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Jacksonity......or the Knick thread


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#551 A Bartlett Giamatti

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

The chatter on New York sports radio is about whether this team can win a championship. While I'm firmly rooted in the wait-and-see camp, I still think this is the last best shot.

Due to the cap and the deals they have in place, a lot of these guys won't be back next year.

And if you can't get by Miami with JR Smith, Baron Davis, Novak, etc, it's unlikely it'll happen in the future without them.

#552 BigSoxFan


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:31 PM

The chatter on New York sports radio is about whether this team can win a championship. While I'm firmly rooted in the wait-and-see camp, I still think this is the last best shot.

Due to the cap and the deals they have in place, a lot of these guys won't be back next year.

And if you can't get by Miami with JR Smith, Baron Davis, Novak, etc, it's unlikely it'll happen in the future without them.


It's tough to make that call without having seen how they look with Carmelo in the fold. I will say that the Knicks have significantly upgraded the talent level of their team since last year with Chandler, Smith, and Lin. That's 3 impact player additions without having to subtract anyone from the roster. And Baron Davis might make #4. Right now, the Heat are obviously the best team and the Bulls aren't too far behind. Currently, I'd put the Knicks in that Sixers, Pacers, Magic group of non-contenders. However, unlike the Sixers, Pacers, and Magic, I do think they have the talent to join the Heat/Bulls as serious contenders if it all comes together. The problem for the Knicks is that they'll most likely have to beat both Rose and LeBron without the advantage of home court. That's a tall order.

#553 johnmd20


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 05:37 PM

And William Rhoden from the NY Times chimes in. Shockingly, with a racial angle. And I think he's wrong. Lin is a huge story because he is Asian, there are obviously not too many Asians who have killed it in the NBA. And Lin's story is awesome because he came out of nowhere and has turned the NBA upside down, for a few weeks at least.

Cam Newtown is different for the sole reason he didn't come out of nowhere, he won a National Championship and the Heisman. And Dontrell Willis came out of nowhere and received a ton of fanfare. I kind of feel like Kobe receives a lot of fanfare. So does Lebron. And Tiger Woods, of course, certainly received, uh, A TON of print and adulation.

#554 zeraza

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:01 PM

And William Rhoden from the NY Times chimes in. Shockingly, with a racial angle. And I think he's wrong. Lin is a huge story because he is Asian, there are obviously not too many Asians who have killed it in the NBA. And Lin's story is awesome because he came out of nowhere and has turned the NBA upside down, for a few weeks at least.

Cam Newtown is different for the sole reason he didn't come out of nowhere, he won a National Championship and the Heisman. And Dontrell Willis came out of nowhere and received a ton of fanfare. I kind of feel like Kobe receives a lot of fanfare. So does Lebron. And Tiger Woods, of course, certainly received, uh, A TON of print and adulation.


That's why the Tebow comparisons for Lin also annoy me. Tebow was a highly touted recruit that picked Florida over a slew of other BCS title competitors, then won a National Championship, and got picked (way early) in the first round

Lin had no scholarship offers from any of the D1 NCAA schools, played in the Ivy League, went undrafted, etc.

Oh, and he's actually good

#555 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:08 PM

Looks a heck of a lot like Rashida Jones, who was in The Social Network. It all comes full circle, Mark finally got the girl.


I think Zuckerberg has a long time asian gf, so she should be the girl two seats away from him.

Also, while valid, I agree that the race angle has been overplayed.

#556 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

Baron Davis will see his first action of the year tonight, and Carmelo will be back in the lineup.

Shumpert, however, will be out.

#557 zeraza

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:10 PM

And Tiger Woods, of course, certainly received, uh, A TON of print and adulation.


Just read the article too, and thought of Tiger as well. He pretty much destroys that entire argument too.

Tiger Woods sure as hell got a lot of attention - and while Cam Newton may not be deified, Tiger sure as hell was unlike pretty much any other athlete of this generation outside maybe Jordan.

#558 TomRicardo


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

Thank god Melo is back with his patented brand of zero defense and lazy selfish play to make the Nets look like a real NBA team.

That was horrendous. Does not bode well for a Melo/Lin world. To be fair Amare looked nearly as shitty.

#559 jon abbey


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:32 PM

They missed Shumpert's D on Williams, and the officiating was horrendously one-sided, especially on Chandler, but yeah, Melo was dreadful.

