19 replies to this topic

[Quintanariffic]

Land grab!

Surprised it's taken this long for someone to adopt Vinicio.

Jose Vinicio - SS



5'11"
160 lbs.
DOB: 7/10/1993
Bats: Switch
Throws: Right
Hometown: Santo Domingo, DR
Acquired: Signed as IFA July 2009
Bonus: $1.95MM

SP.com says:

Small-framed Dominican shortstop signed to a big bonus at the age of sixteen. Outstanding defensive tools for his age. Above average range and a quick hands. Shows a lot of confidence and swagger in the field. Projects to remain at shortstop. Above average speed on the base paths. Very good bat speed, makes solid contact. Minimal present power. Raw offensively, but more advanced than you'd expect for his age.

SP.com Profile

Here is what they said in his 2010 prospect preview:

Strengths: The Red Sox signed Vinicio back in July 2009 out of the Dominican Republic and will build this shortstop from the ground up. An excellent, wiry athlete, he shows good bat speed that lends projection to him having the potential for an above-average offensive game as he matures. Vinicio is quick to the path of the ball and makes solid contact. Standing 5’11’’ and 160 pounds, he has the physical projection to add some muscle to his frame, which will enable him to develop some power as he rises up the ranks of the Red Sox organization. Despite projecting to get bigger as he matures, Vinicio has the makings of an above-average shortstop defensively and should stick at the position, already showing good range and a plus arm across the diamond. In signing him to a nearly-$2 million bonus, the Red Sox put a premium on his raw tools, and will begin working with Vinicio to shape him into an above-average all-around baseball player.

Development Needs: In a nutshell, Vinicio is in the infant stages of professional development and will spend the next couple of seasons mainly working on improving his fundamentals and developing an approach at the plate. Both needs share equal importance, with his approach being the foundation for him becoming a productive hitter down the line. He will slowly be exposed to professional pitching and will need to build pitch recognition to become comfortable with off-speed pitches. In the field, Vinicio will mainly focus on footwork, fronting balls, and reads at the shortstop position. His natural instincts should serve him well as he learns to read balls off the bat. As is the case with a lot of young players, Vinicio will have to work on bringing the game to him in the field and resisting the urge to rush plays, which lead to things like wild throws and pulling off groundballs too quickly.

2010 Outlook: Vinicio could begin as high as the Gulf Coast League in 2010. It remains to be seen where his skills currently are compared to the competition and whether the Red Sox are ready to bring him to the United States to play baseball this year. 2010 will be a big adjustment for him to get used to the rigors and demands of being a professional player. He will begin working on his fundamentals and will receive a lot of instruction during the season. Look for Vinicio to lend a clue as to where his approach is. It won’t be surprising for him to be more of a free-swinger and to need work on staying back on pitches when he sees his first game action. A relative mainstream scouting unknown within the baseball community, the Red Sox saw a lot in Vinicio’s potential and felt like they had a lot to work with in signing him. Realistically, Vinicio is five or six seasons away from entering the potential major league mix with the Red Sox, but 2010 will serve as an introduction to this high-ceiling talent, one for followers to bookmark once he makes his way to full-season baseball down the line.

SP.com Prospect Preview for Vinicio

After going 2-5 today with a 2B and a 3B, Vinicio is sporting a .391/.391/.565 line in 23 PA with 1K and 0 BB. Definitely someone to watch given the bonus, the push assignment to the GCL at age 16, the reports on his defense, and his quick early start demonstrating that he's likely not overmatched at this level.

[ELMER FLICK]

Vinicio has interesting splits:

OPS
(Total .679)
June .905
July .581
August .879

Bases Empty .567
Runners On .821
Scoring Pos .993

[Quintanariffic]

After a strong ST, Vinicio appears to have made the Greenville roster at age 19, skipping Lowell. This was somewhat unexpected coming off of two seasons in the GCL where he topped out at .291/.337/.419 last year. First-hand accounts indicate his defense will stick at SS and that he's able to generate impressive bat speed for someone his size. Deifnitely someone who should be on the radar of prospect watchers.

Here's the link to his 2012 prospect preview over on SP.com:

http://news.soxprosp...inicio-and.html

[Brianish]

I wonder how excited we'd be about this kid if Xander wasn't looming over him.

[JakeRae]

I've been excited about Vinicio for the past 2 years and have had him at the back end of my top 30 (or in honorable mention territory) both of those years. I could easily see him vaulting into top 20 status with a solid season in Greenville this year. He's got a long way to go and a lot of development ahead of him, so it's hard to rate him too highly, but he is on the right track right now. It'll be fun to watch how he performs in a full season league this year.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

Plus a posting to Greenville doesn't rule out a trip to Williamsport with the South Carolina travel team this summer!

