96 replies to this topic

[SeanBerry]

Are the Boston Red Sox becoming less popular then Menudo?

It seems like the Olde Towne Team are just not that important in the New England area anymore. As of a couple of weeks ago, Red Sox games on NESN were down 26% from the year before. Season ticket holders have said on multiple occasions it looks like it used to when Bill Clinton was president in the stands on cold weather games. A chilly/rainy weekday bring far more empty seats, rows and even sections then we have seen in years.

Then the All-Star voting result got announced last week and it was jarring. Not one Red Sox position player is even close to winning and we likely won't have a single player in the starting lineup. Not only that but the immortal Julio Borbon of the Texas Rangers has more All-Star vots then EVERY Red Sox outfielder. WTF?

Now, there may be multiple reasons for this. The team got off to a horrid April and still sits in 3rd place. The Bruins and Celtics each went deep into the playoffs and the Celtics rightfully are the talk of the town.

But I see chinks the Red Sox armor unlike anything we have seen since pre-sellout streak and there is no Manny, Pedro or Nomar on this team for fans to go apeshit about. I don't see local kids putting on fake chins and making retarded faces in attempts to be John Lackey.

Is this a major problem? If the money (especially the NESN moolah) starts to dry up, will we see less money spent on the payroll? Is the idea of having a more modest payroll attractive? Is the idea of getting easier seats to games a plus?

[glennhoffmania]

Now, there may be multiple reasons for this. The team got off to a horrid April and still sits in 3rd place. The Bruins and Celtics each went deep into the playoffs and the Celtics rightfully are the talk of the town.

How about the economy? Last season, the recession was just getting into full swing. Since then, more and more people lost their jobs, or at least their financial stress levels increased as the recovery has been very slow. I've noticed that good tickets for good games just aren't selling like they used to on Stub Hub. Fewer people are willing to pay a few hundred bucks to go to a game now.

The other reasons you mentioned probably have a lot to do with it as well. But I don't think we should discount the economy.

[Rudy Pemberton]

The Celtics and Bruins are huge factors in ratings declines; playoff games are going to cannibalize the regular season baseball audience. You also need a larger sample of games before you make too many conclusions since matchups and all that are not equal from April-may one year to the next. Red Sox TV ratings are still among the highest in the game. Attendance is still incredibly good, too, obviously. The talk about the lack of personalities seems silly to me, frankly.....Ortiz, Youkils, Pedroia, etc. are all pretty popular players. The biggest factor is one you don't really mention though- the economy; it's effecting all teams so you'd have to look at the Sox relative to their competition, and things stil look good. The All-Star voting stuff, real, real early to make any conclusions there. So, I think there are some reasons to think that the glory days may be past in terms of the unprecedented revenue growth, etc. but it's way too premature to suggest that no one cares, that revenues are going to be way down and that the team will drop payroll.

[Lose Remerswaal]

Ratings were 26% better last year than this year?

Without Manny, Pedro, and Nomar?

I agree with the previous caller, I think it's a combination of the economy being shitty for so long when tickets went on sale for 2010, as opposed to for 2009 when it was still "new" to us.

And the success of the Celtics, like SB originally surmised.

Let's see what happens after basketball season is over.

[TheoShmeo]

How about the economy? Last season, the recession was just getting into full swing. Since then, more and more people lost their jobs, or at least their financial stress levels increased as the recovery has been very slow. I've noticed that good tickets for good games just aren't selling like they used to on Stub Hub. Fewer people are willing to pay a few hundred bucks to go to a game now.

The other reasons you mentioned probably have a lot to do with it as well. But I don't think we should discount the economy.

I agree that the economy is a huge factor.

The Stub Hub price decline -- which is a pretty good indicator, I think -- has been going on for a while. My share in the EMC seats I sometimes sell here has decreased substantially, but in 2008 I had half of the home games and by the middle of that season, tix were very hard to move (both here at face and on Stub Hub at above, near and often below face).

And as a buyer of tix on Stub Hub, ticket prices all over the place have gone down and it's almost always the case that there's a big sell off as games draw nearer. Lakers-Celtics Game 1 tix took a big dive yesterday afternoon, for example.

[SoxFanSince57]

I blame it on Tim Bogar and ticket prices.

