1179 replies to this topic

[Grin&MartyBarret]

13 assists in 26 minutes tonight, looks like he's done for the night with NY up by 27.

Even though the points were down, this was one of his better games, save for a stretch late where he had 3 quick turnovers. This was the first time I saw him play the role of pure point guard and not look to score first, and the results were good. The scoring was spread out well; Landry led the team with 15, Novak and Walker had 14 a piece, and four other guys scored double figures.

On the turnovers: It's been pointed out a couple of times that he has more turnovers in his first 6 starts than any player since sometime in the 1977-78 season, and while that's obviously not a great thing, it's also a bit misleading. He's had the ball in his hands pretty much all game every game, so while the number of turnovers seems unusually high, his turnover rate is actually a very decent 17.73%. Here's how that stacks up against some of the best PGs in the league:

Kidd 31.64%
Nash 24.40%
Rubio 22.74%
Rondo 22.43%
Wall 19.80%
Lowry 19.28%
Lin 17.73%
Williams 17.70%
Westbrook 16.92%
Irving 16.87%
Conley 15.98%
Rose 12.74%
Paul 11.87%

Once Anthony comes back and he and Lin are splitting some possessions, and if Baron Davis ever plays minutes off the bench, Lin's raw turnover numbers will likely drop pretty significantly.

[Judge Mental13]

Random note: Fields had more rebounds than Chandler + Stoudemire combined last night. Don't see that often.

The Kings are an awful team, but Lin's game is very adaptive. He seems very capable offensively of making a big pass or taking a big shot, and he has the basketball IQ to know which one is necessary in each situation.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

So went to the game last night and there's a couple thoughts:

D'Antoni is doing a good job protecting Lin. He's having a great deal of trouble when guarded by quick, aggressive point guards who can pressure the ball effectively, including Isaiah Thomas last night (who, by the way, was booed unmercifully every time he touched the ball--poor kid). As soon as D'Antoni saw this, he put Shumpert back in. It begs the question of what will happen when Lin faces the Rondos of the world.

The difference he makes with the offense on the court is stunning. Of course you can see the difference generally on TV. Its the little things you see in person--guys knowing what spots to be in, cutting, filling lanes with the expectation of getting the ball, body language.

Every time Lin touched the ball the Garden hummed with anticipation, as if everyone in the place just took a collective deep breath in order to let a yell out. And when he makes a play, the reaction borders on religious devotion. Its amazing.

There were, by my unofficial assessment, several times more Lin shirts and jerseys than anyone else including Carmelo. Batshit crazy.

Also, I sat next to four wise guys straight out of central casting--drinking jack and cokes the whole time, picking on the couple sitting in front of us, talking about rats. I couldn't understand how the one sitting directly next to me didn't know who Lin was. Turned out that he just got out of prison and coming to the game was part of his crew's way of celebrating his return. Fun times in the Garden.

[crow216]

So, in the wackiness of watching all these games I admit to trying to think of nicknames and variations of "lin" phrases.

How's this

Carmelo/Lin/Amare

Ca-li-mare

[AlNipper49]

He was just on Boomer and Carton and couldn't have come off as a nicer guy

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Also, I'd just like to point out that the Knicks are playing the worst team in the NBA on Friday and the cheapest seat available on Stubhub is $160 dollars. Meanwhile, next Wednesday if anybody wants to go see possible future Net Dwight Howard play the Nets, tickets are available for $1.98. And if you're busy that night, you can check out the Clippers a week later for $6.00 or the Pacers in March for $0.02.

Now, I'm sure ticket prices will jump for the Nets when they move to Brooklyn, and that Howard will drive the price up if he ends up there too, but New York is definitely the Knicks' town.

[moondog80]

He's a free agent after this year, right? If this continues, can the Knicks re-sign him to a crazy deal without shedding major salary?

