80 replies to this topic

[bgo544]

Very surprised by that decision - it seemed like if anything, the Chinese skater initiated the contact. The Korean skater seemed to have established inside position.

[shawnrbu]

Looked like an iffy call. I wish the judge could use some discretion and simply award South Korea Silver because it was obvious they were a Top 2 relay team. The U.S. team did nothing to earn that bronze except get dominated and have good fortune.

[DukeSox]

Looked like an iffy call. I wish the judge could use some discretion and simply award South Korea Silver because it was obvious they were a Top 2 relay team. The U.S. team did nothing to earn that bronze except get dominated and have good fortune.

USA! USA!

[Fred not Lynn]

Very surprised by that decision - it seemed like if anything, the Chinese skater initiated the contact. The Korean skater seemed to have established inside position.

I was there. I told the guy sitting next to me before the race; "US will fall behind, and get bronze when one of the teams trying to win either falls or gets disqualified". When the incident occurred, I turned to him and said, "There's the American bronze".

I imagine they had to try to "sell it" by celebrating, making it maybe harder for the referee to make the correct call - but I knew that the Korean girls should really have waited until the result was official to wave their flags. A situation, in fact identical to when Ohno won his first Gold in 2002.

It was, by the way, the correct call under the rules of short track. After yesterday, the Koreans should know that the rules and the referee giveth, and the rules and the referee taketh away.

The U.S. team did nothing to earn that bronze except get dominated and have good fortune.

You overlook the small matter of qualifying FOR the final, after having qualified to be one of only 8 teams in the Olympics at all.

Edited by Fred not Lynn, 25 February 2010 - 01:47 AM.

[PaulinMyrBch]

I thought the American girls got impeded by an skater in front of them on an exchange push. Looked like the skater didn't do much to peel off to the right, although I don't know the rule there. It clearly was the reason the American team lost the speed when they went down 1/4 lap. Not sure it would make much difference in the end.

What is the rule on the Korean/China DQ. Did they DQ her for the skate contact or because she appeared to extend her arm to clear the turn? I know what I was looking at and one replay angle looked worse than the other, but what is the actual rule there?

[Fred not Lynn]

I thought the American girls got impeded by an skater in front of them on an exchange push. Looked like the skater didn't do much to peel off to the right, although I don't know the rule there. It clearly was the reason the American team lost the speed when they went down 1/4 lap. Not sure it would make much difference in the end.

What is the rule on the Korean/China DQ. Did they DQ her for the skate contact or because she appeared to extend her arm to clear the turn? I know what I was looking at and one replay angle looked worse than the other, but what is the actual rule there?

The American team lost ground because Alison Baver was noticeably slower - and the others had to go too hard to soon to catch up after her leg each time. On the DQ; The Korean tried to pass on the inside and just ran out of room.

[SeoulSoxFan]

The American team lost ground because Alison Baver was noticeably slower - and the others had to go too hard to soon to catch up after her leg each time. On the DQ; The Korean tried to pass on the inside and just ran out of room.

Absolutely not. Korean skater already had passed the Chinese skater and had the inside track without impediment. That's not against the rules.

Completely robbery - and lo and behold, the same Australian judge who started the whole Ohno-Kor controversy by DQ'ing Kim years ago. This fucker should never be a referee in an international competition. What an abomination.

Per ESPN:

Choi pointed out that women's referee Jim Hewish of Australia was the same official who disqualified South Korea's Kim Dong-sung to give Apolo Anton Ohno his first career gold medal at the 2002 Salt Lake City Games.

Asked if he thought Hewish had a grudge against the South Koreans, Choi answered sharply, "No comment."

Andy Gabel of NBC agrees:
http://www.nbcolympi...short track day

And Yahoo! blog:

If the disqualification of Kim Dong-Sung in 2002 is any indication, South Koreans will be irate with the decision. According to Olympic historian David Wallechinsky, in the hours after Kim's DQ, his fans flooded IOC servers with 16,000 angry emails protesting the call. It certainly won't help matters that the ref who disqualified Kim eight years ago was the same ref who made the fateful decision Wednesday in Vancouver.

Yes, South Korea, Jim Hewish did it to you again. The chief referee was in a precarious situation though. The offending bump was obvious, but it wasn't clear that it should lead to a disqualification. Relays tend to be judged a little looser than regular short track events, so there was thought that Hewish might let the contact go. But after three minutes of deliberation, he decided that the bump had impeded China's progress.

