83 replies to this topic

[Redkluzu]

Just listening to NESN and hearing the report from today's game. More to follow. DL they're saying.


EDIT-- Tito coming up on NESN with more info

Edited by Redkluzu, 09 July 2010 - 11:23 PM.

[Seels]

...........and the list just keeps getting longer.

What a frustrating season. So who's the backup C now? Is anyone on the 40? Wagner?

[Snodgrass'Muff]

...........and the list just keeps getting longer.

What a frustrating season. So who's the backup C now? Is anyone on the 40? Wagner?

It really is getting kind of funny at this point. I mean, really? Starting left fielder, starting center fielder, back up outfielder, starting second baseman and starting catcher are all out (well, Cameron is as good as out), Drew is just getting over a tweaked hammy, Beckett is still out, Daisuke is just coming back from a forearm strain... it's a miracle we're not battling Toronto for 4th instead of TB and NY for the division right now. I really don't know what else to do but laugh.

I wonder if Chris Iannetta would be available? Colorado doesn't seem too interested in moving away from Olivo any time soon.

[MoGator71]

Wonder if they'll go outside the organization? I'd think so, broken thumb should be pretty long term. I think I read Kevin Cash was recently either DFA or released...

[Eric Van]

And both of the perfectly good MLB backup catchers on option at AAA are also on the DL. I'm guessing Theo finds someone better in AAA than Gustavo Molina. Edit: in fact, a legit starting C to share time 50-50 with 'Tek would be a very good idea.

In fact, every starting position player who has had to go on the DL this year has done so with a backup (or, in this case, backup's backup) already on the DL. It's like someone is preparing an illustration of the term "injury stack" for the next edition of Dickson's Baseball Dictionary.

(I'm not even going to talk about the timing of losing both Pedroia and Martinez with 5 games against the Rays coming up.)

Edited by Eric Van, 27 June 2010 - 06:25 PM.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Argh, this sucks. Pedroia and Martinez are arguably the most irreplaceable players on the roster. Wagner has pretty much fallen off the map; didn't hit at all in Pawtucket last year or this year. He's on the DL, and so is Dustry Brown. I guess Gustavo Molina finds his way to the 40-man and gets the call? He's played 2 games in the majors for the Mets; going 1-7.

Holy fuck. Very hard to have good major league ready depth at the middle infield and C; and the Sox don't.

[RedOctober3829]

If it's a hairline fracture, then he can probably still play but it runs the good chance of getting worse. 40 man options are Dusty Brown and Mark Wagner and are both on the DL. Federowicz isn't doing much better and he's at High A. Looks like they need to go get a catcher.

Wagner: .226/.295/.396 in 62 PA
Brown: .230/.326/.391 in 188 PA

Edited by RedOctober3829, 27 June 2010 - 06:27 PM.

[dcmissle]

This team is going to need every ounce of the ridiculous amount of fortitude it already has displayed.

[Rudy Pemberton]

On a side note, what's happened to the Red Sox offensive prospects? Doesn't seem like anyone is having a good year

[Sprowl]

If it's a hairline fracture, then he can probably still play but it runs the good chance of getting worse. 40 man options are Dusty Brown and Mark Wagner and are both on the DL. Federowicz isn't doing much better and he's at High A. Looks like they need to go get a catcher.

Playing with a left thumb fracture would be very debilitating for a catcher, since it gets hit by high-velocity pitches more than 100 times a game. No glove can absorb all the force.

Even the regulars who are still playing have taking a beating (Youk's elbow, Scutaro's neck, Drew's hamstring and Cameron's hernia). By the end of the season, Beltre may be the last man standing.

[Pearl Wilson]

Tito on Vic:

Got a couple foul tips on that thumb. Tomorrow off, we'll get him looked at. Gotta get the swelling out of there. It's not an automatic DL

[Redkluzu]

OK, now here comes Tito. Got hurt earlier on toe. X-ray shows a fracture on the thumb from a couple of foul tips later -- but they're going to try to get the swelling out of there and "IT'S NOT AN AUTOMATIC DL"

Victor says that he could not put his hand back in the glove and he has pain but with an off day, "we'll see what happens."