[ragecage]

I think the economy is part of it, but there seems to be a general malaise even for a lot of people that have tickets. I'm constantly struck this year by how many empty seats there in the first inning of games this year, or how empty the bleachers are towards the end of a lot of games. These are people that already had tickets. I went to a concert at the House Of Blues the other night (while the Sox were playing), and I was dreading trying to meet up with people before the game. I'm used to it being hectic and hard to move. We walked right into the restaurant and got a seat. I watched loads and loads of people that were going to the game casually make there way over in the 2nd inning. Now, I know that there are always late-comers to games, but this just feels different. There is a sense of urgency that's missing. I think SB is right when he says it has to do with the lack of Manny/Perdro/Nomar, etc. A lot of people didn't want to miss anything those guys did. They wanted to be in the park early to watch them warm-up and have fun. They wanted to stay in their seats in the 9th inning of a blow-out game to watch Manny's last AB. There are a lot of popular players on this team, but I don't think they connect with the wider Sox audience the same way they have in years past. I don't even think it's close.

[Rudy Pemberton]

There is a sense of urgency that's missing. I think SB is right when he says it has to do with the lack of Manny/Perdro/Nomar, etc.

That really doesn't make a lot of sense, though. Nomar and Pedro haven't played for the Red Sox in over 5 years, Manny for 1.5 years.

The real reason is the loss of Jason Bay has turned people off. The final straw, for sure. Or maybe it was the demotion of Lowell and Varitek to back ups.

These issues exist for everyone; not just the Red Sox. The Red Sox are much better off than most teams. Thinking that a year to year loss of ratings and tickets being available on Stub Hub for cheaper is attributable to Nomar and Pedro not being on the team really isn't rational.

Edited by Rudy Pemberton, 04 June 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[bosockboy]

I think it's Atlanta Braves Syndrome....if you stay at the top or near the top for too long....fans get bored with it. It's just the nature of the beast. The team won two rings; the thrill and anticipation of winning that first one finally wore off after a few years. None of this matters for diehards like us, but the casual fan gets bored with winning.

I always thought the Braves brand would have been better served by not making the playoffs some of those years and then re-entering the playoffs and creating a "new" excitement. Not saying that should happen here, just an observation.

[Lose Remerswaal]

I think the economy is part of it, but there seems to be a general malaise even for a lot of people that have tickets. I'm constantly struck this year by how many empty seats there in the first inning of games this year, or how empty the bleachers are towards the end of a lot of games.

Granted Wednesday was a gorgeous night, and the Sox were winning much of the night, but I commented in the 8th inning that it did not appear that more than a few hundred people had left. There was some emptying out after the bottom of the 8th, but when the game ended it still seemed like there were well over 33K fans still in the park.

[ragecage]

That really doesn't make a lot of sense, though. Nomar and Pedro haven't played for the Red Sox in over 5 years, Manny for 1.5 years.

Personally, I think it's been moving in that direction for a few years, and it seems more visible this year. I'm not trying to say that anything is pinpointed to any one player or players specifically, I mean more in an overall sense. It's one part of what's going on, but certainly not the only one.

[OilCanShotTupac]

Frankly, if it means it would be easier to get tickets, I'd be all for a drop in popularity. In the late 80's and 90's, it was possible to jump in the car three hours before gametime (from the Hartford area), walk up, and get good seats.

Granted, lots of that had to do with sucky teams. I'm not eager to revisit that. I also don't want to see the team's spending power suffer. But from a practical standpoint, if the Sox are no longer the hot ticket in town for people who really don't give a shit about baseball, and it means easier tickets for me, I'm A-OK with that.

[luckysox]

Frankly, if it means it would be easier to get tickets, I'd be all for a drop in popularity. In the late 80's and 90's, it was possible to jump in the car three hours before gametime (from the Hartford area), walk up, and get good seats.

Granted, lots of that had to do with sucky teams. I'm not eager to revisit that. I also don't want to see the team's spending power suffer. But from a practical standpoint, if the Sox are no longer the hot ticket in town for people who really don't give a shit about baseball, and it means easier tickets for me, I'm A-OK with that.

Ditto the bold part. I can spend 2 nights and 3 days (3 games) in Baltimore for less than one night and one game in Boston, especially if I plan in advance. This season, I did not plan in advance, and am paying $120 a night for a hotel in Baltimore, but still have AMAZING SEATS for all 3 games this weekend for less than I paid for one good seat at Fenway 3 summers ago. I'd be thrilled if the fan-boy fans would go away, making the decent seats at Fenway more affordable for people who follow this team day to day. It's selfish, sure, but it's what I wish for when stars shoot across the sky.*

*that and world peace

[Rasputin]

I remember the entirety of the Scott Cooper era. I'm not going to be phased by a temporary dip in popularity.

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That's two-time All Star Scott Cooper to you, pal.

Everything's cyclical. No one could expect that the sellout streak would last forever. The team got off to a slow start at the exact same time that the Celtics and the Bruins were heading into the playoffs. Fans have figured out that a Wed night game in April against KC isn't going to be the most compelling thing to see any more.