[jon abbey]

He's a free agent after this year, right? If this continues, can the Knicks re-sign him to a crazy deal without shedding major salary?

http://knickerblogge...ontract-status/

[jsinger121]

He's a free agent after this year, right? If this continues, can the Knicks re-sign him to a crazy deal without shedding major salary?

He's a restricted free agent. They can sign him to whatever deal they want.

[TomRicardo]

He's a restricted free agent. They can sign him to whatever deal they want.

Not true. Not true at all. Please read the article above.

[BigSoxFan]

Also, I'd just like to point out that the Knicks are playing the worst team in the NBA on Friday and the cheapest seat available on Stubhub is $160 dollars. Meanwhile, next Wednesday if anybody wants to go see possible future Net Dwight Howard play the Nets, tickets are available for $1.98. And if you're busy that night, you can check out the Clippers a week later for $6.00 or the Pacers in March for $0.02.

Now, I'm sure ticket prices will jump for the Nets when they move to Brooklyn, and that Howard will drive the price up if he ends up there too, but New York is definitely the Knicks' town.

It's easy to say that when the Nets are 8-22 with absolutely no intrigue and the Knicks are turning their season around and have the hottest story in the league. People aren't going to the Knicks games in droves right now because they're huge Knicks fans (well, some are), they're going because it's trendy right now. If the Knicks were 8-22 with Deron Williams and a pile of crap on the roster, MSG would be lifeless and much cheaper to go to.

Now, I'm not convinced that Howard will end up with the Nets so I think it's possible that NJ/Brooklyn doesn't get good enough to take some of the fairweather fan base that exists in NYC. Basically, the Nets would need a Clippers-esque resurgence to do that.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

It's easy to say that when the Nets are 8-22 with absolutely no intrigue and the Knicks are turning their season around and have the hottest story in the league. People aren't going to the Knicks games in droves right now because they're huge Knicks fans (well, some are), they're going because it's trendy right now. If the Knicks were 8-22 with Deron Williams and a pile of crap on the roster, MSG would be lifeless and much cheaper to go to.

Now, I'm not convinced that Howard will end up with the Nets so I think it's possible that NJ/Brooklyn doesn't get good enough to take some of the fairweather fan base that exists in NYC. Basically, the Nets would need a Clippers-esque resurgence to do that.

Sure, it'd be cheaper. But MSG always sells out and even in the David Lee/Nate Robinson years had a better atmosphere than 90% of NBA arenas. Knicks tickets have never been and never will be selling for two cents against a playoff team.

[BigSoxFan]

Sure, it'd be cheaper. But MSG always sells out and even in the David Lee/Nate Robinson years had a better atmosphere than 90% of NBA arenas. Knicks tickets have never been and never will be selling for two cents against a playoff team.

Well, obviously but I don't agree with that 90% assertion unless you were using it as hyperbole. I've seen several listless crowd in MSG. Sure, it'll never be NJ (I think the Nets may have the worst fan experience in the league) but I don't see the Knicks better than 90% of the league, even in their lean years. I've been to plenty of arenas that have blown MSG out of the water (when the Knicks are bad/mediocre) with respect to atmosphere.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Well, obviously but I don't agree with that 90% assertion unless you were using it as hyperbole. I've seen several listless crowd in MSG. Sure, it'll never be NJ (I think the Nets may have the worst fan experience in the league) but I don't see the Knicks better than 90% of the league, even in their lean years. I've been to plenty of arenas that have blown MSG out of the water (when the Knicks are bad/mediocre) with respect to atmosphere.

90% is definitely an exaggeration in their lean years, but MSG is certainly one of the best places to watch a basketball game in the world, and even when the Knicks are terrible, other team's stars seem to take a special delight in playing in Madison Square Garden. That said, it's my favorite place to watch a game hands down, so I'm biased.