#560 NatetheGreat

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:37 PM

Lin looked gassed as hell, and the entire team couldn't shoot shit, but he still finished with 21pts 7rebounds 9 assists 4stl. The kid just keeps doing this. If you give him touches, which it looks like they'll continue to, he is capable of producing.

Edited by NatetheGreat, 20 February 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#561 dolomite133


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:42 PM

Wow, Melo's return couldn't have gone worse. A loss to the NETS?!?!?!? This guy is going to spend the rest of the season dogging critics.

#562 TomRicardo


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:57 PM

Dribbling away from open shots to try to create an iso to take a shit shot or turn the ball over then half assing down the court playing little to no defense. MELO BALL

#563 dolomite133


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:13 PM

Thankfully the Kincks have D'Antoni to straighten things out. He'll definitely get Melo to give more effort and play hard on defense. Bwah haw haw haw.

#564 Jed Zeppelin


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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:15 PM

Didn't catch the game, how was Lin's D? I was thinking today the best D on the guy might just be to attack him all night at the other end, especially with the kind of minutes he's been playing.

#565 Three10toLeft

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:20 PM

Didn't catch the game, how was Lin's D? I was thinking today the best D on the guy might just be to attack him all night at the other end, especially with the kind of minutes he's been playing.


Didn't watch the game, but according to rotoworld, Derron Williams did just that:

Deron Williams hit a career-best eight 3-pointers in Monday's win over the Knicks, and finished with a season-high 38 points on 10-of-22 shooting (8-of-14 from downtown, 10-of-12 from the foul line), four rebounds, six assists, and a steal.
Williams committed two silly fouls late that kept him out for much of the fourth quarter, but that's the only blemish on his night. He repeatedly went at Jeremy Lin and was clearly on a mission to remind folks who the best PG in the New York area is



#566 NatetheGreat

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 11:53 PM

Lin didn't actually defend that badly--Deron took a shitload of long 3's and made a ton of them. When he actually tried to drive Lin actually did a decent job.

#567 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 08:32 AM

Watching that game and determining that Melo was the issue is flat out lazy analysis. Chandler was in foul trouble and only played 24 minutes and Shumpert, who would have seen a lot of minutes matched up on Williams, didn't play. And Williams won that game for the Nets. Melo only took 11 shots, and off the top of my head, I don't remember him forcing any isos or taking shots that didn't come within the flow of the offense. Sure, the national media made this a story about how Lin and Melo will coexist and are going to turn this loss into a statement about that very thing, but the national media is stupid.

The Knicks deserve a practice or two with Davis, Smith, Melo and Lin all playing together before everybody jumps to the conclusion that Melo is ruining their season. They're a team trying to incorporate a changing roster on the fly in a shortened season with very few practices. It's pointless to draw conclusions based on a single game.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 21 February 2012 - 08:45 AM.


#568 TomRicardo


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

Watching that game and determining that Melo was the issue is flat out lazy analysis. Chandler was in foul trouble and only played 24 minutes and Shumpert, who would have seen a lot of minutes matched up on Williams, didn't play. And Williams won that game for the Nets. Melo only took 11 shots, and off the top of my head, I don't remember him forcing any isos or taking shots that didn't come within the flow of the offense. Sure, the national media made this a story about how Lin and Melo will coexist and are going to turn this loss into a statement about that very thing, but the national media is stupid.


Melo's biggest problem was he wasn't helpful at all on the defensive end. But that is just usual Melo. There were a couple of time he forced isos. One time he got caught in a high trap and hummed the ball as hard as possible through the crowd. Lin somehow collected it then landed an open three.

Melo's problem is and will continue to be lazy movement without the ball.

It is not worth having Melo on the floor if he is going to give zero effort on defense (which caused Lin's and Chandler's foul problem as Melo refused to help with Williams). 4 for 11 with 6 TOs and no defense. That is Isiah Thomas type max player.

#569 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:05 AM

Melo's biggest problem was he wasn't helpful at all on the defensive end. But that is just usual Melo. There were a couple of time he forced isos. One time he got caught in a high trap and hummed the ball as hard as possible through the crowd. Lin somehow collected it then landed an open three.

Melo's problem is and will continue to be lazy movement without the ball.

It is not worth having Melo on the floor if he is going to give zero effort on defense (which caused Lin's and Chandler's foul problem as Melo refused to help with Williams). 4 for 11 with 6 TOs and no defense. That is Isiah Thomas type max player.