[Rossox]

I second and third the sentiments about the economy. That, and HD TV really have changed things considerably for me. People just have less disposable income these days and are therefore looking for more entertaining things to do at home.

I have the 10-game package so the tickets are already paid for. However, the true cost of attending a game in person can add up real quickly, and sometimes I would rather just watch the game at home in HD.

[bosockboy]

I second and third the sentiments about the economy. That, and HD TV really have changed things considerably for me. People just have less disposable income these days and are therefore looking for more entertaining things to do at home.

I have the 10-game package so the tickets are already paid for. However, the true cost of attending a game in person can add up real quickly, and sometimes I would rather just watch the game at home in HD.

And for people who have Extra Innings, etc....staying home and watching multiple games between innings and watching the game in HD, it takes some luster off the ballpark experience. As far as the economy, I think the biggest factor is probably fuel costs. Throw in a tank of gas for a mini-van to haul the family back and forth and you've thrown an extra $50 into the fire.

[jtn46]

The big problem I see isn't really the Red Sox team, it's that the Red Sox owners have handed the impulse buy customers completely over to an intimidating secondary ticket market (or a primary market designed around the secondary market, the auction nonsense). I have a random day I want to see a game at Fenway, I check redsox.com, sold out, I turn to StubHub, tickets are $80 for an actual seat. I make other plans.

IOW, even if tickets aren't hard to get, the Sox have used the secondary market to maintain the illusion that they are, and that's going to scare people away from buying tickets. As long as they value this illusion more than they value an actual full house, they're going to need to keep demand high enough to justify $80 bleachers, and that requires really good teams with star players.

[JMDurron]

I think it's Atlanta Braves Syndrome....if you stay at the top or near the top for too long....fans get bored with it. It's just the nature of the beast. The team won two rings; the thrill and anticipation of winning that first one finally wore off after a few years. None of this matters for diehards like us, but the casual fan gets bored with winning.

I always thought the Braves brand would have been better served by not making the playoffs some of those years and then re-entering the playoffs and creating a "new" excitement. Not saying that should happen here, just an observation.

I think there are two key differences between what happened with the Braves and the Red Sox now, though. Atlanta is not nearly as much of a pro baseball city as Boston is, so the strike in 1995 had a more significant, longer-term cooling effect on the enthusiasm of the casual fans in the city and region as a whole. Also, the Braves didn't just stay at or near the top for too long, they kept making the playoffs and then losing. Out of all of the playoff runs from 1991 onward, they only won a single World Series, and did not have any really significantly positive playoff moments after 1995. The Red Sox have won 2 times in 7 years, plus had two other thrilling playoff runs with lasting moments (2003 ALDS, 2008 ALCS comeback in Game 5), with only two disappointing early exits and one year without October baseball. I'm just not buying this comparison.

I think it's a combination of the economy, the Celtics/Bruins, and the poor April start that has driven down ticket prices and general enthusiasm so far this season. The lack of superstars/personalities on the team may also be a factor, but not as much of one as the three primary issues, IMO.

[TheYellowDart5]

It's not as if other franchises aren't also seeing these same issues. Check out a weekday night game at Yankee Stadium against the Orioles and you'll see large swaths of bleachers empty, not to mention the club seats behind home plate that never seem to have any people in them. It's even worse for the Mets. And that's without any New York teams competing for attention.

Maybe the Red Sox aren't the hottest ticket in town right now, but if the team gets better, the weather gets warmer and as the NBA playoffs end, I figure more and more people will come back to the ballpark.

[TomRicardo]

A couple of weeks ago both the Celtics and Bruins were in the playoffs and the Red Sox were >11 GB Tampa Bay and people were screaming to blow up the team.

[reggiecleveland]

That was also after it seemed very likely they were going to win 100 games coming out of the spring.

[JimD]

Like the stock market at its height, I think it’s a mistake to think that the last few years of fevered Red Sox excitement was ‘the new normal’. Longtime fans will still follow the team, and they probably picked up thousands of new diehards, but I cannot remember a time in my life when I saw as many bandwagon-jumping pink-hat types as I have since 2004. Barring a thrilling run deep into October, the team is probably on a down cycle in terms of fan interest. That’s probably not a bad thing unless they drop out of regular playoff contention and the ability to fund a competitive payroll becomes an issue.

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The real reason is the loss of Jason Bay has turned people off. The final straw, for sure. Or maybe it was the demotion of Lowell and Varitek to back ups.

Wait. Are you suggesting that the reason why NESN viewership is because Jason Bay is gone and Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek don't play every day? Seriously?

[zenter]

Wait. Are you suggesting that the reason why NESN viewership is because Jason Bay is gone and Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek don't play every day? Seriously?

It seemed pretty unserious as a suggestion.