[ForKeeps]

I wonder how excited we'd be about this kid if Xander wasn't looming over him.

Probably wouldn't make a difference. He's got an Iglesias type ceiling with about 1/10 as much of a chance of reaching it.

[Detts]

Nice to see this post.

I'm giddy about seeing Cecchini/Swihart/Barnes/Younginer(local kid)...and will miss Xander (Brentz was my top 'wow' last year until Xander was promoted)...but Vinicio (along with Owens) are really intriguing additions to this team. It is going to be another really fun season down here in Greenville.

[SumnerH]

Probably wouldn't make a difference. He's got an Iglesias type ceiling with about 1/10 as much of a chance of reaching it.

That's a weird comparison--at age 17 last year Vinicio was already far more advanced than Iglesias at the plate. Iglesias obviously gets a ton of hype because he's got one stellar flashy tool, but he needs to put together a few other things to have a shot at a real major league career. Vinicio's a very different kind of player, he could quite easily be good enough at a lot of things to have a career as a utility guy without ever being great at a single one.

Obviously by dint of surviving to the AA/AAA level Iglesias is a lot more likely to reach his ceiling--or at least a credible major league level--but aside from that I'm not sure what the comparison brings, and what their ceilings look like as players seem qualitatively very different to me.

[Buzzkill Pauley]

That's a weird comparison--at age 17 last year Vinicio was already far more advanced than Iglesias at the plate. Iglesias obviously gets a ton of hype because he's got one stellar flashy tool, but he needs to put together a few other things to have a shot at a real major league career. Vinicio's a very different kind of player, he could quite easily be good enough at a lot of things to have a career as a utility guy without ever being great at a single one.

Obviously by dint of surviving to the AA/AAA level Iglesias is a lot more likely to reach his ceiling--or at least a credible major league level--but aside from that I'm not sure what the comparison brings, and what their ceilings look like as players seem qualitatively very different to me.

To be fair, Iglesias could likely put up more comparable offensive numbers if he played in a more age-appropriate level -- say spending 2011 in Salem rather than Pawtucket.

If the Sox continue their aggressive promotion of Vinicio, though, we should see the offensive talent gap either narrow or widen.

[ForKeeps]

Vinicio's a very different kind of player

Seriously? If those two are "very different", I'd love to hear how you rate the difference between Vinicio and Bogaerts, which is the context of what I was responding to.

As far as the actual meat of what I said, how is it wrong? 1. Clearly Vinicio could at best end up being equally rated defensively and 2. What is Vinicio's offensive upside in your opinion? Unless you think he can become the Ichiro of SS, I don't see how he is much different than Iglesias in this regard either

Edited by ForKeeps, 04 April 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Brianish]

Seriously? If those two are "very different", I'd love to hear how you rate the difference between Vinicio and Bogaerts, which is the context of what I was responding to.

What I said was the one overshadows the other, since they've played at roughly the same development levels. My question dealt solely with how much attention they get. You explcitly stated Vinicio and Iglesias were a similar type of player. Don't deputize me into your argument.

Edited by Brianish, 04 April 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[JakeRae]

Seriously? If those two are "very different", I'd love to hear how you rate the difference between Vinicio and Bogaerts, which is the context of what I was responding to.

As far as the actual meat of what I said, how is it wrong? 1. Clearly Vinicio could at best end up being equally rated defensively and 2. What is Vinicio's offensive upside in your opinion? Unless you think he can become the Ichiro of SS, I don't see how he is much different than Iglesias in this regard either

Vinicio is a much more balanced player than Iglesias. If Vinicio makes it, it will be as a guy who is average to above average in a lot of facets of the game rather than a player who is a generational defensive talent who struggles offensively.

If Iglesias sorts out his offense and can be average or better at the plate, there is virtually no chance of Vinicio having the sort of MLB career Iglesias will have. But, Vinicio definitely has the talent level to be a quality MLB starter if everything works out for him.

Defensively, they are very different players. (I have yet to see Vinicio play so comments on his defense are based on scouting reports.) Iglesias has phenomenal instincts and a great throwing arm that lead to exceptional range. He also has incredible hands. His speed is average for the position. Vinicio has plus speed, a solid arm, solid instincts, and good hands. Overall, his tools still lead to very good range due to his good instincts and great speed but he is still error prone and neither his instincts nor his arm are anywhere near Iglesias' level.