Edited by Redkluzu, 27 June 2010 - 06:34 PM.

[NomarRS05]

Is there a precedent for thumb fractures taking less than two weeks to heal? Sounds unrealistic to me that he doesn't go on the DL. This just sucks.

[Barbara]

Do we know why he got hit on the toe and the thumb got x-rayed? The swelling?

[Pearl Wilson]

Victor did some catching with a fractured thumb, so the fracture itself did not cause total disability. While the whole thing sucks, it seems like it could have been worse. The catching had to end when it swelled up so much that it was too painful to put the glove on.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Is there a precedent for thumb fractures taking less than two weeks to heal? Sounds unrealistic to me that he doesn't go on the DL. This just sucks.

Especially for a catcher on his glove hand. I can't imagine they're going to put him out there with a fractured thumb, allowing the injury to be pounded by pitches every night. Even if he can deal with the pain and slow recovery, it's probably going to make it really tough to swing the bat.

I'm guessing they'll play it off as best they can while shopping around, then pull the trigger on a DL stint as soon as they have someone to back up Tek.

[Max Power]

It's time to ask Craig Biggio to come out of retirement. He can fill in at second and catcher.

Victor said it's more the tip of the thumb, which is a little better than the alternative. I still can't imagine how he'd catch a whole game like that. You probably wouldn't even want him playing first and catching all the throws over there. He's not displacing Ortiz as DH, either, so there really isn't much choice but to DL him.

[Trautwein's Degree]

Last year, Brett Gardner fractured his thumb on July 27th. He returned to action for the Yankees on September 7th. This is from an ESPN article:

Following a 6-4 loss that ended New York's eight-game winning streak, Gardner told the team his thumb was sore. When the Yankees suggested X-rays, he thought they were unnecessary. But they revealed a fracture, and Gardner's thumb was placed in a cast Sunday.

The cast will stay on for two to three weeks, then Gardner will be re-evaluated.

"Best-case scenario I'll be back in 20-25 days," he said, "but it beats having to have surgery and miss the rest of the season."

Obviously Gardner doesn't catch but it shouldn't surprise anyone if Martinez is on the shelf for 6 weeks.

Edited by Trautwein's Degree, 27 June 2010 - 06:47 PM.

[jtn46]

Hopefully Beckett comes back in top form. It's clear if this team is going to win in the second half, it's the pitching that's going to have to carry them. Good thing they kept Varitek.

[mt8thsw9th]

Victor said it's more the tip of the thumb, which is a little better than the alternative.

I don't know, just the tip can be quite frustrating.

[Pumpsie]

This is just getting absurd.

Bobby Valentine was saying on ESPN that he doesn't understand why catchers don't use the inner thumb protection device to avoid these kinds of injuries. Seemed avoidable.

In any case, Theo is going to have to outside the organization and make a trade for a catcher who can platoon with Tek. There's no other reasonable play here, especially if VMart's going to be out for over a month or whatever.

[luckysox]

Hopefully Beckett comes back in top form. It's clear if this team is going to win in the second half, it's the pitching that's going to have to carry them.

This is for sure, and there have been plenty of teams that have stayed in races with pitching when the bats were cold/injured/never there to begin with. My concern is with the bullpen if we need to rely so heavily on pitching...BUT, a healthy and effective Beckett to go along with Lester, Buch, and Dice (and just imagine if Lackey decides to un-suck!!) will be what could keep this team from going all 2006 on us. Those 5 guys, even with lackey, give the team a damn good chance of winning 3 out of every 5 games, and that's .600 ball. IF this team can weather this storm with strong pitching and stay within 3 or 4 games of the WC until VMart, Pedey, and Ellsbury are back (assuming they are all back & healthy by the end of August), then they still have a fighting chance.


But this injury crap is insane.