Melo caused Lin and Chandler's foul trouble? That seems like a dubious claim to me. Chandler had 5 fouls called against him; one was an offensive foul drawn by Sheldon Williams in which Williams was clearly in the restricted area and a foul shouldn't have been called, one was a loose ball foul drawn by Humphries, two were shooting fouls drawn by Humphries, and one was a technical for following Humphries to the bench and grabbing his arm as he passed by. So even if both shooting fouls on Humphries came about as a direct result of Carmelo failing to help on Williams, which I doubt given that Carmelo would likely have been guarding Anthony Morrow or DeShawn Stevenson who both camp out behind the 3 point line, it's still a bit of a reach to blame Chandler's foul problems on Carmelo. But hey, whatever you need to do to make another Isaiah Thomas reference, right?

And Melo certainly does need to improve his movement off the ball, but like I said, this iteration of the Knicks has been together for all of two weeks now, and while you apparently think it's reasonable to draw a conclusion based on one 4 for 11, 6 TO line and to blame Carmelo for Chandler and Lin's foul trouble, I think it's a bit soon to do that.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 21 February 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#570 A Bartlett Giamatti

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:24 AM

I'm going to rant about Mike D'Antoni for a minute here. Some of my criticism will be completely warranted, some of it will be completely unwarranted character attacks. All will be an over reaction to last night.

Let me begin the case against Mike D'Antoni with a full-frontal assault on his attitude, his general bearing. I believe him to be the single most passive coach in major professional sports. He makes Grady Little look like the third Harbaugh brother.

His answers in post-games are infuriatingly vague, sarcastic, and chagrined.

"They'll have to figure out something that works."
"They need to make more shots."
"I guess we'll see what happens."

His player managment is non existent.

"Oh? JR Smith tweeted that he'll play Sunday? I guess he'll play Sunday." (paraphrasing, but this really happened).
Amare and Carmelo are never pushed to defend, play the team game.
I get no sense anyone is motivating or COACHING THESE FUCKING GUYS.

To me, D'Antoni has an approach to coaching that is most analagous to Ron Paul's approach to governing. The less he does, the better he thinks it'll go. While maybe that has some merit in discussing market dynamics and individual liberty, what it comes down to in basketball is that he simply shirks responsibility for putting the pieces together and does not maximize talent. He's non-confrontational to a fault, relying completely on team leaders like Steve Nash and Tyson Chandler to get results. While peer accountability is great, if there's no one in the executive office to take action, it only goes so far.

How many other coaches out there achieve the least when their talent level is greatest? That is ultimately the story of Mike D'Antoni's time in New York.

Cease Rant.

#571 TomRicardo


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:30 AM

Melo caused Lin and Chandler's foul trouble? That seems like a dubious claim to me. Chandler had 5 fouls called against him; one was an offensive foul drawn by Sheldon Williams in which Williams was clearly in the restricted area and a foul shouldn't have been called, one was a loose ball foul drawn by Humphries, two were shooting fouls drawn by Humphries, and one was a technical for following Humphries to the bench and grabbing his arm as he passed by. So even if both shooting fouls on Humphries came about as a direct result of Carmelo failing to help on Williams, which I doubt given that Carmelo would likely have been guarding Anthony Morrow or DeShawn Stevenson who both camp out behind the 3 point line, it's still a bit of a reach to blame Chandler's foul problems on Carmelo. But hey, whatever you need to do to make another Isaiah Thomas reference, right?

And Melo certainly does need to improve his movement off the ball, but like I said, this iteration of the Knicks has been together for all of two weeks now, and while you apparently think it's reasonable to draw a conclusion based on one 4 for 11, 6 TO line and to blame Carmelo for Chandler and Lin's foul trouble, I think it's a bit soon to do that.

Agree to disagree, I guess


At what point did Melo play defense? Can you point at a single time he rotated to help? The officiating was poor last night so some Chandler's problems was on that.

Melo is one of the most overrated Max players in the league. Fortunately for him he plays next to another one.

Edit - The Knicks will never go anywhere with D'Antoni and Melo.

Edited by TomRicardo, 21 February 2012 - 11:31 AM.


#572 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:39 AM

At what point did Melo play defense? Can you point at a single time he rotated to help? The officiating was poor last night so some Chandler's problems was on that.

Melo is one of the most overrated Max players in the league. Fortunately for him he plays next to another one.

