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Jacksonity......or the Knick thread


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#51 TomRicardo


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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:21 AM

Totally. And now Knick fans are forced to spend yet another year waiting to see if a superstar decides to come play at MSG. From dreaming of LeCon to Anthony...........what a terrible way to spend your energies as a fan.


Who does Dolan care? MSG will still sell out. I have to say, it is a lot of fun watching a ball game there even if you aren't a Knicks fan.

#52 Swingandadrive

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 01:56 PM

Knicks Hire Isiah as Consultant

Thomas told ESPN.com Friday that he accepted a more formal and unique consulting position with his former employer, where he will help Knicks general manager Donnie Walsh make decisions on draft picks, trades and personnel decisions.


I'm a little surprised that he can be a consultant to an NBA team while also being the head coach of an NCAA team.

Edited by Swingandadrive, 06 August 2010 - 01:57 PM.


#53 Meff Nelton

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:24 PM

I always find people who say they're going to dismiss a team they rooted for for their whole lives due to a single move pretty silly.

That being said, if the Knicks ever hired Isiah Thomas as Team President/GM/Head coach, I would make a conscious effort to disassociate myself from them for the rest of my life.

#54 teddykgb

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:30 PM

It is truly and completely shocking that the Knicks would employ Thomas in any capacity. that he'd ever be linked with another GM job would require me to make up new superlatives for how absurd a situation that is. If I were a Knick fan and they brought the guy who basically robbed 8 years from the team I'd be absolutely beside myself. I have no idea how any of this is happening or is even close to OK in a sports fandom that is generally quite rabid.

#55 jon abbey


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:37 PM

For all of his numerous, numerous faults, Isiah was a fantastic draft day guy (although David Lee evidently wasn't his choice), so I hope that's the only capacity he is used in. Trevor Ariza at #43 (just to name one) is pretty impressive.

#56 TheYellowDart5


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

There really should be a game show where three contestants pitch ideas for different horrible things for Isiah to do to see if that'll finally be enough for James Dolan to ban him from the franchise for life. Things like hitting Amar'e Stoudemire in the knee with a crowbar, torching the Knicks' championship banners, arranging for Willis Reed to be caught in a child pornography sting, etc.

#57 knucklecup


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 06:18 PM

For all of his numerous, numerous faults, Isiah was a fantastic draft day guy (although David Lee evidently wasn't his choice), so I hope that's the only capacity he is used in. Trevor Ariza at #43 (just to name one) is pretty impressive.


How do you explain Renaldo Balkman?

#58 wutang112878


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 07:28 PM

How do you explain Renaldo Balkman?


I think Zeke is an awful GM, beyond awful, like Kahn incompetent awful. But he was pretty good at the draft. The Balkman pick wasnt great, but he was taken 20th overall, and if Rondo wasnt still on the board there really wasnt much else left that would have been a better choice.

Why the Knicks would hire him is beyond me. He completely ruined the franchise, kept them in salary cap hell for his entire tenure, and traded away a bunch of first rounders, truly setting the franchise back years and years. How he is still on good terms with them is beyond me.

#59 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 08:22 PM

I think Zeke is an awful GM, beyond awful, like Kahn incompetent awful. But he was pretty good at the draft. The Balkman pick wasnt great, but he was taken 20th overall, and if Rondo wasnt still on the board there really wasnt much else left that would have been a better choice.

Why the Knicks would hire him is beyond me. He completely ruined the franchise, kept them in salary cap hell for his entire tenure, and traded away a bunch of first rounders, truly setting the franchise back years and years. How he is still on good terms with them is beyond me.


Seeing that Thomas might have been the worst evaluator of NBA talent I have ever seen, any success he managed to have in the draft I chalk up to as luck.

The Knicks are a joke, and rehiring Isaiah Thomas AGAIN, just hammers this home. Nothing is ever going to change until Dolan sells this team. Again, condolences to Jon Abbey.

Edited by Rocco Graziosa, 06 August 2010 - 08:22 PM.