[RedOctober3829]

UPDATE, 8:01 p.m.: Martinez has a fractured distal phalanx, which is the bone on the tip of his thumb. Martinez took two foul tips off his thumb. The first was when Pablo Sandoval was at bat in the second inning. The ball hit his thumb then hit him in the left big toe, the same toe that was hit by a foul ball back on May 24.

The second tip came when Andres Torres was at bat in the third inning. Martinez left the game after that inning. The ball bent his thumb back in the glove, causing the fracture.

He'll be examined tomorrow

"Dr. [Thomas] Gil has already seen the x-rays. It's not a given that he goes on the DL," Terry Francona said. "What bothered him today ... it was swollen, he was having trouble getting it in his glove. It's not a given that he'll go on the DL. It's not a given that he's going to be OK, either. We'll get him examined tomorrow and see where we go from there."

Martinez didn't think he would go on the DL.

"By the time I got to the dugout, it was starting to get [swollen]. I couldn't put my hand in the glove. It was kind of painful," he said.

It sounds like that if the swelling goes down, Martinez could catch. But the question then becomes how well he could hit.

Peter Abraham

[Eric Van]

This is just getting absurd.

Bobby Valentine was saying on ESPN that he doesn't understand why catchers don't use the inner thumb protection device to avoid these kinds of injuries. Seemed avoidable.

In any case, Theo is going to have to outside the organization and make a trade for a catcher who can platoon with Tek. There's no other reasonable play here, especially if VMart's going to be out for over a month or whatever.

Of the backup catchers on lousy teams, the guy having the best year is ... George Kottaras.

[fuzzy_one]

It really is almost laughable at this point, yet there they are 1.5 behind the MFY and actually a game ahead of the 120-game-winning Rays. All may not be lost, but, damn!

Here's hoping they actually do DL him if it is a hairline so he can be back in two weeks instead of play hurt for two weeks and then be out for six.

[Pumpsie]

Of the backup catchers on lousy teams, the guy having the best year is ... George Kottaras.

Just crazy isn't it?

[Hendu Candu]

Rangers might make the most sense for a deal. Saltalamacchia and Teagarden are down on the farm now. We could deal for one (or even Max Ramirez) to split time with Tek, then send him down when Victor's back. Then assuming Tek retires we have a replacement for next year.

[drtooth]

I'm not even going to talk about the timing of losing both Pedroia and Martinez with 5 games against the Rays coming up.

The only thing that may save the Sox in these games is that it appears the Rays may be imploding.

Is Luis Esposito a possible option? I know it is less than ideal to jump a young catcher up from AA, but the main role any backup is going to play is as a body if Tek get injured. At least he's hitting as of late (13 of his last 29, 2 HR, 7 RBI).

[Max Power]

Of the backup catchers on lousy teams, the guy having the best year is ... George Kottaras.

Predicting backup catcher performance is like predicting middle relievers. A crystal ball and Ouija board are just as useful as scouting reports and stat sheets. I'd trade for just about anyone who plays decent defense and hope you catch lightning in a bottle offensively for the month or so Victor's gone.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The main priority here has to be defense; anything you get offensively is gravy. The ideal guy is a veteran, IMO, as you don't really want to play Tek every day at this point. So, you'd love a guy that you can play without fear.

These guys look particularly expendable......

Brian Schneider
Henry Blanco
Humberto Quintero
Dioner Navarro
Rob Johnson
Gerald Laird
Wil Nieves

In AAA, you've got guys like

Corky Miller
Omir Santos
Chad Moeller
Ramon Castro
Kevin Cash
Michel Hernandez

Ugh. Didn't Chris Coste just get released? Where's Paul LoDuca these days?

Not a very pretty sight. Cash strikes me as the most realistic "solution" since Houston just outrighted him to AAA, he's surely available for next to nothing, and he was here 2 years ago.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 27 June 2010 - 08:53 PM.

[JakeRae]

Rangers might make the most sense for a deal. Saltalamacchia and Teagarden are down on the farm now. We could deal for one (or even Max Ramirez) to split time with Tek, then send him down when Victor's back. Then assuming Tek retires we have a replacement for next year.

