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Round of 16: England vs Germany


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#201 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:54 AM

If Germany had scored on set plays or on organized play, then yes. But England don't open up that much if the score is 2-2.

Germany is a better team and they played better throughout the tourney. But the score goes to 2-2, it's a different game.

#202 God's Cop


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Nick Kaufman @ Jun 27 2010, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Germany had scored on set plays or on organized play, then yes. But England don't open up that much if the score is 2-2.

Germany is a better team and they played better throughout the tourney. But the score goes to 2-2, it's a different game.


Absolutely different game if its 2-2.

#203 Maalox


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Dummy Hoy @ Jun 27 2010, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was bad, but I'm really not sure that makes a difference today.

I guess the argument is that if England gets that goal, they go back into trench mode and maybe hold off the Krauts until they get a clear scoring chance, or take their chance with shots.

I don't buy it. That call evens the score but doesn't fix England's fundamental inferiority. The Germans were faster, crisper in their passes. It appears the English cannot play offense without sacrificing defense and vice-versa. The Germans didn't have that problem, and eventually this disparity would have told somehow.

That call ate ass, but the better team won.

#204 Maalox


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:57 AM

On Univision, Fernando Fiore sings "I can't get no satisfaction" in English. Hilarious.

#205 cjdmadcow

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (Nick Kaufman @ Jun 27 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Germany had scored on set plays or on organized play, then yes. But England don't open up that much if the score is 2-2.

Germany is a better team and they played better throughout the tourney. But the score goes to 2-2, it's a different game.


Agreed.

Imagine the German's mental state at that point, having conceded two goals in 54 seconds. It's a different game altogether.

Better team still won, though.

#206 RedSoxandBlueStripes

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:59 AM

Sadly, they're more likely to get rid of Capello and keep the preening twats. Although, Capello is blaming the ref, which is a bad sign. Germany were good on the counter, we were dogshit. End of story.

#207 Apisith

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:59 AM

I think the phantom goal makes a hell of a difference. Even though Germany played well today, the second half starts 2-2 if the goal's counted and England would never have had to push up so many players to press for the goal, which would have meant more players staying back to defend counter-attacks and thus probably not losing two goals in the way they did. The two counter-attacking goals that the Germans scored was a direct consequence of the goal not being counted. I would have backed the Germans to win it at 2-2, but they wouldn't have scored in the manner that they did if the score was 2-2.

#208 Nick Kaufman


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:02 AM



#209 RedSoxandBlueStripes

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:04 AM

I really don't. You can't defend that badly and hope to beat anyone. Lineker and Shearer killing England on bbc.

#210 Nuf Ced


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:05 AM

Bigger tabloid scandal in the UK tomorrow: Landycakes knocking up a groupie there or the failure of the overrated English team today?



#211 RedSoxandBlueStripes

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:05 AM

I really don't. You can't defend that badly and hope to beat anyone. Lineker and Shearer killing England on bbc.

#212 Tony C


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Spacemans Bong @ Jun 27 2010, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Truly abject stuff from england. Fortunately this shitshow will wipe off moans about the goal and focus england's attention on the preening chavs who represent them. Capello should get rid of all of them.


amen.



#213 sleepyjose03

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:11 AM

QUOTE (Nick Kaufman @ Jun 27 2010, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Germany had scored on set plays or on organized play, then yes. But England don't open up that much if the score is 2-2.

Germany is a better team and they played better throughout the tourney, but the score goes to 2-2 and it's a different game- certainly doesn't end up 4-1.

Well - it would be pretty hard to go from 2-2 to 4-1 no matter what.

And it looks like ESPN is finally saying what I have been all along - as a former ref I said right away that England got screwed because that ball was shot from so far out. The linesman was where he should have been - even with the last defender watching for offsides. And from that angle - if a ball hits the crossbar, bounces down, and back up to hit the crossbar there's no way that it would look like it had completely crossed the line. What's such an obvious call from a goal line view is pretty suspect from anywhere else on the field.

Not justifying the non-call, just explaining it. I agree they should use replay for calls like this.

#214 RedOctober3829


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:12 AM

Klinsman and the English guy on ESPN are killing FIFA and England equally. Which is probably the right thing since that goal would have totally changed the game.

#215 Morgan's Magic Snowplow


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE (sleepyjose03 @ Jun 27 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well - it would be pretty hard to go from 2-2 to 4-1 no matter what.