#60 jon abbey


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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:42 PM

Balkman actually did have good potential, he was (is?) a superior athlete even for the NBA, an Ariza type. Sadly, his work ethic did not match his athletic gifts.

Yeah, on the long list of things that kill smart Knicks fans right now is not only Balkman instead of Rondo and Jordan Hill instead of any one of about a trillon PGs, but also Channing Frye instead of Bynum. If any one of those three happens, I bet LeBron is in NY now.

#61 BucketOBalls


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:55 AM

JA is right. Isiah had a decent eye in the draft. I wouldn't consult him on contracts/trades though, other than in a "if he agree's you know you are way overpaying" type thing.

I still can't see why you bring the guy back though. Yeah, he can help you draft, but it's hard to convince your fans your serious about building a contender when you lose out Lebron and then pull something like this.

#62 johnmd20


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:30 AM

For all of his numerous, numerous faults, Isiah was a fantastic draft day guy (although David Lee evidently wasn't his choice), so I hope that's the only capacity he is used in. Trevor Ariza at #43 (just to name one) is pretty impressive.

This is a poor post. Isiah did nothing right, outside of the blind squirrel finding a nut variety in his draft picks. He presided over one of the worst 8 years in NY Knicks history, all the while spending FAR more than other teams. He was also part of a multi million dollar sexual harrassment lawsuit that cost the company 11 million dollars and caused a lot of embarrassment. He also tried to kill himself and then blame it on his daughter. Stand up guy, talented executive, that Isiah.

Anyway, you can't say he was fantastic at anything and I am in complete and utter shock the Knicks would associate themselves with Isiah in any way.

#63 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:53 AM

No, it's not a "poor post". Isiah certainly deserves all the flak he gets, but he has always been very good at drafting, something no one would argue except you, evidently.

#64 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 07:59 AM

A link to an Insider story that has him as the second best drafting GM of the last 20 years:

http://cappingthegam...ead.php?t=85678

#65 BucketOBalls


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:04 AM

Looking, Isiah was responsible for the 2004-2007 drafts(when he wasn't screwing up by trading picks :) ). That's probably to small of a record to say a whole lot. His only high draft pick was Channing Fry at #8. While better guys were taken later(Danny Granger at 17 is probably the best one, although a bunch of teams passed on him), Fry has been a viable rotation player at least and that's not really a high enough pick that you can totally say you should do better; stuff outside the top 3-5 seems to be more a crap shoot.

It's probably to small a sample size, to say much, but his draft record doesn't look terrible. (although the fact that he traded a bunch of first rounders in there is).

Now the stuff Isiah screwed up(pun not originally intended) doesn't make up for the few things he managed to do well in any way shape or form though.

Edited by BucketOBalls, 07 August 2010 - 08:05 AM.


#66 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:11 AM

He also ran Toronto's draft from 1995-1997, including taking Tracy McGrady 9th out of high school. Again, some details at the link above.

Also, the way this is being reported is odd since I believe that Isiah was never totally let go and has always been under contract with NY as a consultant (it's not well documented, but for instance, this link from April 2009 has him still under contract to NY: http://www.nj.com/kn...ks_coach_i.html ), and this is just an extension of his existing deal which maybe expired this summer.

#67 ElUno20

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 08:17 AM

He also ran Toronto's draft from 1995-1997, including taking Tracy McGrady 9th out of high school. Again, some details at the link above.

Also, the way this is being reported is odd since I believe that Isiah was never totally let go and has always been under contract with NY as a consultant (it's not well documented, but for instance, this link from April 2009 has him still under contract to NY: http://www.nj.com/kn...ks_coach_i.html ), and this is just an extension of his existing deal which maybe expired this summer.



that's what i thought. i remember when he was fired as coach they said he was being retained for player evaluations (for the draft).

#68 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:34 AM

No, it's not a "poor post". Isiah certainly deserves all the flak he gets, but he has always been very good at drafting, something no one would argue except you, evidently.



But Jon, when you consider that Thomas was epically bad at everything related to NBA basketball management other than drafting, you can see why people might consider it a fluke, right?