Edited by SeoulSoxFan, 25 February 2010 - 01:35 PM.

[Fred not Lynn]

Absolutely not. Korean skater already had passed the Chinese skater and had the inside track without impediment. That's not against the rules.

Completely robbery - and lo and behold, the same Australian judge who started the whole Ohno-Kor controversy by DQ'ing Kim years ago. This fucker should never be a referee in an international competition. What an abomination.

It was a bad pass - a close one, and a close call...but it signifigantly made a difference in the race outcome. It's a flaw in the rules that they can't just award the Koreans the 2nd place they deserved. Liek I said before, though...if a Korean fan is going to whine too loud about being robbed, Sven Kramer would like a word with you.

Kind of awkward, of course, for Andy Gabel to criticize the referees. If he's got a real problem he should take it up with the dude who oversees the technical elements of short track for ISU and assigns the referees - the chair of the ISU short track technical committee....Mr Andrew Gabel of the United States.

Edited by Fred not Lynn, 25 February 2010 - 02:31 PM.

[SeoulSoxFan]

It was a bad pass - a close one, and a close call...but it signifigantly made a difference in the race outcome. It's a flaw in the rules that they can't just award the Koreans the 2nd place they deserved. Liek I said before, though...if a Korean fan is going to whine too loud about being robbed, Sven Kramer would like a word with you.

Kind of awkward, of course, for Andy Gabel to criticize the referees. If he's got a real problem he should take it up with the dude who oversees the technical elements of short track for ISU and assigns the referees - the chair of the ISU short track technical committee....Mr Andrew Gabel of the United States.

That's what I don't agree - Korean skater had position on the inside and had already passed Lin the Chinese skater. Lin was the one that was on the outside cutting in. I do agree, obviously, that it had a significant impact on the outcome, but the Korean team deserved the gold, as it is not the correct ruling.

Of course, no one disagrees that Lee was the beneficiary of Kramer's "gaffe", but there's hardly any controversy there. Lee didn't in any way involved in the fateful decision by Kemper to have him take the wrong lane. Simply an unrelated case.

But all in all that's the sport of short track. Korean women still have the 1000m to compete in - hopefully they'll bring back a gold.

[Fred not Lynn]

That's what I don't agree - Korean skater had position on the inside and had already passed Lin the Chinese skater. Lin was the one that was on the outside cutting in. I do agree, obviously, that it had a significant impact on the outcome, but the Korean team deserved the gold, as it is not the correct ruling.

Chinese skater was on the outside setting up the turn taking the normal path to the apex. You're allowed that route - if another skater is passing on the inside and doesn't make it by in time, they're "at fault" for the infraction.

It was a texbook example of "impedeing" or "charging the block" as they used to call it - although the amplitude of the infraction was questionable, especially as Andy noted, in the relay where typically some things are let go. I guess the deciding factor was when in the race it occured - and in this case, it was in the final "racing" laps -- the two teams were going balls out against each other and it made the difference. Like I said, in a perfect world, the infraction results in relegation of the Korean team to 2nd...but that's not the way the rules are written.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Chinese skater was on the outside setting up the turn taking the normal path to the apex. You're allowed that route - if another skater is passing on the inside and doesn't make it by in time, they're "at fault" for the infraction.

It was a texbook example of "impedeing" or "charging the block" as they used to call it - although the amplitude of the infraction was questionable, especially as Andy noted, in the relay where typically some things are let go. I guess the deciding factor was when in the race it occured - and in this case, it was in the final "racing" laps -- the two teams were going balls out against each other and it made the difference. Like I said, in a perfect world, the infraction results in relegation of the Korean team to 2nd...but that's not the way the rules are written.

I just see it very differently (no surprise, eh?) Not only the impediment not cut-and-clear, the Chinese skater slowed down due to their skates touching resulting in Lin losing her balance - which is not a violation.

In any case, there's 0% of this being overturned and the Korean women's team is in verge of not winning any gold for the first time ever, with only the individual 1000m to go.

[Fred not Lynn]

the Chinese skater slowed down due to their skates touching

Skates touching is contact, which was caused by the Korean skater not completing the pass -- which IS an infraction. I saw it as a potential DQ the moment it happened.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Skates touching is contact, which was caused by the Korean skater not completing the pass -- which IS an infraction. I saw it as a potential DQ the moment it happened.

