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OK we're back on our main server.  It was taking a super long time to move *everything* back just to save a day's worth of messages.  I've been at this all day now and need to get back to my real job so.,... sorry.  Working on a better plan in case this happens again.  nip

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Figure Skating


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#1 bsj


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Posted 24 December 2009 - 07:37 AM

Any Americans girls have a shot at medaling?

#2 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 25 January 2010 - 11:55 PM

QUOTE (bsj @ Dec 24 2009, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any Americans girls have a shot at medaling?



Well, just got through the US figure skating championship, and Rachel Flatt was pretty impressive in breaking 200 pts combined, first for US women. She's technically solid, artistically mature (if not spectacular), and is pretty unfazed in big competitions.

The real story was the rise of the young 16 year old Mirai Nagasu, who made a bit of news back in Korea with her playful comment to "blow away" Yuna Kim at the Olympics (hey, if folks think Boston sports writers overreact - Korean figure coverage rivals daytime soap writers in their ability to create fake controversies.)

I thought Cohen did really well for someone who's been out of competition this long, but it was pretty clear she needed to enter a few more competition before this event. She still had her grace and the charming smile though.

As far as a US medal? Absolutely - it being Vancouver, the support will be there, and Flatt rarely makes mistakes. She also beat Yuna Kim at the Skate America last year.

However, if Asada Mao can land her triples -- which is a BIG if -- she will compete Kim for the gold. And unless both Kim and Mao make major mistakes, I think the best Flatt can place is 3rd.

US figures is in a bit of a drought, without a big charismatic star. I think Nagasu could be that skater, but her time is in 2014 Winters not now.



#3 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 25 January 2010 - 11:59 PM

QUOTE (Fred not Lynn @ Nov 27 2009, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Most people in North America don't quite get how big Yu-Na Kim really is. It didn't help that when she appeard in Canada as a guest performer on "Battle of the Blades" she fell...but yeah, she's huge, and she's awesome.

As far as short track is concerned, that's a sport that would be better followed over a whole season, like baseball - I don't really think this sport (or really any sport) is suited to the "one big race" mentality that the Olympic brand Games are about. I do appreciate how Korea has embraced short track. It is certainly the most commercially under-exploited sports there is, and unbelievably fun to watch.

I would however, warn the fans of Korea, that their nemisis Ohno isn't quite finished yet - and that they say that J.R. Celski is even better...



Celski has to be the favorites in a number of short track events. I like his aggressiveness and the burst. Ohno will be forever hated in South Korea, our own version of ARod, and I will be rooting hard for all other US events except for short track and figures.

#4 Kremlin Watcher

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:55 AM

Serious question: what kind of world record can one possess in a judged sport like figure skating? Since there are no objective measures of performance how can anything in the sport be considered to be an absolute record?

#5 Fratboy


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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:13 PM

KW, you're not too familiar with the new scoring system in figure skating, are you? It's similar to diving.

#6 foulkehampshire


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Posted 27 January 2010 - 06:30 PM

Hot girls in spandex doing triple-axels....whats not to like?

I'm stoked.

#7 Fratboy


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Posted 27 January 2010 - 09:43 PM

Dude. The hot girls doing triple Axels are jailbait.

I can't believe this thread has gotten this far without this:





#8 Kremlin Watcher

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Fratboy @ Jan 27 2010, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
KW, you're not too familiar with the new scoring system in figure skating, are you? It's similar to diving.

Guess not. Not a big fan of the sport, but I think you answered my question. So the world record referred to is for highest points scored?

#9 goyangfc


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Posted 28 January 2010 - 10:26 AM

Unless YuNa Kim makes any mistakes, she'll win the gold. I already have the event added on my Google Calendar to witness the one gold medal for South Korea in an event other than in short track speed skating. I'm with SSF on rooting for South Korea in the skating events (figure, short track speed, speed), but in other events, especially in ice hockey, it's all about Canada, folks. Except...I WILL NOT be chanting, "Eh! Oh! Canada Go!"

#10 Burt Reynoldz

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:32 PM

I was going to say, I was hoping this thread would be filled with pictures of hot female skaters that might convince me to watch more than curling this year.