Anyhow, my point with the Nets was more that since Prokhorov bought the team and the move to Brooklyn was finalized, there's been a lot of talk about the Nets as a threat to the Knicks and Prokhorov himself has made a few gestures (the billboard facing MSG, for instance) that suggest he believes that as well. So far, however, his tenure as owner has been pretty uneventful and there's even talk of him selling off the team if his campaign for the presidency of Russia begins to look legitimate. If they miss out on Howard, they're gonna be in a lot of trouble. I think most people, including Nets fans, expected the Nets to be further along in the process of becoming respectable than they are now. Meanwhile, even before Jeremy Lin came along the cheapest seats in the Garden were about 50 dollars, and that was to see an entirely unlikable 8-15 team that was incredibly ugly to watch. There's definitely a lot of subjectivity to my opinion, but I have a feeling that if Howard doesn't end up in New Jersey I'm gonna be going to some Brooklyn Nets games next year for 15 bucks.

[jon abbey]

The new MSG is even better, I think, somehow amazingly intimate.

[BigSoxFan]

Oh, I definitely agree on the Nets. Like I said above, if they don't get Dwight Howard and team him up with Deron Williams, then I don't see the move to Brooklyn having any impact. The Knicks will always have the marketing cache that the Nets don't have. Their best case scenario is basically having a nice 4-5 year run to distract the casual fan. Of course, they had that in the early 2000s and it didn't seem to do much good.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

I went to a game against the Magic in January or February of 2009-- Gallinari's rookie year. For $42, I got two seats in the upper 300s, two sodas and two hot dogs through some David Lee promotion. That team had no more talent or chance of making the playoffs than the Nets do today, and the Garden had a great feel to it, mostly out of excitement to see Dwight Howard. The show he put on dunking during warmups added a level of unexpected energy to the game. When it became close down the stretch due to Gallo hitting a few 3's, the roof came off like it was Game 6 of a second round. Knicks fans are hopelessly optimistic. We believe that every journeyman who comes along and makes a few baskets will flourish under the spotlight of the Garden if only we root hard enough. The Jeremy Lin story is the rarest example of that irrational exuberance coming to fruition.

There's a few reasons why the Knicks outdraw the Nets; no one wants to go to Newark while Cory Booker sends out press releases touting a month without murders, the fact that the Garden is so eminently convenient to get to from anywhere in the tri-state area, the star power of the Garden, corporate sponsorships. But mostly, to me, its that one franchise has a doggedly optimistic fan base forged over generations, and the other relies on a series of marketing gimmicks and shoot-the-moon business plays.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

To add to that, I went to the first game Tracy McGrady played for the Knicks in 2010 against Oklahoma City. McGrady hadn't played more than 8 minutes in a game for 8 months and wasn't supposed to play more than 10 minutes or so. He was acquired strictly for his expiring deal and yet, that night every time he sat down the Garden chanted his name. He ended up scoring 26 in a close game that went to overtime even though Oklahoma City was 10 times the team the Knicks were. Knicks fans have been starved for good basketball for so long that they tried to talk themselves into Tracy McGrady in 2010. I honestly just don't see that same level of devotion in New Jersey (not that anybody is disagreeing with me at this point).

[jon abbey]

NJ really hurt themselves by having their games on Sportschannel for so long, which was an extra pay channel while the Knicks were on MSG with normal cable. NJ still wouldn't be as popular, but if they'd been on for free during the Kidd/K-Mart/Kittles back-to-back FInals heyday, the gap would at least be narrowed a bit.

[runnels3]

The new MSG is even better, I think, somehow amazingly intimate.

Please explain. Not that I don't believe you, but it's hard to understand how they could bring all those sprawling seats closer to the action. Or at least give the illusion thereof.

[jon abbey]

I was only there once, so I will defer to anyone who knows better, but my impression was that the new skyboxes replaced the top tier, so all of the actual seats seem to be closer. I was in the 20th row behind the basket (corporate freebies given to a friend), and I only go once a year if that, so maybe I'm wrong, but that was my impression.