You must be looking at a different race. Unintentional touching of the skates is not an infraction. And the Korean skater not only completed the pass, she had positioned on the inside track (btw, the DQ was based on impediment and not skates touching).

In fact, the Korean skater was pushed off in the INSIDE track and had the edge going into the turn, while the Chinese pair had the outside and cut in too early.

When I saw it I didn't think much of it at all - completely shocked that that was a DQ, and frankly, many experts feel the same.

Doesn't help that Hewish was involved in no less than 6 Korean DQs in international competition finals since 2002 - by far more than any judge working in the game.

Can't forget that this f*cker was also suspended for 2 full years after the Kim-Ohno incident, and can't have too many Koreans on his Xmas list. To add insult to injury, the assistant judge who ruled that Kim hit Lin in the face just happened to be Chinese - to say objectivity was in doubt is an understatement.

Edited by SeoulSoxFan, 25 February 2010 - 10:56 PM.

[gaelgirl]

Can't forget that this f*cker was also suspended for 2 full years after the Kim-Ohno incident, and can't have too many Koreans on his Xmas list. To add insult to injury, the assistant judge who ruled that Kim hit Lin in the face just happened to be Chinese - to say objectivity was in doubt is an understatement.

Not to wade into a conversation about subtle rules I don't understand, but how is the chick getting hit in the face a debatable event? She was, indeed, hit in the face. Is there more to the ruling than us seeing it? Like, does it have to happen and impede progress in some way? I don't know anything about the sport, but she clearly got hit. I am just confused here.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Not to wade into a conversation about subtle rules I don't understand, but how is the chick getting hit in the face a debatable event? She was, indeed, hit in the face. Is there more to the ruling than us seeing it? Like, does it have to happen and impede progress in some way? I don't know anything about the sport, but she clearly got hit. I am just confused here.

gaelgal, if we counted every bump that is caused by the natural swinging of the arms it wouldn't be short track. If you watch the replay it was at worst something that happens at every race, without any intention (which is the spirit of the rules.)

The blood that some pointed out actually happened after the race was over, when Lin was caught by Wang Meng's blade as she was going over the side wall.

[Chemistry Schmemistry]

Well, he just put it out there, didn't he?

Basically Canadian ref, Canadian skater, home ice. No matter that the guy was upright until Ohno's hand was on his hip.

Whiny bitch.

[PaulinMyrBch]

I for one, like it when athletes actually answer the questions. Collinsworth asks good questions and instead of the best man won, gotta try harder, blah, blah, blah bullshit we usually get, Ohno actually answers the questions. Partially because he doesn't have a league, commish, GM, coach, network, or sponser that's going to reprimand him for his answers.

What did he basically say? Did you push him - No. Are you surprised with the DQ - Not really, canadian skater, canadian judge, Canadian soil. And he added he needs to skate faster. I'm not crazy about sour grapes from athletes, but at least he spoke his mind.

[SeoulSoxFan]

I for one, like it when athletes actually answer the questions. Collinsworth asks good questions and instead of the best man won, gotta try harder, blah, blah, blah bullshit we usually get, Ohno actually answers the questions. Partially because he doesn't have a league, commish, GM, coach, network, or sponser that's going to reprimand him for his answers.

What did he basically say? Did you push him - No. Are you surprised with the DQ - Not really, canadian skater, canadian judge, Canadian soil. And he added he needs to skate faster. I'm not crazy about sour grapes from athletes, but at least he spoke his mind.

He gets credit for speaking his mind. The whiny bitch part comes when he complains about everyone else pushing, but when it's him it's the judges.

I think he pushed the skater in front of him KNOWING that he's fourth, then get skaters ahead of him to spill out and steal another medal. Fuck Ohno - he cost Korea another gold with that douche move and I'll be glad to see this dude out of the Olympics finally.

[JimD]

I think he pushed the skater in front of him KNOWING that he's fourth, then get skaters ahead of him to spill out and steal another medal. Fuck Ohno - he cost Korea another gold with that douche move and I'll be glad to see this dude out of the Olympics finally.

Check the replay - Hamelin interfered and likely stole the gold from Korea.

Edited by JimD, 27 February 2010 - 01:41 AM.

[Sausage in Section 17]

[quote name='JimD' date='Feb 26 2010, 10:40 PM' post='2829250']
Check the replay - Hamelin interfered and likely stole the gold from Korea.