#11 Fred not Lynn


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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:05 PM

QUOTE (goyangfc @ Jan 28 2010, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but in other events, especially in ice hockey, it's all about Canada, folks. Except...I WILL NOT be chanting, "Eh! Oh! Canada Go!"

I'm sure this belongs in the Olympic Hockey thread when it gets started - but I can't think of many teams in sports history under more pressure than the Canadian men's ice hockey team for the 2010 Olympic Winter Games.

There's ALWAYS pressure on the Canada team, since the NHL players began playing - nothing short of the Olympic Championship is acceptable to the Canadian media and the Canadian fans...and they have to overcome a very poor showing in 2006.

And they're at home. Home field isn't always an advantage.

I do also know this - I hope the NHL is able to extend this set-up to Sochi. I think an Ovechkin led Russian team playing at home will be an interesting thing.

#12 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 10 February 2010 - 05:24 AM

NYTimes with an interview with Yuna Kim:

http://video.nytimes.../...0kim&st=cse

SI also picks her to win the gold as the overwhelming favorite. But Mao just won the last Continentals by landing both of her triples - for the first time in 5 tournaments. This being figure skating, nothing will be guaranteed.

#13 mpjc

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 11:18 AM

Also from the NYTimes, this really interesting, detailed analysis of Kim's jumping.

#14 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 13 February 2010 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE (mpjc @ Feb 10 2010, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also from the NYTimes, this really interesting, detailed analysis of Kim's jumping.


That is superb. Thanks for posting it. Another obstacle may stand in Kim's way however, a judge (Miriam Overweller) who has consistently downgraded her jumps is the official technical panel in the women's, often alone in the panel of other judges

Here's the YouTube video that not only does a fantastic job explaining the power of Kim's jumps, but also hints at the controversy:

<youtube>Pmi51qXzOUg&hl</youtube>

Of course, figure skating's judging has always been controversy, with the Russian gold over Canada in 2002 (Wikipedia covers it here), as well as the skating article on Slate.com:

http://www.slate.com/id/2244277/

QUOTE
In his earlier research, Zitzewitz found that judges awarded higher scores to athletes from their home countries. Using data on nearly 3,000 performances from 61 international competitions between 2000-02 (including the Olympics), Zitzewitz found that the "home judges bias" added nearly 0.2 points to skaters' scores (on a six-point scale), often enough to boost their ranking by at least one position. The data also supported the theory that figure skating federations were making backroom deals: Zitzewitz found that countries could be separated into "voting blocs" whose judges favored one another's skaters: Russians scratched French backs, and the favor was returned, benefitting both countries' skaters at the expense of the competition. As a result, having a countryman on the panel helped a skater not just through the direct effect of that one judge's scoring—the home-country judge also convinced others on the panel to inflate their scores.


How does relate to 2010 Women's competition? Overweller's an old time mentor/student of Junko Hiramatsu, a long-time Japanese coach. It's also worth noting that Japan is the world's biggest sponsor of figure skating, and there are just as much heresays and rumors about their corporate influence as there were during the former Soviet Union's "block" voting heyday.

#15 V.I. Tessie

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Posted 15 February 2010 - 12:30 PM

We're all rooting for Amanda Evora and Mark Ladwig here on St. Croix. Amanda is the daughter of a co-worker of mine.

Needless to say, he's incredibly proud and incredibly exhausted.



#16 Fratboy


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Posted 18 February 2010 - 12:24 PM

Well, tonight, I think you'll see the top 3 guys medal, and in the same order they finished in the short program with greater point separation. What's going to kill Lysacek is the lack of a quad combo, and Plushenko's almost certainly gonna be rocking two of those That will give him a 6 point edge on jump elements alone.

What Lysacek is going to have to hope for is Plushenko to 1) fall on the quad and 2) have it downgraded to a triple by failing to complete the revolutions. Lysacek will have a definite edge in prorgam components and spins and footwork, but he'll need some help to get gold. Likewise for Takahashi.

Johnny Weir, along with Oda, Lambiel, and Chan have almost no shot, and will need to be perfect to medal, along with the aforementioned help.