But even if he did have an eye for college talent, when you consider all the other terrible, embarrassing things he did to that franchise, I find it a direct slap in the face to Knick fans for Dolan to hire him back in ANY capacity.

#69 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:39 AM

But Jon, when you consider that Thomas was epically bad at everything related to NBA basketball management other than drafting, you can see why people might consider it a fluke, right?


Not really, he has a seven year track record. Also, Walsh is average to below average at drafting, I still can't believe how he butchered the 2009 picks.

But even if he did have an eye for college talent, when you consider all the other terrible, embarrassing things he did to that franchise, I find it a direct slap in the face to Knick fans for Dolan to hire him back in ANY capacity.


Yes, I agree that it's like inviting the guy who repeatedly raped you and then burned your house down over for tea a couple of years later, but as I said above, he was never really gone. When NY wanted one last push to try to get LeBron right before "The Decision", they sent Isiah to Cleveland.

#70 radsoxfan


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 11:36 AM

But Jon, when you consider that Thomas was epically bad at everything related to NBA basketball management other than drafting, you can see why people might consider it a fluke, right?


It doesn't seem too far fetched to think that young player evaluation is a separate skill-set from making trades, salary evalutation, general decision making, etc.

Thomas' draft record is pretty good in general, so I'm not sure it makes sense that just because he is bad at a ton of other things, that his good drafting is a fluke. Sure, it's possible he just got lucky, but it's also possible he's pretty good at it.

If Isaih was a baseball pitcher, he would be a LOOGY. Very narrow skill-set, but surprisingly decent at one thing. Of course Thomas is so incredibly moronic in just about every other way, there is no chance any team should let him near their front office for any other purpose.

#71 BucketOBalls


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 11:54 AM

If Isaih was a baseball pitcher, he would be a LOOGY. Very narrow skill-set, but surprisingly decent at one thing. Of course Thomas is so incredibly moronic in just about every other way, there is no chance any team should let him near their front office for any other purpose.


Honestly, you wonder if he has pictures, or knows something about the harassment scandle he hasn't told yet. It's just odd that the Knicks would publicize him having any role in the franchise what so ever. Even if he has a usefull skill and you were paying him anyway, I would think that keeping the involvement of a guy your fans CHANTED TO GET RID OF low key would be a good idea.

#72 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:30 PM

Fan perception isn't a reason to make personnel decisions, of course. The supposed reason behind this is buried in the NY Post article:

"The Knicks believe Thomas can be an asset in recruiting free agents in 2011 and 2012, that players regard Thomas differently than the media does. Chris Paul, a 2012 free agent, considers Thomas one of his idols."

http://www.nypost.co...ZbQ3O38bQn8qsjP

Since the only way NY is going to be a title contender anytime soon is if they sign Paul (Carmelo is not a #1 guy on a title team), that's enough reason for me. If Isiah was rehired as the GM or coach, I'd probably stop rooting for the team until he or Dolan or both left, but that's not what's happened here.

#73 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:43 PM

NY signed Roger Mason jr. the other day, another possible rotation player who has had good 3 point shooting numbers when he's been healthy. Their first choice was Shannon Brown, but he turned them down in the end to go back to the Lakers.

Guards: Felton, Douglas, Walker, Mason, Azubuike
Forwards: Amare, Gallo, Randolph, Chandler, Fields
Centers: Turiaf, Mozgov

The first four forwards and Felton are the best players on the team and probably should be the starting lineup (Chandler can start at the 2), but if D'Antoni has any of them coming off the bench, Mason might even start at the 2.

#74 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 04:36 PM

Fan perception isn't a reason to make personnel decisions, of course. The supposed reason behind this is buried in the NY Post article:

"The Knicks believe Thomas can be an asset in recruiting free agents in 2011 and 2012, that players regard Thomas differently than the media does. Chris Paul, a 2012 free agent, considers Thomas one of his idols."

http://www.nypost.co...ZbQ3O38bQn8qsjP

Since the only way NY is going to be a title contender anytime soon is if they sign Paul (Carmelo is not a #1 guy on a title team), that's enough reason for me. If Isiah was rehired as the GM or coach, I'd probably stop rooting for the team until he or Dolan or both left, but that's not what's happened here.