Beyond the economy and terrible April, the HDTV revolution probably contributes more to this than we can predict, as does access to watch games anywhere from a computer. Fans outside of the metro-Boston area no longer need to move mountains to watch the NESN feed. With DirectTV, Boxee/Roku plus MLB.TV, "expat" Sox fans see more games than they used to on their home TVs, and at lower overall cost. The real question is how much this "dip" in popularity affects the revenue bottom-line for the team, especially if MLB Advanced Media is making more money for the league at large.

[Rudy Pemberton]

Wait. Are you suggesting that the reason why NESN viewership is because Jason Bay is gone and Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek don't play every day? Seriously?

Of course! Ratings were really high last year when we had Bay, weren't they? And now he's gone, and they are low, right? So what else could it be? People went apeshit for Bay, and now there is no one to go apeshit for. Maybe it's because Ellsbury is hurt. Or because people hate Marco Scutaro.

I'm poking fun at the original argument. Context is really, really important here. There's lots of factors going on here; I don't think the loss of characters tgat fans went "apeshit" for like Pedro, Manny, Bay, Schilling, El Guapo, etc. make that big of a difference. Players come and go. Championships are won, and not won.

I'm going with the economy, a crappy start, deep playoff runs by the C's and B's, Small sample sizes apply to things like this, too. The fact that no red sox are leading the all-start balloting a few weeks ago doesn't = people don't care about the team anymore.

What teams are having great success with attendance and TV ratings this year?

[wutang112878]

There are 4 factors driving this IMO: economy, world series titles and consistent success leading to melancholy in the fan base, crappy start and alternative options for fans [Bruins and Celts].

So far this hasnt led to a major decrease in payroll, so I dont feel overly vindictive in saying this, but I hope people dont feel sympathy for the organization. I had my wedding reception at fenway in 2005, the Red Sox took my deposit, then months later tried to triple the room rental fee on me. I couldnt even get the function planner on the phone, and when we finally scheduled an appointment to come in she was 'unavailable' which was BS. This left me a little angry believe it or not. We have also seen other evidence of them trying to use their brand popularity to exploit consumers, like the pay $10 to be a Red Sox nation member, or buy used grass that we are throwing away anyway. My point being, if you are a true die-hard fan as long as payroll isnt affected, perhaps we should be glad that they now have to face normal economic realities.

[glennhoffmania]

And for people who have Extra Innings, etc....staying home and watching multiple games between innings and watching the game in HD, it takes some luster off the ballpark experience. As far as the economy, I think the biggest factor is probably fuel costs. Throw in a tank of gas for a mini-van to haul the family back and forth and you've thrown an extra $50 into the fire.

This is a good point. I don't live in Boston so I don't usually have the option of deciding to go to Fenway at the last minute. But with EI and HD, the idea of staying in, flipping around between a few different games, saving a couple hundred bucks, etc., I could see how this may impact attendance. It doesn't explain a drop in NESN ratings though.

[Tony C]

right, by the logic of most of these explanations tv ratings should be up (or, at least, steady)...not down.

[wibi]

This is a good point. I don't live in Boston so I don't usually have the option of deciding to go to Fenway at the last minute. But with EI and HD, the idea of staying in, flipping around between a few different games, saving a couple hundred bucks, etc., I could see how this may impact attendance. It doesn't explain a drop in NESN ratings though.

I'm guessing it depends on how the NESN ratings are calculated against MLB.tv or EI and that factor might explain some of the drop. I know I dont pay for EI any more because the MLB.tv package with the PS3 allows me all I need for games plus MLB.tv can be taken on the road with me when I travel whereas EI cannot.

I dont believe the numbers are down but 26% off seems like more than just people arent watching the games on NESN.

[pokey_reese]

I remember the entirety of the Scott Cooper era. I'm not going to be phased by a temporary dip in popularity.

Seriously, there is no Phil Plantier on this team, or Jody Reed. Remember when the right side of the infield was Jeff Frye and Mo Vaughn, and every ground ball was a hit? If the Sox could survive the 90s as a fairly popular team, I am not worried about a slight dip in revenues during the worst economic climate in 80 years. Marco Scutaro would have been about the 3rd best player on the 1992 team. We know that baseball isn't recession-proof, just recession-resistent, and I would imagine that virtually every team that hasn't drastically improved the on-field product is seeing similar results. Remember, there wasn't really anywhere for the Sox to go but down, whereas a team like the Nats, who could go from .380 to .520 in terms of winning percentage while introducing young stars, has some growth potential.

[snowmanny]

I agree with a lot of what has been written in this thread, including that the Sox being good isn't "new" anymore.
I also think that the rivalry with the Yankees - which certainly fueled some of the popularity- has gotten a bit old, and somehow seems less important; maybe the fact that both teams made the playoffs in '05, '07 and '09 without running into each other has something to do with that.