#17 mpjc

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 08:38 PM

Takahashi has said he will attempt a quad in the long program.

PS: just now, in their preview, NBC used video of another J skater (Kozuka Takahiko) as they talked about Takahashi. SO LAME.

Edited by mpjc, 18 February 2010 - 08:44 PM.


#18 Fratboy


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Posted 18 February 2010 - 09:19 PM

Catch Chris and Simon and Eurosport for you skating junkies:

http://www.fromsport...deo-178971.html

#19 Fratboy


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 12:42 AM

Okay so what won it for Lysacek? Here's the breakdown. Lysacek's on the left, Plushenko on the right:

Lysacek vs. Plushenko
Planned Elements Executed Elements Base Value GOE Score Planned Elements Executed Elements Base Value GOE Score
Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop Triple Lutz + Triple Toeloop 10 1.4 11.4 Quad. Toeloop + Triple Toeloop + Double Loop Quad. Toeloop + Triple Toeloop 13.8 0.8 14.6
Triple Axel + Double Toeloop Triple Axel + Double Toeloop 10.45 -0.56 9.89 Triple Axel + Double Toeloop Triple Axel + Double Toeloop 9.5 1 10.5
Triple Flip + Double Toeloop + Double Loop Triple Flip + Double Toeloop + Double Loop 9.13 -0.4 8.73 Triple Lutz + Double Toeloop Triple Lutz + Double Toeloop 8.03 0 8.03
Triple Axel Triple Axel 8.2 0.6 8.8 Triple Axel Triple Axel 8.2 -0.36 7.84
Triple Lutz Triple Lutz 6.6 1.4 8 Triple Lutz Triple Lutz 6 0.6 6.6
Triple Salchow Triple Salchow 4.5 1 5.5 Triple Salchow Triple Salchow 4.95 0.8 5.75
Triple Loop Triple Loop 5.5 1 6.5 Triple Loop Triple Loop 5 0.6 5.6
Double Axel Double Axel 3.85 0.8 4.65 Double Axel Double Axel 3.85 1 4.85
Straight Line Step Sequence Straight Line Step Sequence 3 3.3 0.9 4.2 Straight Line Step Sequence Straight Line Step Sequence 3 3.3 1 4.3
Change Foot Combination Spin Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.5 1 4.5 Change Foot Combination Spin Change Foot Combination Spin 4 3.5 0.6 4.1
Circular Step Sequence Circular Step Sequence 4 3.9 1.2 5.1 Circular Step Sequence Circular Step Sequence 3 3.3 0.8 4.1
Fly. Change Foot Sit Spin Fly. Change Foot Sit Spin 4 3 0.5 3.5 Change Foot Sit Spin Change Foot Sit Spin 4 3 0.7 3.7
Flying Sit Spin Flying Sit Spin 4 3 0.8 3.8 Flying Sit Spin Flying Sit Spin 3 2.6 0.14 2.74
Totals Executed Elements 74.93 84.57 Totals Executed Elements 75.03 82.71


They TIED in program components, the presentation scores. Plushenko has a 0.3 point edge in jumps, which was where he was supposed to lap the field. However, Lysacek beats him 21.10 to 18.94 in the non-jump elements.

You heard right: Lysacek won because of his superior spins and footwork, something that never would have happened in the old scoring system, when spins and footwork were basically considered presentation.

Also, note that the base value of the executed elements is slightly higher for Plushenko than Lysacek: 75.03 vs. 74.93. Lysacek simply executed his elements better. And visually speaking, Plushenko looked sloppy; Lysacek polished.

Despite the bigger and more spectacular jumps, Plushenko did not execute them particularly well. Guess what, bitch? You had a 3.2 point lead on Lysacek after your quad/triple combo, but you gave up 4.5 points the rest of the way because you couldn't do anything else.

Edited by Fratboy, 19 February 2010 - 12:51 AM.


#20 86spike


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:06 AM

so Elvis Stojko is flinging his feces around like an angry monkey today:

The Night They Killed Figure Skating

QUOTE
How can you be Olympic champion when you don’t even try the quad? If you’re going to take the quad out, why not take out another triple axel and just have more of the other stuff so the International Skating Union can make it more into an “art” recital.