Edit - The Knicks will never go anywhere with D'Antoni and Melo.


You seem to think that this is an argument about whether or not Carmelo is a good defensive player. It's not.

I haven't argued once that Melo is a good defensive player. He's below average and doesn't put much effort in. I agree with you there. And Amare is far worse. In my opinion, Amare is the worst defensive player getting regular minutes in the NBA.

I was just pointing out that it's hyperbolic to blame Carmelo for all of Lin and Chandler's foul problems last night, and that you're really reaching to push your Carmelo as a cancer angle based on one game. Maybe you'll turn out to be right about that, who knows. But as of right now, there isn't a sufficient sample size to make a determination and for all the plays in which Amare and Carmelo stood around last night, there were just as many where the movement off the ball was there. It's a work in progress.

#573 maufman


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 11:46 AM

Also, while valid, I agree that the race angle has been overplayed.


I thought so too, until I talked with a couple Asian people about it. The pride really can't be understated.

Being the first Asian-American NBAer since the merger doesn't make Jeremy Lin in any way comparable to Jackie Robinson, but it's absolutely a huge part of the story.

#574 TomRicardo


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

You seem to think that this is an argument about whether or not Carmelo is a good defensive player. It's not.

I haven't argued once that Melo is a good defensive player. He's below average and doesn't put much effort in. I agree with you there. And Amare is far worse. In my opinion, Amare is the worst defensive player getting regular minutes in the NBA.

I was just pointing out that it's hyperbolic to blame Carmelo for all of Lin and Chandler's foul problems last night, and that you're really reaching to push your Carmelo as a cancer angle based on one game. Maybe you'll turn out to be right about that, who knows. But as of right now, there isn't a sufficient sample size to make a determination and for all the plays in which Amare and Carmelo stood around last night, there were just as many where the movement off the ball was there. It's a work in progress.


I really just don't think D'Antoni is going to make it work.

Lin got into foul trouble because he can't guard Williams alone. Not many guards in the NBA can. Lin isn't an outstanding defensive player but he tries. The problem is when half your team is trying to do one thing and another half is standing around.

This isn't a revelation that Amare and Melo stand around and give half ass defensive efforts. When the Knicks were winning they were playing on both ends and especially tighten up defensively in the fourth quarter. I just can't see a world where D'Antoni gets Melo to play defense without Durant or LeBron on the court. Especially good team defense.

Edit - I would have called a work in progress if Melo gave anything on defensive end of the court at all. He looked almost dumbfounded that people were trying to play defense. Melo didn't piss and moan his way onto a D'Antoni team to play defense.

Edited by TomRicardo, 21 February 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#575 Grin&MartyBarret

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:11 PM

I really just don't think D'Antoni is going to make it work.

Lin got into foul trouble because he can't guard Williams alone. Not many guards in the NBA can. Lin isn't an outstanding defensive player but he tries. The problem is when half your team is trying to do one thing and another half is standing around.

This isn't a revelation that Amare and Melo stand around and give half ass defensive efforts. When the Knicks were winning they were playing on both ends and especially tighten up defensively in the fourth quarter. I just can't see a world where D'Antoni gets Melo to play defense without Durant or LeBron on the court. Especially good team defense.

Edit - I would have called a work in progress if Melo gave anything on defensive end of the court at all. He looked almost dumbfounded that people were trying to play defense. Melo didn't piss and moan his way onto a D'Antoni team to play defense.


I don't disagree with any of that, and I'm firmly entrenched in the camp that finds the other Knicks fans who think this team is a championship contender to be crazy. That said, if D'Antoni has the balls to replace Amare's crunch time minutes with Jared Jeffries and play Shumpert over fields when match ups dictate it, the Knicks are capable of putting a well above average defensive team on the court. But ultimately, I think you're right in that you can probably get away with one Carmelo/Amare type on the defensive end but not two in crunch time.

However, I've definitely seen stretches during which Carmelo has put in effort on the defensive end this year, which is much more than I can say about Amare. The major difference, in my mind, is that Carmelo can still get back what he gives away on the defensive end from time to time. Amare is now the offense's third option, for him, it's going to be extremely rare now that his offensive contributions off set his defensive limitations.

All told, I think the emergence of Lin puts the Knicks in the Sixers/Magic/Pacers/Atlanta group of solid playoff teams without much hope of beating Miami and Chicago. And while that's not the best news in the world, I'm still pretty happy with that considering that 2 weeks ago the Knicks had more in common with the Pistons in that they had a bunch of expensive pieces that didn't seem to work together at all. At least Lin has added a level of cohesion and there's some hope that they're not simply broken.