I completely agree that losing the Superstars has an effect on peripheral fans. I hate him, but there was a reason that Steinbrenner always wanted the big names and a lock on the back page. For a while there the Red Sox had bona-fide HOF-level players who were also great personalities (Pedro and Manny) and other guys were maybe one notch below that but also wildly popular (Nomar, Schilling, Ortiz). It really is different now with Papelbon and Pedroia as the big names.

[zenter]

right, by the logic of most of these explanations tv ratings should be up (or, at least, steady)...not down.

Except for three very important problems.

1) Ratings are increasingly inaccurate as access to programming has changed much in the last 10 years, and don't accurately reflect time-shifting nor satellite TV.
2) Nielsen requires ratings households have a home phones and, IIRC, most (if not all) Nielsen homes only measure realtime viewing, meaning even a 30-minute delay is not measured.
3) Ratings and IP-based forms of programming access (e.g., Slingbox and MLB.TV) are not measured either.

Since most of the ways people are accessing MLB programming are via unmeasured methods.

[LoweSox]

Also, to what extent is baseball losing a bit of its recent spectacle? The 1998 homerun chase, November 2001, Bonds, Boston's 2004 run and to a lesser extent 2007 were all historical moments for the sport, especially following the strike and given the entertainment value of PEDs. Now baseball is adjusting to the era, accommodating a larger global interest (Japan and the Caribbean have replaced the heartland as the source of talent), the demands of new technology and a backlash of sorts to the plenty that came with the steroid era. Pitchers that learned to beat a 50-homerun threat every night aren't threatened the same way, and we're seeing how smarter pitching beats suddenly human lineups.

These are certainly overly romanticized generalizations, and the numbers might show little difference, but in terms of the climate and, again, the spectacle we've enjoyed, we might just be getting back to the business of baseball as it's always been.

[Clears Cleaver]

I think it is the lack of star power and likeable players more than anything. On the current roster of players, who is a player who you must see play? I think there are three...Lester, Pedroia and Ortiz. When he is healthy maybe Ellsbury. Couple that with a large number of generally unliked (by the rest of the baseball world) players in Papelbon, Youkilis, Beckett, Drew, Lackey and Beltre and you get a team that the general baseball fans no longer like and that even Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing. Even the secondary players like Victor, Cameron, Scutaro are completely non-descript to the average fan. It is just a hard team to get really excited about and embrace. Youks is a great player, but its hard for me to argue he is a good guy or a likeable persona. Same with Beckett and Lackey and Papelbon.

[mabrowndog]

We're also seeing a gargantuan spike in the number of commercials and promos for Sox tickets this year. Stub Hub's ad with Jerry Remy ("You can have any seat at Fenway... except mine!") seems to air during every single commercial break. Between batters, the TV and radio broadcast teams sneak in countless reminders about ticket availability for upcoming games. Lucchino has appeared on the NESN pregame show alongside Caron & Rice at least three times so far in carnival barker fashion, imploring viewers to go online or call the Red Sox ticket office ("People think we're sold out, but we have plenty of great seats available! Bring the family down the Fenway!").

Another issue is that even where tickets have been sold, purchasers are opting not to show up at the ball park. Season ticket holders have gotten so used to being able to transfer their seats to others that they've continued to make plans even when in conflict with the Sox schedule. Now, as noted by Theo Shmeo and BoSoxLady, they can't find takers. The notion that a purchased ticket is still money in the bank for the Sox coffers is misguided -- the team needs people to actually walk through the turnstiles on game day to buy $5 programs, $7 hot dogs, $10 beers, $30 hats and $150 jerseys. Without that, the mere sale of a ticket is almost a loss leader.

I suspect these issues are just beginning, and that the inability for season ticket holders to recover their investment for games they can't attend is going to have a huge impact on package sales for 2011.

Edited by mabrowndog, 05 June 2010 - 09:51 AM.

[Plympton91]

I think it's Atlanta Braves Syndrome....if you stay at the top or near the top for too long....fans get bored with it. It's just the nature of the beast. The team won two rings; the thrill and anticipation of winning that first one finally wore off after a few years. None of this matters for diehards like us, but the casual fan gets bored with winning.

I always thought the Braves brand would have been better served by not making the playoffs some of those years and then re-entering the playoffs and creating a "new" excitement. Not saying that should happen here, just an observation.

I think this is a really good point. I have noticed it myself. The games just don't have that same, "I've gotta watch all 9 innings" feel. It's not because the quality of the product has fallen off, and for me is partially related to changing life circumstances, but after 10 years of winning and 2 world series championships, it's not the same "Fever" as it was from 1998-2007.