Iannetta makes a ton of sense if they can get him for a semi-reasonable price. He can fill in for Martinez until he is healthy, can be sent to AAA until September, and can be the starting catcher next year. The Texas catchers are the same idea. I doubt a deal can be worked out for Iannetta without paying through the roof though. Amazing that the two least replaceable players in the roster have gotten hurt in one weekend.

[DaveRoberts'Shoes]

It sounds like he has what's called a "tuft fracture", a fracture involving just the tip of the finger. His return after this is really going to be determined by his pain threshold - he's not going to make himself worse by going back out there. I'd estimate that they make him some sort of splint for the inside of his glove - the rate-limiting factor is going to be when he can swing the bat normally. Not great news, but not the worst ever.

[SMU_Sox]

Where's Paul LoDuca these days?

He was released by the Rockies in May and according to his interviews on MLB radio he is trying to get another gig. Although in 2008, his last season in the majors his OPS+ was 64. Supposedly he is in playing shape. But I don't think he could hit pitchers who are in their mid-season form right now.

[Yaz4Ever]

I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago, when he was demoted for the new "catcher of the future" in Cleveland, but what about Lou Marson? He was a pretty coveted prospect a couple of years ago and, although he didn't do much with the bat, seemed like a pretty capable backstop earlier this season.

[barbed wire Bob]

Is Luis Esposito a possible option? I know it is less than ideal to jump a young catcher up from AA, but the main role any backup is going to play is as a body if Tek get injured. At least he's hitting as of late (13 of his last 29, 2 HR, 7 RBI).

I would think it would be unlikely that they would bring Exposito up because I don't think he is ready and it would start the arbitration clock. More likely they will try to find a free agent catcher to fill the hole. Also, it's only 11 games until the all-star break and Vmart should be coming off the DL around that time, so maybe they can survive with Tek and Molina.

[ElcaballitoMVP]

Is there an extra Molina brother laying around anywhere that we could pick up?

[bosockboy]

Is there an extra Molina brother laying around anywhere that we could pick up?

Actually, yes. Jose should be available the way Buck is hitting in Toronto.

[bosockboy]

Ryan Doumit has an 852 OPS against righties; which seems like a fine pairing for Tek's abilities against lefties. Also can play backup 1B/LF when VMart returns. What pries him out of Pittsburgh?

[Mystic Merlin]

He's under contract through next year, with options for '12-'13.

Terms:

'10: $3.55M
'11: $5.1M
'12: $7.25M (TO)
'13: $8.25M (TO - 500K buyout)

Seeing as he's pretty valuable and cost-efficient to Pittsburgh, I cannot see Huntington shopping him for a mediocre package. I don't see the Sox ponying up a lot for a temporary replacement; they wouldn't have anywhere to put him after Martinez returned, even though you could let Tek or V-Mart go next year.

EDIT - I suppose you could argue he's a bit overpriced for '11, but it's short money.

Edited by Mystic Merlin, 27 June 2010 - 10:31 PM.

[bosockboy]

He's under contract through next year, with options for '12-'13.

Terms:

'10: $3.55M
'11: $5.1M
'12: $7.25M (TO)
'13: $8.25M (TO - 500K buyout)

Seeing as he's pretty valuable and cost-efficient to Pittsburgh, I cannot see Huntington shopping him for a mediocre package. I don't see the Sox ponying up a lot for a temporary replacement; they wouldn't have anywhere to put him after Martinez returned, even though you could let Tek or V-Mart go next year.

EDIT - I suppose you could argue he's a bit overpriced for '11, but it's short money.

Huntington did move McLouth in a very similar situation though.

[HriniakPosterChild]

Victor says: Only a Flesh Wound!

“I don’t think I will have to be on the disabled list, all it is is pain,” said Martinez. “We’ll see how it feels tomorrow. Good thing we’re having an off day tomorrow. I’m going to have it checked out again and see what happens.”

I hope my kid never tells me he wants to be a catcher.