Plushenko had a great performance. His footwork was great and maybe his spins weren’t quite as good as Lysacek’s, but it wasn’t that big of a difference. He also had a quad toe triple toe that wasn’t even attempted by anyone else. He did both triple axels, so all the jumps were there.

But the judges’ scoring was ridiculous.

Because of it, the sport took a step backward. Brian Boitano did the same thing, technically, in 1988. There are junior skaters who can skate that same program.


QUOTE
And the judges’ scoring probably killed figure skating because kids now are going to see this and say, “Oh, I don’t need a quad. I can just do great footwork for presentation marks and do a couple of nice spins and make it to Olympic champion.” With that type of scoring, you don’t have to risk it. You can play it safe and win gold.

In what other sports do you have to hold back in order to win?

The International Skating Union has taken the risk out of figure skating and it makes me sick.

If Plushenko had made some mistakes, then sure, maybe Lysacek deserves gold. But when you take the risk out of skaters’ programs, it doesn’t compute to me.

And it’s not a personal thing. I like Evan. But when you compare performances and have an outcome like this, the sport is going backward. And it hurts me to say it because I love this sport. But the judges made a mockery of it by giving Lysacek the gold.


QUOTE
I am going to watch hockey, where athletes are allowed to push the envelope. A real sport.


#21 Maalox


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE (bsj @ Dec 24 2009, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Any Americans girls have a shot at medaling?

Will Brooke reveal her deep, dark secret to Emma and Madison - or will she risk everything to be with her soulmate, Thane?

#22 Fratboy


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:25 AM

QUOTE (86spike @ Feb 19 2010, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
so Elvis Stojko is flinging his feces around like an angry monkey today:

I love these two passages:

QUOTE
In Thursday night’s men’s free skate, Lysacek skated slow and his jumps weren’t close to the technical ability of defending Olympic champion Evgeni Plushenko.

QUOTE
Johnny Weir was great. He should’ve been higher than sixth – above Patrick Chan, who was fifth. Weir outskated Chan. He might’ve skated a little bit slow but he went out there and did his stuff. I feel bad for him.

Stojko is really looking to have it both ways. Lysacek's jumps were executed better than Plushenko's - a casual observer would note nearly all of Plushenko's jumps had wonky landings.

But what Weir was hammered for was not his jumps, but for his presentation. It's almost as if he didn't look at the protocols. But in his mind, he didn't have to, because he's been there, and because the Code of Points shouldn't exist. And he freely admits to having no idea how to fix it, but just knows what's happened isn't "right." Whatever.

The irony is that Lysacek's technically superior to Weir, and Stojko appeared to favor Weir over Lysacek, despite not explicitly saying so.

#23 braudimusprime

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:29 AM

Fratboy thanks for the breakdown of the Lysacek/Plushenko scoring, that was a fantastic post.

#24 pedros hairstylist


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:34 AM

So the most enjoyable part of Lysacek winning is that it meant that uber-cunt Plushenko lost. In the post-11pm news version of the NBC Olympics with Mary Carillo last night, Andrea Joyce first interviewed Lysacek and he was gracious, flabbergasted and essentially in shock. Very sweet. Then, she interviews Plushenko and he was very sour, hand on his hip, dismissive of the questions, and essentially used her "How do you feel about the silver medal" question to talk about how he has a gold already -- as well as another silver -- so he's good and trashing the new scoring system is. He can't believe a man won without doing a quad and said he "knew" he would win with the quad. When she asked him if he thought after he skated that he had won, he just said "Yes" and then dead air.

Here's a snippet from today's NYT story on the event:

QUOTE
When he saw his score, he looked stunned. He had come back to win the gold medal, and would have been the first man to win back-to-back Olympic golds since Dick Button in 1952, but that victory was not to be."I was positive that I won," Plushenko said. "But I saw that Evan needs a medal more than I do. Maybe because I already have one."