And it looks like ESPN is finally saying what I have been all along - as a former ref I said right away that England got screwed because that ball was shot from so far out. The linesman was where he should have been - even with the last defender watching for offsides. And from that angle - if a ball hits the crossbar, bounces down, and back up to hit the crossbar there's no way that it would look like it had completely crossed the line. What's such an obvious call from a goal line view is pretty suspect from anywhere else on the field.

Not justifying the non-call, just explaining it. I agree they should use replay for calls like this.


I would agree if the ball was close to the goal line, but it was 2-3 feet into the goal. That's not a difficult call for a linesman standing fifteen yards up the line, and it's inexcusable that he missed the call. I'm not sure I've ever seen a ball that deep into the goal not called a goal in a match at this level.

#216 RedSoxandBlueStripes

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:41 AM

It happened to Romania in, i think, the 2004 euros. That one if memory serves was even worse.

#217 Vinho Tinto

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE (RedSoxandBlueStripes @ Jun 27 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It happened to Romania in, i think, the 2004 euros. That one if memory serves was even worse.


I'm sure URI remembers this one


Edited by Vinho Tinto, 27 June 2010 - 11:53 AM.


#218 ifmanis5


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:31 PM

QUOTE (ifmanis5 @ Jun 25 2010, 10:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Paul The German Octupus says Germany wins. Nuff said.

The moral of today is clearly never doubt Paul The German Octopus.

#219 URI


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE (Vinho Tinto @ Jun 27 2010, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm sure URI remembers this one



Well we haven't beaten United since 1821, so I dunno why I would remember that.

It was also the only useful thing Pedro Mendes did for Spurs and it didn't count.

#220 Bellhorn


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Apisith @ Jun 27 2010, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would have backed the Germans to win it at 2-2, but they wouldn't have scored in the manner that they did if the score was 2-2.

Exactly right. I have no complaints about the result - Germany were the better team on the day, and England really need a complete overhaul to become a realistic threat to go all the way. But 4-1 isn't really representative of the disparity between the teams.

#221 RedOctober3829


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 02:40 PM

What a rocket shot from outside the box.

#222 Bellhorn


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (RedSoxandBlueStripes @ Jun 27 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It happened to Romania in, i think, the 2004 euros. That one if memory serves was even worse.

For me, the classic example is still Chesterfield vs. Middlesbrough in the FA Cup semifinal back whenever that was, I guess 1997. David Elleray, the referee on the day, acknowledged in his autobiography that this incident was sufficient to convince him of the necessity of goal-line replay.

#223 snowmanny

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 03:43 PM

Forgive me if I am displaying some massive naivete here, but given the huge amount of grief that the French received for not calling a handball on themselves in the Ireland match, am I safe in assuming that Germany will receive the same due criticism? It seems to me that there were plenty of German players who had to KNOW that was a goal.

If not, I would be curious as to why one act is unsportsmanlike and one act is fine.

Edited by snowmanny, 27 June 2010 - 03:43 PM.


#224 filthywater49

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE (snowmanny @ Jun 27 2010, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Forgive me if I am displaying some massive naivete here, but given the huge amount of grief that the French received for not calling a handball on themselves in the Ireland match, am I safe in assuming that Germany will receive the same due criticism? It seems to me that there were plenty of German players who had to KNOW that was a goal.

If not, I would be curious as to why one act is unsportsmanlike and one act is fine.



The first reason that this won't be looked upon as bad sportsmanship by the Germans is that they didn't DO anything like commit a foul, which stands in contrast to what Henry to Ireland, when he knowingly and purposely violated the rules.

Second, it's tough to tell who actually knew and who didn't, and if you aren't ABSOLUTELY 100% CERTAIN, you'd look like a fucking idiot if you said something to the ref and ended up being wrong. That said, it would never get to this point in the first place, because no one would ever say anything.

Essentially, in this case, Germany got a lucky break and went with it. They didn't break any rules. That's why it's not the same.

#225 snowmanny

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 04:06 PM

Filthywater: OK. I guess I was thinking of the occasional instances in tennis when a player has overturned a call that initially went in his favor, but I see your points.

#226 Nuf Ced


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 06:48 PM

Glad to see they are taking it well in Great Britain:




#227 URI


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:28 PM

They are in Roo-ins.

#228 ossie schreckengost

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:43 PM

what can i say?

thereīs never been a german nationalmannschaft i loved so dearly like these guys, today.

this is our schwarz-rot-gold-version of franceīs black-blanc-beur-guys from back in ī98. on the field as well as off the field.

we wonīt win the tournament, but - for godīs sake - we will give it a try.