I guess my question is why Isiah? WIth all the negativity surrounding his tenure, was he really the best "asset" Knicks could have hired?

I don't have the same burning hatred of the Knicks as Yanks or Jets, but if I were a Knicks fan wouldn't you say to yourself "here we go again"?

I don't blame Isiah, but do agree with most about Dolan being the single reason for the current hell/pergatory Knicks are in.

#75 Ho Chi Minh

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 06:56 PM

Now the word is the Donnie Walsh might retire, and Kevin Pritchard is a possible replacement.

Every dark cloud has a silver lining.


Donnie Walsh tried and you know what he did an okay job. Yes they lost picks but the knicks control their own destiny now. They can afford two Max players after Curry's contract is done, and that credit belongs to Walsh.

And I thought Allan Houston was next in line to be GM.

#76 SemperFidelisSox


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 11:00 PM

I'm sure the new GM will be thrilled to have Isiah undermining his authority by speaking with free agents behind his back.

#77 jon abbey


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Posted 07 August 2010 - 11:33 PM

I changed the thread title, because seeing condolences to me on the home page periodically was strange.

#78 theceatles

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE (mahky bellhorn @ Jul 8 2010, 11:51 PM) Not to mention, he's 6'10 and can do this.


I really don't get why Don Nelson would play this guy less than half a game with that shitty team and Randolph's great potential, just because he doesn't like "young" guys (Thankfully he didn't extend that stubborn approach to Curry - 36 MPG). 6'10" PF's are not supposed to do shit like that.

#79 Rocco Graziosa


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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:33 PM

Fan perception isn't a reason to make personnel decisions, of course. The supposed reason behind this is buried in the NY Post article:

"The Knicks believe Thomas can be an asset in recruiting free agents in 2011 and 2012, that players regard Thomas differently than the media does. Chris Paul, a 2012 free agent, considers Thomas one of his idols."

http://www.nypost.co...ZbQ3O38bQn8qsjP

Since the only way NY is going to be a title contender anytime soon is if they sign Paul (Carmelo is not a #1 guy on a title team), that's enough reason for me. If Isiah was rehired as the GM or coach, I'd probably stop rooting for the team until he or Dolan or both left, but that's not what's happened here.


Why would a potential free agent listen to anything Thomas said? He's been a collosal failure everywhere he's gone since he stopped playing, and his history is littered with him clashing with players and other employees. Every bit of evidence we have suggests that he's a raving lunatic asshole.

#80 TomRicardo


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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:47 PM

James Dolan really hates New York. That is the only explanation at this point. I mean he runs the Knicks the same way I would run the Yankees. He fills them with false hope, doesn't deliver, makes a couple of disastrous and head scratching moves, and then just when people are about to walk away fills them up with hope again. Dolan is the greatest comedian of our time.

Seriously I went out drinking with a Knicks fan Friday. Good Lord. He really truly believes that they will make a second big 3. Like it was a fact. Same way the believed without a shadow of a doubt LeBron was coming to New York.

I can just see Dolan giggling in the back of his office after hiring Thomas.

#81 teddykgb

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 02:23 PM

It's funny to see jon abbey so seriously undervaluing Carmelo Anthony. He may be a bit too much of a volume player, but he's really not much different from paul pierce at similar stages in their careers. He's played for some better teams, but he's a tremendously effective swingman who has never really had the horses around him. He was absolutely effective playing with the latest incarnations of the dream team and was mostly their best player. If he were to go to NY with Amare, that team would absolutely contend for a title. Add Paul to the mix and I worry a bit about their defense but they'd be one hell of a squad.

#82 jon abbey


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Posted 11 August 2010 - 05:45 PM

The Isiah thing is dead, thankfully:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=5456334

Not sure what I said about Carmelo, but he's certainly not a #1 guy on a title team, and if you really think he and Amare make a title contender, you don't pay much attention to the defensive end of the floor. Carmelo is a volume scorer, he's not above average at anything else, rebounds, assists, defense and he's not an efficient scorer. He's more of a Ray Allen than he is a Paul Pierce (in their primes). This article says it better than I could (Insider):

http://insider.espn....tory?id=5439653

#83 knucklecup


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Posted 11 August 2010 - 08:22 PM

Carmelo has always been one of the most overrated players in the league, IMO. Even during his title run at Syracuse, I thought he got more praise than he deserved.