#25 Rustjive

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:35 AM

This is perhaps the best line:

QUOTE
• I thought Daisuke Takahashi was awesome. He tried the quad and he had the guts to go for it, and he should’ve been ahead of Lysacek in that aspect.


Yup, trying the quad and completely blowing it is better than trying something slightly less difficult and executing it perfectly. Sure...

#26 Maalox


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:54 AM

QUOTE (Rustjive @ Feb 19 2010, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yup, trying the quad and completely blowing it is better than trying something slightly less difficult and executing it perfectly. Sure...

Think of this logic applied to slalom skiing. You miss a gate but get a pass for it precisely because you tried to cut it too close.

That aside I don't completely blame Plushenko for such a comment, inasmuch as it suggests to me that the International Soap Opera Federation or whatever hasn't done something it could very easily do, which is to state unequivocally: "only executed tricks will be scored. No credit will be given for attempt 1) in satisfaction of a requirement, 2) as or in the context of artistic merit, or 3) as or in any sort of bonus scoring. That is the rule, period. Deal with it." I don't follow this sport but it seems to me that that is an easy thing to at least declare. Has the ISOF not done so? If not, is that because they are too weak or because they secretly want the nonsense to continue? Or if they have, have the monkeys simply thrown so much feces since as to have taken over most of the zoo?


#27 Fratboy


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 11:12 AM

QUOTE (Maalox @ Feb 19 2010, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Think of this logic applied to slalom skiing. You miss a gate but get a pass for it precisely because you tried to cut it too close.

That aside I don't completely blame Plushenko for such a comment, inasmuch as it suggests to me that the International Soap Opera Federation or whatever hasn't done something it could very easily do, which is to state unequivocally: "only executed tricks will be scored. No credit will be given for attempt 1) in satisfaction of a requirement, 2) as or in the context of artistic merit, or 3) as or in any sort of bonus scoring. That is the rule, period. Deal with it." I don't follow this sport but it seems to me that that is an easy thing to at least declare. Has the ISOF not done so? If not, is that because they are too weak or because they secretly want the nonsense to continue? Or if they have, have the monkeys simply thrown so much feces since as to have taken over most of the zoo?

It all depends on how you define "executed trick." There are three facets to a jump, for example: the takeoff, rotation, and landing. Everyone succeeds at the takeoff. The rotation can be an issue, because jumps can be over- and under-rotated. And obviously, on the landing, you can be clean, wonky, two-footed, "fall out" without touching the ice, or fall.

There are multiple ways of assessing success, and multiple ways of assessing varying degrees of failure, and this attempts to reconcile them and allow for the permutations. Practically, though, you can't judge this way because you'll hamper the sport technically. Were this the case, the quad would be dead, and the only real difference between men and women would be the triple axel.

#28 gaelgirl


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 01:40 PM

Plushy and others can whine and cry all they wants about how he "should" have won, but he didn't execute enough to do so. He knows, deep down, this is true. He lost by about 1.4 points. There are so many ways he could have made up for that. He front-loaded the program instead of going for bonus points, he had a very good quad in combination but took out the planned third jump in that combination, and his air positioning and landings on a majority of the rest of his jumps were bad.

He lost not in presentation or footwork and spins, but because of poor execution of his elements. Here are his Grades of Execution on his jumps: 0.8, -0.36, 1.0, 0.6, 0.6, 0.0, .8 and 1.0. Here's Lysacek's GOE: 1.4, 0.6, 1.0, -0.56, 1.0, -0.4, 1.4, 0.8. The difference? 1.6 points in Lysacek's favor. The margin of victory? 1.31 points. If Mullet Man had strong, confident landings on his jumps instead of what we got, he would be the winner.

As for the quad being "the future" of the sport: I went through the master sheets and looked at all the scores. Only three skaters performed a quad without being downgraded (usually significantly, by -4 or more). Yes, it likely is the future of the sport, but we're not even close to being to a point where it is something that is necessary to win. There are not enough skaters who can consistently land it cleanly.