[Quintanariffic]

Huntington did move McLouth in a very similar situation though.

True, but he only moved McLouth when he thought he had a better replacement ready in McCutheon. Tony Sanchez is the future at C in Pittsburgh and he's still in Hi-A. Given the relatively short money committed to Doumit and the typical development progression for catchers, I don't see him getting moved until next year's trading deadline at the earliest.

[Pumpsie]

Well, if VMart is to be believed, it's just a "flesh wound," and we won't have to find a replacement, even for a day. Hope he's right.

[Eric Van]

Guessing on the roster moves for Tuesday:

Patterson added to 25 and 40-man rosters (maxing out the 40)
Sanchez and Castro optioned
AAA catcher purchased from somewhere (even if VMart is only out a few days)
Wagner moved to 60-day DL retroactively

Lowell on the DL gives them the flexibility to carry three catchers as long as VMart is out. In fact, they can also use that roster spot for an eighth reliever, fifth outfielder, or second backup INF as the need arises.

Now, eventually Wagner and Lowrie will come off the 60-day DL. The AAA catcher will be DFA'd, so that means one more move off of the 40-man (or two if Ibarra actually did sign an MLB contract that isn't being counted against the roster until he gets his visa). Castro is the most obvious guy to go so it's quite possible that they'll just DFA him now and not bother with moving Wagner to the 60-day. If someone else needs to go, it would probably be Hulett.

[joe dokes]

and with two offdays this week, another next Thursday and then the ASB, the dreaded "whose gonna catch Wake" scenario can probably be avoided altogether. (catching Wake being a slight point in Cash's favor, as is his otherwise insanely good catch/throwing)

[Eric Van]

and with two offdays this week, another next Thursday and then the ASB, the dreaded "whose gonna catch Wake" scenario can probably be avoided altogether. (catching Wake being a slight point in Cash's favor, as is his otherwise insanely good catch/throwing)

They do have a stretch of six straight games, which means Wake has to start once, probably July 3. So if Victor is going to be out for just a week or so, then the ability of the third C to catch Wakefield may become a factor.

In the meantime, this lineup is really pretty damn good good for a team that has lost its ST 1, 2, and 3 hitters:

Scutaro
Nava
Ortiz
Youkilis
Drew
Beltre
Cameron / McDonald
Varitek / X
Patterson / Hall

[rglenmt]

For a limited period, if Red Sox have to put VMart on DL, Gustavo Molina who is at Pawtucket is capable of sharing C duties with Vtek. Also, Dusty Brown is the best defensive catcher in the entire organization, so if Dusty comes off the DL while the Sox still need a defensive catcher, the Sox should be OK. The real issue is the offensive issue. Next to Mauer, and Posada who is really not much anymore than a DH, VMart is the best hitting ML catcher. It is certain the FO is not going to make a move for someone like Salty is not a good catcher at all, Teeguarden who is not a good hitter or someone else who is not the short or longterm solution. Unforntunately, the doctors will make a lot of these decisions.

[Al Zarilla]

Victor says: Only a Flesh Wound!

I hope my kid never tells me he wants to be a catcher.

Easiest path to the majors though. I don't think there are any statistics sites to back up this claim, but not many kids want to put on the catcher's gear and squat for half the game.

[Redkluzu]

This might not be the best scenario in terms of VMart's overall health but here's Abraham on the subject this morning:

It sounds bad when you hear he has a broken thumb. But he actually has a fractured bone at the tip of his left thumb on his glove hand. It sounds like he may not need the DL, depending on how the swelling reacts. In theory, V-Mart could tape it up and keep playing. Of course that will depend on how well he can swing the bat.

[Snodgrass'Muff]

This might not be the best scenario in terms of VMart's overall health but here's Abraham on the subject this morning:

The question isn't just "how well can he swing a bat?" though. It's "how well can he swing a bat while 90+ mph pitches are slamming into his hand all game?" Getting in the cage and being able to tough it out isn't the same thing as playing a game, catching and then swinging a bat and toughing it out. I'm sure the Sox will take that into account, though.