#84 teddykgb

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:56 AM

I'm going to try to paste stats in here and I have no clue if that's going to work or not, but Pierce is an excellent comparison:

Paul Pierce early career, note the FGA since the assertion is that Carmelo is nothing more than a volume scorer:
Season  	Age  	Tm  	Lg  	G  	GS  	MP  	FG  	FGA  	FG%  	3P  	3PA  	3P%  	FT  	FTA  	FT%  	ORB  	DRB  	TRB  	AST  	STL  	BLK  	TOV  	PF  	PTS2000-01  	23  	BOS  	NBA  	82  	82  	3120  	687  	1513  	.454  	147  	384  	.383  	550  	738  	.745  	94  	428  	522  	253  	138  	69  	262  	251  	2071
2001-02 	24 	BOS 	NBA 	82 	82 	3302 	707 	1598 	.442 	210 	520 	.404 	520 	643 	.809 	81 	485 	566 	261 	154 	86 	241 	237 	2144
2002-03 	25 	BOS 	NBA 	79 	79 	3096 	663 	1592 	.416 	118 	391 	.302 	604 	753 	.802 	106 	472 	578 	349 	139 	62 	288 	227 	2048
2003-04 	26 	BOS 	NBA 	80 	80 	3099 	602 	1497 	.402 	115 	384 	.299 	517 	631 	.819 	69 	453 	522 	410 	131 	52 	303 	234 	1836
2004-05 	27 	BOS 	NBA 	82 	82 	2960 	556 	1223 	.455 	108 	292 	.370 	549 	668 	.822 	78 	461 	539 	348 	133 	39 	230 	255 	1769
2005-06 	28 	BOS 	NBA 	79 	79 	3084 	689 	1462 	.471 	111 	314 	.354 	627 	812 	.772 	77 	453 	530 	375 	107 	34 	273 	223 	2116

Now, Carmelo

2003-04  	19  	DEN  	NBA  	82  	82  	2995  	624  	1465  	.426  	69  	214  	.322  	408  	525  	.777  	183  	315  	498  	227  	97  	41  	247  	225  	1725
2004-05 	20 	DEN 	NBA 	75 	75 	2608 	530 	1230 	.431 	42 	158 	.266 	456 	573 	.796 	141 	285 	426 	194 	68 	30 	224 	229 	1558
2005-06 	21 	DEN 	NBA 	80 	80 	2941 	756 	1572 	.481 	37 	152 	.243 	573 	709 	.808 	122 	272 	394 	216 	88 	42 	218 	229 	2122
2006-07 	22 	DEN 	NBA 	65 	65 	2486 	691 	1453 	.476 	40 	149 	.268 	459 	568 	.808 	143 	248 	391 	249 	77 	23 	234 	203 	1881
2007-08 	23 	DEN 	NBA 	77 	77 	2806 	728 	1481 	.492 	58 	164 	.354 	464 	590 	.786 	178 	393 	571 	259 	98 	39 	253 	253 	1978
2008-09 	24 	DEN 	NBA 	66 	66 	2277 	535 	1207 	.443 	63 	170 	.371 	371 	468 	.793 	106 	344 	450 	222 	75 	24 	199 	195 	1504
2009-10 	25 	DEN 	NBA 	69 	69 	2634 	688 	1502 	.458 	59 	187 	.316 	508 	612 	.830 	152 	302 	454 	222 	88 	30 	209 	225 	1943
Career 			NBA 	514 	514 	18747 	4552 	9910 	.459 	368 	1194 	.308 	3239 	4045 	.801 	1025 	2159 	3184 	1589 	591 	229 	1584 	1559 	12711

They're essentially both 1500 shot guys with mid 40% shooting. Carmelo doesn't shoot the 3 as well in general, and his rebounding is only now catching up, but early in each player's career, they're tremendous volume scorers on teams that have achieved only mediocre success. Has Carmelo played on a great team, or has he made otherwise mediocre players into better players? Pierce didn't really figure it all out until he was around 28 years old.