In other news:

Frank Isola @FisolaNYDN

Knicks closing in on a deal for JR Smith, Daily News has learned. Need to cut a player. Two weeks earlier and it could have been Jeremy Lin

[JBill]

Yao on Lin, very...poetic:

"What I see from Jeremy and what I hear in his interviews is he appreciates everything. He pursues his dream. His attitude is so peaceful, but there is strength to him. It is not a violent strength like fire or something aggressive. It is like the ocean, very peaceful, very quiet when you look at it. But you can never underestimate the power that is in there."

http://www.nba.com/2...ls=iref:nbahpt1

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Please explain. Not that I don't believe you, but it's hard to understand how they could bring all those sprawling seats closer to the action. Or at least give the illusion thereof.

They moved the press box from the 100s center court to the 300s baseline, which brings more fans closer, and closed off the old "Willis Reed Tunnel" to put some more seats in. They improved the 100 level seating with better seats. The concourses are modern and way nicer (it used to be pretty bleak).

What remains to be seen is what happens when they add in the bar at the top level and skywalkway features. Are you turning it into something too amusement-parkish? Right now, the "feel" of the place remains basically like last year. Its all just a little nicer.

As for J.R. Smith--I'm pretty excited by this. Becomes the knock down 2 we need to create space for the PnR and for Melo. Shumpert becomes a defensive specialist/energy guy. The question is what will happen to Fields' minutes--he's been playing very very well off of Lin, I don't want to see him get lost in the shuffle.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

I was only there once, so I will defer to anyone who knows better, but my impression was that the new skyboxes replaced the top tier, so all of the actual seats seem to be closer. I was in the 20th row behind the basket (corporate freebies given to a friend), and I only go once a year if that, so maybe I'm wrong, but that was my impression.

The "old" Garden was basically just a giant circle with 4 levels of seating and luxury boxes hanging from the ceiling above the 400 level. There was a walkway between the 200 and 300 level seats that went all the way around the arena, but now behind the baskets you can't walk around because luxury boxes were put much lower and the 300 level seats left there have been pushed forward eliminating the walkway. On one side they created a sort of ledge that comes out over the 300 level seats with 5 or 6 rows of seats and bar style seating at the top like the Monster seats at Fenway. So basically, the seats on either side of the court are all exactly the same, but seats behind the basket have all been shifted forward so there is definitely a more compact feel than in the past. I don't know how it effected the number of seats, but they've done a pretty good job at incorporating more modern amenities into an old building. That said, since only half of the renovations are done, there's an entire side of 400 level seats that have no women's bathroom and only one tiny 4 urinal men's bathroom. In addition, you have to walk to the new bar style area, whatever it's called, to get a beer from there. You can really tell how much went into the renovations by comparing one side of the Garden to the other at this point.

edit: just saw the post above mine. Didn't realize they moved the press box as well so seats on the side of the court are closer too.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 16 February 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[jon abbey]

As for J.R. Smith--I'm pretty excited by this. Becomes the knock down 2 we need to create space for the PnR and for Melo. Shumpert becomes a defensive specialist/energy guy. The question is what will happen to Fields' minutes--he's been playing very very well off of Lin, I don't want to see him get lost in the shuffle.

This is how I'd go, without Baron and Harrellson:

C: Chandler (34), Amare (10), Jeffries (4)
PF: Amare (26), Melo (10), Jeffries (6), Novak (6)
SF: Melo (26), Fields (16), Novak (6)
SG: Fields (10), Smith (28), Shumpert (10)
PG: Lin (32), Shumpert (16)

total minutes:

Melo-36
Amare-36
Chandler-34
Lin-32
Smith-28
Fields-26
Shumpert-26
Novak-12
Jeffries-10

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Safe to assume Jerome Jordan is the player cut?

[jon abbey]

Safe to assume Jerome Jordan is the player cut?