Edited by Grin&MartyBarret, 21 February 2012 - 12:12 PM.


#576 TomRicardo


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

Look I honestly believe this team would have a chance against the Heat with Melo playing defense.

Chandler/Amare/Melo/Shumpert/Lin is a nightmare scenario for the Heat especially with the Knicks superior bench.

But Chicago would kick the teeth in on that team.

You can deal with Amare being Amare if Melo played up to his ability. Maybe he would for a real coach, not a nine year old with a fake mustache and dyed white hair.

D'Antoni plus Melo is a massive road block. Doc Rivers would coach the Knicks to NBA title.

#577 TomRicardo


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:39 PM

The Heat's biggest problem against the Knicks is Bosh HATES playing against PF like Amare.

I don't think the Heat would have a chance winning in MSG with Melo ripping LeBron's heart out in a completely hostile environment. Wade is the only member of the Heat remotely built to play in playoff MSG. LeBron and Bosh would shrink.

The Knicks getting the eight seed is the Heat's nightmare.

#578 jon abbey


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Posted 21 February 2012 - 01:26 PM

Amare kills Boozer, he had 34 and 11 against the Bulls a few weeks ago. And not that anyone can defend Rose, but Shumpert can at least bother him a bit over the course of a series.

NY reminds me a bit of Dallas last year:

Chandler=Chandler
Melo=Dirk (not really, but play along)
Lin=Barea (NY may get the better of this one)
Smith=Terry
Baron=Kidd

Which mostly leaves Marion and Amare, two former Suns PFs with different strengths.

Much like Dallas, NY would have to both play over their heads and get lucky to make a postseason run, but that's their template. I think if they gel and stay healthy, they can knock off almost anyone, but I'm not sure they can do it 2 or 3 or 4 series in a row. And I agree that I'd feel a lot better about their chances with a better coach, although I'd go Rick Carlisle over Doc Rivers.

#579 Three10toLeft

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:57 PM

Amare kills Boozer, he had 34 and 11 against the Bulls a few weeks ago. And not that anyone can defend Rose, but Shumpert can at least bother him a bit over the course of a series.

NY reminds me a bit of Dallas last year:

Chandler=Chandler
Melo=Dirk (not really, but play along)
Lin=Barea (NY may get the better of this one)
Smith=Terry
Baron=Kidd

Which mostly leaves Marion and Amare, two former Suns PFs with different strengths.

Much like Dallas, NY would have to both play over their heads and get lucky to make a postseason run, but that's their template. I think if they gel and stay healthy, they can knock off almost anyone, but I'm not sure they can do it 2 or 3 or 4 series in a row. And I agree that I'd feel a lot better about their chances with a better coach, although I'd go Rick Carlisle over Doc Rivers.


That's a pretty big "not really but play along" to "play along" with.

#580 JakeRae


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:06 AM

That's a pretty big "not really but play along" to "play along" with.

So is Baron = Kidd. Lin really is not that similar to Barea either, but that comparison is at least close on position and overall quality.

The idea that the Knicks are at all like last year's Mavs is a bit preposterous. Dallas was tied for the second best record in the West and 4th best in the NBA entering the playoffs. The Knicks are currently sitting in 7th place in the East and tied for 16th in the NBA. Dallas was led by a top 10 player. New York is led by either an undrafted free agent who has played about 10 NBA games, or one of two overrated max contract players who it's tough to count as top 20 players. Dallas had been a very good team for years that had failed to achieve a championship level of play and finally bought into the defensive effort necessary to win. New York has struggled to be relevant for years and has both a coach and players that show no signs of ever caring about defense (this criticism does not apply to all Knicks but is true for the team).

I'd love to see Jon Abbey actually justify the comparison of the Knicks to the Mavs. Listing players with equal signs without any explanation of why those equal signs apply is not a justification of that comparison. I really don't see the two teams as comparable nor do I see this Knicks team having a shot at competing in the playoffs.