.........

thereīs not a single footballing nation in the world i respect as much as the english. when we play each other, itīs never boring, itīs always great football, and - i donīt know how - thereīs always controversy.
not today.
there was no controversy, today, in the goal that was annihilated. when there ever was a goal, this was the one. the game would have been a different one, maybe.
we still would have won; but that was pathetic refereeing&linesmanship.

but, in the end, we were the better team, today.

....

now we are the lamb set up for the butcher called "argentina".

but, as much as i love The Diego: we will give our very best, to spoil the party. this time not by "being german". but by outplaying, outwitting, outorgasming those hallowed footballers from south america. because we can. right here, right now. bunte republik deutschland, thatīs what we are.

and, just for shits&giggles, once again those great folks back from ī74:















#229 TheYellowDart5


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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Nuf Ced @ Jun 27 2010, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Glad to see they are taking it well in Great Britain:


It must be fun recycling that same cover every four years, just with a different team photo.

Every two years if you count Euro.

#230 nickandemmasuncle

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (snowmanny @ Jun 27 2010, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Forgive me if I am displaying some massive naivete here, but given the huge amount of grief that the French received for not calling a handball on themselves in the Ireland match, am I safe in assuming that Germany will receive the same due criticism? It seems to me that there were plenty of German players who had to KNOW that was a goal.

If not, I would be curious as to why one act is unsportsmanlike and one act is fine.


http://g.sports.yaho...eepr062710.html

Your point is a good one. But the Germans are made of Teflon as far as their perception in international soccer, and so they'll skate on this one. Just like they've skated on so much other stuff.

#231 ossie schreckengost

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Drocca @ Jun 27 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm watching on the Spanish channel and they just showed a replay of the non-goal 44 years ago. Strikingly similar. God, apparently, is not stupid. She has a sense of humor.


except that today there was nothing in common with wembley.

in wembley the ref as well as the linesman had a shadow of a doubt, and human frailty working for them (they fucked it up).

whereas today most of our planetīs population KNEW the ball was in, as soon as he was, äh, in. behind the goal-line. "in", as the laws of the game define a ball to be "in" - as a whole. diameterwise.
and today that ball was "in" not once, or twice, it was 3 times "in", diameterwise, and then some. but the ref as well as his slaves on the sidelines fucked it all up.

i hate that shit.

but it had nothing to do with ī66.

ī66 was an honest mistake, it will forever be a point of contention between me, and mark, for example.

today was a clear cut goal and a travesty.


#232 ElUno20

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:59 PM

I don't know if it's possible but Wayne Rooney deserves even more shit than he's already going to get. His "performance" was atrocious. Where was the pressure on the ball? And when he saw there was an obvious problem in midfield being able to get him the ball, did he drop back a little further to receive the ball and make runs from midfield likes he done for ManU when they're struggling? Hell no.

He was just resigned to let shit go down the toilet. F you Wayne Rooney.

Edited by ElUno20, 27 June 2010 - 10:00 PM.


#233 EP Sox Fan

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 12:15 AM

QUOTE (ElUno20 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know if it's possible but Wayne Rooney deserves even more shit than he's already going to get. His "performance" was atrocious. Where was the pressure on the ball? And when he saw there was an obvious problem in midfield being able to get him the ball, did he drop back a little further to receive the ball and make runs from midfield likes he done for ManU when they're struggling? Hell no.

He was just resigned to let shit go down the toilet. F you Wayne Rooney.


IMO, I don't think Rooney was the problem. The English simply had no cohesiveness on the field. In fact, it was an excellent contrast to a German side that was well organized and had no problem playing together as a unit. Watching England play, I was struck by how little chemistry existed among the players. It really seemed like 11 different guys who just happened to have the same uniform. I thought Rooney was hampered by the lack of any coherent build-up in the attack. He was consistently dropping back to get the ball, essentially playing the role of an attacking midfielder. When you're playing facilitator, it's awfully hard to score goals. England is missing a playmaker in midfield ala Wesley Sneijder. And competent goal keeping. Oh, and some competent wingers. And maybe another striker. Come to think of it, maybe their team is just massively overrated.



#234 LondonSox


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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:08 AM

Pathetic display all round, I mean the goal probably changes the game and the two goals were on counterpattacks that probably are not anything like the same at 2-2 (I mean England had 9 men in and around the box on the 3-1 goal).
Still the fact they could ahve got to 2-2 was a bit of a joke, that was the worst defensive performance I've ever seen for a major international team.