That would be a mistake, Bibby is dreadful with no upside.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Oh, good thought. He slipped my mind.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

I'd cut Balkman. Bibby by all accounts has a good locker room presence, plus a vet who's been there before. He's getting 10 minutes a night max and we need some sort of backup point till Davis gets back.

Balkman has no relevance on this team. Where does he get minutes with a frontcourt of Melo/Chandler/Amare/Jeffries/Novak/Walker and Fields needing more minutes at the 3? Jordan is at least a project who could someday have a bit of trade value.

EDIT: Forgot about Bill Walker. Only reinforces the case.

Edited by A Bartlett Giamatti, 16 February 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[singaporesoxfan]

I only caught it on the WSJ podcast, so I don't know the full details, but according to the Journal about two weeks ago, before Linsanity started, the Knicks had the most expensive resale tickets in the NBA. So yeah, MSG is always a draw.

[singaporesoxfan]

Yao on Lin, very...poetic:

So... it's not the size, it's the motion in the ocean?

[runnels3]

Back to the Garden. Maybe all these upgrades just bridging the way to a new facility a few blocks west? It'll be awhile for sure, if and when...

http://www.nytimes.c...ner=rss&emc=rss

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

[simplyeric]

It's easy to say that when the Nets are 8-22 with absolutely no intrigue and the Knicks are turning their season around and have the hottest story in the league. People aren't going to the Knicks games in droves right now because they're huge Knicks fans (well, some are), they're going because it's trendy right now. If the Knicks were 8-22 with Deron Williams and a pile of crap on the roster, MSG would be lifeless and much cheaper to go to.

Now, I'm not convinced that Howard will end up with the Nets so I think it's possible that NJ/Brooklyn doesn't get good enough to take some of the fairweather fan base that exists in NYC. Basically, the Nets would need a Clippers-esque resurgence to do that.

I think that underestimates the energy that I think Brooklyn will put behind this team. Obviously, a better team will have better results. But long-term, I think there will be more "brand loyalty" in Brooklyn than in Manhattan. Brooklyn has a lot of "pride" in what it is. And I think they've been craving a team, any team, for a long time.
The guys at my corner deli are almost certainly going to become Nets fans.
I think the Nets is going to be /huge/ for Brooklyn.

[JakeRae]

If I were the Knicks, I'd offer Melo for Howard and see if I could swing a deal with Chandler to bring back a solid 3. Orlando might be willing to settle for Melo for Howard as it at least gives them some star power to draw fans as the team declines into mediocrity post-Howard.

Melo is not a championship caliber player. He doesn't play defense, he doesn't pass well, and he is not an efficient scorer. Howard is a championship caliber player.

Lin, 2, 3, Amare, Howard is a decent core to build around and would be devastating running the high pick and roll if the guys at the 2 and 3 slots are off-ball shooters.

[cromulence]

Ah beat me to it. Damn. I'm linconsolable.

Edited by cromulence, 16 February 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

According to Knicksblog.com, Balkman will be cut today to make room for Smith.

Sources close to the situation have told TKB that in order to make room for the signing of guard J.R. Smith the team will indeed release Renaldo Balkman after failing to complete trades for existing players on the roster including Balkman, Bill Walker, and Toney Douglas.
There was a thought that the team would consider cutting Mike Bibby, but because of the uncertainty surrounding the return of Baron Davis, who we reported may not return until near/after the All-Star break, Bibby will be kept for PG depth.
Once everything is said and done it would appear as if Smith will make his debut versus the Mavs on Thursday.

I would assume this means he'd make his debut Sunday against the Mavs.

[TomRicardo]

Wow I am shocked JR choose the Knicks over the Clippers. That is fairly dumb

Edit - I think the Knicks could offer him more money.

Edited by TomRicardo, 17 February 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[BigSoxFan]

There are reports that Jeremy Lin is going to go on a date with Kim Kardashian (obviously for a nice chunk of change). Well, he had a nice run.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

Wow I am shocked JR choose the Knicks over the Clippers. That is fairly dumb

Edit - I think the Knicks could offer him more money.