Maybe Carmelo pans out, maybe he doesn't, but if I'm a Knick fan I'm absolutely excited about the prospect of seeing Carmelo Anthony "get it" in New York with a few all star teammates.

#85 BigSoxFan


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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:18 AM

If Carmelo can't be the alpha dog on a championship team, then who can? There aren't too many players who are better than him. Right now, I'd probably list:

LeBron
Wade
Kobe
Paul
Durant
Howard

And it's not like the Knicks are getting any of those guys except for maybe Chris Paul, if the rumors are true. Getting Carmelo would be a huge boon for the franchise.

#86 Rustjive

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:25 AM

It's more than excellent. Carmelo has always been compared to Pierce, but realize that he's done almost everything better. He's taller, he's younger, he's got a better midrange shot, he won in college, etc. Pierce through the same seasons was better at drawing fouls and shooting the 3.

#87 fairlee76

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:24 AM

Carmelo has always been one of the most overrated players in the league, IMO. Even during his title run at Syracuse, I thought he got more praise than he deserved.

While I agree that Carmelo has always been overrated as a pro (slightly, IMO), he has to be respected for leading an otherwise good but not great Syracuse team to the NCAA title. The dynamic of that Syracuse team reminded me a lot of the 1987-88 Kansas team once the tourney started; a clear cut leader and a bunch of guys playing their roles perfectly.

I see no reason to believe that Carmelo does not "get it" over these next few seasons and commit more energy to defense. Do not see the same potential with Amar'e.

#88 BucketOBalls


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Posted 12 August 2010 - 02:02 PM

It's more than excellent. Carmelo has always been compared to Pierce, but realize that he's done almost everything better. He's taller, he's younger, he's got a better midrange shot, he won in college, etc. Pierce through the same seasons was better at drawing fouls and shooting the 3.


Pierce has generally been a better player than Carmelo(through equivilent career stages. Carmelo is better now of course due to the age thing). Pierce has always been a better defender(Kansas actually teaches you well here), although it wasn't as noticeable due to his teamates and him carrying the scoring load. When he got better teammates, his defense improved, which hasn't really happened with Carmelo. He's also been a better passer, rebounder, 3 point shooter and much more durable.

I would agree the Carmelo is not really an AI-like volume scorer though. He's slighly over-rated(mainly due to being compared to Lebron, when it isn't really close). He's a very good player and could be significant piece on the right team.


That said, they are close enough that Pierce is probably a good comp. If you got 2 other players of close to the same level then you have a darn good, possibly championship-contending, team(CP3, Carmelo and Amare...maybe; I'm not a huge STAT fan, although Chris Paul might be good enough to make up for it).



If I were the Knicks, Carmelo's health record would worry me. He's been around a ~70 ish game a year guy, and it seems like those guys sometimes start to have real problems as they get up in age(sometimes they don't), but it's something to be wary of.

#89 Rustjive

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 02:27 PM

Pierce has generally been a better player than Carmelo (through equivilent career stages. Carmelo is better now of course due to the age thing). Pierce has always been a better defender (Kansas actually teaches you well here), although it wasn't as noticeable due to his teamates and him carrying the scoring load. When he got better teammates, his defense improved, which hasn't really happened with Carmelo. He's also been a better passer, rebounder, 3 point shooter and much more durable.

I don't agree with this. For one thing, in terms of passing and rebounding, Carmelo is a 3.1 ast/36 type of player for his career and Pierce is a 3.7 ast/36 type of player, but there are significant differences that explain this disparity. For one, style of play - Pierce dominated the ball when he played, and he would drive to the hoop and dish it out. On the other hand, Carmelo is more apt to take and hit the midrange shot. In addition, teammates matter. I mention that Pierce dominated the ball, and that's absolutely true because the Celtics for the longest time had no point guard. Carmelo has played with Andre Miller, then Iverson, then Billups. Pierce only wishes he had those players alongside him in his earlier years.