#581 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:39 AM

This is a crazy year, half of those players just got to NY. It's obviously not a perfect comparison, but I also think it's closer than you guys are saying. Is Chandler close enough to Chandler for you at least? :D

The one place you're wrong or haven't been paying attention (talking to JakeRae) is the defensive one, Chandler (and Shumpert) has turned around NY's D just like he did in Dallas. The recent back to back road comebacks against MIN and TOR were in large part because they held the opposition to 12 and 11 points in the 4th. The main reason that D-Will went off last game is that their perimeter stopper Shumpert wasn't playing.

Edit: NY's defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions) is 6th in the league at 99.7, just ahead of Miami.

Anyway, no one expected Dallas to make a run like they did going into last year's playoffs, and I'd put the chances of NY actually winning four series at somewhere under one percent. I do think the personnel is (potentially) comparable, though, of course depending on Melo.

#582 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:44 AM

As for Davis/Kidd, via John Hollinger:

“Davis had the most valuable assists in the league last season, and it wasn’t even close. Among players with at least 300 assists, Davis’ average assist was worth .841 points, well ahead of the league average of .667. And lest you think that was all from having Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan slamming down dunks, consider that Davis’ assist value didn’t change at all after the trade to Cleveland. More than half of Davis’ assists were layups or dunks, according to Hoopdata.com, compared to the league average of 38 percent; conversely, only 26.3 percent of his dimes were “bad” assists that led to 2-pointers away from the basket.”

#583 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:27 AM

Anyway, all I said was "NY reminds me a bit of Dallas last year" and I don't think that's unreasonable. If you can tell me any two (different) teams in league history in back to back years that are more similar in terms of individual personnel (not team success), I'll be impressed. Obviously the Chandler backbone helps a lot.

#584 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:39 AM

And even the Dirk/Melo comparison isn't entirely ridiculous, even though I think Dirk is a much smarter player. But check out their head to head numbers, and it's worth noting Melo won the only playoff series they've faced each other 4 games to 1 (in 2009):

http://www.basketbal...01&p2=anthoca01

My point is solely that while NY has a ton of work to do to put the pieces together, the pieces (or most of them) are now potentially in place. There's not a whole lot of time left in the season to gel, there are very few chances to practice together, and I'm not an especially big fan of D'Antoni (rumors are that NY is going to make a massive offer for Carlisle in the offseason, I am all for that), but there is a lot of potential there.

#585 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:38 AM

Second straight SI cover for Lin, pretty ridiculous IMO:

Posted Image

#586 stevman17

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:40 AM

I agree with the comparison of NY to Dallas last year, with regards to the pieces being there. I think it's worth noting, however, that it isn't like the Heat didn't put up a fight against Dallas. They basically walked all over the east, taking each series against the 76ers, Celtics and Bulls 4-1, and then won 2 games against Dallas. The losses didn't look pretty, but it isn't like they fell over and died. Finally, the big obvious factor here is Dirk. No one on the Knicks is as talented or hungry as Dirk was last year.

I also agree with TomRicardo that the Knicks are the Heat's worst nightmare. Lebron has historically struggled against Melo, Bosh seems like he underperforms against competent PF's, and the Knicks just plain have a lot of talent. However, to say the Heat wouldn't have a chance is a bit hyperbolic. The Heat do still have Lebron James and Dwyane Wade. Look at what those two are doing right now (Bosh too). If they have that sort of production, there is no team that in the NBA right now that should be expected to beat them in a 7 game series.

Edited by stevman17, 22 February 2012 - 08:42 AM.


#587 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:46 AM

Yeah, I said coming into the season, I'd be pretty surprised if anyone but Miami, OKC or Chicago won the title, and nothing's happened to make me change my mind on that. But NY has a puncher's chance if they gel, not that I'd bet that way.

#588 gammoseditor


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:38 PM

It's worth pointing out that the mavs had the best sixth man in the league last year as well.

#589 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:09 PM

It's worth pointing out that the mavs had the best sixth man in the league last year as well.


You mean Jason Terry? Lamar Odom actually won the sixth man of the year award last year, but I'll take a 26 year old JR Smith over a 33 year old Jason Terry every time. FWIW, Smith's WS/48 last year was higher than Terry's (.121 to .100).

#590 A Bartlett Giamatti

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:29 PM

The Knicks don't have the perimeter defenders (Marion, Stevenson) that the Mavs did, which really allowed them to match up with Miami. Of course, the Mavs dont' have the elite second scoring option the Knicks do, either (if he's at all healthy).

Though, again, the players can be compared but Carlisle vs. D'Antoni cannot.