On the second goal Upson was on the left touchline, and Terry was 10 yards in field, Cole was out of position and that left one (not v ery good) player covering over 2/3s of the width of the pitch, when Terry is beaten it's a joke how eay that is.
The first German goal was pathetic (I do think it's a very odd rule you can't be offside from a goalkick, I didn't know that until this weekend, why doesn't every striker stand way upfield to spread out the defending team).

Bottom line England were a joke, Gerrard went into hero mode, where he tries to do it all himself, Lampard went into whinny mode where he appeals for free kicks instead of chasing back. We played two seemingly unfit players (Barry and Rooney) perhaps a third (Milner) and played multiple players out of position, Gerard on the left the main one.

The move to rescue the game was defoe for HEskey??? You need to score quick call on Heskey....

#235 ifmanis5


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Posted 28 June 2010 - 07:50 AM

Capello speaking now at a group press conference. Says he wants to stay on as coach but won't know for at least 2 weeks. Says if he does stay on that many changes have to be made and that the team needs to get younger. Made excuses for Rooney about him being too tired coming into the WC... Capello later asked if he deserved his salary and whether the 4-4-2 is outdated. He didn't really have a lot of answers for that and the briefing was cut short. Yikes.

Edited by ifmanis5, 28 June 2010 - 07:59 AM.


#236 Smiling Joe Hesketh


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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:00 AM

QUOTE (EP Sox Fan @ Jun 28 2010, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
IMO, I don't think Rooney was the problem. The English simply had no cohesiveness on the field. In fact, it was an excellent contrast to a German side that was well organized and had no problem playing together as a unit. Watching England play, I was struck by how little chemistry existed among the players. It really seemed like 11 different guys who just happened to have the same uniform. I thought Rooney was hampered by the lack of any coherent build-up in the attack. He was consistently dropping back to get the ball, essentially playing the role of an attacking midfielder. When you're playing facilitator, it's awfully hard to score goals. England is missing a playmaker in midfield ala Wesley Sneijder. And competent goal keeping. Oh, and some competent wingers. And maybe another striker. Come to think of it, maybe their team is just massively overrated.

Exceptionally well said. What was their offensive strategy? Kick a cross into the box, time and time and time again. Germany got to most of those first. They had no other options for attack. It was stultifying.

Yes, if Lampard's goal had been correctly ruled then the game may well turn out differently. But England were exposed yesterday. James was awful in goal (as awful as Green's howler was against the US, he played better in the second half of that match than James did yesterday), the defense was atrocious (McNanaman called it "schoolboy defense") and the offense lacked any creativity. There's something about these guys when they play together; Barry's a good player but was invisible yesterday. Rooney's been discussed to death. Lampard and Gerrard not working well together, etc.

Maybe they're just not that good.

#237 Spacemans Bong


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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:10 AM

4-4-2 is outdated. The 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3's now in vogue really challenge 4-4-2. It's about space and numbers. Four banks challenge three banks - yesterday you had Klose taking up defenders while Ozil ran riot and England just couldn't cope with it. Numbers: you've got two center-halves marking Klose, Ozil and Muller. 3 vs. 2. A center-half can't mark two players. If he's got one and that one is better than him then there will be trouble, but Ozil and Muller on Matthew Upson or John Terry? Oof. With Glen Johnson being a poor defender and Ashley Cole tending to stick out on the left Podolski and Muller cutting inside just killed England.

I'm convinced that's why three at the back is coming back in vogue. You've got enough bodies in the middle to cover the space, and with two wing backs you've got flexibility coming up the pitch but still have enough dropping back to protect the flanks should the other team adapt and start sending players out wide to stretch out the CHs.

#238 Philip Jeff Frye


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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE (Smiling Joe Hesketh @ Jun 28 2010, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe they're just not that good.

This is the bottom line. While their stars didn't step up to the plate, they simply lack talent at a number of positions. What other "contender" relies on players like Emile Heskey, David James & Glenn Johnson as top contributors? The Argentines can barely find playing time for Diego Milito, Brazil left home Alex who would start in central defense for England and Pato who would start at forward. Fabregas can't even start for Spain, for God's sake!

The injuries also played a role, but when is that even not the case with an England team heading into the World Cup? Germany, for example, seems to have survived the loss of Ballack and their top two goal keepers before the tournament without much trouble.

The really scary part is that most of these guys are also at the ends of their international careers. What is the 2014 team going to look like? England are probably better off making a break of the failed "Golden Generation" but unless somebody like Wolcott or Rodwell take big steps forward over the next four years, there's very little to get excited about right now.