The only shocking thing will be when an NBA player takes less money. The Knicks could offer him twice the money, and a player option for next year (though he will make much more in FA, its nice insurance against an injury).

[jon abbey]

The only shocking thing will be when an NBA player takes less money.

People need to stop saying this, it was way more true a few years ago. LeBron and Bosh took less money, as does any top free agent who switches teams. I'm guessing if it was solely about the money, Smith could have gotten more than a pro-rated $2.5M from a team that wasn't the Clippers or Knicks or Lakers.

[TomRicardo]

The only shocking thing will be when an NBA player takes less money. The Knicks could offer him twice the money, and a player option for next year (though he will make much more in FA, its nice insurance against an injury).

He is going to cost himself a lot more money in the less short term. Starting at 2 for the Clippers would look a lot better than desperately fighting for minutes against Shumpert, Fields, Davis, Lin etc.

He really feels he is going to walk in and start over Fields...

[BigSoxFan]

He is going to cost himself a lot more money in the less short term. Starting at 2 for the Clippers would look a lot better than desperately fighting for minutes against Shumpert, Fields, Davis, Lin etc.

He really feels he is going to walk in and start over Fields...

Not only would Smith start at the 2, he'd also fill a huge need that the Clips have right now for perimeter offense. Chris Paul can hit the 3 but doesn't take too many of them. Butler shoots about 38%. Ditto for Mo Williams but he really can't co-exist with Paul due to defensive issues. And Foye only shoots about 33%. I just can't see Smith getting too many shots on the Knicks with Carmelo and Stoudamire in the lineup. But maybe there are other reasons for his decision.

[jon abbey]

I don't think the minutes will be too different, he's never played 28 minutes per game in his career, and the Clippers have Mo Williams, who is better than any of NY's other 2 guard candidates. He's probably not going to start over Fields, but that's because he makes more sense coming off the bench with Melo and Amare in the starting unit.

Anyway, very excited he picked NY, he's long been one of my favorite 15-20 players in the league.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

People need to stop saying this, it was way more true a few years ago. LeBron and Bosh took less money, as does any top free agent who switches teams. I'm guessing if it was solely about the money, Smith could have gotten more than a pro-rated $2.5M from a team that wasn't the Clippers or Knicks or Lakers.

Fair. I guess the better way to look at it is that once a certain threshold is met, money is usually a bigger tiebreaker than market/situation/friendships. Jamal Crawford was one Knicks-related example (liked Portland and NY, Portland could offer more so he went there). I guess Smith could have gotten more from Minnesota or Indy--someone under the cap. But when he was clearly going New York or LA, the money mattered most.

[Grin&MartyBarret]

He is going to cost himself a lot more money in the less short term. Starting at 2 for the Clippers would look a lot better than desperately fighting for minutes against Shumpert, Fields, Davis, Lin etc.

He really feels he is going to walk in and start over Fields...

He may feel that way, but the best role for him is to be the primary scorer on a second, defensive minded unit that includes guys like Shumpert, Jeffries, and Harrelson. We'll see how he takes to that.

I'm a little disappointed in the decision to cut Balkman. He seems like the ultimate locker room guy, and with the addition of another guard, Bibby shouldn't be seeing the floor at all this year. This may be an indication that the weird elbow infection Baron Davis has is going to keep him out longer than anticipated.

[jon abbey]

He seems like the ultimate locker room guy

If that means he's the one who scores weed for the team, Smith can presumably take over that role now.

[TomRicardo]

JR will probably act as designated driver.

[ifmanis5]

NY Times reporting that MSG and the Knicks have reached a deal. Let the Linolution be televised.

[A Bartlett Giamatti]

NY Times reporting that MSG and the Knicks have reached a deal. Let the Linolution be televised.

Time Warner. This is a very good thing for a lot of people.