes at backup center, using Novak with him to spread the floor.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

WHOA.

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏ @WojYahooNBA
Mike D'Antoni has resigned as New York Knicks coach, a source tells Y! Sports.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Sam Amick ‏ @sam_amick
Source confirms New York coach Mike D'Antoni is out: "Didn't resign. Mutual decision."

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏ @WojYahooNBA
Another source confirms D'Antoni ouster with Knicks, tells Y!: "Conflicting visions of club's future...Mutual decision to no longer coach."

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Great. Start the Isaiah rumors now.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Well, the anti D'Antoni crowd has gotten their wish. Which, for some reason, involved Mike Woodson.

Dan D'Antoni and Phil Weber are out too, so the Knicks have no coaching staff outside of Woodson. Nothing but iso's from here on out.

I wish I thought this was good news.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Well, the anti D'Antoni crowd has gotten their wish. Which, for some reason, involved Mike Woodson.

Dan D'Antoni and Phil Weber are out too, so the Knicks have no coaching staff outside of Woodson. Nothing but iso's from here on out.

I wish I thought this was good news.

Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?

I guarantee the front office has no plan in place. They'll ride out the rest of this season, miss the playoffs, and get shot down by Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, and settle on their fourth choice. Either that, or Dolan will just bring back Isiah tomorrow. It seems like anytime the organization is in any sort of flux, that's the first call Dolan makes.

[TomRicardo]

Herrrrrrrrb!

I have no idea what's going to happen here now with the roster. Do you go for a full housecleaning and make the Melo/Tyson for Howard deal if its on the table in 24 hours?

Howard will jump the river to Brooklyn in a second once gets his chance this summer.

[Brickowski]

Carmello can add "coach killer" to his resume.

[Stu Nahan]

I still don't see what this fixes. The Knicks are a disaster. I feel like this year has to be the worst in this run of futility. Factoring in the expectations going into the year and the way it has unfolded, this has been especially awful.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Yeah, it doesn't fix anything, unless you believe Chris Broussard, who says the Knicks had tuned D'Antoni out.

If you believe Howard Beck, Ken Berger, or Al Iannazzone, though, this probably made things worse. They all reported today that Knicks players--Amare included--supported D'Antoni and were frustrated with Carmelo for refusing to buy into the system. And based on body language on the court, and Chris Broussard's record, I'm much more inclined to trust Beck and Berger.

So basically, the message was sent that this is Carmelo's team and that it's okay for him to stomp his feet, sit out of huddles, and show up his teammates when they don't get him the ball exactly where he wants it. Knicks basketball at its finest.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 14 March 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[TomRicardo]

Because the Bucks are morally opposed to the playoffs.

Edited by TomRicardo, 14 March 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[fairlee76]

Carmello can add "coach killer" to his resume.

He did his best with George Karl, but LaLa's desire to be in NYC prevented that feud from running its course.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

I think Melo would be well advised to come out tonight and go 12/15 for 32/10/8 and take a few charges. That's the best and only way for him to win this argument.

[lars10]

I'd be inclined to agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that everybody else on the team was on board with D'Antoni.

But I get it, you hate D'Antoni and that's not gonna change. Fair enough.

And most 'STARS' play within a teams defense at the least and usually attempt to make some effort to play within a teams offense.

At what point do you (3rd person 'you') start blaming a star for bringing a team down for his own stats? The team obviously plays better with Melo (I always read that as MElo) off the court. I think Melo thinks he's a top 5 player without having to try...but when you know a player is going to try and take the last shot every time..or is going to go 1 on 1 or 1 on 5 or whatever..it makes the other teams defense that much easier. Especially if that player is not hitting his shots. I guess I could be wrong..but given the Knicks diverse talent and overall mediocre talent to above average talent they seem to play far better as a team with or without Melo on the floor..if Melo doesn't buy in he shouldn't be out there..and definitely shouldn't be encouraged.

Edited by lars10, 14 March 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Woodson displaying vastly different substitution patterns in the first quarter. Brings in the entire second unit for the last 3-4 minutes of the first. Change!

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Wow. The Blazers are horrendous. D'Antoni really should've checked the schedule before resigning today.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Wow. The Blazers are horrendous. D'Antoni really should've checked the schedule before resigning today.

Definitely a good team to get the new era started with. Portland is in the midst of their own mutiny at the moment, and McMillan wont last much longer.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 14 March 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[rembrat]

All class by the Knicks tonight.

[jon abbey]

All class by the Knicks tonight.

It's not the Ivy League, let them take out their frustration. They even put in Bibby for 7 minutes, not sure you can ask much more than that from pros.

[jon abbey]

This guy is a pretty entertaining Knicks follow:

netw3rk ‏ @netw3rk

The Knicks are pulling a train on a corpse.

[jon abbey]

Big win for NY in Indiana, who came out really hard after being embarrassed by the Knicks last night in NY (down by 30 after 3). But after a big first quarter, IND had only 53 points in the last three quarters, and Lin had his best game in weeks, drawing foul calls and frustrating the defense, and making a bunch of slick plays on D, doubling down, etc. Melo was pretty bad, but it didn't matter, and Woodson is really into the games, yelling at players when they have obvious bad fuckups, and calling timeouts when he should.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Big win for NY in Indiana, who came out really hard after being embarrassed by the Knicks last night in NY (down by 30 after 3). But after a big first quarter, IND had only 53 points in the last three quarters, and Lin had his best game in weeks, drawing foul calls and frustrating the defense, and making a bunch of slick plays on D, doubling down, etc. Melo was pretty bad, but it didn't matter, and Woodson is really into the games, yelling at players when they have obvious bad fuckups, and calling timeouts when he should.

You and Bartlett were definitely right about this. It's had a really serious effect, very quickly. In fact, given some of the quotes I've read, I think I misinterpreted the view the players had of D'Antoni. Even Amare seems to be on board. I still have some doubts about Woodson's offense, but he's definitely provided a spark to a team that needed one badly.