#591 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:34 PM

Shumpert is an elite perimeter defender, someone tweeted a stat yesterday that he forces a turnover 25.5 percent of the time in 1 on 1 play (!!!), and Jeffries shut down Rondo in a game (I believe last season?) and can guard all five positions similarly to Marion. If you're specifically talking about matching up with Miami, Melo has always played LeBron well head to head.

Totally agreed on Carlisle/D'Antoni, though, man I hope he proves me wrong.

#592 stevman17

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

Totally agreed on Carlisle/D'Antoni, though, man I hope he proves me wrong.


DISCLAIMER: I really have no idea what it takes to play NBA caliber defense. With that being said, how hard is it really to gameplan defense? I mean, it certainly isn't as complicated as defense in football. In my (limited) playing experience, defense is 99% everyone hustling and being on the same page. I don't see why the Knicks couldn't accomplish this.

Couldn't it just be the case that previous D'Antoni teams were full of players who just sucked at D and/or didn't try? (Nash)

#593 rembrat


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:10 PM

Chandler's goonery might have just broken Lin.

#594 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:25 PM

NY is going to go 11 deep when Shumpert and Harrellson are both back, also NY will get three practices together over the break.

JR Smith and Baron Davis both looked a lot better tonight, Smith was playing great D (5 steals in 25 minutes and I think that's low) and Baron had a pep in his step. Once he figures out that he shouldn't pass to Jeffries unless he is so wide open that he can get the rebound of his first missed layup (this happened at least once tonight) and finds the wide open three point shooters like Novak and Smith more, he is going to pile up big assist numbers, he had 6 in 14 minutes tonight (along with 5 turnovers). Monday was the first time he'd played five on five of any kind in I think 10 months, big strides from that game to this one.

#595 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:43 PM

Fields should probably be the odd man out right now if everyone is healthy:

Chandler/Amare/Melo/Shumpert/Lin
Harrellson/Jeffries/Novak/Smith/Davis

#596 A Bartlett Giamatti

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:12 PM

Fields should probably be the odd man out right now if everyone is healthy:

Chandler/Amare/Melo/Shumpert/Lin
Harrellson/Jeffries/Novak/Smith/Davis

Couldn't disagree more. Fields has played exceptionally well with Lin, despite being unable to knock down an open 3. Hopefully that returns, but there's no reason he should give up minutes to Harrelson, Novak or Shumpert (unless its in a circumstance where they need his defense specifically).

Anyway, heard Bobby Knight say on Mike and MIke this morning that he'd have the Knicks practicing 5 on 0 over the break to get acclimated. Nice of the Hawks to comply early tonight.

#597 jon abbey


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:42 PM

Whoever plays alongside Chandler/Amare/Melo/Lin is going to have a ton of space to slash, I'd rather see Smith and Shumpert get all 48 minutes at SG. Lin and Baron should get all 48 at PG (Smith maybe with a few here and there), and I'd rather have Novak and Jeffries in the rotation as the backup forwards right now than Fields, who can't shoot jumpers and isn't very good on D. Harrellson not only shoots 3s better than Fields, he's Chandler's best backup (Jeffries is better at guarding forwards). Fields is playing OK, but I think the other 10 make the best team, for now at least.

So many Fields fanboys amongst Knicks fans, it's like he's everyone's cousin or something. He's had his moments, now the varsity is ready to take over. :)

#598 Jed Zeppelin


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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:55 PM

I'm not sure I've ever seen an NBA player miss a wide open three as badly as he did tonight. He's fine for depth but he simply shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30 minutes for a playoff team.

#599 swingin val

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:30 AM

I'm not sure I've ever seen an NBA player miss a wide open three as badly as he did tonight. He's fine for depth but he simply shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30 minutes for a playoff team.

He plays bad defense. And he missed a three by a lot.

Is that your reasoning? Because almost everything else he has done since becoming a starter points to a guy that should certainly be more than depth on a playoff team.

#600 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:52 AM

I'm not sure I've ever seen an NBA player miss a wide open three as badly as he did tonight. He's fine for depth but he simply shouldn't be getting anywhere near 30 minutes for a playoff team.


I think the correct word for Lin is unpolished. There's obviously something there, otherwise he wouldn't have done the things he did, but then he seems to be doing childish fundamental mistakes. Perhaps this is the reason that everyone discounted him and he keeps doing this sort of mistakes 6 months or a year from now, I bet it would a source of aggravation for Knicks fans.




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