Vinicio also has more offensive upside than Iglesias right now, largely due to age. He's been playing stateside since 16 and put up a very impressive overall performance at 17 in the GCL. Due to his age and rawness, there is a significantly better chance he can refine his offensive approach and develop average or better plate discipline and the ability to walk. He has shown pretty solid power for a age-advanced shortstop so far and showed solid improvements last year in his ability to hit for average and his ability to hit for power (ISO understates the power increase since he hit more triples in 2010 than 2011). He also is a better base stealer than Iglesias. Iglesias is a true hacker. He doesn't walk much and doesn't strike out much. Neither of those is likely to change even if he improves his contact rate. He also had less power at 21 than Vinicio showed at 17. Also, Vinicio is a switch hitter.

They aren't orders of magnitude apart as players, like Bogaerts and Iglesias are. Iglesias is still a far superior prospect both due to his defensive ability and his proximity to the majors. But, Vinicio and Iglesias are not particularly good comps for each other.

[ForKeeps]

Well again, I wasn't really making a "comp", I said they have similar ceilings, which I don't think is dispelled by anything in your post. If you're purely talking about ceiling, the nuances of how each guy achieves his defensive performance isn't really relevant. And can we please stop comparing the statistics of a player in AAA with one in the GCL.


FWIW, Sox Prospects says this about Vinicio: "Minimal present power with below-average power potential". I mean look at his frame, even if he fills out he's never going to hit for power. Neither is Igleisas, but that was sort of my point.

Edited by ForKeeps, 05 April 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[JakeRae]

Well again, I wasn't really making a "comp", I said they have similar ceilings, which I don't think is dispelled by anything in your post. And can we please stop comparing the statistics of a player in AAA with one in the GCL.


FWIW, Sox Prospects says this about Vinicio: "Minimal present power with below-average power potential". I mean look at his frame, even if he fills out he's never going to hit for power. Neither is Igleisas, but that was sort of my point.

Iglesias has a higher ceiling than Vinicio. Iglesias' 80 defense easily puts his ceiling above that of Vinicio. I think minimal present power is a slight overstatement, but that scouting report in no way conflicts with what I described above. Minimal is more than none existent, and Iglesias has no present power and below-average power potential. Most SS have below average power, so that isn't really a problem. It's a rarity for a SS to even have average power.

[ForKeeps]

I'm not citing it as a flaw of Vinicio's, I'm saying neither guy is ever going to hit for significant power. On the one hand you split hairs by contrasting "minimal" with "non-existent" and in the next breath you say it doesn't matter because shortstops don't hit for power. The best-case scenario for both is an empty batting average, although Vinicio at least has a chance to develop some patience, though I don't know why you'd project it, he walked less than Iglesias last year (oops, broke my own rule).

[Perpetual Herb Score]

From Goldstein this past Wednesday:

The Red Sox affiliate at Low-A has earned more attention for pitchers such as Matt Barnes

and Henry Owens

—as well as other 2011 draft picks like catcher Blake Swihart

—but it's a shortstop hitting .233 that's catching scout's eyes. Just 18 years old, Dominican nativeJoseVinicio

hasn't done much in the scorebook, but the tools are all there. “After watching Jose Reyes

and Jose Iglesias

this spring, I think this guy has a bit of both in him,” said one talent evaluator. “He's small, and almost frail, but it's a live, wiry body. He has a clue at the plate, stays inside on balls and shows aggressiveness on the base paths and maturity on the field.” While also grading him as a 60+ runner, the scout believes that the numbers would catch up to the scouting reports in short order. “He has what it takes to close the tools-to-skills gap pretty quickly,” he said. “He's got a lot of things going his way.”

[Again2004]

It appears that that scout was right. This 18 years old kid is putting up impressive numbers in Greenville.

.288 .347 .423 .770

A true SS who can hit and run is really valuable.

If he keeps performing well he could end up top 100 at the end of the season.

[OttoC]

...

If he keeps performing well he could end up top 100 at the end of the season.

And the Red Sox could trade Iglesias.

[Quintanariffic]

And the Red Sox could trade Iglesias.

If the Red Sox traded Iglesias b/c Vinicio's performance in the SAL this year, they'd be unworthy of any of our support. That idea is just other-wordly stupid. I'm as big a fan of Vinicio as anyone (he's certainly has a better offensive ceiling than Iglesias despite the opinions of randoms in this thread), but you don't trade the guy who is likely to be your starting SS in 2013 so you can keep the seat warm for a guy who may never make it out of AA.