In addition, Pierce does play better defense, but let's not pretend that this is due to laziness on Carmelo's part or talent. Pierce has had Jim O' Brian and then had his defense transformed by the addition of Thibodeau and Garnett. Carmelo has had George Karl. Coaching and schemes have a lot to do with it.

Finally, when it comes to rebounds, Carmelo is a 6.1/36 rebounder, Pierce a 5.9/36. Career rebound rate for Carmelo is 9.6%, while for Pierce it's...9.6%.

#90 radsoxfan


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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:42 PM

They're essentially both 1500 shot guys with mid 40% shooting. Carmelo doesn't shoot the 3 as well in general, and his rebounding is only now catching up, but early in each player's career, they're tremendous volume scorers on teams that have achieved only mediocre success. Has Carmelo played on a great team, or has he made otherwise mediocre players into better players? Pierce didn't really figure it all out until he was around 28 years old.

Maybe Carmelo pans out, maybe he doesn't, but if I'm a Knick fan I'm absolutely excited about the prospect of seeing Carmelo Anthony "get it" in New York with a few all star teammates.


I would agree Pierce is a very good offensive comp for Anthony. But I would hesitate to use season total stats to do comparisons since the games played issue can skew things dramatically in some cases. Carmelo has a few seasons in there when he played less than 70 games, which alters things a bit. But fortunately, in general, the numbers pretty much say the same thing no matter how you slice it in this case. They are very similar, with Pierce's only clear advantage being 3 PT shooting.

Calling Carmelo out for his faults is certainly valid. But you have to make sure you realize those faults knock him down from being a Lebron/Wade type player to a Paul Pierce in his prime type player. That's not exactly a terrible guy to be compared to. Carmelo is still quite an effective offensive player, and I think could be a key part on a championship team.

One aspect of his game that is still up in the air is his defense. To this point in his career, he has only showed defensive effort and ability in stretches (like Pierce at the same age actually). If he turns the corner like Paul and can consistenly be above average defensively, he will be quite valuable, and likely worth the max (or very close to it) in his prime years.

#91 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 08:36 AM

After two preseason games, it's pretty clear that this team is going to struggle mightily rebounding the ball again. I would guess that's going to translate to more minutes for Mozgov and Turiaf, neither of whom have shown the ability to hit the 15 foot jump shot that's going to be very important to this new Amari-centric offense. I was naively hoping we'd see a lot of the Randolph-Amare-Gallo-Chandler-Felton lineup, and that the length of that lineup might turn into rebounds, but it doesn't look likely at this admittedly early juncture. 

#92 86spike


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Posted 26 October 2010 - 10:05 AM

Interesting comments from recently departed Phoenix GM Steve Kerr about Amare's knees:

Former Suns GM Steve Kerr, who resigned over the summer to return to the TNT broadcast booth, confirmed that Phoenix was reluctant to give Stoudemire a fully guaranteed contract because of his medical history. The Suns' offer was $71 million over five years with incentives.

"He's about six years post micro-fracture (knee) surgery now and generally speaking about eight years after the surgery is when guys start to fade," Kerr said. "We did a lot of research on it. Jermaine O'Neal is a good example of that.

"You have to remember that every franchise is in a different circumstance when free agency comes up. The Knicks needed Amar'e for credibility. We were very concerned about years three, four and five and how it could have hamstrung us cap-wise. Ultimately, we weren't willing to take that risk."


Stayed tuned for 2012

edit to add the link: link

Edited by 86spike, 26 October 2010 - 10:06 AM.


#93 Mike in CT



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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:36 PM

Yahoo! Sports/Woj reporting that the Knicks may have conducted illegal pre-draft workouts the past 4 years.
http://sports.yahoo....icksdraft102610

If true, I imagine they will pay a heavy price (picks, fine).

Edited by Mike in CT, 26 October 2010 - 02:38 PM.


#94 jon abbey


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Posted 26 October 2010 - 04:27 PM

Isiah Thomas, the gift that never ever ever stops giving.