[luckysox]

I think this is a really good point. I have noticed it myself. The games just don't have that same, "I've gotta watch all 9 innings" feel. It's not because the quality of the product has fallen off, and for me is partially related to changing life circumstances, but after 10 years of winning and 2 world series championships, it's not the same "Fever" as it was from 1998-2007.

See, winning and expecting wins has actually increased the level of my fever. I like watching a great product on the field; I like watching the baseball part of it, not just the Sox part. I guess it is probably different for everyone.

Edited by luckysox, 05 June 2010 - 10:01 AM.

[teejay1324]

The Celtics playoff run probably has a lot to do with it. For a lot of people on this board, myself included, yea I care about the Celtics but if I'm in front of tv and the Red Sox are playing that's my primary focus.

But outside of diehard fans I don't see this being the case. None of my buddies are diehard Red Sox fans(they think they are, but they're not) and all they've talked about, watched, cared about etc is the Celtics lately. I think the whole collective Boston sports bandwagon hopper contingent is fixated on the Celts and when the finals are over will "remember" they're diehard Sox fans and comeback to NESN, start looking for tickets and so on.

The teams rough start can't have helped either. I will admit I don't mind the pink hats and bandwagon fans being preoccupied for the last month or so. It's tough watching a game at the bar and listening to people who know absolute dick about baseball pontificate their opinions on the game of baseball.

[LoweSox]

But outside of diehard fans I don't see this being the case. . . .

. . . I will admit I don't mind the pink hats and bandwagon fans being preoccupied for the last month or so. . . .

I intend to combine the two. I just bought pink Pedroia and Ellsbury shirts and hope to sit behind home plate and cheer for Trot Nixon when J.D. Drew comes up to bat.

Honestly, the degree of 'hardcore' has never really phased me. Someone told me once I wasn't a true Red Sox fan because I said I'd like to see Rodriguez beat Bonds' home run record (as it would all happen during my time watching baseball). My reaction at this point is "okay." Any money is good money, especially if the team doesn't have to completely dumb down good baseball presentation to beg for it, and it could get to that point. I'd rather have pink sox fans who like the team via social osmosis than irritating advertising. Plus, as others have already said when they mention MLB.tv and the like, it's going to have to work that way. Traditional forms of promotion just don't mesh with the internet's more focused form of hearsay.

[Rudy Pemberton]

I think it is the lack of star power and likeable players more than anything. On the current roster of players, who is a player who you must see play? I think there are three...Lester, Pedroia and Ortiz. When he is healthy maybe Ellsbury. Couple that with a large number of generally unliked (by the rest of the baseball world) players in Papelbon, Youkilis, Beckett, Drew, Lackey and Beltre and you get a team that the general baseball fans no longer like and that even Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing.

Seriously, stop. How could a drop in ratings and attendance from last year be explained by any of this? It's completely non-sensical. Your selection of players that are "must see" and those that are "uniked" is also completely arbitrary. Youkilis and Buchholz aren't exciting to watch? Fans across baseball have a hatred towards Lackey and Beltre? Really?

1) Ratings are increasingly inaccurate as access to programming has changed much in the last 10 years, and don't accurately reflect time-shifting nor satellite TV.

This isn't true; Nielsen measures DVR'd programming and satellite TV. You are correct that things like MLB EI are not measured accurately; but that still wouldn't explain a drop in NESN ratings from one year to the next as that is only measuring ratings for people who have access to the NESN network (not something like EI). Generally, advertisers don't give a shit about someone in NY watching the NESN feed anyways, so that viewing isn't important at this time.

What percentage of Red Sox ticket sales are corporate? I'd love to know that number; I'd be curious to know how many true fans (i.e. people who are buying tix with their own cash) are in the park at any given time. Guess my thinking here is that people who are getting freebies are a lot less likely to not show up for various reasons (can't get out of work or get a babysitter, rather watch the C's, not as interested, weather, etc) than people who are putting down their own cash. Less corporate interest, which would be primarily economics related, would be very important from a business sense but woudln't necessarily indicate lack of interest.

In the long run, if scalpers are being forced to sell tickets for less than face, than ideally they buy less tickets in the future, making more tickets available on the primary market for the "real fans". Sounds good to me.

[URI]

I think it is the lack of star power and likeable players more than anything. On the current roster of players, who is a player who you must see play? I think there are three...Lester, Pedroia and Ortiz. When he is healthy maybe Ellsbury. Couple that with a large number of generally unliked (by the rest of the baseball world) players in Papelbon, Youkilis, Beckett, Drew, Lackey and Beltre and you get a team that the general baseball fans no longer like and that even Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing. Even the secondary players like Victor, Cameron, Scutaro are completely non-descript to the average fan. It is just a hard team to get really excited about and embrace. Youks is a great player, but its hard for me to argue he is a good guy or a likeable persona. Same with Beckett and Lackey and Papelbon.