I don't think skaters are ignoring the quad and I am sure every one of them is trying to perfect it in practice. Many of the skaters last night are capable of it, but didn't make the attempt because it was too risky. Eventually I think there will be a lot of skaters who can land it consistently. But for now, one of the things I do like about the Code of Points is that it rewards for the myriad other difficult things in figure skating. I think there needs to be some sanity sometimes in how those other things are rewarded, but figure skating shouldn't turn into a jumping competition with a few other elements thrown in as an afterthought.

#29 JimD

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 03:01 PM

Lysacek was unwilling to attempt a quad because he is still dealing with a stress fracture in his foot:

Pain in foot forces Lysacek to scrap quad for Olympics

QUOTE
A reoccurring foot problem will prevent Evan Lysacek from trying the hardest jump in figure skating this week at the Olympics.

The defending world champion has ruled out the quadruple toe loop, a four-rotation jump that’s typically worth big points given its high risk and high level of difficulty, because of lingering pain from a stress fracture he suffered last year in his left foot.


QUOTE
Lysacek said he experimented with the quad before nationals since he wanted to “figure out whether or not it was a risk I wanted to take at the Olympics, in the biggest moment of my life. … It didn’t prove to be a worthwhile risk for me.”



#30 Rustjive

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 04:53 PM

http://sportsillustr....html?eref=sihp

Plushenko questions judging

QUOTE
Plushenko, the defending Olympic champion who led after the short program, was second best in the free and had to settle for silver behind American Evan Lysacek.
He says he was the only leading competitor to land a quadruple jump, and therefore should have secured first place.


It's a bit sad that one of the best skaters in the sport doesn't actually understand the sport. Plushenko's idea of figure skating is just a jumping shootout - do quads until you fall, the person that does the most wins. What a moron.

#31 gaelgirl


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 05:42 PM

Plushenko was the only leading competitor to land a quad, that's true. He was also the only leading competitor to fail to get above a 1.0 GOE for any element. He's the only one in the top 7 to fail to do so. Only one other guy, Kozuka from Japan in 8th, failed to do so in the top 10. Plushenko controlled his own fate and he blew it. He can't blame judging, he can only blame himself. He had the technical content to win, he just failed to execute. There's no debate about that.

#32 Fratboy


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 07:30 PM

On top of that Rustjive, the quad/triple combo is just 1 of 13 elements, in addition to program components. Him stating he should win based on completing 1 element is a 6.0 system mentality.

There's no doubt in my mind he would have won in a 6.0 system, but that hasn't been around for 5 years. Ironically, the new scoring system helped him more than any other man (it arguably helped Sasha Cohen more than any other woman), and only now, when he fails to execute, does he rail against it.

#33 mabrowndog


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:35 PM

Lysacek was extremely gracious during his interview with Costas tonight, sidestepping the questions about all the Russian bitching and moaning. He said he guy was obviously disappointed and it wouldn't be fair to react to his comments emotionally, then went on to heap praise on the guy for being a role model who's raised the caliber of the sport.

Smart to the 2344598th power. He couldn't have handled it better, IMO. That loud ringing sound you all heard was a few hundred potential sponsors calling simultaneously.

#34 StupendousMan

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Fratboy @ Feb 19 2010, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Were this the case, the quad would be dead, and the only real difference between men and women would be the triple axel.


.... between (men and Midori Ito) and women ...



#35 OilCanShotTupac


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE (mabrowndog @ Feb 19 2010, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lysacek was extremely gracious during his interview with Costas tonight, sidestepping the questions about all the Russian bitching and moaning. He said he guy was obviously disappointed and it wouldn't be fair to react to his comments emotionally, then went on to heap praise on the guy for being a role model who's raised the caliber of the sport.

Smart to the 2344598th power. He couldn't have handled it better, IMO. That loud ringing sound you all heard was a few hundred potential sponsors calling simultaneously.


Agreed. Lysacek was humble and genuine. Hard not to like the guy. Good for him.

#36 SoxScout


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:47 PM

Definitely the most likable guy that skated.

Edited by SoxScout, 19 February 2010 - 08:55 PM.


#37 pedros hairstylist


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Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:13 PM

I read somewhere today that if it weren't for the Russians cheating in 2002, there would be no new scoring system. How do you say "poetic justice" in Russian?