#95 jon abbey


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Posted 25 November 2010 - 12:10 AM

NY quietly with their first five game winning streak since early 2006, admittedly against weak opposition but four road wins in a row is impressive against pretty much anyone.

Pleasant surprises:

Landry Fields: this 2nd round pick, who was the first player ever drafted not to be in Chad Ford's top 100, has started every game and has been a nice asset. He's a bit like a Battier type, no ego and no need to shoot, he's played very well so far.

Ronny Turiaf: I knew he was a good 20 minute per game energy guy, but he's really helped NY's defense as their starting center. Remarkably NY leads the league in blocked shots, Amare had 6 tonight (!!!), and they were mostly very emphatic.

Disappointments:

Anthony Randolph: I was out of the country for two weeks and missed his brief entry and exit into the rotation. 89 minutes in 8 games so far, he's been a total non-factor thus far.

#96 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:09 AM

 

Landry Fields: this 2nd round pick, who was the first player ever drafted not to be in Chad Ford's top 100, has started every game and has been a nice asset. He's a bit like a Battier type, no ego and no need to shoot, he's played very well so far.

The Times has a piece on Fields today, comparing him to Terrence Williams. It's pretty remarkable how quickly Fields has become a fan favorite in New York. I've been to the Garden a lot this year, and after last night I'm beginning to think he may be the most popular Knick right now. It's funny, I never would have thought to make the comparison, but he really has brought everything to the floor that the Nets expected to get from Williams when they took him 11th overall. He's the sort of player that does everything well, and at this early juncture, as good as Blake Griffin has been, he's going to end up getting some ROY votes. Pretty impressive for a guy that wasn't even invited to the Chicago predraft camp, and had people here speculating in the NBA Draft thread that the Knicks made the pick with no intention of actually signing Fields to save cap room. The front office deserves a lot of credit for finding him. 

edit to include the link to the Times article: http://www.nytimes.c...html?ref=sports


Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 01 December 2010 - 11:10 AM.


#97 jon abbey


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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:17 AM

Fields has been really effective, he's the kind of glue guy most teams need to supplement their stars, and it's really remarkable how quickly he's adapted to the league. That being said, I don't think he's in my five favorite Knicks, I tend to go for the flashy, athletic types.

Felton has been fantastic, beyond what anyone could have expected or hoped for. He had a slew of highlight assists last night, I was amazed to see he only had 10 total in the box score, because he really seemed to own the game.

#98 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:32 AM

 

Felton has been fantastic, beyond what anyone could have expected or hoped for. He had a slew of highlight assists last night, I was amazed to see he only had 10 total in the box score, because he really seemed to own the game.


Agreed. Last night was the first night that Felton and Stoudemire looked truly comfortable running the pick and roll together. Hopefully that's a reflection on them, and not a reflection on the Nets inability to defend the pick and roll. Felton's shooting has also really impressed me. I'm willing to admit that during the pre-season I was down on Felton; there wasn't any question that he'd be an improvement over Duhon/Nate/Sergio from last season, but I was worried that his improved shooting numbers last year were a fluke. So far he's proven me wrong, and has been extremely, extremely good. His TS% is top ten among point guards, and among point guards playing more than 30 mpg he only falls behind Chris Paul, Devin Harris, Steve Nash, and Deron Williams. 

#99 SemperFidelisSox


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Posted 07 December 2010 - 01:21 AM

NY with their second five game winning streak of the season, to go along with the second best road record in the east. 9-1 in their last 10 games. They are certainly taking advantage of a weak schedule to start the season, but in a conference where half the teams are currently under .500, the Knicks could definitely end up being a 7 or 8 seed when all is said and done. And I think making the playoffs is going to be important in showing Melo that he can win there when it comes time to decide whether to sign with them or NJ or somewhere else.

Edited by SemperFidelisSox, 07 December 2010 - 01:22 AM.


#100 BucketOBalls


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Posted 07 December 2010 - 01:32 AM

Speaking of the title.
The NBA is taking over the Hornets.

Your guys shot at Chris Paul just got much better.




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