If you can't find a 95 win team interesting, then you're kind of a spoiled little fuck.

If Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing their team when they're obviously one of the best teams in the majors then they aren't Red Sox fans. I can understand not really paying much attention when you have a year like 1997, or 2001...but saying that a team that wins like the Red Sox have since 2003 is "boring", well that's Bill Simmons bullshit and I'd prefer you not waste everyone's time with your cartoonish view of fandom.

Go watch Transformers 2 or some other movie with 'splosions since they are more interesting than the team that has the 2nd most wins in baseball over the last 5 years. It'll keep your attention and be more "likable" or whatever nonsense you want to spew.

[soxfan121]

The FO was too successful in their quest to field a roster of quiet, even-keeled professionals and to rid the clubhouse of the "Idiot" culture. The Red Sox haven't had a legitimately crazy player since mid-2008 and haven't had more than one since 2005. They went from playing 4 hour games with a couple HOF quality talents and a couple personalities to playing 4 hour games where the only legit drama is who will win the game. They play great baseball - unfortunately, selling tickets is about more than just winning baseball games.

[Andrew]

The FO was too successful in their quest to field a roster of quiet, even-keeled professionals and to rid the clubhouse of the "Idiot" culture. The Red Sox haven't had a legitimately crazy player since mid-2008 and haven't had more than one since 2005. They went from playing 4 hour games with a couple HOF quality talents and a couple personalities to playing 4 hour games where the only legit drama is who will win the game. They play great baseball - unfortunately, selling tickets is about more than just winning baseball games.

Do you have anything to back this up? Because, no offense, it seems ludicrous. If you have a baseball market (ie: Not Florida) then winning is basically all you need. The Red Sox were below average to start the season. They've been very good since. It'll pick up this summer.

Getting on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is about more than just winning baseball games. Selling tickets, not as much.

[Quintanariffic]

If you can't find a 95 win team interesting, then you're kind of a spoiled little fuck.

If Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing their team when they're obviously one of the best teams in the majors then they aren't Red Sox fans. I can understand not really paying much attention when you have a year like 1997, or 2001...but saying that a team that wins like the Red Sox have since 2003 is "boring", well that's Bill Simmons bullshit and I'd prefer you not waste everyone's time with your cartoonish view of fandom.

Go watch Transformers 2 or some other movie with 'splosions since they are more interesting than the team that has the 2nd most wins in baseball over the last 5 years. It'll keep your attention and be more "likable" or whatever nonsense you want to spew.

I want to roll around in jello with this post.

[HomeBrew1901]

If you can't find a 95 win team interesting, then you're kind of a spoiled little fuck.

If Red Sox fans have a tough time embracing their team when they're obviously one of the best teams in the majors then they aren't Red Sox fans. I can understand not really paying much attention when you have a year like 1997, or 2001...but saying that a team that wins like the Red Sox have since 2003 is "boring", well that's Bill Simmons bullshit and I'd prefer you not waste everyone's time with your cartoonish view of fandom.

Go watch Transformers 2 or some other movie with 'splosions since they are more interesting than the team that has the 2nd most wins in baseball over the last 5 years. It'll keep your attention and be more "likable" or whatever nonsense you want to spew.

People can want to fuck this post all they want, but Clears Cleavers is right when it comes to fan expectations and answering Berry's initial post. You are arguing from the point of a die hard that enjoys every facet baseball and you don't care about player personalities which is great, most of us here on SoSH feel the same way. However when it comes to selling tickets and getting the casual fan to watch the games on NESN this is about as bland and unlikeable a Red Sox team as you are going to find that has a strong shot at making the playoffs.

Now add in all the other factors, Celtics/Bruins, the "Braves affect", a really shitty April, a crappy economy and you have a perfect storm that could derail this team in the near future. The thrill of going to Fenway is pretty much gone for the casual fan, it's now a been there done that kind of thing, and while that's great for you or I when it comes to getting tickets, it's not going to help ownership. Add in the cost to go to games, from the cost of the tickets to the hot dogs and Sodas, add everything up and the Sox have priced your average family from going even once a season, let alone being able to go multiple times a year like when I was a kid. My kids are 6 and 3 and there is no way in hell I am taking either of them to Fenway unless I get the tickets for free, I'd rather take them to see the Fishercats when the whole night will cost me about 50-60 bucks for a family of four for really good seats and Parking when it would cost me close to $300-400 for the same experience and that would be just the cost of the tickets.