#38 gaelgirl


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Posted 20 February 2010 - 02:22 AM

That's more or less true, PH. I would guess that the scoring would have been revamped eventually, because their were always issues (or at least rumors) of similar pre-determined placements (especially in ice dancing; I think the French judge was trading pairs scoring for an ice dancing boost later). But, it took one very obvious example to really get them to move on the change. They got it with the Russian/French judge conspiracy.

#39 Fratboy


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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:46 PM

I like the scoring system in theory, but it's worked less well in execution. I don't know if it currently forces judges to abstain from the backroom deals, grouping the skaters, prejudging the program components rankings.

The result in the men's was certainly right. We'll see on Sunday and Monday how they do with the dancing, which for me, seems to be the most corrupt judging-wise. Let's see how much movement there is.

To go back to what I talked about in the live thread: Within the last 20 years, there was a ladies world champion who didn't even ATTEMPT a combination: Oksana Baiul in 1993.



Now compare with Surya Bonaly, same competition:


There is absolutely zero question in my mind whatsoever that Surya Bonaly was jobbed, as was Nancy Kerrigan at the Olympics the next year. Oksana didn't attempt a single combination, and Bonaly attempted, and landed cleanly, two. I don't think the differences in spins and footwork (does Oksana even have a step sequence?) even come close to how much Bonaly pwn3d her in the jump elements. And the choreography for Bonaly did not suck as much as was reputed. Oksana just kinda moves and poses and shit, but Bonaly skates.

You can make an argument for Bonaly over Yuka Sato the next year, as she had some shaky landings, but they were much much closer and Baiul and Bonaly.

I believe Paul Wylie got jobbed in the 1992 Olympics as well. He lacked a combination (his "combinations" were sequences), but they were all clean, and Petrenko had four shaky landings, include a fall-out (not a fall, but a fall-out) on a triple axel, I believe. Zero question in mind Wylie should have won that free skate.

#40 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 20 February 2010 - 11:55 PM

QUOTE (Fratboy @ Feb 20 2010, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is absolutely zero question in my mind whatsoever that Surya Bonaly was jobbed


If you remeber, after Bonaly got robbed there were heated charges of racism and it got really ugly for a while. Not a good moment in figure skating history (and that's not easy to do.)

I like the scoring system, and prevents less of these pure chicanery. However, I can see how it can be confusing for pretty much everyone but the hard-core fans.

I have to say that this Olympic's men's brought me back as a fan, and truly enjoyed Lysacek's performances on and off the rink. And it's good for the sport that he won the gold w/o a quad.

I thought Weir's exchanges with his coach in Russian, as this was his last Olympics for sure, were also touching.

#41 Gehenna


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Posted 21 February 2010 - 01:15 AM

Ouch, I hate to see Stojko say those things because he's always been one of my favorite skaters. But he's so completely off base its unbelievable. Anyone who watched both programs and genuinely believes that Plushenko deserved the gold is off their rocker. Fratboy nails it when he says that his landings were "wonky." Who the fuck would actually think that someone should get the gold just because they attempted a quad? His performance simply was not as good at Lysacek's.

Fratboy, do you actually enjoy/respect ice dancing? As our resident figure skating expert, I am curious what you feel about it. I think it's terribly boring and a mockery to real figure skaters. Please correct me if I am wrong, which I may be, but I can't get over the fact that they all have to perform the same routine in the compulsory.

#42 Fratboy


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Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:56 PM

Well, that's what a compulsory routine is. Everybody does the same thing, the same way. That's what the school figures were, but were eliminated from competition due to pressure from the television networks and the public who didn't understand how someone could lead after compulsories, skate poor original and free programs and still win.

You can argue that the jumps aren't real skating - they're tricks - and that spins and footwork are more expressive of what skating really is about. In that sense, with footwork, edging, choreography, and expression, dance may actually be considered the purest form of skating. It's not going to wow you with jumps, but it's intricate, and certainly more difficult than it appears.