It must be so frustrating to participate in a sport that relies so much on these replay decisions. This shit happens in (it seems) about half the races they run. I guess you could say that Hamelin and the Korean each seemed to have some minor contact with the other, so they sort of cancel each other out. The contact Ohno made appeared to be somewhat more initiated by him, so I can accept that one a little more easily. Plus, he was in 4th the whole way.

Edited by Sausage in Section 17, 27 February 2010 - 01:58 AM.

[SeoulSoxFan]

Check the replay - Hamelin interfered and likely stole the gold from Korea.

Saw the replay - I thought the domino started when Ohno put his hand on the 3rd place skater, which caused Hamelin to fall then Sung. But I must say Sung didn't have the cleanest stance rounding the corner either. If he did, he may have had a bit more space and enough to survive Hamelin's (I think unintentional) push.

[PaulinMyrBch]

From what I can tell watching for 2 -3 hours every 4 years is you can see different things everytime you look. To think that one judge might see it one way and another see it another seems pretty obvious. I'm not an expert, but I change my mind every time they show a different angle.

What's clear in this sport is you've got absolutely no reason not to attempt something crazy if you're sitting in 4th going into the last lap. Three things can happen.

1. You get around clean and move up spots
2. You don't get around clean, people crash, you're not DQ'd, and you move up a bunch of spots.
3. You don't get around clean, people crash, your DQ'd, and your image doesn't take much of a hit for smashing up a whole race because that's the "nature" of short track. Plus, unlike Nascar you don't have a 200K repair bill every time you do something stupid.

So crazy passes are an odds play, love it.

[Fred not Lynn]

Here's the fundamental problem; The one-race one-medal model that Olympic Short Track operates on is flawed. The guy sitting 4th in the Olympic Final has ZERO disincentive to make a dangerous move. There are no points going to 4th, no overall consequence against "going for it". Ohno, sitting 4th, really had no move other than to bulldoze his way wherever he could go - which is exactly what he did.

The Korean, by the way, fell all on his own. Was he distracted by the commotion behind him, perhaps - but delaing with that is a short track skill a guy needs to have. Any incidental contact between Him and Hamelin was after he was on the way down, and initiated by the Korean as he lost control.

The way Olympic Short Track SHOULD work is like this; Skaters compete in 500m, 1000m and 1500m - with points to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. Then the top 6 (naybe 8) point scorers skate a 3000m. This is the format for the World Championship each year and it works fine. In that format, a guy out of the medals in a particular distance still needs to skate clean to keep his 4th place points.

[Sprowl]

The Japanese Women's Team Pursuit members look like Mighty Morphin Power Rangers in gold and black. I'm not sure it's the look Browndog prefers, but there's definitely some potential for hot team action.

[shawnrbu]

What were the results of women's team pursuit? I bailed on NBC when they had Tom Brokaw narrate something for over an hour. I don't want to risk looking it up online because the men's results will be spoiled.

[The Four Peters]

German women beat the Japanese by .03 seconds. Great finish.

[shawnrbu]

German women beat the Japanese by .03 seconds. Great finish.

Wow, what a day for the German ladies. Did NBC show US/Poland for the Bronze or did it get bumped to their primetime broadcast?

[Rocco Graziosa]

German women beat the Japanese by .03 seconds. Great finish.

It was a great finish but in that replay I could have sworn I saw the Japanese finish first by a hair. Anyone else see this?

[StupendousMan]

Wow, what a day for the German ladies. Did NBC show US/Poland for the Bronze or did it get bumped to their primetime broadcast?

NBC did show the bronze-medal race, in which the US was in good shape until the final lap, when their third skater just ran out of gas.

I did see NBC's close-up view of the gold-medal match, and it appeared to me that Germany _did_ just barely get the third skater's skate across befire Japan -- but only by two inches or so.

[JimD]

I don't understand how a competitor can be considered to have 'finished' a race if they fall down and are not on their skates (re: the Germany-U.S. womens relay).

[Fred not Lynn]

I don't understand how a competitor can be considered to have 'finished' a race if they fall down and are not on their skates (re: the Germany-U.S. womens relay).

The rule is that the time is recorded when the first part of the skate blade crosses the finish line. At this time, there's no restriction on elevation - in that the blade could be kicked higer than ice level. This is leading to problems in the individual races where skaters are "kicking out" and putting the blade across the line above the beam of light used to record the electronic time. This is why many times are adjusted manually by officials after viewing the photo-finish.

I expect a rule change saying the skate must cross the line less than one-inch from the ice, or on the ice to deal with this.