Hell, I never used to miss a game, and after the April they had I find myself doing other things while listening to the game on the radio or following along on the internet. I'm following the race, excited that they gained 2 games in 2 days on the Rays and Yankees, but I'm simply finding other things to do during this part of the season rather than devote as much time as I used to to the Sox. There was a point in time when I knew every guy that was on the Sox roster and knew who was called up and when, now I get surprised every now and again when I hear someone like Joe Nelson is pitching, I had no idea that they picked him up.

If that makes me a bad fan so be it, but baseball just isn't nearly as important to me as it used to be and 2004 and 2007 have a lot to do with that.

[URI]

If that makes me a bad fan so be it, but baseball just isn't nearly as important to me as it used to be and 2004 and 2007 have a lot to do with that.

You're arguing something different than he was. You are saying that winning has made following the team less important. That's diminishing marginal returns, which isn't how I'm wired, but that's probably a part of the issue (though I'm not sure if the 'issue' actually exists in a tangible way beyond the anecdotal). Everything else in your post is a rational argument, save the whole 'I have other priorities' thing, because for every one fan that dials back every year, I would guess 1-2 are created.*

He's saying that the team isn't interesting because of the lack of 'personalities'...that people aren't coming because there are only 3.5 players that are worth seeing. As if you had a 95 win team wasn't interesting enough, you needed a clown car spraying your left fielder with seltzer in the middle to keep interest.

There is a difference there. It might be subtle, but it's very significant.

*made up number

[HomeBrew1901]

You're arguing something different than he was. You are saying that winning has made following the team less important. That's diminishing marginal returns, which isn't how I'm wired, but that's probably a part of the issue (though I'm not sure if the 'issue' actually exists in a tangible way beyond the anecdotal). Everything else in your post is a rational argument, save the whole 'I have other priorities' thing, because for every one fan that dials back every year, I would guess 1-2 are created.*

He's saying that the team isn't interesting because of the lack of 'personalities'...that people aren't coming because there are only 3.5 players that are worth seeing. As if you had a 95 win team wasn't interesting enough, you needed a clown car spraying your left fielder with seltzer in the middle to keep interest.

There is a difference there. It might be subtle, but it's very significant.

*made up number

I went back and re-read Cleaver's post and I guess what I'm saying is I can understand his point when it comes to the casual fan. If you ask your average casual fan the significance of 95 wins, I'm willing to bet that a majority will have no idea what it means. I think most casual fans do care about the personalities and enjoy rooting for a player that they like and quite honestly this team doesn't have a lot of likeable personalities outside of Pedroia, Lester and Ortiz.

I'm not saying that is the main cause, but it certainly doesn't help. At this point in the season, especially with the way they started, there isn't a lot to hold a "pink hat's" attention, I also think that a lot of people are waiting until July or August to fully get on the bandwagon. They are waiting to see where the team is in the race to see how much time they are going to spend following the team, but once they make the playoffs all you'll hear about is how they watched all 162 and never had a doubt that they would be there.

Edited by HomeBrew1901, 05 June 2010 - 11:30 PM.

[URI]

My response is that if personalities make the team, then why didn't the Orioles or Jays benefit from Kevin Millar? Because the teams weren't very good.

If the team wins, people will come. If you are bored with a winning team, then fuck you, you entitled fuck. That's all I'm saying. Get a monkey.

Casual fans are completely fungible, but there is a difference between the ones that causally follow a baseball team (they know the significance of 95 wins) and the fools that are on Toucher and Rich (they don't know who Kevin Youkilis is).

The first group is affected by the environmental problems you talked about. The 2nd group loves Sweet Caroline.

[HomeBrew1901]

My response is that if personalities make the team, then why didn't the Orioles or Jays benefit from Kevin Millar? Because the teams weren't very good.

If the team wins, people will come. If you are bored with a winning team, then fuck you, you entitled fuck. That's all I'm saying. Get a monkey.

Casual fans are completely fungible, but there is a difference between the ones that causally follow a baseball team (they know the significance of 95 wins) and the fools that are on Toucher and Rich (they don't know who Kevin Youkilis is).

The first group is affected by the environmental problems you talked about. The 2nd group loves Sweet Caroline.

I see what you are saying now and we are basically discussing different points of the same issue. I agree with you 100% if at the end of the season the team is in the race and looks like they could make the playoffs then you are right fans will be back and finding reasons to root for guys that they wouldn't be able to stand on a losing team.

I'll also admit to liking Sweet Caroline at Sox games (unless Neil Diamond is actually there, that was embarrassing) and Wally. Actually I think Wally is great because he (it) is something that even the youngest kids can enjoy and associate with the Sox.