#43 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (Fratboy @ Feb 21 2010, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, that's what a compulsory routine is. Everybody does the same thing, the same way. That's what the school figures were, but were eliminated from competition due to pressure from the television networks and the public who didn't understand how someone could lead after compulsories, skate poor original and free programs and still win.

You can argue that the jumps aren't real skating - they're tricks - and that spins and footwork are more expressive of what skating really is about. In that sense, with footwork, edging, choreography, and expression, dance may actually be considered the purest form of skating. It's not going to wow you with jumps, but it's intricate, and certainly more difficult than it appears.


Indeed. The fact that Lysacek won the gold bodes well for Yuna Kim, as she's a more polished, complete, and graceful skater than any of her competitors. Early news out of Kim's (secretive and well-guarded -- and off athlete's campus) camp is that she's been relaxed and fluid in her early practices.

#44 Hendu's Gait


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Posted 22 February 2010 - 10:30 PM

QUOTE (SeoulSoxFan @ Feb 20 2010, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
truly enjoyed Lysacek's performances on and off the rink.



If you have a Liukin video, please share.

Edited by Hendu's Gait, 23 February 2010 - 12:07 AM.


#45 SeoulSoxFan


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Posted 22 February 2010 - 10:47 PM

So how popular is Yuna Kim in Korea? The only athlete to have her own "special" page on Daum (largest portal site in Kor):

http://sports.media....0...g&nil_id=10

#46 Fratboy


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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:04 AM

For posterity, my comments from the Live thread:

Belbin and Agosto were robbed.

The use of the ropes to assist the Russians in their lifts and moves was an abomination. B/A and D/S score the SAME on their elements, and D/S soundly beat them on program components, i.e., the artistic.

There is NO FUCKING WAY they should have won the elements. Their twizzles were sloppy, and the program was simply not put together well. Frankly, I hated it.

I wasn't thrilled with B/A's program either. It lacked passion and tempo, and they had mistakes too, but their program was much cleaner than D/S's, enough to the point they should have gotten the bronze.

Ice Dancing judging is the absolute worst.

That said, they got the Gold and Silver medals correct. V/M and D/W were miles ahead of everybody else. D/W are future OGM winners, and good for the Canadians.

#47 Hendu's Gait


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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:07 AM

MZ and IS are clearly the best in the business.

Frat, did B/A drop them or did MZ/IS drop B/A? Who dropped who?

#48 Hendu's Gait


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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:08 AM

Looking forward to the Gala. Should be great this year.

#49 Fratboy


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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE (Hendu's Gait @ Feb 23 2010, 12:07 AM) <{<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
MZ and IS are clearly the best in the business.

Frat, did B/A drop them or did MZ/IS drop B/A? Who dropped who?

From what I read, B/A dropped them. Belbin/Agosto, Virtue/Moir, and Davis/White all used to train at the same club in Michigan. I'm unsure what led to them making the change, but they lost something this season. They've been extremely vibrant in the past, but looked shockingly dull at Nationals and now, the Olympics. I think they made a mistake.

#50 gaelgirl


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Posted 23 February 2010 - 03:04 AM

Just finished up here on the West Coast. I agree, Belbin & Agosto just don't look at good this year (from what I've seen) as they did in the past. I don't know what it was. Maybe they sort of checked out mentally a bit because they're retiring and they know the younger team is getting the results or they just don't have the same chemistry together off the ice.

The Russians should have lost for the horrible hair/facial hair on the dude alone, but the costuming issues were a huge problem. The Aussie dance was fucked up, and the ropes in the free skate are really straining the rules of fairness in the sport. Politics, though... I think B&A knew that they had almost no chance to medal unless one of the other two North American teams fucked up. I mean, they *lost* points to the Russians in the free skate, and the Russian program wasn't so much better that they deserved to gain on Belbin/Agosto. They looked disappointed in the results, but surprisingly good-natured.

Maybe B&A dropped the coaches because they, too, were more focused on the younger teams and B&A wanted someone who would be more devoted to them? I don't think it's too out of the question.

Ice Dancing is kinda fucked in scoring. I think Apolo Ohno and the chick from Dancing with the Stars should team up and train for the next Olympics. That would be interesting.